View Full Version : What do you think is the worst, current issue
ramairthree
11-26-17, 19:31
Military carbine?
Not historical, left over, etc.
But the worst modern issue in the past,
Say 25 years or so.
The F2000
So much "no" in the shape of a yacht
The F2000
So much "no" in the shape of a yacht
Aww come on, no love for the tactical tuna? At least it was ambi out of the box with no changes required, even if it did make me flinch like a mofo because after like 5 round it puked brass out in my LOS and freaked me the hell out. Other than that, and it is a training issue, I didn't mind it. The toilet bowl door to look into that bastard though wasn't comforting though.
On the topic of the thread, are we talking worse issue for rifle stuff, or just in general, cuz in either case I gonna have a hard time narrowing that shit down.
MountainRaven
11-26-17, 19:58
I think it would have to boil down to the CETME model L, the INSAS, or the SA80.
The CETME has been replaced with the G36E, the Indians are supposed to be shopping for a replacement for the INSAS, but who knows how that will end, and even H&K couldn't really fix the SA80.
I think I would have to go with the INSAS.
The British SA-80 rifle. There I said it!! Looks like the Starship Troopers battle rifle. Absolutely discussing!
The F2000 as Firefly pointed out! Hideous! Were talking about the integrity of the modern day battle rifle here. When is the last time you heard of valiant soldiers, bravely marching out gloriously into the field of battle carrying a F2000?
Noting is US inventory both past or present comes to mind as being "worst".
The British SA-80 rifle. There I said it!! Looks like the Starship Troopers battle rifle. Absolutely discussing!
The F2000 as Firefly pointed out! Hideous! Were talking about the integrity of the modern day battle rifle here. When is the last time you heard of valiant soldiers, bravely marching out gloriously into the field of battle carrying a F2000?
Noting is US inventory both past or present comes to mind as being "worst".
SA80 is probably the worst main line battle/assault rifle in HISTORY!!! I mean, from what I have read/watched they were redefining what a serious malf was just to pass the mother****er. Compared to that at least the F2000 at least worked, mostly, kind of. I think the F2000/FS2000 is the fact that it really is like humping a fat shouldering it, and this comes from a guy with a shotgun that has a stock that could hide a 1911 with an extended mag and weapon light.
Actually to folks bagging on SA80; while it is far from perfect. It isnt as bad as people think.
I got a super rare opportunity to shoot one that had a SUSAT and as long as you are right handed, it isnt bad.
It is a lot heavier than it looks and the manual of arms is not as ergonomic as an AUG but it was pretty interesting.
The heft sucks up a good bit of the 556 recoil. Its a bit unsettling having it reciprocate by your head.
It is interesting for the era in which it was designed to supplant the FN FAL.
The F2000 has no excuses.
Still even if they sold them on the commercial market.....I would not mess with them.
If you learn the history of the SA80, as it was explained to me, it was made with the purpose of more urban, built up area scenarios in mind.
So I cant totally hate.
Actually to folks bagging on SA80; while it is far from perfect. It isnt as bad as people think.
I got a super rare opportunity to shoot one that had a SUSAT and as long as you are right handed, it isnt bad.
It is a lot heavier than it looks and the manual of arms is not as ergonomic as an AUG but it was pretty interesting.
The heft sucks up a good bit of the 556 recoil. Its a bit unsettling having it reciprocate by your head.
It is interesting for the era in which it was designed to supplant the FN FAL.
The F2000 has no excuses.
Still even if they sold them on the commercial market.....I would not mess with them.
If you learn the history of the SA80, as it was explained to me, it was made with the purpose of more urban, built up area scenarios in mind.
So I cant totally hate.
Brother what model did you shoot of the SA80? A1 or A2? Not, busting your balls, I actually want to know before I can hate you for shooting a really rare bird. Lol. My brother will like legit come up to Atl and kick your ass for shooting his dream gun though since he moved to Ga though, lol.
I have heard guys actually say the A2, after being rebuilt by H&k as being pretty legit. The A1s though.... I'll take my SLR thank you, or an F2000. Though, personal option I'll take an M4 before any of them.
Brother what model did you shoot of the SA80? A1 or A2? Not, busting your balls, I actually want to know before I can hate you for shooting a really rare bird. Lol. My brother will like legit come up to Atl and kick your ass for shooting his dream gun though since he moved to Ga though, lol.
I have heard guys actually say the A2, after being rebuilt by H&k as being pretty legit. The A1s though.... I'll take my SLR thank you, or an F2000. Though, personal option I'll take an M4 before any of them.
I dunno the exact model. Just that it had the 3x SUSAT. It has to be seen to be believed. It is like ba bam. Pretty clear with the post. I experienced no malfs or hangups. Mind you I wasnt able to spend all day with it or just blaze away all day. It is a lot sturdier in person and not as light as it looks in pictures.
I was expecting this soft plasticky thing. Nope. Hefty pig. As it was explained, everybody has to shoot it right handed.
Interesting. And really obscure in the states.
It was fun as a bucket list but I wouldnt own one. The charging handle cycles with some authority.
It is not intuitive like an AUG. Not at all.
Its an odd duck.
Handguards felt okay. Pretty ergonomic.
Didnt get to mess with select fire but it was amusing.
I dunno the exact model. Just that it had the 3x SUSAT. It has to be seen to be believed. It is like ba bam. Pretty clear with the post. I experienced no malfs or hangups. Mind you I wasnt able to spend all day with it or just blaze away all day. It is a lot sturdier in person and not as light as it looks in pictures.
I was expecting this soft plasticky thing. Nope. Hefty pig. As it was explained, everybody has to shoot it right handed.
Interesting. And really obscure in the states.
It was fun as a bucket list but I wouldnt own one. The charging handle cycles with some authority.
It is not intuitive like an AUG. Not at all.
Its an odd duck.
Handguards felt okay. Pretty ergonomic.
Didnt get to mess with select fire but it was amusing.
I think most have the Susat. Congrats on getting time behind a really odd ball optic. I hear those things kind of make ACOGs look fragile. And yes, I think think the SLR and SA80/LA85 are about the same weight so that should be a soft shooter, if not things have gone horribly wrong. And from what I heard from in my reading the bolt handle has enough force to break bone, so I believe the energy on that. I really do.
I would be curious on if the handle was like a curved thingy or just a post/handle. Since that would generally denote model.
Also, if you wanted to get a little bit of info, check out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDCRop6CRwY
Have enjoyed the videos from Ian, though maybe his hate is that he is a lefty and the rifle is righty only. Lol.
Last note, from my understanding, the SA80's biggest issue probably had to do with the design just not being fully evolved before service, and command ignoring issues.
Given chance and money I would like to own one just because. I equal opportunity in my gun purchases.
Will watch vid later but iirc the charging handle was rounded.
ramairthree
11-26-17, 21:57
I actually started this thread trying to figure out why in God’s name Italy adopted the ARX.
I cannot think of a single reason other than its a Beretta.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-26-17, 22:11
I actually started this thread trying to figure out why in God’s name Italy adopted the ARX.
I cannot think of a single reason other than its a Beretta.
It looks like a SCARmuchi.
BoringGuy45
11-26-17, 22:40
I actually started this thread trying to figure out why in God’s name Italy adopted the ARX.
I cannot think of a single reason other than its a Beretta.
Probably because multicaliber and ambidexterity are the order of the day.
Okay hear me out.......
The M16.....not the M16A1....the M16.
Regardless of whether you place the blame on propellant, or lack of maintenance training and equipment, there is little doubt the M16's failure in combat got some soldiers killed.
The story does have a happy ending, though....
Okay hear me out.......
The M16.....not the M16A1....the M16.
Regardless of whether you place the blame on propellant, or lack of maintenance training and equipment, there is little doubt the M16's failure in combat got some soldiers killed.
The story does have a happy ending, though....
He said 25 years. That means starting at 1992.
The 60s were a looooooooong time ago.
I can see the bemusement of the ARX. Never shot one so cannot speak to it.
The Chinese Type 97 however, is quite recent and looks really awkward.
A rifle I had my hands on was the G36 and it was just not impressive. It does have a lot of users so it is technically successful, just not my cup of tea.
This will piss people off....the AK74. It’s a crappy copy of the M16 series ballistically, it’s not nearly as modular as the M4s without major overhauls, the ergos suck, and it’s just fun to irritate the fanboys.
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The Beretta ARX isnt "worse" but does have some flaws.
I'm assuming your talking about the 160arx?
Pros:
Light weight
Folding - adjustable telescopic stock
shoots NATO 556 / 762x39
excepts GI mags or AK/AKM mags (762 variant)
short stroke gas piston design
ambidextrous controls
quick change barrel
Cons:
ak style mag release
too bulky
too much polymer
non free float barrel design
AK style bolt release
no options for keymod, m-lock
cant just change out certain parts on the rifle- see photo below- cant exactally change out upper/lower/grips/rail- no customization.
gun has no place to put a swivel
made in Italy
48928
BoringGuy45
11-27-17, 02:38
Another thing with the ARX160 is that it's replacing the AR70/90 series which, I've heard, is quite well-liked by Italian soldiers.
The Beretta ARX isnt "worse" but does have some flaws.
I'm assuming your talking about the 160arx?
Pros:
Light weight
Folding - adjustable telescopic stock
shoots NATO 556 / 762x39
excepts GI mags or AK/AKM mags (762 variant)
short stroke gas piston design
ambidextrous controls
quick change barrel
Cons:
ak style mag release
too bulky
too much polymer
non free float barrel design
AK style bolt release
no options for keymod, m-lock
cant just change out certain parts on the rifle- see photo below- cant exactally change out upper/lower/grips/rail- no customization.
gun has no place to put a swivel
made in Italy
48928
Huh? The ARX160 has an AR15 style mag release on both sides, in addition to a push-button release on the bottom where an AK mag latch would be, and a bolt release button for the trigger finger. The controls are faster to work than those on an AR15.
I wonder if the Italian ones are better made than the ones we get here from Beretta USA? The anodizing is thin, rough, and scratches off easily, accuracy reports range from 2-6 MOA with match ammo, etc.
The design of the whole back half of the rifle is genius and a thing of beauty. I'm not so sure about the front end anymore. The more I look at it, the more I think it's just a terrible design. Like an experienced engineer designed the back half and the front half was done by Beppe, the owner's 80 IQ son-in-law.
This will piss people off....the AK74. It’s a crappy copy of the M16 series ballistically, it’s not nearly as modular as the M4s without major overhauls, the ergos suck, and it’s just fun to irritate the fanboys.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLol. How modular was the AR in 1974? It's a 43 year old rifle based on an 58 year old rifle that was a modernized version of a 70 year old rifle
I actually kinda always wanted a FN2000. It's so weird looking I can't look away. I'm not going to go buy one but I kinda wish I had at least owned one when they were available.
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Lol. How modular was the AR in 1974? It's a 43 year old rifle based on an 58 year old rifle that was a modernized version of a 70 year old rifle
I actually kinda always wanted a FN2000. It's so weird looking I can't look away. I'm not going to go buy one but I kinda wish I had at least owned one when they were available.
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We aren’t talking 1974, we are talking the last 25 years. The M16A5 and M4 were fixed. Lots of ‘74s being issued haven’t.
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In 1974, the AR was state of the art.
There were Colt 3x scopes.
Carry Handle weaver mounts
A true Carbine model that was pretty much unaltered until 1993
Suppressors
Night Vision
Nascent RDS.
The AR-10 would have done well in a DMR role, much better than any M14. It required no bedding. Had a factory 4x optic available.
It didnt see its true update until, again, 1992-93 from the guy who designed it.
So minus a weaponlight (which you could have affixed a maglite with some duct tape), if you had an AR anything in 1974; you were way, way ahead of the curve
We aren’t talking 1974, we are talking the last 25 years. The M16A5 and M4 were fixed. Lots of ‘74s being issued haven’t.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI guess it depends on what you consider "fixed".
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I guess it depends on what you consider "fixed".
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We certainly made them more modular. Accuracy, reliability, durability were already there. And we don’t even have corrosive ammunition for them.
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RetroRevolver77
11-27-17, 13:17
This will piss people off....the AK74. It’s a crappy copy of the M16 series ballistically, it’s not nearly as modular as the M4s without major overhauls, the ergos suck, and it’s just fun to irritate the fanboys.
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The 74 is not limited by velocity dependence for gross expansion to remain effective plus it's piston fed and was designed specifically for arctic trench warfare.
7n6
The 74 is not limited by velocity dependence for gross expansion to remain effective plus it's piston fed and was designed specifically for arctic trench warfare.
7n6
And it still sucks.
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RetroRevolver77
11-27-17, 14:09
And it still sucks.
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At least attempt to articulate a knowledgeable argument because so far I'm not seeing that.
I believe it was already articulated that the ballistic performance argument is bullshit in the other thread where 7n6 was spotted as superior.
Further, lack of modularity, and corrosive properties of the ammunition were already articulated. I’m sorry that you’re offended that I don’t share your love of the platform.
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RetroRevolver77
11-27-17, 15:26
I believe it was already articulated that the ballistic performance argument is bullshit in the other thread where 7n6 was spotted as superior.
Further, lack of modularity, and corrosive properties of the ammunition were already articulated. I’m sorry that you’re offended that I don’t share your love of the platform.
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7n6 already outperforms M855 in transferring energy past the 5.56 velocity dependent threshold for gross expansion. Simply because the 7n6 round will still tumble as designed within the first three inches after impact at any distance where as 5.56 under a certain velocity if failing to fragment- tends to punch straight through. A round that is designed to tumble creating long veering wound paths has greater range for this damaging quality than say one that is limited to a velocity specific gross fragmentation that greatly reduces that capability at distance. However start comparing more modern ammo- say M855A1, MK 262 to say 7n10, 7n22 or 7n24 and the longer range performance numbers tighten up more closely.
As far as the underlying rifles themselves, the 74 is dated yet still retains the one feature that all modern rifles are now designed around and that is the gas piston. The M4 of course still being an internal piston but direct gas design- is reliable but does require more maintenance as it it directly injects carbon back into the action. Though the M4 is sealed rifle, it doesn't handle well if compromised where as the AK, though less a sealed system handles debris quite well as long as the hammer can reset or the bolt can lock into battery. The M4 could be argued to now be upgraded to the HK 416 addressing direct gas fouling issues and the 74 is now being upgraded to the AK-12 addressing ergonomic issues.
However personally with much review, I still believe the basic 74 and AK's in general haven't been surpassed by a more durable and reliable design.
7n6
Huh? The ARX160 has an AR15 style mag release on both sides, in addition to a push-button release on the bottom where an AK mag latch would be, and a bolt release button for the trigger finger. The controls are faster to work than those on an AR15.
I wonder if the Italian ones are better made than the ones we get here from Beretta USA? The anodizing is thin, rough, and scratches off easily, accuracy reports range from 2-6 MOA with match ammo, etc.
The design of the whole back half of the rifle is genius and a thing of beauty. I'm not so sure about the front end anymore. The more I look at it, the more I think it's just a terrible design. Like an experienced engineer designed the back half and the front half was done by Beppe, the owner's 80 IQ son-in-law.
im thinking there may be 2 models then, the one that I saw had an AK mag release on the bottom as you said and an AK bolt release but not an AR mag release. Yes the back end is awesome- just like the SCAR. Maybe I saw a prototype or the earlier version. But anyways like you said, the front of the gun is too futuristic for me.
7n6 already outperforms M855 in transferring energy past the 5.56 velocity dependent threshold for gross expansion. Simply because the 7n6 round will still tumble as designed within the first three inches after impact at any distance where as 5.56 under a certain velocity if failing to fragment- tends to punch straight through. A round that is designed to tumble creating long veering wound paths has greater range for this damaging quality than say one that is limited to a velocity specific gross fragmentation that greatly reduces that capability at distance. However start comparing more modern ammo- say M855A1, MK 262 to say 7n10, 7n22 or 7n24 and the longer range performance numbers tighten up more closely.
As far as the underlying rifles themselves, the 74 is dated yet still retains the one feature that all modern rifles are now designed around and that is the gas piston. The M4 of course still being an internal piston but direct gas design- is reliable but does require more maintenance as it it directly injects carbon back into the action. Though the M4 is sealed rifle, it doesn't handle well if compromised where as the AK, though less a sealed system handles debris quite well as long as the hammer can reset or the bolt can lock into battery. The M4 could be argued to now be upgraded to the HK 416 addressing direct gas fouling issues and the 74 is now being upgraded to the AK-12 addressing ergonomic issues.
However personally with much review, I still believe the basic 74 and AK's in general haven't been surpassed by a more durable and reliable design.
7n6
Cool, thanks for cluttering up a thread with irrelevant information. This thread isn’t about attacking others choices or defending platforms you like.
Back to topic.
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RetroRevolver77
11-27-17, 16:06
Cool, thanks for cluttering up a thread with irrelevant information. This thread isn’t about attacking others choices or defending platforms you like.
Back to topic.
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LOL, that it's exactly what you did.
7n6
No, I stated that I thought the ‘74 was one of the worst. You came along to defend it.
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