PDA

View Full Version : S&W 1911's



m60g
10-11-08, 16:25
Anyone have any exp. with them? How do you like them?

scubie02
10-11-08, 17:17
I own two of the scandium commanders--a PD and an SC (basically the earlier model to the PD with the "billboard" markings), and used to own one of the 5" steel models. The Smith's tend to be very accurate (despite the horrible crowns) and I have never had any failures with any of them with any type of ammo. They are nicely finished as far as basically having a carry bevel that most would charge extra for, though they seem to have a tendency towards little blemishes in the finish so seeing in person rather than ordering unseen is good. They run like tops. Downsides would be an annoying tendency to drop brass on the top of your head, and not being typical as far as internal extractors and such, meaning they would likely have to go back to smith for work. But at least smith has an excellent rep for customer service and they pay the shipping both ways if you have a problem.

maximus83
10-11-08, 17:55
I have not owned one, but have seen discussion by some professionals (the likes of Hilton Yam of 10-8 Performance) who believe that the external extractor used by most S&W 1911's eventually becomes unreliable after hard usage. I also hear a lot of very positive reports from recent S&W buyers of 1911's that they are extremely accurate, and that they have had no reliability issues. However, in almost all cases these are folks who have not pushed their 1911's yet to the extreme that Hilton Yam is talking about when he says that the extractors have problems.

Can't tell you whether the S&W 1911's are good or not. But all I can say is, based on the issues with the external extractor that Yam and others have raised, I decided not to buy them. Didn't want to risk the issue with the extractor, and besides, I didn't really want a 1911 anyway that has a "non-standard" extractor. Other companies like Kimber and Sig tried them, and went back to the internal extractor.

Here's a thread (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=25989&an=0&page=0#25989) in Yam's 10-8 forums where one of Yam's fellow moderators was discussing some of their specific findings on the S&W external extractor:

"The S&W extractor sits too high in the slide. When the barrel links down during the unlock/extract/eject cycle, it moves the case rim off the sweet spot of the extractor, effectively robbing extractor tension and reducing its purchase on the rim. This results in very erratic ejection and/or malfunctions. Due to tolerance stacking, some guns will run okay, and others will not work at all.

Note that the S&W Performance Center guns, which by accounts seem to work just fine, utilize a completely different extractor, which is wider and sits lower in the slide.

Hilton has done the most research on this, and was the one who first turned me on to WHY this was happening. My experiences with them showing up at work and on the range matches Hilton's experience."

scubie02
10-11-08, 20:38
well, there was a guy over on the 1911 forum that shot his to about 45k rounds I believe it was before having a failure, which is more than the average person will likely shoot one in their life I would think (he shot some sort of competition). WIth ammo going for what it's going for these days I can't imagine shooting that much haha.

In theory an external SHOULD be MORE reliable since any chimp can install the external/it doesn't need to be tuned like an internal. But then you need to go to Smith to replace it should that time come.

Kimber had to swap back because they tried to make their's too short (the rumor being they didn't want it to spoilt he looks by going into the slide serrations). Smith never had a problem with theirs. People stopped buying Kimber's in droves and they switched back.

I don't really have a strong preference myself I guess so long as it works, but I do have more traditional Colt's and Springer's than Smith's. I carry the smith's alot, though, because of the weight. Since most all of my other auto's have external extractors I guess I don't worry about them too much.

maximus83
10-12-08, 00:25
Since most all of my other auto's have external extractors I guess I don't worry about them too much.

I agree with you that the external extractors on other modern design semiautos are not a problem. It appears to be only the attempt to put external extractors in 1911's that causes issues. However, perhaps S&W have worked it out by now. I am no expert on their products and don't own one, just repeating what I have seen discussed by Yam and others. Thought the o.p. might want to investigate this question before buying.

Bushytale
10-12-08, 03:24
kimber stopped selling all models with the external extractors due to the fact that when any example would have a problem many times they could not get them to work properly and ended up exchanging the slide to an internal extractor type as the fix.

m60g, do yourself a favor and stay away from the S&W 1911 as they tend to be a similar situation. If the tolerance stack is against you, it will be more trouble than it's worth. The S&W also has a firing pin safety that has shown some problems as well. Get a Colt new '70 series or Springfield and be happy!

scubie02, that brass hitting you in the head is a "clue" that the extractor is not doing what it is supposed to do.

C-Fish
10-12-08, 09:57
Anyone have any exp. with them? How do you like them?

I have one. I bought it recently at SGC, "salesman sample". $399.00

I have taken it to the range 4 times and shot ~500 rounds.

100% thus far. More accurate than my Glocks from 10yards off hand (closest range allowed at my range). I have not benched it yet.

This purchase was "spur of the moment" based on price...

Am I satisfied? At this point 100%. This will not be a carry gun, I have Tupperware for that role.

I could give a crap about the external extractor...I have had zero issues (I realize 500 rounds is not a true test), I'm not a purist (1911's that is), this pistol works for me and the price was right on...

Regards...

DM-SC
10-12-08, 18:36
Is anyone else here old enough to recall the days when most all 1911 guns had to have, at the very least, a few hundred dollars worth of parts/labor to work reliably with JHP ammo? ;)

As for the SW1911...the ones I personally know about, including my Commander sized 1911PD, run and shoot quite well.

Yes, I've heard the stories of failed extractors and failed grip safeties on the SW1911. Excepting Mr. Yam's opinion, I really haven't heard of very many, however.

Could the one you buy have issues? Sure. Just as with anything else man made...there can be problems. That's what warranties are for and why we should new guns until we're pretty certain they're reliable before we carry them around.

ThirdWatcher
10-13-08, 02:59
Is anyone else here old enough to recall the days when most all 1911 guns had to have, at the very least, a few hundred dollars worth of parts/labor to work reliably with JHP ammo? ;).

I carried 1911s in the Army, but I waited 35 years (after getting out) to buy one for this very reason. Now I carry one of my 1911s everywhere I go, on and off duty.:D

trio
10-13-08, 07:14
kimber stopped selling all models with the external extractors due to the fact that when any example would have a problem many times they could not get them to work properly and ended up exchanging the slide to an internal extractor type as the fix.

m60g, do yourself a favor and stay away from the S&W 1911 as they tend to be a similar situation. If the tolerance stack is against you, it will be more trouble than it's worth. The S&W also has a firing pin safety that has shown some problems as well. Get a Colt new '70 series or Springfield and be happy!

scubie02, that brass hitting you in the head is a "clue" that the extractor is not doing what it is supposed to do.


i disagree pretty strongly with this....i haven't heard of smith having anywhere near the QC control that kimber has...in fact, searching through 1911 forum and m1911.org i can find no indication of the systemic issues you describe

in fact, most of what I see speaks very, very favorably of the smith guns...

I've owned 3, and they have all run...

i've owned 7 kimbers, and 5 of them needed serious work....

if I was going to buy another "production" 1911 it would be a smith...

in fact, I am going to try and cancel my fusion order because, with the economy as it is, I'm having a hard time with $2000 on a gun that will be a safe queen...my consolation to myself may be another smith 1911

Robb Jensen
10-13-08, 07:18
I agree with Trio S&W is one of the companies who've figured out how to make an external extractor work.
Kimbers was a different design than S&Ws.

ToddG
10-13-08, 20:44
The Smith extractor design is based on the 4506, and is the same "i-beam" configuration used in the M&P (in all calibers).

I taught a class a few years ago to a military group that had a number of S&W 1911 Performance Center guns, and they were have tons of extraction problems. My understanding is that the production (non-Performance Center) guns are actually the more reliable ones.

forgiven
10-13-08, 21:02
My friend has one that he enjoys - he hasn't had extraction/jamming issues with his.

maximus83
10-13-08, 22:11
Here are Hilton's more lengthy comments on the S&W extractor, posted ironically just 10 days ago over in the 1911 S&W forums (http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=1936058&postcount=9). Obviously his is not the only opinion on the subject, and there are those who are very happy with their S&W 1911's. Also note that he says in this quote, he is not inherently against external extractors, in fact he supports the concept if done right. I just think anybody looking to buy one would benefit from reading his thoughts, along with your other research. He points out, pretty logically, that part of the reason a lot of new and recent buyers don't report the issues is that you don't see them much in guns with low round counts. Again that doesn't mean they're bad or that someone shouldn't buy one, but just be aware of it when you buy. In summary, his position is that "the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent."

"The S&W 1911 is a good value for the money, but some samples of the guns exhibit tolerance stacking which leaves the extractor sitting too high in relation to the cartridge rim. This causes the cartridge rim to get pulled off the extractor hook during barrel linkdown. The extractor loses grip on the casing, resulting in issues with extraction and ejection - commonly seen as erratic ejection patterns or stovepipes. The problem is not apparent in new guns or guns with relatively low round counts (less than 5000 rounds), which is why most shooters tend to do ok with the guns. Further, most shooters do not realize that the gun is borderline in functioning if the empty cases are ejecting from the gun - albeit in a haphazard pattern, to include straight up, to the left, over their head, or straight out in front of the gun. A gun that exhibits such flawed ejection patterns is not "flawless" or "working just fine", and is typically waiting to spring bigger problems on its user. A new extractor doesn't typically cure the issue, as the accumulated wear compounds the tolerance stacking problem.

The fact that there is a different Performance Center extractor should be an important indicator that there is a better solution. Further, it is important to note that I am not condemning all external extractors. If you have read my articles, I am a big proponent of the concept. However, the point here is that the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent.

If you already have the gun running and it is working for you at this time, then drive on. Just keep a critical eye on the gun and understand what you are observing.

If anyone has questions about things that I write about, I would encourage them to contact me directly to get a straight and correct answer. My writings are based on gathered empirical data and firsthand experience, and I am cautious always to post on matters that I have researched thoroughly."

vaspence
10-14-08, 10:29
I haven't had any issues with either the stainless performance center one I had or the blued current production model I now own. When I bought the second one (used) it's the only 1911 I considered. It is priced fairly and runs great out of the box. I have treated it like a Glock and haven't had any issues. That said it only sees a couple of matches a year and a few range trips maybe 600-700 rounds a year. However, I have had it for 3 years and not cleaned it other than wiping the exterior. I'm definitley not a 1911 guy but I'm happy.

Bob
10-15-08, 22:26
Do S&W 1911 FPBs actuate off the trigger or off the grip safety?

USG
10-19-08, 18:01
I have had four different S&W 1911s (stainless 5", PD and SC 4-1/4" and 5" PD Rail). Sold two to associates who carry them daily. Of the ones I still own, I have ~2000 rounds through the rail gun and ~500 through the SC. Had one problem which was a plunger tube which loosened up very slightly on the SC early on. S&W paid the shipping and returned it to me fixed in a week. Two other friends purchased S&W 1911s and have +1000 rounds each through them (one a PD rail and the other steel blue 5") and counting, as they compete monthly.

Neither I nor my associates have had any reliability issues; feeding, firing, extraction, ejection, etc with factory ammunition. I attended the S&W 1911 factory armorer course. The extractor design appears sound and I queried about specific issues with the pistol and there is no track record of extractor problems at all. The grip-safety-activated firing pin safety is not everyone's cup of tea, nor mine, but I have carried the pistol for self-defense with complete confidence.

The guns are universally quite accurate for most uses, as the barrel lugs and seat lockups are good. Two-inch 5-shot groups at 25 yards are typical with ammo the gun likes. They also shoot POA/POI and have a nicely beveled edges for carry. Given the price of the pistol, it's a very good choice.

Having been around the 1911 world for 30+ years, IMHO there is more than the usual amount of gun snobbery involved, since the 1911 is a gunsmith's dream. In the past few years the proclamations of self-appointed omnipotent have become even more strident. There are more 1911 manufacturers and custom semi-custom shops around than ever before, and they all desire to to have you and your money part ways in their own direction. They tend to recommend pistols that, while sound, are easier to sell their services for. This leads to a reduced objective basis.

In comparison to the JMB-designed unit, the S&W extractor is far easier to manufacture, correctly fit and service. This irks the gunsmith that makes his money performing his magic on your 1911, because there is less magic involved. Less magic equals more of your money not leaving you. Especially with the S&W 1911, the pistol is perfectly adequate right out of the box at a very attractive price, and it is made in the USA. You can't shave with it, as you can with the edges on a similarly-priced Brand S. It doesn't have a "custom match-grade" label like Brand K, but it doesn't need an expected trip back to the factory/gunsmith to be accurate and reliable either. It has a large flared integral mag well opening, so doesn't need an aftermarket gunsmith-fitted mag well like so many other brands.

There is no factory produced product anywhere that does not have a wanker escape at some point, even with the best intentions of the factory. If you want perfection you pay for it by ordering up a custom or semi-custom pistol. A couple of brand new examples of highly-rated (or perhaps shilled) semi-custom/custom 1911s I've recently examined were not perfect either. For the money I would not have been satisfied. With factory guns, over-expectant complainers tend to whine on the internet, and on the opposite end of the spectrum satisfied owners are too busy shooting and enjoying their purchase to post.

kingc
10-19-08, 20:31
I have had four different S&W 1911s (stainless 5", PD and SC 4-1/4" and 5" PD Rail). Sold two to associates who carry them daily. Of the ones I still own, I have ~2000 rounds through the rail gun and ~500 through the SC. Had one problem which was a plunger tube which loosened up very slightly on the SC early on. S&W paid the shipping and returned it to me fixed in a week. Two other friends purchased S&W 1911s and have +1000 rounds each through them (one a PD rail and the other steel blue 5") and counting, as they compete monthly.

Neither I nor my associates have had any reliability issues; feeding, firing, extraction, ejection, etc with factory ammunition. I attended the S&W 1911 factory armorer course. The extractor design appears sound and I queried about specific issues with the pistol and there is no track record of extractor problems at all. The grip-safety-activated firing pin safety is not everyone's cup of tea, nor mine, but I have carried the pistol for self-defense with complete confidence.

The guns are universally quite accurate for most uses, as the barrel lugs and seat lockups are good. Two-inch 5-shot groups at 25 yards are typical with ammo the gun likes. They also shoot POA/POI and have a nicely beveled edges for carry. Given the price of the pistol, it's a very good choice.

Having been around the 1911 world for 30+ years, IMHO there is more than the usual amount of gun snobbery involved, since the 1911 is a gunsmith's dream. In the past few years the proclamations of self-appointed omnipotent have become even more strident. There are more 1911 manufacturers and custom semi-custom shops around than ever before, and they all desire to to have you and your money part ways in their own direction. They tend to recommend pistols that, while sound, are easier to sell their services for. This leads to a reduced objective basis.

In comparison to the JMB-designed unit, the S&W extractor is far easier to manufacture, correctly fit and service. This irks the gunsmith that makes his money performing his magic on your 1911, because there is less magic involved. Less magic equals more of your money not leaving you. Especially with the S&W 1911, the pistol is perfectly adequate right out of the box at a very attractive price, and it is made in the USA. You can't shave with it, as you can with the edges on a similarly-priced Brand S. It doesn't have a "custom match-grade" label like Brand K, but it doesn't need an expected trip back to the factory/gunsmith to be accurate and reliable either. It has a large flared integral mag well opening, so doesn't need an aftermarket gunsmith-fitted mag well like so many other brands.

There is no factory produced product anywhere that does not have a wanker escape at some point, even with the best intentions of the factory. If you want perfection you pay for it by ordering up a custom or semi-custom pistol. A couple of brand new examples of highly-rated (or perhaps shilled) semi-custom/custom 1911s I've recently examined were not perfect either. For the money I would not have been satisfied. With factory guns, over-expectant complainers tend to whine on the internet, and on the opposite end of the spectrum satisfied owners are too busy shooting and enjoying their purchase to post.

And, the biggest Bennie not mentioned, at about $80 a pop to send a handgun next day air, Smith and Wesson will email a prepaid shipping label each and every time a warranty claim is made, no questions asked!:)