View Full Version : Pistol for Combat(SHTF)Use
What would peoples choice be for a handgun used exclusively for combat(SHTF) use?
Take into account, that spare parts may or may not be available. And that you probably won't have anyone who can repair your pistol if you can't.
I like my Glocks. Few parts and they're easy to replace. I have extra parts laying around along with extra mags.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-11-08, 17:49
No brainer...
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Lignose3/lignose3.html
I'd rather use a rock!:D Damn but that thing is UGLY
For ordinary daily carry, I'm using my S&W M&P's.
For SHTF, I'd probably carry one of my hi-cap CZ-75 family pistols (an 85 Combat or an SP-01), both of which have custom triggers that are as smooth as 1911 triggers, and can carry 19+1 rounds.
VooDoo6Actual
10-11-08, 18:25
Glock 17, 19, 21 or SA FBI PRO
If I couldn't get a hold of any repair parts or a competent smith, I would choose a Glock
Master_of_Sparks
10-11-08, 19:39
Glock. Any caliber, size or model, just make it a Glock.
Whichever I had on me when the SHTF... meaning a well abused G19 or a well loved 1911.
On the SHTF rig: G17,
In the Go-bag G19,
EDC G29
Man, your trying to open a can of worms here aren't you?;)
Opinion here, any of the proven designs from the major manufacters should serve well. The Glocks would probably be the easiest to work on, but most proven designs will go so long with out any issues that it probably would not be a concern. I mean in that kind of situation I don't think most people are going to try to shoot 50K a year, I know I wont. I'm going to hoard has much ammo as possible. Currently I would go with my M&P or HK P2000, I've got a eye on a P30 sometime in the future. Again any respected manufacter, Sig, Glock, CZ, HK etc. etc.
It is such a personal choice, I don't know if any knowledgable shooter would make a bad choice. Maybe we should focus on the WORST choice, my vote on that would go to hi-points, and maybe Lorcin's as well:D
Damn Greg that's one obscure off the wall blaster!
Business_Casual
10-11-08, 21:55
Deagle.
M_P
PS - OK, G19
Glock 17, 19, or 21-pretty much in that order.
Following that, believe it or not, Ruger P89-my late production (2007) one is both a tank and a tack driver.
And in the tail of this procession, my SIG-Sauer P229 DAK.
Best, Jon
HK P7 with plenty of mags and spare parts. I love the squeeze cocker. Helmut Weldle was a genius at HK - he retired recently. The HK P7 has a fluted chamber and the extractor that seconds as a loaded chamber indicator can malfunction and the empty cases will still eject.;) Interesting piston design (blow back).
you have to go with a Glock...
it has like 17 parts....you can learn how to repair/replace them on your own if you need to, if not it takes just 5-10 minutes to figure it out...
plus, if you have the AA .22 LR conversion you have a "varmiter"...something you can carry a lot of ammo for, and can feed you....
so you use your standard caliber to kill nosy humans, and the .22 LR to kill nosy rabbit and squirrel and feed you....
9mm. Glock 19.
45acp. 1911
Covers the bases every where I have been.
What would peoples choice be for a handgun used exclusively for combat(SHTF) use?
Mine is a pair of Glock 21 .45 AUTOs
I love my 1911's but i would have to use a Glock 17 or 22.
I hate the grips but i also don't care if i bang them up.
texasrangers
10-12-08, 14:45
cz 75b or a 1911 are my personal choices. cant go wrong with a glock though
I am not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I will have to echo the posters before me and say a Glock is your best bet. The G17 or G19 is extremely popular, but I think I would personally go with a G30 in .45acp.
you have to go with a Glock...
it has like 17 parts....you can learn how to repair/replace them on your own if you need to, if not it takes just 5-10 minutes to figure it out...
plus, if you have the AA .22 LR conversion you have a "varmiter"...something you can carry a lot of ammo for, and can feed you....
so you use your standard caliber to kill nosy humans, and the .22 LR to kill nosy rabbit and squirrel and feed you....
Just what I have now (including the AA kit). I have "tons" of spare parts laying around from doing mods, as well as a buttload of mags (for both 9mm and .22).
I think though that I would also keep my BHP around too (have to have the token steel pistol :D).
Got to go with my BHP, with lube.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-12-08, 22:13
Seriously, there are tons of good ones these days. Glocks, Sigs, HKs, etc. Hard to go wrong the the GSH guns.
Glock 17 or 19 without a doubt !!!:D
30 cal slut
10-13-08, 19:52
Glock 17 and 19's are no-brainers. Relative to Sigs and HK's, they're CHEEP, so you can get a bunch. Spare parts are everywhere and plentiful and you don't need to special order them direct from the manufacturer (like Smith & Wesson).
I'm sure many have heard this before, but it bears repeating: Larry Vickers does not like the Glock in .40 S&W and .45 ACP (the obvious kaboom, and weird frame flex issues). Stick with the 9mm.
G17...........................
I will be using a G21SF:cool:
citizensoldier16
10-13-08, 22:16
GLOCK 17 or 21
Here's why:
GLOCK 21 Torture Test (http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item)
What would peoples choice be for a handgun used exclusively for combat(SHTF) use?
Take into account, that spare parts may or may not be available. And that you probably won't have anyone who can repair your pistol if you can't.
Not my favorite guns to shoot but the G17/G19 is the obvious choice on this one.
George Mac
10-13-08, 23:44
If all of the gunsmiths on the planet suddenly got bird flu....G19 (shoot 'em three times and pretend its a .45)
Glock 17 and Glock 26.
I'd stash my SA Pro and LB TRS for "better" times ahead. Or trade it sell it for more ammo, food, and water if I absolutely had to.:eek::(
If the choice is only one, then one of my Colt Govt. Models and I have the parts and ability to keep it running as long as I will live. My second choice would be my Glock 17 and that would be my recommendation for anyone who is not a gunsmith or armorer.
RogerinTPA
10-14-08, 08:29
M&P9/9c or G19 and lot's of mags and ammo.
Same thing I carry every day... Glock 19
Not only do I have a spare, but I also have a tackle box full of parts. Plenty of spare mags and ammo are also a plus. Not to mention 9mm is a very common caliber to find if you would have to "acquire" some in a pinch.
Jay
ArmatusCivis91
10-15-08, 17:59
CZ75, built extremely tough & very accurate.
Beat Trash
10-22-08, 14:28
Either the M&P9 or the Glock 17/19.
I can obtain the parts for the Glock, and can detail strip it myself, something I can not do with the M&P.
With that thought in mind, it's most likely be a Glock 17 or 19.
Either the M&P9 or the Glock 17/19.
I can obtain the parts for the Glock, and can detail strip it myself, something I can not do with the M&P.
With that thought in mind, it's most likely be a Glock 17 or 19.
Exactly why I went with my Glocks
I like the large magazine capacity of a 9 mm and when using the right load, terminal performance is fine, although intermediate barriers can be problematic. Although I like to shoot the Hi-Power better, the Glock 17/19 are about the perfect out-of-the-box universally available pistols.
I’ve always liked the terminal ballistic potential of .40 S&W, but have not liked the various pistols available—the S&W .40 M&P has solved that problem for me. It is hard not to like 15 rounds of 180 gr JHP in the magazine, especially in an ergonomic, low bore-axis, soft-shooting pistol with a 1911 grip angle; I am especially looking forward to the .40 M&P’s with ambi-safeties.
The .45 ACP has a terminal performance edge, especially with ball, but at the expense of either a larger platform or reduced magazine capacity. I shoot better with a 1911 than any other pistol I have used, but 1911’s do require extra effort and expense to get right. I have not gotten excited about most other .45 pistols I’ve been issued or used, with the exception of the M&P and HK45.
---------------------------------------
For those folks incarcerated in states with 10 rd magazine limits, then I’d stick with a .45 ACP M1911, .45 ACP M&P, or a .40 S&W Browning High Power for personal use.
Failure2Stop
10-22-08, 16:23
I would have to go with either a G17 or 19.
Of course there are lots of great pistols out there that I prefer, but for use in combat away from the US there really isn't anything quite as sustainable as far as ease of repair (with my knowledge level), ammo availability, and parts access.
Of course it would only be used if my primary puked on me first and for sustainment training.
crusader377
10-22-08, 23:32
My top three in order would be the following:
1) CZ-75
2) M1911
3) BHP
Even though my favorite pistol is the M1911 and the BHP is one the best handling pistols around, I think the CZ-75 is the best all round combat pistol currently available. The following are the reasons why I came to this conclusion.
1) Durability and reliability: CZs are very well built and can last for very high round counts, plus the reliability of the CZ75 is as good as any other pistol in the world.
2) Accuracy: The CZ-75 is very accurate 2 to 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards pretty common, plus weight and balance of the CZ-75 allows for very quick and accurate follow up shots.
3) Ability to fire nearly any type of 9mm ammunition: CZ-75s have no problem firing a wide variety of ammunition including poor quality surplus ammunition.
4) Widespread availability worldwide
5) Cost: CZ-75s can be found NIB for the $400 to $450 range
I am especially looking forward to the .40 M&P’s with ambi-safeties.
The first ones have already shipped, I believe. They were going through the final steps at the factory when I was there a couple weeks ago. They should be available through normal commercial and LE channels shortly.
St.Michael
10-23-08, 12:44
Smith 1911.
Glock 9mm (not sure the model cause I haven't picked one out yet :P)
I would carry my G-34 Or 17
I'd prefer the M&P9 but I would probably actually pick the G19. It might be easier for a klutz like me to wrench on.
I have 2 1911's,Springfield Loaded and a Colt Combat Commander,also a Sig p6 which was just refinished and nightsights added.The Combat Comander is my favorite.
Yep the M&P in .40 is really a game changer. Amazingly how little recoil and how much control you have with that pistol. It is the only .40 i could shoot both rapidly and accurately.
In answer to the question it would depend on the circumstances. It's been a long tim since I have routinely been in a SHTF situation.
If I had armorers available and a ready supply of .45 it wold be the HK 45 or HK45c.
If i was my ammo supplier and armorer then Glock 17 or 19 without a doubt.
I am expecting a new AWB so we may all be back to 10 rounds mags except for LEO. If that happens there will probably be somewhat of a shift back to .40 and .45 even though 9 is vastly improved over what it once was.
I’ve always liked the terminal ballistic potential of .40 S&W, but have not liked the various pistols available—the S&W .40 M&P has solved that problem for me.
For those folks incarcerated in states with 10 rd magazine limits, then I’d stick with a .45 ACP M1911, .45 ACP M&P, or a .40 S&W Browning High Power for personal use.
Amp Mangum
10-25-08, 15:59
5 inch 1911 .45acp. I shoot it better than any other pistol.
zippygaloo
10-25-08, 16:04
Like zombie SHTF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVnfyradCPY)? I guess I'm the odd man out. :eek:
I'll go with the Colt Delta Elite 10mm (http://lundestudio.com/photos/delta-bobtail-left-full.jpg) :D Shoot them once!
Handgun choices are very personal. There a lot of variables, to include you hand size and your training and ability.
Stick with a common model from a KNOWN manufacturer with a PROVEN track record of reliability in extreme conditions. Make sure it's 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP or .38spl/.357 magnum.
Go forth and prosper.
dialM4murder
10-25-08, 21:06
What would peoples choice be for a handgun used exclusively for combat(SHTF) use?
Take into account, that spare parts may or may not be available. And that you probably won't have anyone who can repair your pistol if you can't.
Thats one reason most people have more han one pistol, and sometimes two of the same model.
My choice would be Glock 17/19, Sig P226, or Beretta M9. All dead reliable. Glock of course wins if you need to work on the gun yourself.
Re: your signature line
..and Islam is indeed my friend. :D
crebralfix
10-26-08, 06:22
Glock...because the gun was made to be worked on. This is the TRUE genius of the design. Everything on the gun is easily removed. Parts are low cost. Anyone can repair a Glock so long as there problem is not in the frame, barrel, or slide. Only a punch and the sight tools are required.
I recommend, for a SHTF gun, that you buy two replacement spring kits and one of every spare part. Go get Ptooma Productions Complete Glock Reference Guide, which has everything you'll ever need on the topic.
The only other gun I would contemplate, for a long SHTF situation, is a revolver. The reason is that pockets can hold ammo and there are no magazines to lose. Spring replacement kits are available. The only problem is that repairs are more difficult...they actually require skill. So, IMHO, the Glock wins because anyone can follow the book to complete a repair.
Alpha Sierra
10-26-08, 10:44
Glock...because the gun was made to be worked on. This is the TRUE genius of the design. Everything on the gun is easily removed. Parts are low cost. Anyone can repair a Glock so long as there problem is not in the frame, barrel, or slide. Only a punch and the sight tools are required.
I recommend, for a SHTF gun, that you buy two replacement spring kits and one of every spare part. Go get Ptooma Productions Complete Glock Reference Guide, which has everything you'll ever need on the topic.
The only other gun I would contemplate, for a long SHTF situation, is a revolver. The reason is that pockets can hold ammo and there are no magazines to lose. Spring replacement kits are available. The only problem is that repairs are more difficult...they actually require skill. So, IMHO, the Glock wins because anyone can follow the book to complete a repair.
I think the only part replacements that require fitting in a S&W revolver are the hand and the sears. If I am not mistaken eveyrything else is a drop in, and Kunhaussen's manual shows you how to do everything.
Revolvers are also quite durable, so the chances of needing a field repair are not that great.
+1 for the lack of need of a separate magazine to function as a repeating handgun.
I'd trust my K-Frame S&W more than any other gun that I own.
Glock 19. Not the best trigger. Not the most accurate. Not the most evolved design, but it works well enough. OEM parts normally drop in without hassles. Tools needed to replace parts are simple.
Also, after all these years, the limitations are established and the end user has enough info on what the gun won't do and what to watch out for.
Glock 17 and a K-frame Smith are also viable options. But if the SHTF scenarios necessitate going from open carry to concealed (i.e - Bugging Out), the 19 is a bit easier to hide under light clothing. Have not been able to do that with a round gun larger than a J-frame or Detective Special.
If need be, G17 mags can be used in the 19 but not vice versa. The G26 was not considered as I treat it more a second gun or maybe a substitute for a J-frame, and not a replacement for a primary.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-26-08, 19:13
OK, if the SHTF, and that means TEOTWAWKI, HK45.
crebralfix
10-27-08, 07:25
OK, if the SHTF, and that means TEOTWAWKI, HK45.
Should really be six HKs...need to make sure to never run out of ammo or guns. :D
My M&P9P-T - as soon as I have 2,000 failure free rounds though it.
Until then, my Glock 17 - the original Combat Pistol.
Both use NATO 9mm, are easy to work on, and are reliably reliable. Oh yeah, they also pack 17+1 rounds for multiple Zombie BG's
Lumpy196
Handgun choices are very personal. There a lot of variables, to include you hand size and your training and ability.
Stick with a common model from a KNOWN manufacturer with a PROVEN track record of reliability in extreme conditions. Make sure it's 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP or .38spl/.357 magnum.
Go figure, the best answer in this thread...
I try not to fixate on the pistol, I try to shoot them all well, then it really does not matter. I can use what ever is on hand, or what ever falls into my lap and shoot well with it..
Glock's
Sigs
S&W's
1911's
Beretta's
H&K's
I've shot them all, they all work and if you can master front sight and trigger press, you can hit with all of them... find one you like that fits good and your solid...
When the SHTF, I'll go for one of my ARs. If I'm still using a handgun, I'm behind the curve already.
Gutshot John
10-27-08, 20:47
When the SHTF, I'll go for one of my ARs. If I'm still using a handgun, I'm behind the curve already.
Would you carry two in case the first goes "click"?
I would want a CZ85 combat, G21, G17 or ruger P90, in that order.
I sold my Glock 17 25 years ago and I haven't wanted one since, ever. I know lots of people love them but I don't. I'd go with a S&W M&P 45 along with my 1911's, POF AR, and recently acquired GAP Crusader. I now have all bases covered from CQB to 700 yards.
I would want a CZ85 combat,
Heh, good choice. Always glad to see a fellow CZ dude out there, particularly the 85 Combat, my favorite model!
Gunfighter13
11-02-08, 02:51
1911............................
Any of the SIG's, but probably one in 9mm due to ammo availablity.
They're highly reliable, tough as a boot, very accurate right out of the box, no manual safety to forget about and their trigger system allows for a second strike capability without cycling the slide.
Another plus is that a blown case (they can and DO happen) will of course cause a stoppage, but won't destroy the pistol's frame or parts like you'd be risking with a polymer gun - BTDT. If it's truly SHTF time ammo might be whatever you can get your hands on and replacing the pistol would be impossible.
In such a situation such as this I'll take required lubrication after 500 rds. over risking the pistol becoming useless due to a single bad round.
Some here also seem to be unaware the Glock isn't the only pistol that has no fitted parts and is easily serviced by the end-user. All parts in SIG's are also straight drop in and no special tools are required. It's actually a very simple pistol to work on.
Some here also seem to be unaware the Glock isn't the only pistol that has no fitted parts and is easily serviced by the end-user. All parts in SIG's are also straight drop in and no special tools are required. It's actually a very simple pistol to work on.
Actually, almost every modern non-1911 (pardon me for those who consider that redundant) pistol is like that. Berettas, Smith M&Ps, Glocks, SIGs, HKs ... just about everything, really. What sets SIG apart is that they were the pioneers for the "no fitting" design. When the P220 first came out, the armorer program involved taking all the guns in class, tearing them down, mixing all the parts in a bin, then having each student rebuild the gun with randomly chosen parts. After that, they would actually shoot the guns to demonstrate that, no matter how mixed up things got, any P220 barrel would fit in any P220 slide, which fit on any P220 frame, with any P220 trigger bar, etc.
SIG still does that as part of their armorer program, but they don't shoot the guns afterwards.
Actually, almost every modern non-1911 (pardon me for those who consider that redundant) pistol is like that. Berettas, Smith M&Ps, Glocks, SIGs, HKs ... just about everything, really.
That's a very good point but, the Glocks are the easiest to disassemble/reassemble...IMHO. ;)
I wanted the most reliable and easiest handgun to maintain/repair to fill the "handgun" portion of my SHTF kit. It's a fact that the Glock's don't work the best in the comfort/handling department for many people. I still think it's hard to beat them for the intended purpose.
No doubt, there is nothing on the market as easy to work on & repair as a Glock, assuming you have spare parts lying around. Nothing even comes close, IMHO.
When I was at Beretta, the head armorer instructor always used to brag that he could take apart & reassemble a 92FS as quickly as folks can do the same to a Glock. OK. Maybe. He took them apart and put them back together for a living.
One of the head guys at SIG Academy used to say the same thing about a P226 vs. Glock while I was working there. Again, maybe if you 'smith on SIGs in your sleep.
I haven't taken a Glock apart in years and I bet I could do it right now with nothing but wire coat hanger in about two minutes. Quite a few SIG, Beretta, Smith, etc. kool-aid drinkers will admit that if they were getting hired to be a full time armorer, they'd push for Glocks.
The Glock is also no doubt the most likely to be rendered completely unservcieable due to an ammunition issue and quality of ammunition is a foreseeable issue in a sustained SHTF situation. I've experienced several blown cases over the years and witnessed many more. The Glock is the only one I've seen instantly turned into a paperweight by this (more than once) and that's not something I'd want to risk in a situation such as we're talking about here.
Reliability for a pistol is a matter of being able to fire up to 500 rounds completely malfunction free without attention and that it continue to remain seviceable in the long haul while digesting any available ammo of the correct caliber. The Glock fits the first half of this bill well, but it's been my observation that it can fail in the latter.
As for how quickly a pistol can be completely disassembled, that's a non-issue. We're not talking about breaking a pistol down and making repairs during a fight, just the capability of complete disassembly in order to have long term sustainability. What's important in such a scenario is just that the user be capable of full disassembly for either parts replacement or detailed cleaning, not how quickly they can perform this.
The SIG - like several others - actually doesn't require a high degree of skill or large number of tools to tear down. It appears as if some here only have a detailed knowledge of one type of handgun and assume others require near gunsmith skills to disassemble and change out parts.
The SIG - like several others - actually doesn't require a high degree of skill or large number of tools to tear down.
I've watched many people learn how to disassemble and reassemble a SIG P22x-series gun in a single day. I've even taught people how to do it myself once while I was working there. I've watched many people learn how to disassemble and reassemble a Glock in an hour, and have taught plenty of people how to do that, too.
You can take a Glock apart with almost any available "tool" ... which is why I mentioned the wire hanger. Not true of the SIG. There are any number of steps in the SIG assembly process which require specific knowledge or techniques to make work. Getting the locking insert in properly, installing the sear, lining up the rebound spring in the proper orientation to the hammer, getting the sear spring in place ... The end of the world? No. But a lot more complex than anything you have to do with a Glock.
Ever see someone make the mistake of installing the mag catch retaining pin upside down on a SIG? I have. Result? Dead gun. Nothing comparable to mess up with the Glock.
It appears as if some here only have a detailed knowledge of one type of handgun and assume others require near gunsmith skills to disassemble and change out parts.
I'm sure that's true. There are also some here who have detailed knowledge of lots of different systems, and it would be a mistake to assume personal preference is automatically a sign of broader ignorance. Just something to keep in mind ...
Todd,
What are your opinions of the H&K P30? Seems with the adjustable panels, the nitrided slide and barrel, it would be a nice choice.
Aud -- I have fairly limited time behind one. One of the other mods carries one daily and may have some better info.
The samples I've seen appear well made, as one would expect from H&K. The trigger is ok, though far from great; and, my understanding is that it's no easy task to improve it. The mag release is a matter of personal preference; I don't mind it though it takes me a little time to get used to. The same is true for the decocker position; at first I disliked it, then after a little time shooting the gun I came to like it enough that I might actually prefer it to a more traditional frame-mounted location.
If I were in the market for a TDA 9mm, the P30 would probably be the one I'd buy.
Whether people can be instructed in how to completely disassemble their pistol in one hour or a few hours really makes no difference, as long as the average user can become capable of performing this and no special tools are required.
As for complexity of disassembly/reassembly, the SIG is greater than the Glock but on par with the AR and most here don't seem to see this as tough. As you stated, all that's required is the knowledge to orient a few items correctly during reassembly. After once or twice of doing this people have it down - no huge tricks involved - same as their AR.
What you say is true, the Glock can be disassembled using nothing more than a coat hanger, but it's not as if the SIG really requires much more. If necessary they can be disassembled in the field using nothing more than an average multiblade pocket knife. BTDT, it just uglies up the grip screws. :(
That being said, in a SHTF scenario ease of complete disassembly of a pistol isn't near as important as it's ability to remain in service long term while using whatever ammo can be scrounged. Just one weak case can render a Glock permanently useless and due to it's lack of second strike capability one hard to ignite primer at the wrong time can render it's user permanently dead. This second issue is a primary reason this pistol hasn't seen widespread military acceptance.
The Glock is an okay handgun but you've got to be careful what you feed it. In a case like we're talking about here I'd choose the SIG.
I like Sig's, but the Glock is a no brainer.
And this is from a 1911 guy...
The Glock armorer class is simple compared to the Sig pistol Armorer class. Most guys I know issued P226R's - would prefer to be issue a Glock for Mil usage.
As we all know, this is a great debate to have but in the final analysis, we as Armericans will have as many choices as we have preferences and opinions:D
We also tend to be a little more invested in our personal gun choices. It's never about purely mechanical reliability or ergonomics or name branding or even "the right price". Plastic or steel or alloy? Magazine capacity and the price and availability of them. There used to be hardly anyone who would admit to a "lesser" caliber like the 9mmX19 and now due to the fluctuations in supply and demand and price of metals, the 9mmX19 has become the new favourite. :p
If and when Obama becomes president (God forbid), the debate will become moot and we may never return to things the way they were. The next ban will not be for 10years but more permanent along with confiscations and etc. All the "pry it from my cold dead fingers" rhetoric will fly out the window and most (98%) of Americans will comply. Because we have become a nations of sheep and we love our comforts and entertainment (be it sports or TV or electronics) too damn much - too many couch potatoes and warrior wannabees. :(
Glock 19- with some backup G17 mags.
Beat Trash
11-03-08, 14:45
As we all know, this is a great debate to have but in the final analysis, we as Armericans will have as many choices as we have preferences and opinions:D
We also tend to be a little more invested in our personal gun choices. It's never about purely mechanical reliability or ergonomics or name branding or even "the right price". Plastic or steel or alloy? Magazine capacity and the price and availability of them. There used to be hardly anyone who would admit to a "lesser" caliber like the 9mmX19 and now due to the fluctuations in supply and demand and price of metals, the 9mmX19 has become the new favourite. :p
If and when Obama becomes president (God forbid), the debate will become moot and we may never return to things the way they were. The next ban will not be for 10years but more permanent along with confiscations and etc. All the "pry it from my cold dead fingers" rhetoric will fly out the window and most (98%) of Americans will comply. Because we have become a nations of sheep and we love our comforts and entertainment (be it sports or TV or electronics) too damn much - too many couch potatoes and warrior wannabees. :(
It is this possibility that makes the durability of a sidearm and it's ability to be easily serviced, all that much more important.
It was this logic, after much thought and research, that led me to the Glock 19. This was when Clinton was President, and I was looking to obtain guns to be set aside for my children. The idea was to have guns available for them, should they not be permitted to buy them once they reach the age of 21.
I hope for the best, yet I have started to plan for the worst.
SingleStacker45
11-03-08, 17:55
I may be no expert but I have good mechanical skills and have been shooting glocks and sigs for almost 15 years. Both are excellent pistols and both are finding there way to our military's special forces community. I dont think one would be at a disadvantage owning either. As for the percieved advantage of a second strike capability it does not carry alot of weight since there are more glocks and 1911's carried by our special forces than sigs. Pick whatever gun fits your hand well and you can hit the target with.
Mule
Glock 17 and a lot of mags
Aud -- I have fairly limited time behind one. One of the other mods carries one daily and may have some better info.
The samples I've seen appear well made, as one would expect from H&K. The trigger is ok, though far from great; and, my understanding is that it's no easy task to improve it. The mag release is a matter of personal preference; I don't mind it though it takes me a little time to get used to. The same is true for the decocker position; at first I disliked it, then after a little time shooting the gun I came to like it enough that I might actually prefer it to a more traditional frame-mounted location.
If I were in the market for a TDA 9mm, the P30 would probably be the one I'd buy.
As a southpaw, I find the P30 to be very lefty friendly. (Much friendlier than the G19 from which I transitioned.) I prefer the paddle mag release, and the ambi slide stop is very easy to use. As one of the current crop of "fittable" guns, it offers many options to tailor the grip to one's preference. I find it much more comfortable to shoot than the G19. I think most people who handle one would say it's a subjectively "nicer" gun than the Glock. (Not that it means squat on a fighting tool...)
That said, the TDA trigger takes work to master. I personally prefer the trigger of striker fired guns such as the M&P and Glock, but there were other reasons I chose the P30. Gear for the P30 is an issue. No one is making a P30 blue/red trainer currently. (At least as far as I'm aware. Someone PLEASE correct me and point me in the right direction if I'm mistaken about this...) There are a few holster makers out there making P30 gear, but most of it is directed toward 3:00-4:00 carry. If one carries in a less conventional manner, such as appendix, the availability of acceptable holsters for the P30 shrinks dramatically. The Glock wins here hands-down. The P30 is also more expensive than the Glock or M&P by a very wide margin.
All in all, I really like my P30. I am very confident in my ability to use it effectively. However, when it comes to ease of maintenance/repair, wide availability of magazines, low cost of ownership, ease of acquiring an identical model if the primary is lost/ditched in a bad situation and general reliability, it's really tough to argue with the G17/G19. That's where my vote goes...
Whether people can be instructed in how to completely disassemble their pistol in one hour or a few hours really makes no difference, as long as the average user can become capable of performing this and no special tools are required.
In the context of this thread, "SHTF" nee TEOTWAWKI nee Zombie Day, I'd argue it's a significant difference insofar as field repair of the gun is going to be an issue at all.
As you stated, all that's required is the knowledge to orient a few items correctly during reassembly. After once or twice of doing this people have it down - no huge tricks involved - same as their AR.
Again, I would have to disagree based on eight years experience working for first Beretta and then SIG. More complicated guns = more mistakes by armorers. This is especially true when the "armorer" only takes a gun apart once or twice a year. It's pretty easy to forget all the necessary steps to installing a SIG locking insert, or to mess up the orientation of the mag catch spring pin. Once you've done it a hundred times you'll probably never make a mistake, but it's a much more challenging gun to take apart and put back together on your own the first few times.
That being said, in a SHTF scenario ease of complete disassembly of a pistol isn't near as important as it's ability to remain in service long term while using whatever ammo can be scrounged. Just one weak case can render a Glock permanently useless and due to it's lack of second strike capability one hard to ignite primer at the wrong time can render it's user permanently dead.
Re: unsupported chambers, I agree. This is much, much less an issue in 9mm Glocks, however, and so far I think it's been 9mm Glocks folks have overwhelmingly suggested for the SHTF Gun.
Re: second strike capability, I used to feel that way, too. But again, I spent eight years working for companies whose products had that capability and we used to push it very hard as a selling point. But the question is this: how many hard primers have you run into that have gone off on the second strike? I shoot a lot of handgun ammo, and it's very rare in my experience assuming you have an otherwise reliable gun.
I've got over 56,000 rounds through my current M&P9. There have been two ammunition-induced stoppages. One was a blown primer. The other was a dead primer (four hits and it wouldn't go off). Neither of those would have been resolved by multiple strike capability.
I don't think multi-strike is bad, but it's benefit is extremely small and not enough to sway me away from an otherwise more suitable gun.
This second issue is a primary reason this pistol hasn't seen widespread military acceptance.
I'd venture to guess that Glock has won a larger share of modern military contracts than most of its competitors. It's not in widespread use within the U.S. military forces because the military already has a standard sidearm and few units are authorized to look beyond that standard issue item. Of those that can, quite a few actually do choose Glock.
dialM4murder
11-05-08, 00:36
Good post Todd.
Thanks, dialM. :cool:
Coming to the realization -- and public admission -- that multi-strike capability is of such limited value was very hard for me. I sang its praises for many years. But eventually a couple of friends and I sat down, went through old training logs and tried to remember instances of stoppages that were fixable with a second trigger pull. I think I've had one with normal ammo. One. Ever.
I've had quite a few with non-tox ammo, though, and if I was forced to carry that it might weigh heavily on my opinion.
I am surprised no one has mentioned the Springfield XD!
It is in every as simple as a glock (minus the grip safety). I own a second gen Glock 19, but prefer the feel of the XD much more. Some say the weight of the Glock is an asset, but I prefer the slightly heavier feeling and grip angle of the XD.
I have an older HS 2000 9mm (predecessor to the XD when Springfield first started importing them). My old HS 2000 9mm has over 5000 rounds through it without ANY malfunction. I also have an XD 45 tactical and 9mm subcompact. I cant say enough about these pistols.
As for the percieved advantage of a second strike capability it does not carry alot of weight since there are more glocks and 1911's carried by our special forces than sigs.In truth, the SIG is carried by far more members of the US Special Operations Command than any other pistol. Only a relative handful are actually issued those custom built 1911's. The Glock is not a standardized type issued to any US military personnel, but might be used by a very few on a unit level procurement basis.
To give a better understanding of this, the number of SIG pistols issued by our military is so great that SIG actually maintains production of a particular model solely for their use. It's no longer even a catalogued item with SIG, but the US military's demand is high enough to justify their continued production.
Beat Trash
11-05-08, 15:51
To give a better understanding of this, the number of SIG pistols issued by our military is so great that SIG actually maintains production of a particular model solely for their use. It's no longer even a catalogued item with SIG, but the US military's demand is high enough to justify their continued production.
Would that item be the Sig 228, AKA the M11 pistol?
Yep. It's the only two piece slide 'Classic Series' type pistol that SIG still manufactures. Not that they're any better than the newer design, only that our military hasn't updated their specs to accept the newer type slides.
Point being that it's manufactured completely different from this newer design but the number in use by this single purchaser justifies SIG maintaining a production line for them.
Our military forces actually issue a lot of SIG pistols, primarily in the SpecOps field. They're also standard issue for all special investigations personnel from every branch of our military.
I've worked as an operater/instructor/armorer for close to 30 years in both the military and law enforcement arenas. Over the years I've both utilized and been assigned as an armorer on multiple types of firearms. When it comes to accuracy, reliability, use of varying qualities of ammunition and long term maintainability/survivabilty in a pistol, I'll take the SIG.
In truth, the SIG is carried by far more members of the US Special Operations Command than any other pistol.
No. The M9 is carried by far more than the SIG. Far, far more.
To give a better understanding of this, the number of SIG pistols issued by our military is so great that SIG actually maintains production of a particular model solely for their use. It's no longer even a catalogued item with SIG, but the US military's demand is high enough to justify their continued production.
That's absolutely untrue. The number of P228's (M11's) purchased by DoD is very small compared to the number of M9s. In fact, I'd be willing to bet DoD purchased more Glocks over the past few years than SIGs. The P228 isn't produced in the U.S. and never has been. It's always been a German-made gun. Germany continues to build them as demand requires for a number of customers around the world.
toddackerman
11-06-08, 19:39
What would peoples choice be for a handgun used exclusively for combat(SHTF) use?
Take into account, that spare parts may or may not be available. And that you probably won't have anyone who can repair your pistol if you can't.
1911. You only need a spare extractor and Slide Stop, and they are very easy to asssemble. 230 Gn Federal HST JHP cartridges, and my beloved Tripp Cobra Mags.
SingleStacker45
11-06-08, 20:21
In truth, the SIG is carried by far more members of the US Special Operations Command than any other pistol. Only a relative handful are actually issued those custom built 1911's. The Glock is not a standardized type issued to any US military personnel, but might be used by a very few on a unit level procurement basis.
To give a better understanding of this, the number of SIG pistols issued by our military is so great that SIG actually maintains production of a particular model solely for their use. It's no longer even a catalogued item with SIG, but the US military's demand is high enough to justify their continued production.
I stand corrected but the tip of the spear recently switched from 1911's to glock. As for second strike capability I think and have been coached by the best to tap rack and bang. Mostly because all my instructors use 1911 or glocks. If a round does not go off the first time your chances are less than 50/50 it will go off the second time. And as we know time will be of the esence. That being said there is nothing wrong with a Sig. I just prefer something simpler.
Mule
No. The M9 is carried by far more than the SIG. Far, far more.
That's absolutely untrue. The number of P228's (M11's) purchased by DoD is very small compared to the number of M9s. In fact, I'd be willing to bet DoD purchased more Glocks over the past few years than SIGs. The P228 isn't produced in the U.S. and never has been. It's always been a German-made gun. Germany continues to build them as demand requires for a number of customers around the world.The M9 is of course carried by more US military personnel overall, but not within the Special Operations Command.
You're correct that DoD has purchased a large number of Glock pistols over the past several years - but that doesn't mean this number are going into the hands of our troops. They're procured under DoD contract for use by foreign nation personnel.
Per their contracts, all producers of US military weapons must have manufacturing facilities for these items located within this country. Examples of this are Beretta's Maryland facility they opened when they landed the M9 contract and FN's S. Carolina plant they had to open for M16, M240 and M249 production.
The M9 is of course carried by more US military personnel overall, but not within the Special Operations Command.
I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. 75th Ranger RGT: M9. SFG(A)'s: primarily M9s (and those that aren't carrying M9s are carrying something other than SIGs). Those two organizations alone far outnumber the SEALs, who are the only large SOCOM asset issued SIGs as a primary sidearm.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information. Mine comes from being the Govt & Military Projects Manager at SIG from 2002 until 2007. I think I've got a reasonable handle on who's got SIGs in SOCOM. :cool:
You're correct that DoD has purchased a large number of Glock pistols over the past several years - but that doesn't mean this number are going into the hands of our troops. They're procured under DoD contract for use by foreign nation personnel.
It's very true that DOD has bought many Glocks for other countries, but there are DOD-purchased Glocks in the hands of thousands of U.S. soldiers.
Per their contracts, all producers of US military weapons must have manufacturing facilities for these items located within this country. Examples of this are Beretta's Maryland facility they opened when they landed the M9 contract and FN's S. Carolina plant they had to open for M16, M240 and M249 production.
It's only "per their contracts" if that language is in the contract. Many .mil units are issued the H&K 416, which is not manufactured in the U.S.
You yourself pointed out earlier in this thread how many SIG P228's are still around, and those were at best assembled in the U.S. from German-made parts. Beretta was allowed to do the same thing (assemble in U.S. from Italian parts) for the first 10,000 guns of the M9 contract, but then major parts production had to be in the U.S.
Currently, most new contracts are simply covered by the "Buy America" clause, which has so many loopholes that a gun produced 100% overseas can still qualify as "American" as long as it's built in the right country.
Thank you Todd,
and I think this thread is done.
SinnFéinM1911
11-07-08, 12:31
DOD-purchased Glocks in the hands of thousands of U.S. soldiers.
.
That is not true. In total of US Troops, there is prb less than 250. Very far from thousands. I'm not sure where you have got your info from. There are only 2 assets to the US Mil that can deploy with Glocks. There are some who will try and make you believe otherwise. Some units here are able to buy them, but it is more for Fam Fire and instruction only.
Those same 2 assets are the ONLY people inside of the US mil that have and are authorized 416's. Not MANY.
Ben Lenett
11-08-08, 05:28
It's very true that DOD has bought many Glocks for other countries, but there are DOD-purchased Glocks in the hands of thousands of U.S. soldiers.
.
Todd:
That is spot on. There are four DOD SOF organizations that issue either Glock 22s, Glock 17s, or Glock 19s as their primary pistol. In addition to that there are elements within SF ODAs that have made individual unit level purchases of Glock 17s, 19s, and 21s prior to deploying.
None of the above in close hold, but several of the above organizations are not familiar to 99% of people.
Ben
Hard to choose. Here are the contenders:
1) Lorcin
2) Bryco-Jennings
3) Jimenez Arms
4) Hi-Point
I think I'd have to go with the Lorcin.
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