View Full Version : Magnified optic or seperate magnifier?
Where should I spend my money? Trying to keep it inexpensive. I already have a Aimpoint Pro red dot but my eyes say they need some magnification. Thinking about a Vortex Sptifire 3X or Vortex magnifier.
Thanks
AZRenegade
11-30-17, 09:05
I have both. I prefer the Spitfire with the etched reticle. Less clutter on the rail, lighter weight than the 3x/red dot combo and, although it has the capability to be illuminated, the reticle is visible in daylight/low light without lighting so battery life concerns aren't an issue. At night you have the option of red or green to illuminate the reticle. In fact, my 3x magnifier is sitting in my gun safe. I never use it. I use my red dot for close range and my Spitfire when additional magnification is required.
I'm a huge fan of magnifiers. I used one in Iraq and it was indispensable for PID at distance while not sacrificing my ability to clear rooms(Although to be honest, I'm probably going to crank off that first round just looking over the front sight post in a room). You can also use it on multiple guns.
I'm a huge fan of magnifiers. I used one in Iraq and it was indispensable for PID at distance while not sacrificing my ability to clear rooms(Although to be honest, I'm probably going to crank off that first round just looking over the front sight post in a room). You can also use it on multiple guns.
What did you use?
My first two semi-legit AR optics were an Aimpoint PRO and a Burris AR332 3X. Like most old guys I have presbyopia and I quickly developed a liking for the etched reticle on the Burris.
The problem is for CQB stuff the 3X while not useless, is not conducive to speed and precision.
At this point the PRO is on my training rifle, the Burris AR332 is on my wife's rifle and the two HD's (an SBR and a pistol waiting on a stamp) are sporting a Spitfire 1X and a Burris AR 1X. The Spitfire 1X has the better reticle. The Spitfire is also lighter.
I also have a couple of scoped rifles, but that point being discussed.
If most of your shooting is 25 and out, I'd heartily recommend the Burris AR332 3X. I used it out to 600 and found the reticle to be accurate. A lot of eviewers say they prefer Spitfire 3X's reticle, I've never used one.
Cabela's has the AR332 and a Burris Fastfire combo for $349.00 - you'd have the 3X for 25 out and the Fire for close in. I haven't used the fastfire on an AR, but it does hold zero on a shotgun.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/hunting/optics/red-dot-sights/pc/104791680/c/104752080/sc/104526180/burris-ar-prism-fastfire/2491309.uts?slotId=0
They also have the Vortex Spitfire 3X for $300.00. http://www.cabelas.com/product/hunting/optics/red-dot-sights/pc/104791680/c/104752080/sc/104526180/vortex-spitfire-red-dot/1783390.uts?slotId=0
I'm sure you could find them elsewhere more inexpensively, I always check Cabela's first because I generally don't carry money, just my Cabela's card, and therefore we always have Cabela's Bucks.
Hope this helps.
OK, thanks all. I'm leaning toward the magnifier which will give me the option of 1X or 3X [and take up a lot of real estate..], kind of a poor man's Elcan. I would love to keep it all Aimpoint but their magnifier costs more than my Pro, same with EOtech. I'm thinking Vortex, are there any more in that price point and quality?
I'd like to add that my use is club 2 gun matches [and self defense]. The ranges of use are usually very close to 300m max. My performance last time was poor at distances of 50m and out. I thought I had the Aimpoint zeroed for 50m but when I checked yesterday it was 16 clicks high at 50m. I'm more confident now but 3X would sure help just finding the targets amongst the grass and bush the stage designers seem to enjoy...
Dr. Bullseye
11-30-17, 12:39
My first two semi-legit AR optics were an Aimpoint PRO and a Burris AR332 3X. Like most old guys I have presbyopia and I quickly developed a liking for the etched reticle on the Burris.
The problem is for CQB stuff the 3X while not useless, is not conducive to speed and precision.
At this point the PRO is on my training rifle, the Burris AR332 is on my wife's rifle and the two HD's (an SBR and a pistol waiting on a stamp) are sporting a Spitfire 1X and a Burris AR 1X. The Spitfire 1X has the better reticle. The Spitfire is also lighter.
I also have a couple of scoped rifles, but that point being discussed.
If most of your shooting is 25 and out, I'd heartily recommend the Burris AR332 3X. I used it out to 600 and found the reticle to be accurate. A lot of eviewers say they prefer Spitfire 3X's reticle, I've never used one.
Cabela's has the AR332 and a Burris Fastfire combo for $349.00 - you'd have the 3X for 25 out and the Fire for close in. I haven't used the fastfire on an AR, but it does hold zero on a shotgun.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/hunting/optics/red-dot-sights/pc/104791680/c/104752080/sc/104526180/burris-ar-prism-fastfire/2491309.uts?slotId=0
They also have the Vortex Spitfire 3X for $300.00. http://www.cabelas.com/product/hunting/optics/red-dot-sights/pc/104791680/c/104752080/sc/104526180/vortex-spitfire-red-dot/1783390.uts?slotId=0
I'm sure you could find them elsewhere more inexpensively, I always check Cabela's first because I generally don't carry money, just my Cabela's card, and therefore we always have Cabela's Bucks.
Hope this helps.
I have been looking at the Primary Arms 2.5X prism scope. It has an etched reticle and the reticle looks great. It is zeroed at 50 yards and supposed to be good to 25 yards. Question: if a threat pops up less than 25 yards away, do you really do much aiming? After all most Americans can hit a moving target with a football at that range. I am a new shooter and so this may seem like a stupid question for experienced guys.
Outlander Systems
11-30-17, 12:50
Aimed fire. Always.
do you really do much aiming?
WickedWillis
11-30-17, 13:17
I have been looking at the Primary Arms 2.5X prism scope. It has an etched reticle and the reticle looks great. It is zeroed at 50 yards and supposed to be good to 25 yards. Question: if a threat pops up less than 25 yards away, do you really do much aiming? After all most Americans can hit a moving target with a football at that range. I am a new shooter and so this may seem like a stupid question for experienced guys.
Stress does scary things to the body, and that 25yard and in shot is not ever a chip shot under adverse conditions. Whatever ranges for personal defense you can see yourself being in, train like crazy to get super comfortable in those proximities (SP). Don't assume you are going to step up just because of the optic you have mounted on your weapon.
Like Outlander said, Aimed fire every damn time.
I have been looking at the Primary Arms 2.5X prism scope. It has an etched reticle and the reticle looks great. It is zeroed at 50 yards and supposed to be good to 25 yards. Question: if a threat pops up less than 25 yards away, do you really do much aiming? After all most Americans can hit a moving target with a football at that range. I am a new shooter and so this may seem like a stupid question for experienced guys.
Best way to test that is find out for yourself. Find a match, class, etc and see how easy it is to hit a moving target at 25 yards. Now consider the target is shooting back at you, the dog is barking, there's a not much light, etc, etc. I'm far from a BTDT type, but you'd be amazed at what you'll miss under pressure with a handgun at a y 10 yards under adverse conditions. A long gun with an RDS on it helps considerably no doubt but still requires aimed fire which is far more difficult than many realize, until they try it.
I go with magnified optics, but only if their low power setting has very little if any magnification. You'll need to check thru the models available to see which will allow that. I prefer both eyes open at most ranges, so magnification at short distances screws up things.
With a lot of magnified optics going towards 6x, I don't see the need for two things mounted on the rifle. It presents more weight than what is needed.
Aimed fire. Always.
Concur. I used to think point shooting was faster, until I tried to use it under stress one day. Misses don’t count.
I tried a flip magnifier in AFG and didn’t like it. It felt like I had too much stuff going on on my gun.
I would go with a 1x variable optic or a fixed low power optic.
Dr. Bullseye
12-01-17, 12:49
OK guys, thanks. I will practice as you say. One more question. Some prism scopes come with a small iron sight mounted on top for this type of shooting. I know, you can also mount something like a Doctor Sight but one ACOG and a ScStar clone come with a small front and rear iron sight. What do you think of this setup? Would it be worth it to mount a rail on top of a prism and find a way to attach a small front-rear iron sight, assuming one is available?
This is the one:
https://shop.opticsplanet.com/trijicon-acog-4x32-red-dot-scope-w-center-amber-crosshair-308-bal.html?_iv_code=TJ-RS-TA01NSN-308&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6cmf-b3p1wIVQy-BCh3kLwA4EAYYASABEgItOPD_BwE
WickedWillis
12-01-17, 14:03
OK guys, thanks. I will practice as you say. One more question. Some prism scopes come with a small iron sight mounted on top for this type of shooting. I know, you can also mount something like a Doctor Sight but one ACOG and a ScStar clone come with a small front and rear iron sight. What do you think of this setup? Would it be worth it to mount a rail on top of a prism and find a way to attach a small front-rear iron sight, assuming one is available?
This is the one:
https://shop.opticsplanet.com/trijicon-acog-4x32-red-dot-scope-w-center-amber-crosshair-308-bal.html?_iv_code=TJ-RS-TA01NSN-308&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6cmf-b3p1wIVQy-BCh3kLwA4EAYYASABEgItOPD_BwE
The backup irons on some optics like the ACOG and Elcan are just that, back up irons. You can be effective with them if you train, but they are not necessary. I do suggest quality irons on your firearm in conjunction with an optic though, that you've also zeroed and trained with, just in case your optic ever does fail. YMMV.
Dr. Bullseye
12-02-17, 13:12
The backup irons on some optics like the ACOG and Elcan are just that, back up irons. You can be effective with them if you train, but they are not necessary. I do suggest quality irons on your firearm in conjunction with an optic though, that you've also zeroed and trained with, just in case your optic ever does fail. YMMV.
I have KAC Standard 200-600 back up irons and I train with them both live and dry fire a lot. My thought is if a threat pops up closer than for which the optic parameters are designed, would the tiny back up irons on top be the answer?
They can be if you train with them as said above.
OK, thanks all. I'm leaning toward the magnifier which will give me the option of 1X or 3X [and take up a lot of real estate..], kind of a poor man's Elcan. I would love to keep it all Aimpoint but their magnifier costs more than my Pro, same with EOtech. I'm thinking Vortex, are there any more in that price point and quality?
I'd like to add that my use is club 2 gun matches [and self defense]. The ranges of use are usually very close to 300m max. My performance last time was poor at distances of 50m and out. I thought I had the Aimpoint zeroed for 50m but when I checked yesterday it was 16 clicks high at 50m. I'm more confident now but 3X would sure help just finding the targets amongst the grass and bush the stage designers seem to enjoy...
http://www.brpguns.com/hensoldt-panzerfaust-scope/
Very clear optic. I had one in an Aimpoint twist mount combined with a PRO plus Primary Arms cantilever mount for awhile that was ok, but I think the absolute co-witness of the twist mount with the not quite absolute height of the PRO & QRP2 combo was less than ideal.
While the Hensoldt magnifier had nice clear glass, When I got a Leupold VXR 1.25-4x and compared the 2 setups in the low evening light the Leupold was the bright and clear winner.
Magnified optic or seperate magnifier?
It depends.
Honestly, it depends on the needs of your firearm. For me, for home defense purposes or similar, I run a red dot and a magnifier. If I need to crank up a scope to 6X to PID someone, then that probably isn't going to be a "good shoot" in the civilian court of law.
There are lots of opinions of people that have more experience than I do and are more educated on optics than I. However, I have run everything from a T1, T1 with magnifier, ACOGs, Razor 1-6 blah blah blah. I can’t stand a rifle that is too cumbersome or heavy. That being said I would put the big pig Razor 1-6 back on my rifle before I had something hanging off the side of my rifle again. It is in the way when shooting 1x and it is a half hearted attempt at a magnified optic when in use. If you just need PID then buy a monocular.
Honestly, it depends on the needs of your firearm. For me, for home defense purposes or similar, I run a red dot and a magnifier. If I need to crank up a scope to 6X to PID someone, then that probably isn't going to be a "good shoot" in the civilian court of law.
He will also be using it in matches out to 300 yards and the magnification comes in handy with small targets.
Dr. Bullseye
12-09-17, 16:06
The Russians mount prism, tritium, etched optics on their army weapons similar to the ACOG. They seem to only illuminate in dim light. When you look at who is using the 1x--8x adjustable optics, these are sophisticated shooters. Some have several tours behind them and now shoot competition. From the look of those videos there is no way an average guy could match them on any level. What I am saying is it may be your individual skill level and, as said, intended use, which decides what optic is best for you. So right now I'm just going with a fixed prism optic.
x
Coal Dragger
12-09-17, 16:51
Looking at this from a long term solution now that I’m in my late 30’s the best overall answer for many shooters is a low power variable. So a good 1-4, 1-5, 1-6 etc will be a better bet optically than a red dot sight.
I can still make out a pretty clear dot on my old Aimpoint Comp M2, although it has never rendered a clean perfect dot for me even when I was a 25 year old running it in Iraq. Other RDS’s give me a very clean dot like the Trijicon MRO, and the Leupold LCO (man that thing is optically awesome for a red dot) but that may change as I get older. It would suck to drop coin on a high quality RDS and then have your eyes tell you to piss off, and have to go buy a low power variable anyway.
I have a Nightforce 1-4X24 FC-3G reticle in a Nightforce Uni-Mount on my DD V11 Pro and it has been a good optic for the price. Nice crisp etched reticle, forgiving eye box. Not quite as fast as a RDS at up close but not too much of a handicap either, past 50-75 yards I think it is a distinct advantage over the RDS.
Someday I may have to try the Leupold LCO with a D-EVO behind it. Seems like the solution to me, but a pricey one.
Thank you all for your opinions and experience. I'm going to hold off for a while, shoot some more matches [with a correctly sighted RD] and see where it leads me. I have 3 basic considerations; cost, weight and real estate on my Colt upper. I could buy a new upper with more room and maybe less weight but that means no new optics for a while. I did try a full size musket [20"] a few days ago and it felt and fit great. I am well over 6' after all and I'm not getting in and out of a vehicle all day with a carbine.
The dot in my Pro is fairly clear despite my eyes being as middle aged as the rest of me. I did handle a Elcan 1 or 4x recently and loved it, everything except the price. Given my uses I think I will try to evaluate a 1-4x variable, 3x fixed and 3x magnifier. Whatever I end up getting needs to be something I can live with for a while.
grizzlyblake
12-10-17, 08:07
I have been going around and around with this same thing for a while now, as I have bad astigmatism for a 33 year old, which causes all the RDSs to look like grape clusters with big starbursts. I had an Aimpoint PRO for a while, and at close range it is wonderfully fast and easy. However, even bench zeroing at 25yds was frustrating because I could not get a consistent, sharp sight picture.
I don't shoot matches and I'm just a regular civilian Joe, but I decided a while back I wanted to put together a sort of "do all" rifle for home/property defense, hunting, etc. that would be solid for the next twenty years or more. I'm minimizing a lot of excess junk and this is what I am paring down to.
I bought a 6920 Trooper when they were under $700, and at the moment I'm nearly set on a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x in a Leupold IMS mount. I want covered turrets so I can zero and forget it. This is kind of my modern version of the budget "hanging over the fireplace" homestead rifle. Defend the house with a close to 1x illuminated dot reticle, and stretch it out at 4x for Indian raiding parties or whatever.
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