View Full Version : Remington faces default
Considering all the crazy stuff going on, I'd be surprised if people were buying less firearms, even with the current POTUS. I suspect people are just buying fewer Remingtons, but I have not seen recent sales figures for the industry.
Gunmaker Remington faces default as Americans buy fewer firearms
Remington Outdoor, the second-largest U.S. gunmaker has suffered a “rapid” and “sharp” deterioration in sales and a similar drop in profits since January, and faces “continued softness in consumer demand for firearms,” credit analysts at Standard & Poor’s Global Ratings said in a report Friday.
S&P as a result has cut the company’s corporate credit rating — already at a junk-bond-level CCC+ — two full notches, to CCC-, a move likely to make the company’s high-yield debt less attractive to investors and lenders, and force Remington to pay more in interest. The company could face a change in control, bankruptcy, or default on its debt by next year.
A backlog of unsold, unwanted firearms will force Remington to operate at a loss and “pressure the company’s sales and profitability at least through early 2018, resulting in insufficient cash flow for debt service and fixed charges,” unless Remington gives up cash to pay for ongoing operations, S&P adds.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/gunmaker-remington-faces-default-as-americans-buy-fewer-firearms-20171117.html
I think the problem isn't that people aren't buying guns, it's that Remington no longer offers anything people want to buy.
I love my Remington 700's, 1187's and 870's and personally haven't had any trouble with any of them. But what they did to Marlin after they bought them and moved production from Connecticut to Ilion was an absolute nightmare.
Bought my son a Marlin 336Y (Spike Horn). Had to send it back 3 times. Finally refused to take it back so they gave us a new one. The new one is OK, it still isn't what a Marlin made Marlin's used to be.
As mentioned, gun sales are down for everyone. Remington could really help themselves by upping their quality. If they don't, well we'll see....
NYH1.
Dist. Expert 26
11-26-17, 09:32
I think the problem isn't that people aren't buying guns, it's that Remington no longer offers anything people want to buy.
This.
Just looking specifically at the precision rifle market, every other manufacturer offers a rifle capable of shooting a PRS match out of the box. Remington has nothing.
I think the problem isn't that people aren't buying guns, it's that Remington no longer offers anything people want to buy.
I would say it has to do with them not offering anything anyone wants at the quality people want. I mean how many here look at big green and go "yep that one high quality company." I don't. They cut their own throat last year up here when they told their wholesalers to get ****ed and that only Walmart would get their primo shotshell line, which considering trap and skeet up here is as thick as theives it hurt them when word got out on that, and Federal been making a steady headway, and other than their hull, they probably make a better shell tham Remington anyway.
This.
Just looking specifically at the precision rifle market, every other manufacturer offers a rifle capable of shooting a PRS match out of the box. Remington has nothing.
Let's not forget the R51 fiasco either, they were 450 when they hit the market, local store has them at 174 after mail in rebate. Or their 1911 offerings which aren't inspiring.
This.
Just looking specifically at the precision rifle market, every other manufacturer offers a rifle capable of shooting a PRS match out of the box. Remington has nothing.
Exactly, even the venerable 700 is no longer that impressive. When I wanted a bolt gun I got a Tikka.
It's a shame, really, what Remington did to themselves. I can remember when the 700's, 870's an 1100's were the hunting arms to have.
Outlander Systems
11-26-17, 09:42
Remington should cut the bullshit and do this:
Up the quality on the 870 and 700. Sell only those two weapons. The end.
Dist. Expert 26
11-26-17, 09:43
What's particularly sad is that the majority of shooters are still running actions based on the 700.
If they just put one together that didn't need trued, had a good barrel, good trigger, DBM chassis, came in .260 and/or 6.5, and was under 2k they could be relevant again.
diving dave
11-26-17, 09:55
I still want one of their 300 BO bolt guns, but other than that they have nothing going..
What's particularly sad is that the majority of shooters are still running actions based on the 700.
If they just put one together that didn't need trued, had a good barrel, good trigger, DBM chassis, came in .260 and/or 6.5, and was under 2k they could be relevant again.
I have a 20+ year old 700 in .270 that is, and has been, my go-to deer rifle. The zero has not changed since I first sighted it in all those years ago, and it shoots cloverleafs with Hornady 140 grain LM. Sadly that does not sound like the case with current production Remington 700's.
Ammo sales have tanked since the election as well.
That and all the above.
Remington should cut the bullshit and do this:
Up the quality on the 870 and 700. Sell only those two weapons. The end.
And the real ACR... like 5 years ago. A lot of people are moving towards a buy once mentality, and tend to buy more expensive high quality stuff. Maybe I’m wrong, but the lower quality cheap ass gun market seems to be a dying market. And Rem just comes out with cheap stuff.
Dist. Expert 26
11-26-17, 10:19
I have a 20+ year old 700 in .270 that is, and has been, my go-to deer rifle. The zero has not changed since I first sighted it in all those years ago, and it shoots cloverleafs with Hornady 140 grain LM. Sadly that does not sound like the case with current production Remington 700's.
They're still perfectly acceptable deer rifles. But that's a far cry from competing with the other factory precision rifles on the market.
As a person with a Winchester 70 and a Winchester 1300 I'm all...
smuganimegirl.jpeg
about the whole deal.
Screw 700s. Remington had one job. Part of me retains some sentimentality for the old 870 but....meh.
Benellis exist.
I have a soft spot for Big Green & hopeful they can turn things around...this vid sorta reminds me of Winchester and the pre-64 days & what remmy did then vs. now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXh9q4TnCNw&feature=youtu.be
I collect their early stuff & recently acquired a mint '63 700 ADL Deluxe Carbine in 222 with the notched receiver & Favorite is a 40X 22lr sporter repeater. Still shoot my Great-Grandmothers 722 in 257 Roberts from time to time. Their upper end line in the VSSF, sendero & 700 AAC's / 5R's seem to still shoot well, but in general kinda hard to excited about most new hunting guns, when the older stuff was made with more pride & quality.
I don't think it stops at Remington. Remington is once firearm manufacture out of dozens that are suffering right now.
gunnerblue
11-26-17, 11:35
Exactly, even the venerable 700 is no longer that impressive. When I wanted a bolt gun I got a Tikka.
This seems to be the case more and more.
The precision rifle market occupies a much smaller percentage of the total than hunters and regular rifle shooters.
Dist. Expert 26
11-26-17, 12:16
The precision rifle market occupies a much smaller percentage of the total than hunters and regular rifle shooters.
Tell that to Ruger and their success with the RPR.
ramairthree
11-26-17, 12:18
We can blame Remington and Marlin, etc. for a lot of this.
But at the end of the day,
The consumer has spoken.
We are a fickle lot.
We claim we want high quality, excellent quality control, fine products,
Then run to Walmart, Harbor Freight, etc. and buy cheap Chinese crap.
While losing their job where they unionized and drove production overseas.
While their bosses upped executive salaries and bonuses while killing the company to the point nobody was interested in their products.
While government regulations and costs of compliance clamps the nostrils shut on the noses of companies treading water.
Companies, unless bailed out by the government, cannot just kick debt down the road endlessly and stay in business,
Unlike a government that does so.
Pick up your old pre 64 model 70 Winchester,
The Remington 700 that has been in your family for decades, etc.
What would the production cost of that be in America now?
How many would pay it?
It’s not just guns.
You used to be able to get good quality, American Made Craftsman tools.
People wanted cheaper.
You used to be able to go to a mall in Savannah and Ruby Tuesday would have nice, fresh baked dark bread with honey butter, twice baked potatoes that were actually made with fresh incredible, broiled grouper that was actually caught that day, etc. Now they have frozen pre made crap.
Optima batteries are now crap with bad cells frequently.
The list is endless of things consumers did not want to pay for, and have turned to crap.
Regs and compliance wise, we can’t compete with production in other counties.
Labor, salary, and benefits wise, we can’t compete with labor in other countries.
Executive and management wise, we can’t compete with other models that don’t drain so much into non producers.
And you can’t survive trying to sell high quality to cheap bastards that won’t pay for it.
This is the country where a man founding a company that has not made a profit in decades has become a billionaire 100 times over.
But many a high quality company selling American made products has gone out of business.
In other news, Black Friday just set a 1-day background check record on guns.... so even though sales across the industry may be slow, this tells me A) nobody is stupid enough anymore to think it will last, and B) therefore this is a Remington issue not a slow market issue...
I think the problem isn't that people aren't buying guns, it's that Remington no longer offers anything people want to buy.
Nah, plenty of Rem "classics" still in demand (870/700), just I think they're another victim of being a previously-successful "legacy" company that got both complacent with their place at the head of the table, and money-hungry...
*edit* and it seems Ramair beat me to it with that last line...
I would say it has to do with them not offering anything anyone wants at the quality people want. I mean how many here look at big green and go "yep that one high quality company." I don't. They cut their own throat last year up here when they told their wholesalers to get ****ed and that only Walmart would get their primo shotshell line, which considering trap and skeet up here is as thick as theives it hurt them when word got out on that, and Federal been making a steady headway, and other than their hull, they probably make a better shell tham Remington anyway.
What's particularly sad is that the majority of shooters are still running actions based on the 700.
If they just put one together that didn't need trued, had a good barrel, good trigger, DBM chassis, came in .260 and/or 6.5, and was under 2k they could be relevant again.
Remington should cut the bullshit and do this:
Up the quality on the 870 and 700. Sell only those two weapons. The end.
Both of those.
> Seriously address the "hardcore precision" market *as well as* the "budget" precision market, since it seems to me that's where a significant portion of 700 sales go. For guys like me who want to buy a decent barreled action to drop in a simple chassis to get a basic precision rifle going without paying $5k+ and still want something that'll shoot to a reasonable standard of accuracy and reliability, the current crop of 700s just doesn't seem to deliver. In fact over the last few years of research, and sort of hanging around the precision community, the off-the-shelf 700 line is one of the few things I seem to hear consistently worse reviews every year...
Half the precision shooting world is built on the 700 action, and for the company who designed the thing to not be able to turn out consistent rifles is just....sad.
> Stop trying to build "modern" pistols, they suck at it, and there's really not much wiggle room on the market for a company to do better for less $ with current offerings that are already far better than anything Remington can keep pace with.
> Drop or re-profile their AR line as well. It's nice that they want to cater to the semi-auto hunting market, but their price vs. features is outrageous.
> Fix their 870s. 'Nuff said. I had an 870-E tactical, and the finish *is* actually as bad as everyone said (it tries to rust if you look at it funny), the whole thing feels... loose and "clacky" for lack of a better word, and it chokes with Remington bird/sport loads (yes, that's right, it doesn't like its own ammo)... Kinda had me wondering how Rem has been the standard for pump action shotguns for so long...
> Their bulk .22 is nasty, and most of the rest of their basic ammo is also just "meh". Perhaps after they fix their glaring gun issues, they could make some small improvements here as well.
An Undocumented Worker
11-26-17, 16:06
I remember contacting their customer support years ago and telling them that I wouldn't buy any of their products anymore until they drop the failure rate of their .22 ammo to well below 10%. Had an 870 shotgun that would drop shells out of the loading port if you cycled it quickly. They also just never sold anything remotely interesting either, so eff em.
They hired Robert Nardelli, who after getting canned at GE, ran Home Depot into the ground, then joined Chrysler and drove them into Bankruptcy, with credentials like that, Remington could not scoop him up fast enough, even though Nardelli was named as one of the "Worst American CEOs of All Time.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Straight Shooter
11-26-17, 17:07
I live about 4 miles from the Huntsville plant, and work less than two miles from it, with people who have worked at Remington before coming to my employer.
Had a guy tell me several months ago, they didnt know "if theyd be making guns or sweeping the floor all night" when they went in. I said on here many months back I thought theyd be gone by Christmas 2017. Looks like I wasnt too far off.
Its a DAMN SHAME. I grew up with these guns. THEY WERE GOOD GUNS. The old one are STILL good guns. My old 788 .243 was an incredibly accurate gun. All the old 870's Ive owned were very good guns. The 1100's Ive used to drop countless doves were great. The Marlin 30-30's Ive had have killed numerous deer. But, know what?
SCREW EM. They wanna make junk-Id rather see them go completely out of business. MAYBE someone who gives damn can buy them and start things right again.
They hired Robert Nardelli, who after getting canned at GE, ran Home Depot into the ground, then joined Chrysler and drove them into Bankruptcy, with credentials like that, Remington could not scoop him up fast enough, even though Nardelli was named as one of the "Worst American CEOs of All Time.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Sort of like bad college or NFL coaches. They make a career of running their companies into the ground and then getting fired with a multi-million dollar severance package. That'll learn 'em.
FlyingHunter
11-26-17, 17:48
Consider the contrast of Ruger. When I was growing up, Ruger was but a shadow under the behemoth of Remington's market dominance. Ruger was also as FUDD as a gun company could be but they listened their customers, looked at emerging trends, quickly shifted to keep agile. Now today they have integrated suppressor 10/22's, suppressor ready everything, an amazing for the price precision rifle, solid AR platforms, the popular LCP line, cheap but very effective "American Rifle" series, and donate millions to the NRA every year. Good on Ruger for keeping their entrepreneurial fires alive, staying customer centric, and innovating products people want to buy. Remington has not produced anything me or my buddies have wanted to purchase in quite some time. My next firearm purchase is likely going to be a Ruger, - Mark IV lite .22 with rail and threaded barrel. Remington needs new innovative leadership and quit riding the laurels of their 1960's legacy before they become Eastern airlines.
ramairthree
11-26-17, 17:53
Yep.
And if Ruger would put out a SS Mini14 with the old style folding stock and some factory high cap SS magazines,
They would have sold everyone they can make plus have a wait8ng list.
titsonritz
11-26-17, 17:57
They hired Robert Nardelli, who after getting canned at GE, ran Home Depot into the ground, then joined Chrysler and drove them into Bankruptcy, with credentials like that, Remington could not scoop him up fast enough, even though Nardelli was named as one of the "Worst American CEOs of All Time.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I guess they didn't want to wait for Ron Cohen to become available.
The decline in quality products on all fronts is endemic.
American corporations are owned by financial conglomerates mostly.
They rape the brand for every thing it will produce and let the quality dwindle.
Not much of anything left from the good ole days is half as good as it used to was,
and 2 to 3 times as expensive.
Consider the contrast of Ruger. When I was growing up, Ruger was but a shadow under the behemoth of Remington's market dominance. Ruger was also as FUDD as a gun company could be but they listened their customers, looked at emerging trends, quickly shifted to keep agile. Now today they have integrated suppressor 10/22's, suppressor ready everything, an amazing for the price precision rifle, solid AR platforms, the popular LCP line, cheap but very effective "American Rifle" series, and donate millions to the NRA every year. Good on Ruger for keeping their entrepreneurial fires alive, staying customer centric, and innovating products people want to buy. Remington has not produced anything me or my buddies have wanted to purchase in quite some time. My next firearm purchase is likely going to be a Ruger, - Mark IV lite .22 with rail and threaded barrel. Remington needs new innovative leadership and quit riding the laurels of their 1960's legacy before they become Eastern airlines.
Resting on past successes to their own detriment has sunk more than a few companies in all industries. I'd guess a legit comeback for Remington is not gonna happen. I'd like to see Colt make a real comeback but that's another topic...
My 870 had issues out of the box, like a lot of others. They took a very basic gun that had an awesome reputation for reliability and broke it. Sucks to suck. Their ammo is garbage too.
What they did to Marlin was absolutely heinous. The only company that produced a gate-loaded, side ejecting .357/.38 lever action and their QC is so bad they just gave up on the platform. Absolute shame.
BoringGuy45
11-26-17, 18:57
The decline in quality products on all fronts is endemic.
American corporations are owned by financial conglomerates mostly.
They rape the brand for every thing it will produce and let the quality dwindle.
Not much of anything left from the good ole days is half as good as it used to was,
and 2 to 3 times as expensive.
There's no more pride in the products anymore. It's about charts, stats, bottom lines, profit margins, and short term results. Plus, it's not a true capitalist system anymore. Capitalism is supposed to be about competition. But instead of competing, companies patent and copyright absolutely everything, contract for exclusive rights, and sue competition out of existence. And then, if people are fed up and don't want to use their low quality, overpriced services or products, they lobby the government to force people to purchase the services. And then, when everything goes to shit, they declare bankruptcy, and either jump out with a golden parachute, or negotiate a "restructuring" that really involves little to no change at all...after which they resume doing whatever bankrupted them in the first place, only with a few billion dollars of taxpayer-paid bailout money. Then they give themselves nice holiday bonuses while laying off hundreds of people at the bottom.
Wall Street is as much of a depraved, corrupt mess as the federal government.
FlyingHunter
11-26-17, 19:00
48912
The quality of this Remington is still hanging in there. It is strictly for close quarters work tho...
What aspects of Freedom group are doing well? This shouldn’t come as a surprise. These conglomerates aren’t generally in it for the long haul. They buy up companies and milk the profits as long as possible till they break the brand. Then dismantle and sell off. Then pick another target and destroy it. Sad that we as a nation don’t protect firearms makers as national security assets.
Remington needs to completely reinvent their marketing strategy. They need to fire nearly their entire engineering team and move somewhere more attractive than NY.
Remington can stay relevant if they improve quality on their legacy products and follow market trends and innovate. Remington must quit trying to sell legacy products at Walmart prices. It tarnishes their reputation and entire product lines are affected.
New products that don’t work like the R51 and RP9 cannot happen. They must do better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
11-26-17, 20:19
Couldn't happen to a better company.
Remember that Remington's present owners have a history of buying companies on the downward, making their books look good by increasing profits (by reducing costs, e.g. cutting money for QA/QC and using less expensive materials), and then selling them to someone else. And they've been trying to sell Remington since 2013.
This is the same company, by the way, that sold Dodge to Fiat - who promptly improved the brand from poor to mediocre.
We can blame Remington and Marlin, etc. for a lot of this.
But at the end of the day,
The consumer has spoken.
We are a fickle lot.
We claim we want high quality, excellent quality control, fine products,
Then run to Walmart, Harbor Freight, etc. and buy cheap Chinese crap.
While losing their job where they unionized and drove production overseas.
While their bosses upped executive salaries and bonuses while killing the company to the point nobody was interested in their products.
While government regulations and costs of compliance clamps the nostrils shut on the noses of companies treading water.
Companies, unless bailed out by the government, cannot just kick debt down the road endlessly and stay in business,
Unlike a government that does so.
Pick up your old pre 64 model 70 Winchester,
The Remington 700 that has been in your family for decades, etc.
What would the production cost of that be in America now?
How many would pay it?
It’s not just guns.
You used to be able to get good quality, American Made Craftsman tools.
People wanted cheaper.
You used to be able to go to a mall in Savannah and Ruby Tuesday would have nice, fresh baked dark bread with honey butter, twice baked potatoes that were actually made with fresh incredible, broiled grouper that was actually caught that day, etc. Now they have frozen pre made crap.
Optima batteries are now crap with bad cells frequently.
The list is endless of things consumers did not want to pay for, and have turned to crap.
Regs and compliance wise, we can’t compete with production in other counties.
Labor, salary, and benefits wise, we can’t compete with labor in other countries.
Executive and management wise, we can’t compete with other models that don’t drain so much into non producers.
And you can’t survive trying to sell high quality to cheap bastards that won’t pay for it.
This is the country where a man founding a company that has not made a profit in decades has become a billionaire 100 times over.
But many a high quality company selling American made products has gone out of business.
Great post. If we could get everyone to agree on WHY those things are happening, we could get it turned around.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-27-17, 02:06
This.
Just looking specifically at the precision rifle market, every other manufacturer offers a rifle capable of shooting a PRS match out of the box. Remington has nothing.
What's particularly sad is that the majority of shooters are still running actions based on the 700.
If they just put one together that didn't need trued, had a good barrel, good trigger, DBM chassis, came in .260 and/or 6.5, and was under 2k they could be relevant again.
Tell that to Ruger and their success with the RPR.
The RPR should have been a real wake up call for Remington. For the price of a nice stock or chassis for the R700 action, you could have a whole gun... and then they brought out a new generation of it that addressed some issues all before Rem even noticed. Hell, Remington should have bought GA Precision or Defiance or Surgeon and/or McMillion/Manners and became the go-to guys for police sniper and PRS rifles.
I don't know where the money is in guns. These guys, if they are corporate ninjas, will look at 80/20 data on profits and sales and then cut and whack to get to a leaner company. That leaves little room for specialized or innovative products. It isn't all bad if you are trying to save a failing company, but to take one and run it continuously like that is not the recipe for growth and dominance.
We can blame Remington and Marlin, etc. for a lot of this.
But at the end of the day,
The consumer has spoken.
We are a fickle lot.
We claim we want high quality, excellent quality control, fine products,
Then run to Walmart, Harbor Freight, etc. and buy cheap Chinese crap.
While losing their job where they unionized and drove production overseas.
While their bosses upped executive salaries and bonuses while killing the company to the point nobody was interested in their products.
While government regulations and costs of compliance clamps the nostrils shut on the noses of companies treading water.
Companies, unless bailed out by the government, cannot just kick debt down the road endlessly and stay in business,
Unlike a government that does so.
Pick up your old pre 64 model 70 Winchester,
The Remington 700 that has been in your family for decades, etc.
What would the production cost of that be in America now?
How many would pay it?
It’s not just guns.
You used to be able to get good quality, American Made Craftsman tools.
People wanted cheaper.
You used to be able to go to a mall in Savannah and Ruby Tuesday would have nice, fresh baked dark bread with honey butter, twice baked potatoes that were actually made with fresh incredible, broiled grouper that was actually caught that day, etc. Now they have frozen pre made crap.
Optima batteries are now crap with bad cells frequently.
The list is endless of things consumers did not want to pay for, and have turned to crap.
Regs and compliance wise, we can’t compete with production in other counties.
Labor, salary, and benefits wise, we can’t compete with labor in other countries.
Executive and management wise, we can’t compete with other models that don’t drain so much into non producers.
And you can’t survive trying to sell high quality to cheap bastards that won’t pay for it.
This is the country where a man founding a company that has not made a profit in decades has become a billionaire 100 times over.
But many a high quality company selling American made products has gone out of business.
This.
In other news, Black Friday just set a 1-day background check record on guns.... so even though sales across the industry may be slow, this tells me A) nobody is stupid enough anymore to think it will last, and B) therefore this is a Remington issue not a slow market issue...
Nah, plenty of Rem "classics" still in demand (870/700), just I think they're another victim of being a previously-successful "legacy" company that got both complacent with their place at the head of the table, and money-hungry...
*edit* and it seems Ramair beat me to it with that last line...
Both of those.
> Seriously address the "hardcore precision" market *as well as* the "budget" precision market, since it seems to me that's where a significant portion of 700 sales go. For guys like me who want to buy a decent barreled action to drop in a simple chassis to get a basic precision rifle going without paying $5k+ and still want something that'll shoot to a reasonable standard of accuracy and reliability, the current crop of 700s just doesn't seem to deliver. In fact over the last few years of research, and sort of hanging around the precision community, the off-the-shelf 700 line is one of the few things I seem to hear consistently worse reviews every year...
Half the precision shooting world is built on the 700 action, and for the company who designed the thing to not be able to turn out consistent rifles is just....sad.
> Stop trying to build "modern" pistols, they suck at it, and there's really not much wiggle room on the market for a company to do better for less $ with current offerings that are already far better than anything Remington can keep pace with.
> Drop or re-profile their AR line as well. It's nice that they want to cater to the semi-auto hunting market, but their price vs. features is outrageous.
> Fix their 870s. 'Nuff said. I had an 870-E tactical, and the finish *is* actually as bad as everyone said (it tries to rust if you look at it funny), the whole thing feels... loose and "clacky" for lack of a better word, and it chokes with Remington bird/sport loads (yes, that's right, it doesn't like its own ammo)... Kinda had me wondering how Rem has been the standard for pump action shotguns for so long...
> Their bulk .22 is nasty, and most of the rest of their basic ammo is also just "meh". Perhaps after they fix their glaring gun issues, they could make some small improvements here as well.
All of this too.
Yep.
And if Ruger would put out a SS Mini14 with the old style folding stock and some factory high cap SS magazines,
They would have sold everyone they can make plus have a wait8ng list.
Dear sweet baby Jesus, Yes! Please! THIS! And somebody start making copies of the old Federal Ordnance underfolder that takes AR grips.
Anybody remember the .30 Remington AR? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Remington_AR
Don't feel bad, nobody else does either.
The R51 was a complete disaster. So much so that the new and improved ones that are supposed to work properly sit on gun store shelves collecting dust.
The RP9 is a complete cluster**** so much so that Remington seems to have postponed or cancelled the RP45 that it was supposed to be based off of.
They don't offer a 1911 with a rail. Even the one they labeled as "Tactical" doesn't have a rail. Not very tactical if I can't put a light on it.
The quality of their 870 Express is utter shit. Why should I spend the money one of them compared to the Savage/Stevens shotguns or a CZ shotgun, or any of the other cheap foreign made ones? Because they're made in NY? That's pretty much a communist state so might as well send my money to Turkey, same/same. (Relax, any future shotgun purchases for this guy will be Mossbergs.)
Yeah, I'm not seeing a reason to give Big Green any of my hard earned money when there are better options on the market. Sucks for all the Americans that will suffer a negative impact to their employment when Remington shuts down though. :(
The RPR should have been a real wake up call for Remington. For the price of a nice stock or chassis for the R700 action, you could have a whole gun... and then they brought out a new generation of it that addressed some issues all before Rem even noticed. Hell, Remington should have bought GA Precision or Defiance or Surgeon and/or McMillion/Manners and became the go-to guys for police sniper and PRS rifles.
I don't know where the money is in guns. These guys, if they are corporate ninjas, will look at 80/20 data on profits and sales and then cut and whack to get to a leaner company. That leaves little room for specialized or innovative products. It isn't all bad if you are trying to save a failing company, but to take one and run it continuously like that is not the recipe for growth and dominance.
I’ve read about gun sales volume and most of the volume is handguns; a marker Remington can’t find out. After that it’s ARs, another market Remington has struggled with, and then cheap hunting arms....where Remington’s bread and butter once were with the 700 and 870 being cheaper to produce while maintaining quality than Mauser-based rifles and Winchester style pumps.
Now the market demands even cheaper rifles and shotguns. Remington has clung to their designs that were successful in the past. But their quality cannot be maintained and compete with cheaper products in the lower price points us cheap bastards want. It’s pretty bad when Savage has the corner on cheap rifles. Now we have the Ruger American, too. And somebody that wants something “nice” can buy a $500 Tikka that’s arguably a better rifle that their high-end 700s.
Why did it take until late ‘17 before Remington picked up the 6.5 creed? Why didn’t they push the .260 Rem 20 years ago when it was everything the 6.5 creed is know? They couldn’t market a cartridge that has a better trajectory than a .300 Win mag with less size, weight, and recoil than a .308?
Somebody above mentioned the .30 AR, again, nobody has ever heard of it and it was out there before the .300 BLk. Why couldn’t Big Green find a market for a .30 cal small-frame AR that can provide energy for medium size game? They can’t market anything.
They just do not get it. A guy wanting a $200 rifle isn’t going to buy a $400 700. A guy that wants the cheapest 700 he can get wants a 700 with 700-reputation for quality whether he pays $400 or $600. Guys that hunt want classic calibers like .243, .270, .30-06, .300 Win, .308 Win....why do you think your .260 is going to fit into that crowd, especially if you don’t even highlight the advantages? Yet you won’t market or bring options to the table for the precision shooters...you just tell them .308, .300 Win and .223 is all they need.
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Doc Safari
11-27-17, 10:36
This past black Friday set another record for gun sales, so I don't think the industry is in as much of a slump as Remington is (even though the industry IS down since Trump took office):
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-26/black-friday-posts-new-single-day-record-gun-background-checks
My take: Remington just isn't current with its offerings. Glock is expected to really hurt the competition with its new Gen 5 pistols:
http://www.guns.com/2017/08/30/gen5-glock-could-be-bad-news-for-competitors/
Maybe if Remington woke up in the 21st century?
Heck, buy an RP9. Might be a collector's item one day :D
Averageman
11-28-17, 11:04
Hopefully and I say that because I like their early guns DD is taking notes.
If Remington can crap the bed, anyone can.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-28-17, 12:45
I’ve read about gun sales volume and most of the volume is handguns; a marker Remington can’t find out. After that it’s ARs, another market Remington has struggled with, and then cheap hunting arms....where Remington’s bread and butter once were with the 700 and 870 being cheaper to produce while maintaining quality than Mauser-based rifles and Winchester style pumps.
Nice insights. That pretty well explains a lot. It would be like a US automanufacturer not having pick-ups and SUVs. That is going to be a tough position hold.
Outlander Systems
11-28-17, 13:45
The G5 is pretty goddamned legit, and I'm usually a, "meh" kinda dude...
Regarding Remington, now would be a good time to unveil a box-fed, semi-auto shotgun that wasn't a turd. 10/10 the market would buy the shit out of them.
My take: Remington just isn't current with its offerings. Glock is expected to really hurt the competition with its new Gen 5 pistols:
http://www.guns.com/2017/08/30/gen5-glock-could-be-bad-news-for-competitors/
Couldn't happen to a better company.
Remember that Remington's present owners have a history of buying companies on the downward, making their books look good by increasing profits (by reducing costs, e.g. cutting money for QA/QC and using less expensive materials), and then selling them to someone else. And they've been trying to sell Remington since 2013.
This is the same company, by the way, that sold Dodge to Fiat - who promptly improved the brand from poor to mediocre.
Well, what a hell of a way to make money by creating a solution to a manufactured problem... That's actually pretty fiendishly smart if you think about it...
Take a high quality product, destroy it to the point it's hated, then make minor improvements, market the new and improved product at a price bump, watch people rave over the "improved" product and buy it in droves for more money yet still at less quality and cost to produce than the original...
:suicide2:
The RPR should have been a real wake up call for Remington. For the price of a nice stock or chassis for the R700 action, you could have a whole gun... and then they brought out a new generation of it that addressed some issues all before Rem even noticed.
Huh, I didn't even realize that had hit the market.... :o
So, it's got a 20MOA optic rail, light, modern handguard (I'd prefer Mlok, but...), accepts standard AICS-pattern mags, CHF barrel which can be changed with AR tools, and folding stock. For $11-1400.....
Good grief, those features ALONE on a serious precision bolt gun will run you more than the price of this rifle extra...
If the quality and accuracy/trigger are good (and stay there) I might not be able to help buying one.... That's the same as the budget 700 build I just spec'd (and then trashed) with all the features I was giving up to meet a price point...
Hell, Remington should have bought GA Precision or Defiance or Surgeon and/or McMillion/Manners and became the go-to guys for police sniper and PRS rifles....
Don't even think that heresy! :mad:
The G5 is pretty goddamned legit, and I'm usually a, "meh" kinda dude...
Regarding Remington, now would be a good time to unveil a box-fed, semi-auto shotgun that wasn't a turd. 10/10 the market would buy the shit out of them.
I agree, but it will never happen. At this point I think it’s clear that there is no clue in positions that count within the organization.
Dist. Expert 26
11-28-17, 21:19
Huh, I didn't even realize that had hit the market.... :o
So, it's got a 20MOA optic rail, light, modern handguard (I'd prefer Mlok, but...), accepts standard AICS-pattern mags, CHF barrel which can be changed with AR tools, and folding stock. For $11-1400.....
Good grief, those features ALONE on a serious precision bolt gun will run you more than the price of this rifle extra...
If the quality and accuracy/trigger are good (and stay there) I might not be able to help buying one.... That's the same as the budget 700 build I just spec'd (and then trashed) with all the features I was giving up to meet a price point...
Don't even think that heresy! :mad:
The RPR is decent out of the box, but the barrels aren't great, the trigger/safety need replaced (at least in my opinion) and the chassis doesn't really compare to the quality aftermarket offerings for the 700. My custom 700 suits my needs far better, but I won't derail the thread any further.
As to Remington buying one of the listed shops, I would hope that they'd have enough sense to laugh and hang up the phone. Large corporate mentality would utterly destroy the products and reputation within months.
sundance435
11-29-17, 08:32
The decline in quality products on all fronts is endemic.
American corporations are owned by financial conglomerates mostly.
They rape the brand for every thing it will produce and let the quality dwindle.
Not much of anything left from the good ole days is half as good as it used to was,
and 2 to 3 times as expensive.
Yeah, I always cringe when another firearms industry company is purchased by a conglomerate or holding company. The downturn in quality is usually no more than a couple years away after that. Marlin, S&W, Remington, etc. This is a tough industry to operate well in and running something well in another sector does not necessarily translate well in this industry.
Remington offers nothing I want to buy. They had people wanting to buy the Remington Defense ACR, but they won't sell it. I'm sure they have made similar mistakes I'm not aware of.
I occasionally toy with the idea of getting a bolt gun, the 700 seems cool and then I look into it and they are not very nice.
I have an 870 express, cheap gun, didn't expect much. More of a turd than I thought it would be though.
Yeah, I always cringe when another firearms industry company is purchased by a conglomerate or holding company. The downturn in quality is usually no more than a couple years away after that. Marlin, S&W, Remington, etc. This is a tough industry to operate well in and running something well in another sector does not necessarily translate well in this industry.
S&W has been putting out solid stuff for a long time and innovating. I don't see them anywhere near the Remington status, not even in the same ballpark. They did have a real bad patch some years ago under different owners (some Brit company I recall), but came back with a vengeance and have not looked back since. I believe most of the companies owned by American Outdoor Brands Corporation, are doing pretty well overall and they don't appear to be intent on destroying the brands they purchase unlike anything the Freedom Group purchased, which went from being low end of the industry to circling the drain. Freedom owns Remington, DPMS, and shlub master. That should tell you something.
titsonritz
11-29-17, 12:08
They did have a real bad patch some years ago under different owners (some Brit company I recall), but came back with a vengeance and have not looked back since.
Tomkins. I still laugh at how hard they took it in the shorts.
I believe most of the companies owned by American Outdoor Brands Corporation, are doing pretty well overall and they don't appear to be intent on destroying the brands they purchase unlike anything the Freedom Group purchased, which went from being low end of the industry to circling the drain. Freedom owns Remington, DPMS, and shlub master. That should tell you something.
Cerberus Capital Management own The Freedom Group, they own the following:
Advanced Armament Corporation
Barnes Bullets
Bushmaster Firearms International
Dakota Arms
DPMS Panther Arms
H&R Firearms
Marlin Firearms
Mountain Khakis
Para USA
Parker Gunmakers
Remington Arms
Remington LE
Remington Military
Remington PMPD
TAPCO
Cerberus Capital Management own The Freedom Group, they own the following:
Advanced Armament Corporation
Barnes Bullets
Bushmaster Firearms International
Dakota Arms
DPMS Panther Arms
H&R Firearms
Marlin Firearms
Mountain Khakis
Para USA
Parker Gunmakers
Remington Arms
Remington LE
Remington Military
Remington PMPD
TAPCO
I rest my case....
RetroRevolver77
11-29-17, 13:18
I rest my case....
I have Pre-Cerberus Remingtons and they are nice. My Rem 700 ADL in .30-06 will hold just over 1/2MOA groups at 100 which is extremely accurate considering my Steyr in the same cal is just shy 1 MOA. My two 870's are also nice and work well.
I have Pre-Cerberus Remingtons and they are nice. My Rem 700 ADL in .30-06 will hold just over 1/2MOA groups at 100 which is extremely accurate considering my Steyr in the same cal is just shy 1 MOA. My two 870's are also nice and work well.
Sure, but the entire line up Pre-Cerberus and post rests almost entirely on those two guns and that's why they are on their way out unless something radically changes. I mean, it's really not that difficult to hire some good gun designers and pay attention to what people are buying and want, and proceed accordingly. I'm not even in the industry by any means and I could turn that place around in a year, maybe 2 max, as could most of the members here. It's not rocket science.
Source being what it is, so must be questioned, this does not look good either:
"...according to a Remington internal document the company had evidence of the problem as early as 1975 when its own tests showed some of the model 700s firing without the trigger being pulled. And this 1979 document indicates the company considered a recall. That never happened, but a decade ago it did switch from the original Walker trigger to the X-Mark Pro."
Cont:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/popular-remington-700-rifle-linked-to-potentially-deadly-defects-2/
RetroRevolver77
11-29-17, 17:28
Sure, but the entire line up Pre-Cerberus and post rests almost entirely on those two guns and that's why they are on their way out unless something radically changes. I mean, it's really not that difficult to hire some good gun designers and pay attention to what people are buying and want, and proceed accordingly. I'm not even in the industry by any means and I could turn that place around in a year, maybe 2 max, as could most of the members here. It's not rocket science.
Source being what it is, so must be questioned, this does not look good either:
"...according to a Remington internal document the company had evidence of the problem as early as 1975 when its own tests showed some of the model 700s firing without the trigger being pulled. And this 1979 document indicates the company considered a recall. That never happened, but a decade ago it did switch from the original Walker trigger to the X-Mark Pro."
Cont:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/popular-remington-700-rifle-linked-to-potentially-deadly-defects-2/
I know about the Rem 700 trigger, best to upgrade that to avoid any issues. Other than that, they are fairly solid base rifles to build off of.
Coal Dragger
11-29-17, 17:56
No they’re not. Unless you find a receiver that is about 20 years old. The new manufactured 700’s are strait up garbage.
Many custom builders won’t even touch a new Remington 700 receiver because they just need too much work getting them squared up and trued, that by the time all the mill work costs are factored you can just buy a better action that is ready to go from a semi-custom maker.
Remington started going to shit at least 15 years ago, and “Freedom Group” aka Cerberus just accelerated the curve. Go back to the model 710 and you can witness the beginning of the end for Remington.
With any luck someone will buy the name, and patents that are worth building and move production to a more gun friendly state. Then start building guns to a standard, and let the price reflect the quality. They don’t have to be super expensive, it is possible to stay reasonable in price and offer good quality and value.
RetroRevolver77
11-29-17, 18:01
No they’re not. Unless you find a receiver that is about 20 years old. The new manufactured 700’s are strait up garbage.
Many custom builders won’t even touch a new Remington 700 receiver because they just need too much work getting them squared up and trued, that by the time all the mill work costs are factored you can just buy a better action that is ready to go from a semi-custom maker.
Remington started going to shit at least 15 years ago, and “Freedom Group” aka Cerberus just accelerated the curve. Go back to the model 710 and you can witness the beginning of the end for Remington.
With any luck someone will buy the name, and patents that are worth building and move production to a more gun friendly state. Then start building guns to a standard, and let the price reflect the quality. They don’t have to be super expensive, it is possible to stay reasonable in price and offer good quality and value.
M7 700 was built in the last decade and I guess I got lucky because it's extremely accurate and is a nice rifle over all.
Luck has nothing to do with corporate profits, investment cartels prey on under capitalized, poorly managed companies.
Firearms or bicycles it means nothing to them, they are not sentimental and most despise the thought of peasants being
armed.
Averageman
11-29-17, 19:32
I rest my case....
There was a time when if you made a great product, even if you could only produce it in limited numbers, you continued to do it with pride because your name was on it.
Selling out to a conglomerate is really "selling out".
No matter how good your ethics were, your product will be of a lesser quality than it once was.
Sad but true, if you have a great idea and a great product, keep it under your hat. Limited production numbers should be offset by higher prices to maintain quality control over your production numbers. Unfortunately, that's simply not what they teach MBA's.
sundance435
11-30-17, 13:30
S&W has been putting out solid stuff for a long time and innovating. I don't see them anywhere near the Remington status, not even in the same ballpark. They did have a real bad patch some years ago under different owners (some Brit company I recall), but came back with a vengeance and have not looked back since. I believe most of the companies owned by American Outdoor Brands Corporation, are doing pretty well overall and they don't appear to be intent on destroying the brands they purchase unlike anything the Freedom Group purchased, which went from being low end of the industry to circling the drain. Freedom owns Remington, DPMS, and shlub master. That should tell you something.
I guess I'm mainly thinking of their revolvers, which is a tough segment in which to remain competitive. I have owned "lock" S&Ws and will never again - happy to have my pre-lock 686+. I'm not overly fond of their post-3rd gen autos or ARs, but I won't dispute that they're decent.
Let's not forget the R51 fiasco either, they were 450 when they hit the market, local store has them at 174 after mail in rebate. Or their 1911 offerings which aren't inspiring.Actually I think their 1911 is one that's doing well. Or at least better than everything else they offer. I see people post them up on other forums. ..Hey look at what I just got!!!! ... Great value!!! Bla bla bla
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I see Remington as a 60s, 70s company. Popular when Amish Uzis and lever actions were what everyone bought. One that's today really just out of touch with current trends. Of course this is threw the eyes of someone who grew up in the 80s and 90s when ARs, Uzis, Fals, and MP5s, Berettas...etc..were the guns to have. There's hasn't been anything in Remington's line up that I ever wanted. I own 2 older 870s because just in case and together they cost me $400. Otherwise I probably wouldn't even own a shotgun.
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