View Full Version : Case body resizing issue
I've been trying to perfect my case resizing but I am having a hard time figuring everything out. When I load the resized case into my rifle's chamber it is pretty tight. If I drop the bolt it goes into battery and I can pull it out without much effort, so not too tight to not chamber, but I am hoping to get it to slide in easy like factory ammo. I believe the problem is the case body width is not sizing down enough or is springing back to chamber dimensions.
Using Hornady Calipers and Hornady's headspace gauge kit, using factory unfired and fired Norma 223 ammo, I get a base to shoulder measurement of 1.452 inches. Brass that is fired from my chamber measures 1.457 inches. The brass after resizing in my RCBS FL 223 die measures 1.452 inches. I do not believe the issue is related to the length from base to shoulder. I have been using case lube on the expander ball and inside the case necks, so I don't think the expander ball is pulling the shoulder longer. I have no good consistent way to measure shoulder datum so despite my thoughts, it may be causing the problem.
When I put my calipers around the body of the cases near where the sizing die ends, the factory ammo measures .372 inches, the fired brass measures .374 inches, and the resized brass just under .374 inches. I can't measure exactly the same place on all the cases, but I am pretty sure the measurements are reliable enough to tell me something.
I am camming over just a bit on the press, and the shell holder makes contact with the bottom of the die. I don't think I can size down farther on the case and even if I could, I don't want to bring the shoulder back farther since its already .005 bumped back. Do you think the 2 thousandths on the body will cause the cases to not slide into battery easy, maybe I should try a small base sizer? or what else can I do?
5.56 Bonded SP
11-27-17, 20:58
This is what you seek.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gauge-223-remington
Just drop your brass in it, and it will show you if it is too long, too short, or within spec.
I don't trust myself trying to measure the shoulder with calipers, too many variables. This tool or one like it is the easiest way for me.
ETA: that little tool shows you if it is within spec for case length, and shoulder length. It is really handy, and fast.
I resize all my cases every time I reload them.
It sounds like you need to buy a full length sizing die. I had a similar issue with sizing .308 brass fired in semi-automatics and the full length die resolved the issue.
Some brass requires more than one trip through the resizing die and some does not. You will learn through trial and error which cases spring back and require two passes.
I am currently using a full length die. So another pass may squish it back down? I'll give it a try. That would be awesome if that's all it took.
fedupflyer
11-28-17, 00:02
Remove the expander ball when setting up a sizing die (and maybe not use it at all). Sometimes the expander ball will compress or stretch the neck. I even have it happen on my Forster press using Forster dies with a polished ball. It will cause you to chase your tail if you are using the Hornady compararator. Ask me how I know.
I have now moved to a expander mandrel for precision ammo.
Consistency equals accuracy.
Coal Dragger
11-28-17, 00:11
I am currently using a full length die. So another pass may squish it back down? I'll give it a try. That would be awesome if that's all it took.
You should invest in a case gauge, the one linked to will work great. If your cases are not in spec with your current die setup you may need to try a new die. A small base resizing die may also make a difference for you.
Not all case gauges are created equal and have a body diameter at Max SAAMI diameter.
Below the cases were inserted base first in a Wilson, Dillon and JP Enterprise gauge. And as you can see the red JP Enterprise gauge is a smaller diameter.
Bottom line if the resized case fits in the JP Enterprise gauge it will chamber in any rifle.
https://i.imgur.com/KSB3ZvP.jpg
A resized case for a semi-auto should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter measured at three points along the body of the case. This gives the case more "spring back" from the chamber walls when fired and more reliable extraction.
A small base die will reduce the case diameter approximately .002 to .003 and also bump the shoulder back more than a standard die.
"BUT" dies can vary in size, example I have a standard Lee full length .223 die that will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS .223 small base die does. And my RCBS small base die only reduces the case diameter .001 more than my standard RCBS .223 full length die. So again resizing dies can vary in diameter and shoulder location, so check your fired and resized case diameters.
And some commercial .223 cases have thinner and softer brass in the base of the case and may need to be sized with a small base die. I buy bulk once fired Lake City brass and all of it is sized at least once with a small base die to bring the cases back to SAAMI minimum dimensions and counter act brass spring back after sizing.
Case gauge ALL THE WAY. Takes all the nonsense measurements out of the way. And get rid of the expander ball, and buy a neck expanding die. Expander balls are brutal on your brass/necks, and leave too much runout in the neck.
It's an extra step, but the neck expander die is worth it if you are serious about your loads.
Below a Lyman type "M" expander and the main part of the expander is .003 smaller than bullet diameter for more bullet grip. Also bumping the case mouth on to the .226 step aids seating and reduces neck runout. The RCBS AR series dies have a taper crimp and you just bump the case into the crimping die to streamline the case mouth or add more bullet grip. (If needed)
NOTE, with brass spring back after expanding the case mouth onto the .226 step you will not see and case mouth expansion and may not need the taper crimp.
https://i.imgur.com/ohIUcpd.png
Another vote for the case gauge.
Best advice I ever received when starting to load rifle.
Another vote for the case gauge.
Best advice I ever received when starting to load rifle.
I think guys here should own one even if they don't reload because you can check factory ammo... or ammo with dents to make sure they'll chamber correctly.
A case gage (unless cut with a minimum reamer) will only show if the shoulder was pushed back to safe headspace and if the case is short or long, requiring trimming.
A small-base die will bring the case closer to original factory brass exterior dimensions -- who doesn't like shooting factory ammo loaded with virgin cases?
Your chamber is your ultimate gage -- if cases slide in, then fall out naturally when you tip the muzzle up you're good. If you have to leverage them out (or push with a rod) your die isn't sizing the exterior dimensions enough.
Some claim using a small base die overworks brass -- but most will lose the cases to neck splits or just plain not finding them in the grass before they're worn out.
I'll second the recommendation for a Small Base Die if a Full Length Die is not getting the job done. I had an AR-10 that required a small base die to size the brass for proper feeding.
Case gauge ALL THE WAY. Takes all the nonsense measurements out of the way. And get rid of the expander ball, and buy a neck expanding die. Expander balls are brutal on your brass/necks, and leave too much runout in the neck.
It's an extra step, but the neck expander die is worth it if you are serious about your loads.
I am interested in this neck expander die. What are your recommendations for products, and is it as simple as FL sizing and then taking the cases and expanding them in the new die?
Also sinister, What you say sounds like what happens with my own once fired brass (machine gun brass is a different story). Do I just drop the case in under its own weight and let it fall out? That sounds like the least involved method of getting a case in the chamber, nice and simple if it works.
I am gonna sound like a cheapskate, but I have spent so much on reloading stuff this year, when I already had most everything, I figured springing for the headspace gauges would be a better solution than a case gauge. Someone told me reloading would save me money hahahahahahahaha. More like cost me but my pistol reloads are pretty accurate so its worth it so far. I just want to get the rifle dialed in.
So recommendations are Small base sizer, Case Gauges, and a neck expanding die? At least those all aren't too expensive.
fedupflyer
11-28-17, 22:29
Its called an expander mandrel.
Look at 21st Century reloading.
http://www.xxicsi.com/products-1.html
Use the Hornday comparator to set the headspace for your rifle and then use a case gauge to verify.
I also recommend a neck tension gauge.
https://ballistictools.com/store/case-mouth-gage-224-308
...sinister, What you say sounds like what happens with my own once fired brass (machine gun brass is a different story). Do I just drop the case in under its own weight and let it fall out? That sounds like the least involved method of getting a case in the chamber, nice and simple if it works.
So recommendations are Small base sizer, Case Gauges, and a neck expanding die? At least those all aren't too expensive.
A small base die makes the most sense if you own at least two ARs -- one chambered for .mil 5.56 and one chambered with a commercial reamer, and/or if you use range-recovered brass or surplus brass of unknown origin (perhaps fired from a SAW).
The giveaway is if brass won't pass the test described. A full-length die sizes a case, but not down to original virgin dimensions (especially about a quarter-inch from the case head, just above the extractor groove).
A drop-in case gage is a quick QC check for headspace shoulder-bump length (short or requires trimming-to-length). A too-long case may stick in your chamber at the case mouth when a bullet is seated.
I forgot to mention I resized a case and cut the entire neck off to make sure the case was not too long and hitting the chamber. The case behaved the same in both situations.
Cokie,
It sounds like you already have the proper tools to measure your headspace (and that you are sizing that plenty). A drop in case gauge will also allow you to quickly check headspace, if you feel that you need to do so.
From what you have described your full length sizing die is not sizing the case enough just above the case head. This can be a common occurrence with semi-auto rifles. A small base die will likely resolve this issue. Measuring the diameter of the case body with calipers is accurate enough, we do it in Benchrest all the time. Ideally you want the body just above the base to size by about 1 thou (.001).
As to the expander die versus the expander ball, I believe that the expander die with a properly sized mandrel will give you better results than the expander ball in your FL die. Neck turning and a bushing die will yield the best results but neck turning is a special kind of hell (I turn about 500 cases each winter for the coming season) and I would not wish it on anyone.
21st century, KM Tools, and Sinclair all make Die Bodies and Mandrels.
Be sure to read the sizes on the mandrels before buying. In my experience it is also a good idea to mic them yourself, even the best tool makers have a bad day.
Finally, you may find that a crimp die (with a light crimp) will be necessary/advantageous for your situation.
Good Luck,
Josh
edit:
if pics will help feel free to ask, im not waking up the wife by digging out stuff to take pics now LOL
I am interested in this neck expander die. What are your recommendations for products, and is it as simple as FL sizing and then taking the cases and expanding them in the new die?
Yes. I think I have the RCBS neck expander die. The reason for the die is that I removed the expander ball from the die since it's so rough on brass. (neck stretch & runout)
I get straighter necks that need less trimming. Most of the time I put the brass in my Giraud and only get a chamfer... with no trimming at all.
I second the small base dies. I had a batch of Blackout that I got to the range after having used the Red dies on, with no problems previously, but these just wouldn't chamber. Got a case gauge and they don't fit. Si went with the RCBS small base and I've never had a problem since. I use them on Blackout and .308, my 223/556 rifles seem fine without needing a SB.
I'm sorry to take this further off track, but I gotta ask you guys running expander mandrels...
1. Are you expanding after dumping powder? I have an RL550B, and my vague plan was that after sizing/trimming on a single stage, I would load in one tool head, so #1 decap/prime, #2 powder, #3 seat bullet, #4 crimp. I guess I could skip the crimp and run the expander as #3 and seat bullets at #4...
2. Is there a better/best mandrel die? Or are they all about the same?
I'm sorry to take this further off track, but I gotta ask you guys running expander mandrels...
1. Are you expanding after dumping powder? I have an RL550B, and my vague plan was that after sizing/trimming on a single stage, I would load in one tool head, so #1 decap/prime, #2 powder, #3 seat bullet, #4 crimp. I guess I could skip the crimp and run the expander as #3 and seat bullets at #4...
2. Is there a better/best mandrel die? Or are they all about the same?
The expander die would go before dumping powder. Otherwise it will probably hit the powder. I'm using the Lyman M-Die, same one as BigEd posted. It expands the neck only 1 thousandth for me which is perfect. I only run it partially inside the case mouth with some dry powder lube, not all the way to the step because I don't need to flare the mouth. I'm getting pretty much zero runout and like MarkM says, the cases aren't growing hardly at all.
The expander die would go before dumping powder.
Short of upgrading to an XL650 (five stations), how would I do this on a RL550B, with only four stations?
Short of upgrading to an XL650 (five stations), how would I do this on a RL550B, with only four stations?
I'll defer to a more experienced dillon user for this question. A seat/crimp die would accomplish this goal, but I'm not sure if they are any good at seating or crimping. Stage 1-decap/prime/resize, 2-Lyman M, 3-powder, 4-seat/crimp.
On the RL550B the powder drop is always station #2...
It does occur to me that if I decap and size when I trim (separately, beforehand), then I could put a neck expander in position #1, and prime there, too...
Not sure how markm does his, but I size and expand my necks on a separate press. I also hand prime, everything. Station 1 on my Dillon is empty when doing 223.
edit: I too do my 223 on a 550B
Not sure how markm does his, but I size and expand my necks on a separate press. I also hand prime, everything. Station 1 on my Dillon is empty when doing 223.
edit: I too do my 223 on a 550B
Exactly how I do it.
Coal Dragger
12-01-17, 09:28
I'm sorry to take this further off track, but I gotta ask you guys running expander mandrels...
1. Are you expanding after dumping powder? I have an RL550B, and my vague plan was that after sizing/trimming on a single stage, I would load in one tool head, so #1 decap/prime, #2 powder, #3 seat bullet, #4 crimp. I guess I could skip the crimp and run the expander as #3 and seat bullets at #4...
2. Is there a better/best mandrel die? Or are they all about the same?
De-cap on the single stage with a universal de-cap die then run your other steps. Better yet, just set up a brass prep toolhead for your RL550B that de-caps at #1 then has your sizing die in 2, 3, or 4. Then trim.
Final load toolhead will hold your expander mandrel die at station #1. Then final load stations as normal.
That is how I run my XL650. Brass prep toolhead with universal de-cap at #1, Dillon size/trim die at #4 with an RT1500 trimmer mounted on the size/trim die. Cases then go to final wash in SS media, knocks any burrs or trimmer flashing off, and case lube, also cleans primer pockets.
Then final load with an expander at 1, powder at 2, powder check probe at 3, seating die at 4, crimp die (if desired) at 5.
A bit of experimentation will yield a trim length that will account for any minimal neck growth the expander die/mandrel imparts.
fedupflyer
12-01-17, 12:30
On a Dillion 650, if you trim at station 3 it leaves enough room for an expander mandrel at station 5.
This is the way I run it and it works well.
At least till I upgrade to a 1050 with a Mark 7 autodrive.
Thanks, guys!
It's this kind of good advice that keeps me coming back here...
Coal Dragger
12-01-17, 13:33
On a Dillion 650, if you trim at station 3 it leaves enough room for an expander mandrel at station 5.
This is the way I run it and it works well.
At least till I upgrade to a 1050 with a Mark 7 autodrive.
I’d love to size/trim at station 3 on the 650 but the tool head retainer pin is inaccessible in that position unless you unmount the trimmer from the sizing die. I just hate needing to readjust it every time I set up for brass prep. I guess I’d eventually just get good at it.
I did not do the small case die process. I have a 4 hole Lee press. I have 2 different dies in it. I have 2 full length resizer dies and 2 neck resizer dies. I do a full length resize and then turn it one spot and do a neck resize. Since I load for 6 different .223 rifles, some with NATO chambers and some with .223 chambers I have not had a case fail to load in any rifle since doing this. After doing the resize, I do my case trim with a Little Crow (WFT) trimmer. Then I address the crimped primer and any neck issues. Yes, it's an extra step but it has worked great for me.
kwg
fedupflyer
12-02-17, 23:18
I’d love to size/trim at station 3 on the 650 but the tool head retainer pin is inaccessible in that position unless you unmount the trimmer from the sizing die. I just hate needing to readjust it every time I set up for brass prep. I guess I’d eventually just get good at it.
Clamping the tool head will let you use screws that are shorter than the pins from Dillion and lets you put the trimmer in station 3 without haveing to remove the trimmer fro the die.
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