View Full Version : Spare AR parts quality?
Hey guys,
I wanted to get spare springs, detents, etc. I was going to pick up colt parts from Brownells, but they're like $2 each. I know that White Oak Armament sells the same thing for like 40-50 cents.
Any noticeable quality differences? I don't think Colt manufactures these, so.
thanks.
Spares are spares. Just buy what you can afford.
Not all parts are the same. Take a lot at a Colt extractor spring vs most others if you doubt me. If you are looking for generic parts, buying a couple LPK is a great way to do it. You pay less for the parts, and get parts you might not need until a later date.
titsonritz
11-19-17, 20:00
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?201813-Good-LPK&p=2563995#post2563995
Not all parts are the same. Take a lot at a Colt extractor spring vs most others if you doubt me. If you are looking for generic parts, buying a couple LPK is a great way to do it. You pay less for the parts, and get parts you might not need until a later date.
Yeah, I took up Mistwolf on his advice and picked up 3 Colt copper springs from Brownells. I think I have some sprinco 5-coils around somewhere too. I realize these springs are worth the extra cost.
However, concerning takedown springs, detents, mag springs, and alike specifically. Is it worth paying 4x the cost?
My previous go to LPK was CMMG, but that was before joining this forum. Now, I've been scarred off a bit. Moreover, their CS never emailed me back, so that rubbed me the wrong way. I was trying to avoid buying whole LPKs when I usually get different takedowns, safeties, triggers, trigger guards, and grips. Seems like a lot of wasted parts that just go into a bin.
titsonritz
11-19-17, 21:00
I was trying to avoid buying whole LPKs when I usually get different takedowns, safeties, triggers, trigger guards, and grips. Seems like a lot of wasted parts that just go into a bin.
Follow the links I posted.
RobertTheTexan
11-19-17, 21:52
Spares are spares. Just buy what you can afford.
Rb,
I don’t mean to be offensive, but following this advice is just as bad as believing “mil spec is mil spec”. While it is a common saying, especially at TOS, nothing could be further from the truth.
In my world my spares are not just replacements for worn parts and the occasional broken part, but more often not they are used in a build. I’ve built quite a few AR’s and I’ve “modernized” or upgraded a few also and here is truth I have learned:
Not all parts are created equal. It’s just that simple. Also here is another truth:
“Perceived value does not always equal realized value.”
What this means is that you really need to do your due diligence and research what parts are machined with high quality metals and what parts are not. What parts are consistent in spec, and what manufacturers have parts all over the place. I’ve seen both sides of that coin.
I’ve tried many LPK’s. I’ve seen castle nuts that were value priced act like it and my spanner wrench slip out and round out the notches. I’ve seen the same with mil spec barrel nuts. It wasn’t alway the most expensive that was the best either. Though usually there is a cost associated with using quality steel, and there is alway a cost associated with having QA analysts testing parts before they roll out to the end user or whomever.
That’s what makes it so tricky! Sometimes you really are paying for popularity or what happens to be the latest buzz word, or you are paying for perceived value.
RobertTheTexan
11-19-17, 21:57
Hey guys,
I wanted to get spare springs, detents, etc. I was going to pick up colt parts from Brownells, but they're like $2 each. I know that White Oak Armament sells the same thing for like 40-50 cents.
Any noticeable quality differences? I don't think Colt manufactures these, so.
thanks.
I buy my spring kits from DSG Arms and haven’t ever had an issue with them. I rarely buy full LPK’s any longer, but buy the detente and springs, etc. when needed.
I use this for my small parts:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004X14L/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_LjLeAbP3TH4HN
Works amazingly well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Duffy suggested I try these safety detents on a safety I didn't like the feel of. Been buying them ever since. Notice it says 'Machined from quality stainless steel by KNS Precision, Inc. in Texas' so you know who made them.
https://knsprecisioninc.com/gun-parts-and-accessories/kns-products/safety-detent.html
https://knsprecisioninc.com/spare-repl-parts/pivot-takedown-detent.html
Just saw this:
https://knsprecisioninc.com/spare-repl-parts/kns-precision-s-turned-lower-parts-kit.html
CMMG, SCIONICS, DSG ARMS, i have even used some items from DS arms
tango-papa
11-20-17, 08:53
Hey guys,
I wanted to get spare springs, detents, etc. I was going to pick up colt parts from Brownells, but they're like $2 each. I know that White Oak Armament sells the same thing for like 40-50 cents.
Any noticeable quality differences? I don't think Colt manufactures these, so.
thanks.
Sionics has a nice selection of parts as well as bundled "kits".
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/15-parts-accessories?id_category=15&n=32
tp
Duffy suggested I try these safety detents on a safety I didn't like the feel of. Been buying them ever since. Notice it says 'Machined from quality stainless steel by KNS Precision, Inc. in Texas' so you know who made them.
https://knsprecisioninc.com/gun-parts-and-accessories/kns-products/safety-detent.html
https://knsprecisioninc.com/spare-repl-parts/pivot-takedown-detent.html
Just saw this:
https://knsprecisioninc.com/spare-repl-parts/kns-precision-s-turned-lower-parts-kit.html
I'm not that familiar with OEM manufactures, so I wouldn't really infer who made them. Maybe you could put it bluntly haha.
I see that their detents are nitride. That's cool. I'm not sure how that would compare to what I am guessing is TiN on the detents that came with my CMMG lpk/Battle Arms takedown pins. I like nitride and I'm surprised more parts are just standard nitride like castle nuts, bolt catch, magazine release, etc.
Sionics has a nice selection of parts as well as bundled "kits".
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/15-parts-accessories?id_category=15&n=32
tp
Yeah, I would love to give Sionics some business. However, once you factor in shipping cost it is a $3 difference between getting Sionics springs/detents/roll pins and all Colt from Brownells -without a coupon. I could call them up and see if there is any difference between the parts, as I do not know what the mil-spec is for detents, springs, etc.
Moreover, a direct comparison of Sionics/Colt to WOA reveals a 3-4x price difference. No one seems to list specs for the detents/springs so I am just flying blind on if they are directly comparable. If there is one thing this forum did to me, it's that it made me paranoid about differences in quality between companies.
I seem to have to rely on trust of a company. For instance, I used the takedown springs included with my B.A.D. enhanced takedown pins (and they sell them separately) and I assume the quality of those springs is on par with Colt/Sionics just because the company puts out quality parts.
RobertTheTexan
11-20-17, 09:55
Yeah, I would love to give Sionics some business. However, once you factor in shipping cost it is a $3 difference between getting Sionics springs/detents/roll pins and all Colt from Brownells -without a coupon. I could call them up and see if there is any difference between the parts, as I do not know what the mil-spec is for detents, springs, etc.
Moreover, a direct comparison of Sionics/Colt to WOA reveals a 3-4x price difference. No one seems to list specs for the detents/springs so I am just flying blind on if they are directly comparable. If there is one thing this forum did to me, it's that it made me paranoid about differences in quality between companies.
I seem to have to rely on trust of a company. For instance, I used the takedown springs included with my B.A.D. enhanced takedown pins (and they sell them separately) and I assume the quality of those springs is on par with Colt/Sionics just because the company puts out quality parts.
Are you prior service? Sionics offers a military discount to veterans, first responders. At least in Texas, mil discounts makes up for sales tax, but either way I’m thankful for them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are you prior service? Sionics offers a military discount to veterans, first responders. At least in Texas, mil discounts makes up for sales tax, but either way I’m thankful for them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nope. Regular guy. In fact, my best friend who is the Army thought it was hilarious to get me a shirt that says "Hello, my name is Jodie." And I refuse to wear it out of fear of getting my ass beat. Most of my friends/family is, but they all (especially my Dad) dissuaded me. We'll see how it works out though. I got to lose a ton of weight if I ever wanted to be mil/cop.
Rb,
I don’t mean to be offensive, but following this advice is just as bad as believing “mil spec is mil spec”. While it is a common saying, especially at TOS, nothing could be further from the truth.
In my world my spares are not just replacements for worn parts and the occasional broken part, but more often not they are used in a build. I’ve built quite a few AR’s and I’ve “modernized” or upgraded a few also and here is truth I have learned:
Not all parts are created equal. It’s just that simple. Also here is another truth:
“Perceived value does not always equal realized value.”
What this means is that you really need to do your due diligence and research what parts are machined with high quality metals and what parts are not. What parts are consistent in spec, and what manufacturers have parts all over the place. I’ve seen both sides of that coin.
I’ve tried many LPK’s. I’ve seen castle nuts that were value priced act like it and my spanner wrench slip out and round out the notches. I’ve seen the same with mil spec barrel nuts. It wasn’t alway the most expensive that was the best either. Though usually there is a cost associated with using quality steel, and there is alway a cost associated with having QA analysts testing parts before they roll out to the end user or whomever.
That’s what makes it so tricky! Sometimes you really are paying for popularity or what happens to be the latest buzz word, or you are paying for perceived value.
You're preaching to the choir, man. Not even gonna waste my time typing out a lengthy response.
To the OP, just buy what you can afford. The statistical likelihood that you're gonna actually need a spare detent or takedown spring? Not very high. And if you do, and you use something that's not-Colt, so what? Is your gun going to magically stop functioning? No. It'll be just fine until you're able to replace it with a Colt (or whatever brand) part, if that satisfies your OCD.
You guys are overthinking this shit, but hey by all means, if you wanna pay 400% more for a spare, that's your money--you're free to spend it how you want.
RobertTheTexan
11-20-17, 10:22
Nope. Regular guy. In fact, my best friend who is the Army thought it was hilarious to get me a shirt that says "Hello, my name is Jodie." And I refuse to wear it out of fear of getting my ass beat. Most of my friends/family is, but they all (especially my Dad) dissuaded me. We'll see how it works out though. I got to lose a ton of weight if I ever wanted to be mil/cop.
Dude, you totally need to wear that. You’ll get more crack-ups than ass whippings.
I’m pretty sure anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I tend to agree with ^Rb. I'm having a hard time believing there is a big difference (if any) between a 50 cent detent from WOA and a $2 detent from Colt/Sionics.
However, is there any resource for what metals/specs the small receiver parts should be made to?
Dude, you totally need to wear that. You’ll get more crack-ups than ass whippings.
I’m pretty sure anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd be funny either way lol.
I'm not that familiar with OEM manufactures, so I wouldn't really infer who made them. Maybe you could put it bluntly haha.
The batch I bought a couple years ago weren't nitrided. All I know is they improved the safety's function, so I am going to stick with them.
In fact, I just ordered 3 of these to try out: https://knsprecisioninc.com/spare-repl-parts/kns-precision-inc-bolt-catch-retaining-pin.html
rocket 442
11-20-17, 11:13
It looks like the last PSA lpk's I've installed when helping friends assemble lowers it's a given that the detente all need replaced because they're not to spec. Takedown pins tend to be hard to push out��*♂️. Pay the extra for known quality &
Save the aggravation.
I tend to agree with ^Rb. I'm having a hard time believing there is a big difference (if any) between a 50 cent detent from WOA and a $2 detent from Colt/Sionics.
However, is there any resource for what metals/specs the small receiver parts should be made to?
Nah, you're missing my point. There **IS** a difference between Colt LPK's and others, but under the circumstances where you'd actually need a spare, I doubt the difference would matter all that much and it wouldn't render your gun inoperable.
Example:
You have a Colt LE6920 (everything works great), and you have a shoot-day/course/whatever coming up. You wanna try this new-fangled A5 buffer system and Magpul grip; so you go to swap out the parts...
SHIT!!! You lose your safety detent and the spring/detent for your end plate. "But wait!! I have some spares.... oh no..... it's just some random spare I got off Brownells for 25 cents--not Colt brand."
"I guess I'll cancel my shoot-day/course because I can't stomach the idea of non-Colt detents/springs being in my lower!" << SAID NOBODY EVER
Alright. How do I go about accessing the difference between a Colt takedown detent and this one:
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/lower-parts/lower-receiver-parts/takedown-pivot-pin-detent.html
What questions do I need to ask of the respective companies?
I cannot think where the quality of detent pins, takedown pins and related springs would affect function of an AR. But I can see where in the long term they can be a constant source of annoyance. I have a set of take down pins that have a sloppy fit and sometimes they don't line up like they should when reassembling the two halves. You gotta know the secret handshake.
When pricing small parts, keep in mind cost of shipping. Sometimes the more expensive parts are cheaper after adding the cost of shipping. Buy from a company you can have confidence in. WOA is one of those companies. Another thing to keep in mind- What's the difference going to matter if you pay $10 for a few spares, or $40, after you shoot up a couple of thousand rounds of ammo?
In my opinion, the most important spare you can buy is a complete BCG. That's what's most likely to stop the rifle and having a spare makes replacement easy.
If you want to get spare smalls, take a look at a kit like this
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/lower-parts-kits/ar-15-m16-lower-spring-kit-prod57595.aspx
When pricing small parts, keep in mind cost of shipping. Sometimes the more expensive parts are cheaper after adding the cost of shipping. Buy from a company you can have confidence in. WOA is one of those companies. Another thing to keep in mind- What's the difference going to matter if you pay $10 for a few spares, or $40, after you shoot up a couple of thousand rounds of ammo?
Hey Mistwolf. First of all, I picked up the AR15M4 Colt extractors -one for each of my rifle bcg. I will work on getting a spare bcg.
I'm a bit confused on whether you think WOA is a quality company you can have confidence in or company that sells cheap parts?
Also, I hear mixed things about CMMG. I used their LPK on my rifles and didn't have any complaints. I ended up using all the springs/detents that came with my other parts like my safety selectors, takedowns, etc. I don't know if they're MIM or not - I emailed them that question, but they never got back to me.
titsonritz
11-20-17, 14:08
Nah, you're missing my point. There **IS** a difference between Colt LPK's and others, but under the circumstances where you'd actually need a spare, I doubt the difference would matter all that much and it wouldn't render your gun inoperable.
Example:
You have a Colt LE6920 (everything works great), and you have a shoot-day/course/whatever coming up. You wanna try this new-fangled A5 buffer system and Magpul grip; so you go to swap out the parts...
SHIT!!! You lose your safety detent and the spring/detent for your end plate. "But wait!! I have some spares.... oh no..... it's just some random spare I got off Brownells for 25 cents--not Colt brand."
"I guess I'll cancel my shoot-day/course because I can't stomach the idea of non-Colt detents/springs being in my lower!" << SAID NOBODY EVER
Keep in mind the selector/safety spring in the same as the ejector spring, that last thing I want is an el-cheap-o spring in my spare parts box that has the potential to find it's way into my bolt.
Keep in mind the selector/safety spring in the same as the ejector spring, that last thing I want is an el-cheap-o spring in my spare parts box that has the potential to find it's way into my bolt.
I didn't know that. Makes sense now that I stop and think about it.
Hey Mistwolf. First of all, I picked up the AR15M4 Colt extractors -one for each of my rifle bcg. I will work on getting a spare bcg.
I'm a bit confused on whether you think WOA is a quality company you can have confidence in or company that sells cheap parts?
Also, I hear mixed things about CMMG. I used their LPK on my rifles and didn't have any complaints. I ended up using all the springs/detents that came with my other parts like my safety selectors, takedowns, etc. I don't know if they're MIM or not - I emailed them that question, but they never got back to me.
I think you can have confidence in the WOA small parts. They work to keep their customers satisfied. They cater to National Match competitors, a group of shooters who can be very particular about equipment. I have no personal experience with WOA but they get good recommendations from shooters who do.
I don't think you'll have problems with the CMMG kit, but I cannot stay you won't. I used it as an example of a small parts kit that would cover what you're looking for.
It's good that you're thinking ahead, but don't get wrapped around the axle about small parts. It's good to have spares, but at this point it's a tertiary concern. Get ammo and mags and go shoot. Get a spare BCG. When you get a chance, pick up a few small spares and a parts box to kit them in. Spend less time sweating the small stuff.
Ok. Why is mil spec not mil spec? Either a part is manufactured to military specifications or it is not. And it follows that if Colt manufactures a part that is up to military specifications and Company x manufactures the same part to military specifications then one part is as good as the other. That's the whole point of military specifications. That's the whole point of interchangeability of parts. When the Army rebuilds a rifle it does so from parts meeting military specifications regardless of the manufacturer of that part.
Ok. Why is mil spec not mil spec? Either a part is manufactured to military specifications or it is not. And it follows that if Colt manufactures a part that is up to military specifications and Company x manufactures the same part to military specifications then one part is as good as the other. That's the whole point of military specifications. That's the whole point of interchangeability of parts. When the Army rebuilds a rifle it does so from parts meeting military specifications regardless of the manufacturer of that part.
One problem is that "mil spec" means different things to different people. When most people/companies use the term "mil spec", it usually does not mean 100% mil spec, just sort of mil spec.
One example is buffer tubes. The term mil spec buffer tube is used frequently, but it usually just means it has a mil spec diameter. As many people have seen, there are a lot of different "mil spec" buffer tubes being sold.
I agree that there is a significant difference in the quality of many small (and large) AR parts. When I find something I like, I try to stock up on it if it's not too expensive.
One very frustrating thing is buying the same part from the same retailer at different times, and getting slightly (but noticeably) different parts.
Joe Mamma
I think you can have confidence in the WOA small parts. They work to keep their customers satisfied. They cater to National Match competitors, a group of shooters who can be very particular about equipment. I have no personal experience with WOA but they get good recommendations from shooters who do.
I've bought WOA parts kits with ALG triggers in them. Most I know feel they are a solid company, pretty strong following. They'll tell you whose parts they use. Or did when I called.
And I've had Colt packaged Delta ring assembly from Brownells come in with rust on the steel parts. Should have sent it back, but was pissed and did not want to wait. Just lubed it all up and installed it. (Was mainly the spring)
Point being: you can have issues even with Colt small parts from brownells.
I'd probably see if White Oak will sell you a completion lower part kit. (Minus FCG)
titsonritz
11-21-17, 10:47
I'd probably see if White Oak will sell you a completion lower part kit. (Minus FCG)
They will.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/lower-parts/lower-parts-kits.html
Ok. Why is mil spec not mil spec? Either a part is manufactured to military specifications or it is not. And it follows that if Colt manufactures a part that is up to military specifications and Company x manufactures the same part to military specifications then one part is as good as the other. That's the whole point of military specifications. That's the whole point of interchangeability of parts. When the Army rebuilds a rifle it does so from parts meeting military specifications regardless of the manufacturer of that part.
Real milspec is certificated and traceable. If there is a problem with a certificated milspec part, an investigator can follow the paper trail showing how the part or assembly was made and if approved processes were followed. A company may claim their parts are made to "military specifications" but that doesn't mean they are approved to supply parts to the government or that the parts are properly certificated and documented.
One problem is that "mil spec" means different things to different people. When most people/companies use the term "mil spec", it usually does not mean 100% mil spec, just sort of mil spec.
Well said. I found this to be the biggest problem when buying AR parts. Most companies outright lie about parts quality others don't know any better. Another problem is that most online retailers do not disclose their sources/manufacturers therefore parts might be coming from China, Taiwan, or Turkey as it is often the case. Even a lot of US-made parts are not up to quality because they are manufactured by small shops.
If you absolutely must have a mil-spec parts I would suggest going only with the mil-spec suppliers Colt, LMT. FN does not sell parts to consumers as far as I know. At $269 it's hard to justify a spare LMT LPK although you do get a 2-stage trigger and an ambi safety with it.
It would be interesting for me to see a comparison done, by a someone more knowledgable than I, between a Colt and a few generic/cheaper LPKs to identify differences (both in materials, dimensions, and coatings).
So the term mil spec can mean real mil spec or sort of mil spec or we are calling it mil spec because it sounds cool? Sounds to me that There is a lot of fraud and false advertising. I go back to my earlier statement. Either a part is mil spec or it is not. Sort of mil spec means it is not mil spec. And a buffer tube that is mil spec as to one thing but not others is not mil spec.
Well said. I found this to be the biggest problem when buying AR parts. Most companies outright lie about parts quality others don't know any better. Another problem is that most online retailers do not disclose their sources/manufacturers therefore parts might be coming from China, Taiwan, or Turkey as it is often the case. Even a lot of US-made parts are not up to quality because they are manufactured by small shops.
If you absolutely must have a mil-spec parts I would suggest going only with the mil-spec suppliers Colt, LMT. FN does not sell parts to consumers as far as I know. At $269 it's hard to justify a spare LMT LPK although you do get a 2-stage trigger and an ambi safety with it.
It would be interesting for me to see a comparison done, by a someone more knowledgable than I, between a Colt and a few generic/cheaper LPKs to identify differences (both in materials, dimensions, and coatings).
The problem with doing a comparison is less than reputable companies kits will change as they source cheap parts.
RobertTheTexan
11-22-17, 09:48
So the term mil spec can mean real mil spec or sort of mil spec or we are calling it mil spec because it sounds cool? Sounds to me that There is a lot of fraud and false advertising. I go back to my earlier statement. Either a part is mil spec or it is not. Sort of mil spec means it is not mil spec. And a buffer tube that is mil spec as to one thing but not others is not mil spec.
When I said “mil spec is mil spec” in a very facetious manner I mean that also from quality perspective and material/machining perspective. Take the bolt carrier group. You can technically buy a mil spec BCG for $49 bucks, and it does meet the military specs in terms of what the carrier is made of, what the bolt is made of and machined to the tolerances specified. However if you look at that BCG carefully, you can see the gas key staking is completely sub standard, the firing pin may be in “spec” but could be inferior materials. That’s why that $49 BCG is inferior to an LMT or a DD, or a BCM BCG.
Materials is another potential area where a company may be adhering to the spec, but the spec may not detail certain metals or alloy. So a manufacturer will take advantage of that and use inferior metals but if it’s measured it will be within spec, but is definitely sub standard.
And sometimes it’s not about the spec. You have Manufacturer A who makes a part for company 1, company 2 and company 3.
They may sell the same part to all three companies, but only company 1 has specifications that could dictate more exacting tolerances or even specify that 8/10 BCG’s must undergo a 10 point inspection whereas companies 2 and 3 specify gay every 3/10 get additional QA time. Company 2 and 3 can sell the part for cheaper but there is also a good risk of inferior parts being on the market and consumed by guys like you and me.
This is why I believe “spare parts are spare parts” is total horse crap. You should also understand also the guys who have weighed in on this discussion have done so ad nauseam and are probably tired of repeating themselves. They are our SME’s, our industry experts, mods and seniors who have been working/ building AR’s for 20 years. Me personally? I respect em and I listen to em.
If you ever visit TOS, and someone asks about building a new AR and do thy really need to go with the more expensive parts, you will see the brand haters come out of the woodwork. The same guys who run Bushmaster and Olympic Arms and consider them equal to Colt, Noveske, LMT, KAC etc. Why do they think that?
Because they believe “mil spec is mil spec”.
And it just isn’t.
That’s why if you want to do it right, do your homework. Go with reputable companies. Read reviews from guys who know what they are talking about and when you ask a question about quality and someone just gives you a brand name, it doesn’t hurt to ask “why?” Why is that brand better. You can contact the manufacturer or ask on forums like this. You can ask why an ACOG is such a great sight and get that answered and you may also hear, it’s a great sight but it may not be for you. It can go beyond that with what I call perceived value vs realized value, but that’s out of scope for what you asked.
Do your due diligence because anything with doing, is worth doing right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In your example a BCG with staking that is not mil-spec is not a mil spec item. Likewise if the materials are not mil spec then the part is not mil spec even if the tolerances are. Moreover if a part has tighter tolerances than mil spec (ie better?) then it also is not mil spec. If a part or assembly of parts meets military specifications then mil spec is mil spec. And if they don't it's not mil spec and the entire concept of interchangeability of parts is nonsense and we should go back to hand made guns admitting that Eli Whitney was wrong.
RobertTheTexan
11-22-17, 12:39
In your example a BCG with staking that is not mil-spec is not a mil spec item. Likewise if the materials are not mil spec then the part is not mil spec even if the tolerances are. Moreover if a part has tighter tolerances than mil spec (ie better?) then it also is not mil spec. If a part or assembly of parts meets military specifications then mil spec is mil spec. And if they don't it's not mil spec and the entire concept of interchangeability of parts is nonsense and we should go back to hand made guns admitting that Eli Whitney was wrong.
So it sounds like you are in the "mil spec is mil spec" camp and know what the mil specification is on the gas key. But just consider a couple of things. For example, So when I look st the mil spec for the M4 carbine, (MIL-C-71186(AR) it says that the gas key must be torqued and staked IAW applicable drawings. Unfortunately when I look at those drawings, I have a hard time distinguishing what the spec is exactly, but the point that it's a drawing and at least in the drawings I have, it doesn't state explicitly: "stake depth must be .XXmm deep and extend across the hex bolt by X.XXXmm
So you’re saying there isn’t a fudge factor in that?
Or how about the RE tube? mil spec states: “...shall be securely fastened to the lower receiver by means of the receiver end plate being staked to the receiver extension nut.”
So are you saying there is no fudge factor in that? That there can be zero variation while still adhering to mil specification? that there can't be just really craptastic staking job? Granted there's been bad stake jobs on Colts and the other big boys, but it doesn't take a lot of research to see that there are companies who consistent produce crappy stake jobs. Just as one example of one part.
I just do not buy that there are not any companies out there selling a “mil spec” part whatever it may be hasn’t done a little manipulation of the standard in an effort to reduce their cost. It could be my means of an inferior workforce who doesnt perform the task correctly, consistently or by means of inferior materials.
Because it really does sound like you’re saying that. It doesn’t take a deep search to see pics of craptastic stake jobs on buffer tube end plate and castle nut. CONSISTENT substandard staking, yet It Is Staked.
But if your reasoning is correct, you can make a ton of friends on here by saving them a ton of money. If mil spec is mil spec, then we can all start buying Bushmaster and Olympic Arms. No need for LMT’s KAC’s, Colts, BCM, and custom builds. The poor KAC, Let See What You Have" thread is going to suffer. :jester:
Because mil spec is mil spec.
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/42kmoig.gif
Moreover if a part has tighter tolerances than mil spec (ie better?) then it also is not mil spec.
This is not true. If the tolerance is +.000 to -.005 and in the process, the contractor holds tolerance to -.001 to .002 which is tighter, it is not only within tolerance, but is within control. It is not only better than milspec, it is within milspec.
However, if you said tighter clearances, you would be correct. If the clearance is set to be +.005 to +.010 and the clearance was held to +.002 to +.003, the clearance is not within spec. It may be in control, but it is not within tolerance and therefore not milspec.
...when I look st the mil spec for the M4 carbine, (MIL-C-71186(AR) it says that the gas key must be torqued and staked IAW applicable drawings. Unfortunately when I look at those drawings, I have a hard time distinguishing what the spec is exactly, but the point that it's a drawing and at least in the drawings I have, it doesn't state explicitly: "stake depth must be .XXmm deep and extend across the hex bolt by X.XXXmm
So you’re saying there isn’t a fudge factor in that?
Staking isn't a grey area. Although staking instructions may not be found on the print, there will be instructions somewhere in the notes or the approved work order on what staking method(s) to use. There is a tech manual on staking that must be followed. There is a manual on how to stake and what the allowable limits are and there is a manual on how to inspect staking. A company concerned with doing it right will avail themselves of the specs.
Because mil spec is mil spec.
Right. But what many people don't realize, or flat out ignore, even if all the manufacturing steps are followed to the letter, it is not milspec unless there is documentation to prove it. It is not milspec without the approval from the government to make that particular item for the government.
I just do not buy that there are not any companies out there selling a “mil spec” part whatever it may be hasn’t done a little manipulation of the standard in an effort to reduce their cost.
Bingo!
Hey guys,
I wanted to get spare springs, detents, etc. I was going to pick up colt parts from Brownells, but they're like $2 each. I know that White Oak Armament sells the same thing for like 40-50 cents.
Any noticeable quality differences? I don't think Colt manufactures these, so.
thanks.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/Spare-Lower-Parts_c_150.html
C4
Ok. Why is mil spec not mil spec? Either a part is manufactured to military specifications or it is not. And it follows that if Colt manufactures a part that is up to military specifications and Company x manufactures the same part to military specifications then one part is as good as the other. That's the whole point of military specifications. That's the whole point of interchangeability of parts. When the Army rebuilds a rifle it does so from parts meeting military specifications regardless of the manufacturer of that part.
Most companies do not do ANY in house QC. That is why you want to buy parts from companies like BCM and Colt (as they do it).
C4
titsonritz
11-22-17, 15:24
http://www.gandrtactical.com/Spare-Lower-Parts_c_150.html
C4
I did not see any buffer retainers, do you not carry them?
I did not see any buffer retainers, do you not carry them?
Yep, we have them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-Buffer-Retainer_p_883.html
C4
titsonritz
11-22-17, 15:49
Yep, we have them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-Buffer-Retainer_p_883.html
C4
Thanks
I am in the logic camp. If a part is made to military specifications then it is made to military specifications. If those specifications have a tolerance range then then that part must fall within those tolerances. If the specification states that only parts made by military suppliers are mil spec then all parts not made by those companies are not mil spec. As for the drawings I would assume that they are referring to the official drawings contained in the technical data package and would contain the precise requirements for staking etc.
As for other countries if they manufacture M16 series weapons using the technical data package supplied by the US government then I would assume their parts are made to the same standards as US made parts and are mil spec. The whole point of a standard is to insure the interchangeability of parts and that is what mil spec does.
So only those parts which have passed government inspection are mil spec? I would assume then that only parts accepted by the government and then surplussed out of the government are truly mil spec parts.
So only those parts which have passed government inspection are mil spec? I would assume then that only parts accepted by the government and then surplussed out of the government are truly mil spec parts.
That is probably the safest best. I would also throw in companies that follow the TDP, (but do not have a .Mil contract) AND have a strict QC program.
C4
Sancho Panza
11-23-17, 10:50
BCM
Colt
Any others?
BCM
Colt
Any others?
Sionics
I'm curious as to what everyone keeps around as wear and tear spare parts? And what kind of schedule? My round count gets spread out between the AR's I have but there will come a time when stuff starts to get worn out.
I'm curious as to what everyone keeps around as wear and tear spare parts? And what kind of schedule? My round count gets spread out between the AR's I have but there will come a time when stuff starts to get worn out.
I have spares of every receiver roll pin, pin, spring, and detent. They are inexpensive enough that it just makes sense to me.
Hammer and trigger pins I amass when I replace triggers, likewise I have several mil spec hammers and triggers in the box.
A couple of extractors, a couple of ejectors, a couple of pins for both, 6 or so extractor springs (springco and BCM), several sets of standard gas rings and a couple of McFarland one piece rings.
I have one spare 5.56 bolt and one spare 6.5 Grendel bolt, plus several complete BCG's which are earmarked for future builds.
Buffer spring - one each for rifle and carbine. You can replace buffer springs by measurement: under 12 inches for rifle, under 10 for carbine; by cycles - generally around 5,000 to 6,000 rounds; or when you start having problems.
Hammer and trigger springs - when there are problems.
Extractors - replace when it doesn't pass visual inspection, or if troubleshooting indicates it is needed.
Extractor springs: when indicated by FTE's or other issues.
Gas rings: when they don't pass this test: with cam pin removed, turn carrier so the bolt is pointed down. If the weight of bolt causes it to drop out the bolt carrier you need to replace the gas rings.
Regularly function test your rifle and replace any parts of FCG as needed.
I try not to work on firearms at the range, it is not optimal and you run the chance of losing parts - I on the other hand, always lose parts. I bring two rifles.
If you are thinking duty/HD rather than range use you may want to use a PM schedule that will have you discarding parts with life still in them to be sure of function when needed. I stole this from someplace:
2,500 round interval,
* Inspect and replace as necessary extractor spring, insert and O-ring
5,000 round interval
* Replace extractor spring
* Replace extractor insert
* Replace Crane O'ring (new springs may not need this)
* Replace gas rings
* Replace buffer spring
* Replace trigger and hammer springs
10,000 round interval
* Replace bolt
When I was armoring on LE weapons I tried to get agencies to do a complete spring replacement every three years - crazy talk.
Does BCM supply parts to the government? I thought only Colt and FN did?
Does BCM supply parts to the government? I thought only Colt and FN did?It's a little bit more complicated than that.
Colt and FN sell complete rifles.
Many companies have contracts to sell specific parts for repair. Some you would know of, some you might not.
And some of those companies might also be suppliers to Colt/FN. Or Colt/FN may choose to make that part in house.
Then there is special block stuff where companies like LMT play a big role.
To put it in perspective, LMT has had over 158 federal contracts since 2007, nearly all DOD. $15m rough value. Some of that is M203, but most of the rest is M4 related parts. DLA and the Army were big chunks.
Toolcraft is another supplier. Apparently one part, $5m in contracts. Several other parts for other weapon systems.
Just examples of companies selling true "mil-spec" to the military. There are many more, just not who you would think.
Also, a company may win a contract once, then lose it the next time. Or may be a subcontractor to another company.
Outlander Systems
11-24-17, 09:30
Action springs. They're cheap and are a wear item.
I'm curious as to what everyone keeps around as wear and tear spare parts? And what kind of schedule? My round count gets spread out between the AR's I have but there will come a time when stuff starts to get worn out.
Does BCM supply parts to the government? I thought only Colt and FN did?
US Military, no I do not think so. Federal Govt? Yes. We have won bids for the Border Patrol, etc.
C4
BCM
Colt
Any others?
LMT and most likely KAC.
C4
LMT and most likely KAC.
C4Any chance of your LPK coming back? Wish I had bought multiples at the time.
Any chance of your LPK coming back? Wish I had bought multiples at the time.
When the BCM and Colt LPK's came out, we stopped doing ours (no need).
C4
Always nice to have another option but makes sense. I'm just being greedy [emoji5] Of all the parts kits I have used, I always felt like yours was of the highest quality (LMT iirc?). This is a direct comparison to Colt, Daniel Defense and ALG.
That would be a cool idea. Except Colt doesn't even make the components in their LPK's at all.
One reason I stick with Colt.
That would be a cool idea. Except Colt doesn't even make the components in their LPK's at all.
If it’s Colt, we know the QC is up to par, right? Who makes Colt’s? What on their carbines does Colt make?
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Sancho Panza
11-24-17, 18:43
That would be a cool idea. Except Colt doesn't even make the components in their LPK's at all.
Not to doubt your word, I'm sure you're correct. Who makes them, then? They do pass Colt's QC.
If it’s Colt, we know the QC is up to par, right? Who makes Colt’s? What on their carbines does Colt make?
I've tried looking and here is what I come up with, first a rather eloquent statement of the issue:
That info is confidential in almost all cases. There are very STRICT Contracts regarding the confidentiality of subbed-out companies that do the machining of parts for AR-15 Manufacturers.
You're not going to know these things unless you work for a manufacturer, and even then, you'd have to keep your mouth shut about it.
This is precisely why I find it humorous, and highly idicative of Fanboy Ignorance when people Trash-Talk manufacturer ABC out one side of their mouth, and blindly praise, laud, and magnify the 'superiority' of manufacturer XYZ out the other side of their mouth! Often times within the same exact thread!
They don't seem to realize - Company XYZ uses parts manufactured by Company ABC, as well as parts made by the same sub-contracted machine shops.
So after all that, as far as I can tell, these guys (and gals) are all OEM suppliers (certainly not the whole list, probably not even a start):
http://www.lwschneider.com/parts.html - The M16/AR-15 rifle has become a staple for military, law enforcement and competition shooters around the world, and L.W. Schneider has become one of the most prolific suppliers of M16/AR-15 parts to the firearms industry. We currently manufacture AR-style parts ranging from mil spec charging handles, carrying handles and handguards to NM sight assemblies and special custom parts for heavily accurized models. If your company requires specific M16 parts in lots of five-thousand (5000) or more, chances are we either have them in current production or we have manufactured t hem sometime in the not-too-distant past.
http://www.continentalmachinetool.com/firearms.html - "Continental Machine & Tool, has been a major producer of component parts for military and consumer AR-15 manufacturers since the Vietnam War. It's highly unlikely that anyone who has fired any U.S.-label AR-15 rifle in the last 30 years was using a gun that did not contain CMT-made parts. For the last dozen years, in fact, it has manufactured about 80 percent of all parts for U.S. AR manufacturers––up to 10,000 triggers and hammers a month for AR-15s and M16s " - Dick Metcalf
http://www.amtechinternational.com/ar-15-manufacturer/
http://microbest.com/products
http://www.aopmfg.com/industries/firearms/ - AO Precision is a major provider for the M16 and M4 parts contract for upper receivers, bolts, carriers and barrel extensions. We are also sole source to the U.S. Government for breech bolt assemblies for the M61A1 20mm Vulcan cannon. The company produces parts for the M249 SAW and M240 Machine gun and USSOCOM suppressor components.
http://www.schmidtool.com/cnc-machining-steel-trigger-military-industry.html - Schmid Tool and Engineering (those 'S' markings you see on hammers and triggers) recently completed the manufacture of a high volume production run of steel triggers for the military firearm industry. The contract called for a two week delivery of 72,000 steel triggers that met multiple military specifications. Fabricated from 8620 steel, our highly trained machinists were able to design the investment casting mold, machining fixtures, and gaging required for the streamlined milling operations used to fabricate the 15." x 2" x 0.3" part. Secondary operations involved grinding and heat treating along with application of a manganese phosphate coating and a black finish. All parts met with the strict ±.0005" tolerances required by the customer's specification.
At Schmid Tool and Engineering, high volume jobs present us with the opportunity to test our abilities for machining parts in the most efficient, cost-effective manner possible. One of our recent challenges was a contract from a firearms manufacturer for fabricating 100,000 anodized aluminum tubes that met multiple military specifications. Focusing on efficient use of materials, our in-house design team developed a multi-step primary CNC machining process that incorporated an impact extrusion, turning the parts on a Y-axis lathe, and then horizontal milling. Subsequently, the tubes, which measured 8" long with 1" diameters, were put through secondary processes that involved sand blasting, dry film lubricating, and finally anodizing to the required finish. Inspection revealed that all parts maintained the tight ±.0005-inch tolerances that the firearms industry demands. Packaged in partitioned boxes, the tubes were shipped to a satisfied customer.
http://www.ctspring.com/industries/defense-and-firearms -
I don't know about these guys, are they actually a manufacturer or a jobber? http://www.criticalcapabilities.com/#about
Not saying there is anything wrong with them. Simply that there are some other companies who use and sell the exact parts. Whether someone wants to believe, doubts it, etc.. doesn't cause me to lose sleep at night.
Not to doubt your word, I'm sure you're correct. Who makes them, then? They do pass Colt's QC.
So then have we come full circle? Isn't a part manufactured to military specifications manufactured to military specifications? And if it is manufactured to military specifications isn't that independent of the manufacturer? Is a cheap mil spec part inferior to an expensive mil spec part? Or is what we are really saying is that I like company x buy from them?
So then have we come full circle? Isn't a part manufactured to military specifications manufactured to military specifications? And if it is manufactured to military specifications isn't that independent of the manufacturer? Is a cheap mil spec part inferior to an expensive mil spec part? Or is what we are really saying is that I like company x buy from them?
*face palm*
So then have we come full circle? Isn't a part manufactured to military specifications manufactured to military specifications? And if it is manufactured to military specifications isn't that independent of the manufacturer? Is a cheap mil spec part inferior to an expensive mil spec part? Or is what we are really saying is that I like company x buy from them?
EAG had the pleasure of re-visiting the Bravo Company USA facility in Hartland WI 30June 2014.
This visit followed a Bravo Company Special Carbine conducted on 29June2014 http://www.lightfighter.net/to...51#13684252103897051
Full disclosure. Paul is a close friend and has been for 10 years. Bravo Company makes the rifles I use. There is a reason for this...
Our last visit to BRAVO Company was 3 years ago, just as they finished moving from their previous 8000 square foot facility to the current 32000 square foot location.
At that time the building was approximately 1/3 occupied.
Now, it is bursting at the seams.
There is a reason for this as well. They understand the user community and they advertise heavily in the market.
They sell a great number of gun related products.
They make great guns. They have spectacular Quality Control and Quality Assurance.
They have excellent Customer Service.
BCM puts to bed the myth that *Parts is Parts* that is so espoused by the bubble gun crowd.
Bravo Company is not a factory in the manner of Colt and FNUSA, where they manufacture the majority of the parts that go into the gun. Not yet…
Instead, they purchase parts from specific vendors to assemble the weapons in house, like most other small gun companies do.
The parts BCM uses are the Grade 1 parts that meet the milspec for the M16 FOW. These are purchased from those companies that supply the gov.
However, Bravo Company has learned to check everything that comes in. This is a result of a barrel maker delivering what they claimed was the spec 11595E steel, but after testing at a lab it turned out to be something else.
He certainly could have used the barrels anyway, and no one would have known anything about it.
Except for him.
He lost a lot of money while that was sorted out, but he retained his integrity.
The result is that BCM has invested in gauges and training to ensure everything that comes in the door is within spec. The QA is important when you consider that between 20%-40% of everything they receive has to be rejected for failing to meet the spec.
This is both disturbing and gratifying.
Disturbing because so much of what was in the market as quality items actually sucked.
And gratifying…
Because of this frustration brought on by the rejection rate from USGI suppliers, Bravo Company hasbeen slowly been partnering with machining companies specifically outside the firearms industry to set up its own dedicated BCM production lines and machines for about 80% of the parts that make up the rifle. This has mitigated the ebb and flow of quality and supply that have become the nature of this industry.
Yeah, disturbing because of the insane amount of failures, but gratifying as that what goes out of the door -now and in the future is -very much GTG.
The big seller now is of course the KeyMod rail, which was standardized by Eric Kincel- who works for Bravo Company.
We have seven KM’s in service now. Three KM13’s, a KM10, two KM9’s, and a KM10 pistol.
all but one KM0 and the pistol are available as loaners for students
Paul saw the need to introduce upgraded parts for the AR FOW. These did not of course meet the MILSPEC, but exceeded it.
The first was the Gunfighter Charging Handle, which has been wildly successful. The OEM charging handle- and some very expensive aftermarket items- were proven to be deficient.
This enhances user operability as well as increases the strength of the charging handle.
Having had to suffer through the whims and whimsies of suppliers and a very volatile market, Bravo Company set out to make themselves less dependent on others.
To that end he now has Gunfighter pistol grips, vertical foregrips and buttstocks.
The stocks are exceptionally interesting. They are the lightest, and arguably the strongest stock available. We have been running three of them now and the feedback from students is positive.
The new upper and lower receivers will supplant the current models soon.
This independence ensures that it will be easier to ensure that the user community will continue to receive rock solid guns.
We once again had the opportunity to talk with all the good folks at Bravo Company about what they do and how they do it, something I try to do on every factory visit. The good companies allow or encourage this, and we learned a lot.
Bravo Company continues to grow. There are a lot of new items in the pipeline that will eventually come to fruition.
We’re looking forward to doing this again next year.
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/bravo-company-factory-visit-30june-2014?reply=14106560182942720
So then have we come full circle?
Isn't a part manufactured to military specifications manufactured to military specifications?
And if it is manufactured to military specifications isn't that independent of the manufacturer?
Is a cheap mil spec part inferior to an expensive mil spec part?
Or is what we are really saying is that I like company x buy from them?
No.
No.
No.
Depends on the variables.
No, not even close. I’m not even sure how you came up with that.
RobertTheTexan
11-25-17, 09:48
So then have we come full circle? Isn't a part manufactured to military specifications manufactured to military specifications? And if it is manufactured to military specifications isn't that independent of the manufacturer? Is a cheap mil spec part inferior to an expensive mil spec part? Or is what we are really saying is that I like company x buy from them?
I thought MistWolf covered that and he did so replying to your post.
I read....
There are companies out there who are putting the term “mil spec” next to their manufactured (or purchased) part that has not been manufactured as part of any GSA schedule (is that the right terms?) or gov’t contract. Said parts may be manufactured to spec, however since there is no contract, there is no validation or vetting of the part on the military side, as in a first run or concept part, although it could be QA’d it may not be QA’d according to the actual spec.
His second reply: Bingo! There are companies out there who are manipulating that spec in an effort to cut cost. I expect this is done across almost all industries jay have human led companies who are manufactured parts that are controlled to a degree by human hands.
Thats how I understood it, so I might have a point wrong, but here’s how he answered that:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171125/afa517c933bb60586d1ea9ea427c319e.jpg
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Well what I actually hear you all saying is that the average consumer cannot actually know if a part is mil spec or not. You have to rely on the supplier/manufacturer to be telling you the truth and so therefore you have to trust your supplier to be telling you the truth (and you all have a very small set of suppliers/manufacturers that you trust).
RobertTheTexan
11-25-17, 11:36
What I do? I buy based on what I have experienced. When my experience falls short, which they often do as we are dealing with a combat rifle for the most part, I fall on the expertise of a select few members of this forum. I have never been led astray. Because they have never led me to a shady company. 99.9999% is the time it’s a combat proven part or optic or whatever, and even if the part for whatever reason is out of spec or has an issue the company I’m doing business with makes it right.
So it’s not really complicated in my book. Buy from people/companies who have a proven track record and rep. When you don’t as I have occasionally done, then you get to figure out on your own if you made a good decision or not in diverging from a known entity.
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Well what I actually hear you all saying is that the average consumer cannot actually know if a part is mil spec or not. You have to rely on the supplier/manufacturer to be telling you the truth and so therefore you have to trust your supplier to be telling you the truth (and you all have a very small set of suppliers/manufacturers that you trust).
Out of curiosity, what parts do you personally expect to be milspec on the AR15 you currently own?
I would expect all parts advertised as mil spec to be mil spec in terms of material and tolerances. I would expect the upper and lower receivers to be mil spec except were necessary to comply with the law regarding automatic capabilities. I would expect all small parts such as springs, plungers, pins and fire control to be mil spec if advertised as such and I would expect major assemblies to be properly assembled, staked and torqued as required.
What is the general thoughts on DPMS spare parts?
I must admit I fell prey to the "mil-spec" is mil-spec thing.
What is the general thoughts on DPMS spare parts?
I must admit I fell prey to the "mil-spec" is mil-spec thing.
Even though DPMS guns are not "top tier" or well respected, I think their small parts are actually good quality.
At least one person who works for an AR manufacturer (who sells complete firearms under their own brand) told me that DPMS small parts are widely used in the industry by reputable AR manufacturers.
I assume DPMS is not a true manufacturer of small parts, and that they just sell some other companies' small parts. But I could be wrong about that.
Joe Mamma
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