View Full Version : Musings on Compact AR's (CQB/Home D/Truck/BoB/etc.)
Diamondback
11-30-17, 16:43
First, please let me note that I'm tossing this in "General" rather than "Pistol" or "NFA" because it touches on both. Also, I'm not trying to present myself as an expert, but as a student I'm trying to distill some things I've picked up from this community into a single piece I'm writing about "General Principles of Compact-AR Building for Non-'Gun People,'" so this is more asking the experts to look over my shoulder and give feedback on what I'm doing right and what wrong. WARNING: WALL O' TEXT AHEAD!
The first question we need to ask is Expected Maximum Engagement Range. If we're looking at a range outside of about 300 yards necessitating magnified optics, fixed front sights become a liability, but for unmagnified use their simplicity as "one less moving part to fight with" becomes an advantage. Whether that fixed sight is a rail-mount on a free-float or a Front Sight Base gas-block is up to user preference, though rail-mount does allow you to place the sight closer to the muzzle using more of the total length for sight-radius.
Second becomes whether or not length is important to you. Under Federal law, 26" OAL is the boundary between "Pistol" and "Title I Other Firearm." State laws differ about what constitutes a "pistol" eligible for CCW or Vehicle Carry, though. If you're under a 26" OAL Cap like Michigan has, Upper and Lower Receivers account for 7-5/8," which reduces your available length to 18-3/8", so you'll want to stick to a Carbine-length buffer tube, ideally as short as possible. The Brownells 7-1/4" at https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/recoil-parts/recoil-hardware/ar-15-pistol-buffer-tube-6061-t6-black-sku080001330-102334-192451.aspx is a good fit here, leaving 11.25" for the barrel and muzzle device measured from upper receiver front-face. The LAW Tactical sidefolder, which I consider a must-have for any tight-spaces AR, takes another 1.3" bite out of that, capping combined Barrel/MD at 9.95".
If you're unfettered by an OAL Cap, your next concern becomes overall layout--if you like to use the space in front of the folded buffer to carry a spare mag as I do, your buffer/brace length becomes limited by the position of your spare mag and its carrier. As a general rule, though, the Vltor A5 system is *the* way to go unless you physically or legally can't spare the 3/4" of added length, in which case you should use either a Geissele Super 42 or a PWS H2 buffer and Sprinco Blue spring.
Distilling this down to a set of general principles:
1. Less moving parts to fight with is good when deployment speed is of the essence. Stick with a fixed front sight unless you plan to use magnified optics, which are generally more Reach Out & Touch Someone than Close Quarters.
2. Shorter barrels require different buffer systems than normal to operate reliably; depending on length requirements the Vltor A5, Geissele Super 42, or PWS H2+Sprinco Blue buffer systems are your best choices.
3. Barring personal aversion to the contrary, at least one onboard spare magazine mounted right on the gun will give you a guaranteed-ready reload if you don't have time to grab your spares.
4. If building a 10.3"/10.5," start with a barrel made to NSWC-Crane Mk 18 specs. If building a 12.5", start with the specs for the GL/SSC--it's better to start with proven military engineering and adapt it to your needs with new handguards, sights and such than try to reinvent the wheel from scratch. If this is your first build, definitely have a trusted friend who's in the AR community help you with input on selecting parts, or join the forum at M4Carbine.net and ask the SME's there for advice.
5. If there's ANY chance of a low- or no-light engagement, you will want a weapon-mounted light. A tailcap-switched light mounted near the tip of your support-hand thumb will go a long way in both giving you illumination and blinding the threat, without the complications of installing a tape-switch.
6. For speed of acquisition, a compact, lightweight laser is a helpful accessory--usually rail-mount lasers designed for pistols such as the LaserMax Uni-Max fit this pattern, so they're a much better fit than the big, boxy military-grade units.
I'm sure there's more to the puzzle than what I have here, so any jog of my memory, suggestions or refinements on what I have so far would be appreciated--bear in mind, I'm trying to write this for people who generally aren't Gun People, like your typical Word/Excel "computer user" versus a more in-depth "technical user," and the goal is kind of a "Compact AR's For Dummies" general framework while leaving latitude to adjust for individual needs and preferences. Goal is to publish next Wednesday, but I can kick the can down the road as needed until it's ready.
My head hurts and I didn't even read it all. Shorter is almost always better. It must be snowing in the NW.
Diamondback
11-30-17, 18:12
Well, thanks for the drive-by. The site I'm writing this for is an audience who *read*, not skim and soundbite.
You just need a 6920.
To me, based on my experience and training, a long rifle is an offensive weapon.
Unless you plan on busting in a bunker or a dope house then you really need not concern yourself with a short rifle.
It's a toy. I used SMGs and shotguns, but my bread and butter was a handgun. No matter what you do; a 5.56 in your house is going to be LOUD. I found out the hard way how loud both a shotgun and a subgun is indoors (on separate occasions). There is nothing you can really do about it.
I'm not saying you couldn't us an AR for HD but it wouldnt be ideal.
80% of your problems can be solved with a high cap handgun and a weaponlight for HD.
If you are getting home invaded, then you have already lost initiative. I'm not saying not have it if you had to bunker in place but even then....you could do that with rifle.
Honestly, I know we got a lot of rugged individuals on this forum but if you are actively getting broke in on; my best advice is to escape until you cant. Not out of legal issues,but survival. Going up against 5 or so of the fellas can result in you getting killed if they are fighters.
I know we like to say "huh huh Jamarius Jones is a wuss! hyuk hyuk" and by and large he is ...until he isnt. If the rest of the fellas want to stay and play then you are outnumbered.
Fact.
Naw....good handgun, maybe a couple of mags, and an escape route.
Unless you have actively trained to fight and are prepared to die for your TV and Jewelry then.....no.
I dont mean like took a self defense course or took a celebrity two day training course. I mean like endless hours of house clearing, initiative reclamation, and just endless rounds down the pipe.
Because good, solid trained men die every year with full advantage of back up, body armor, and all that jazz slugging it out in a house.
Do some force on force simunitions training in a building. It gets OK Corral and Hollywood pretty quick.
Plus other variables like kids and a spouse/partner.
My best advice us to drill on escaping until you cant and drilling it into loved ones to bunker in place if that is not and option.
Making a stand is when you have no other option. I'm sure some rugged snake eater will be along to say how milquetoast that is but for every home invasion that gets turned around there are a lot more that dont.
99% of it can be handled by home owners insurance because until you've looked a slim, gaunt teen in the eye, eye ball to eyeball, who is armed and you hesitate....
he will kill you.
Because anyone willing to enter an occupied and armed structure has made up their mind
So....maybe not what you wanted to hear but there it is
voiceofreason
11-30-17, 18:18
#5
my experience has been more positive with red dots over lasers
the red dot is ALWAYS within your power to pick up easily from anything close to a cheekweld (looking AT the target through the optic)
searching for a moving dot in a fast moving situation has been slower for me in low light training
unless you're referring to NODs which I'm not familiar enough with to comment on
No matter what you do; a 5.56 in your house is going to be LOUD. I found out the hard way how loud both a shotgun and a subgun is indoors (on separate occasions). There is nothing you can really do about it.
I'm not saying you couldn't us an AR for HD but it wouldnt be ideal.
A suppressed short barrel 5.56 makes a pretty damn good home defense rifle. It's quieter than an unsuppressed-pretty-much-any-other-option as well. Of course, you can suppress other things, but a suppressed short barrel AR need not be any longer (possibly shorter, even) than a standard 16" carbine, and still offers all of the advantages of the AR platform in general, which we all know about and are why we are on this site.
SBR, suppressor, Aimpoint, WML...what's not to like.
I actually read it all! so in no particular order.... I do understand the reasons why people do the AR pistol or new 14" Mossie Shockwave but to me they're all toys. There's nothing wrong with toys and they can be deadly but to my they're still toys and do not replace a solid plan that includes training and equipment, assuming proper mindset is already present.
If I need a 5.56 for my travels it will be a carbine. If I felt the need for a 5.56 for home defense it would be a rifle and a good set of electronic muffs. Even a pistol will hurt you in a bedroom, a 5.56 will bring you to your knees.
I've never had a folding front sight fail and I have two with fixed front sight bases but I'm not sure it matters if I was running a red dot or magnified optics. The FSP ghosts out with magnified optics anyway.
Laser's for the most part are the same to me, toys. IR and NOD's are a different animal. Lights are a must on any defensive tool regardless of what it is.
Over the years I've paid the tax and did the SBR thing a few times. It never leaves the safe anymore, see above. I've got too many AR's and if the market wasn't so soft I'd sale a few but they live in the safe. A Glock with 2 17 rounds mags and a SureFire light has been my HD of choice for many years. If I needed more I'd either be out the back door or dead so it wouldn't matter. If I felt like I needed to have an AR for self defense of my castle I would move.
Just build what you like and enjoy it, it's supposed to be fun and when it's not most of us won't do it anymore. After carrying them for a living for the last 30 years some of them are still fun, a lot are not. Good luck on your journey.
If I felt like I needed to have an AR for self defense of my castle I would move.
Logic, this makes absolutely none.
"If I felt like I needed to have a gun for self defense of my castle I would move" would make more sense, actually.
You recognize and admit that you might need a firearm for home defense, but write off the objectively more capable firearm because...why? If you need lethal force to stop an attacker that is in your home you need to stop them right now, why completely write off the tool (shoulder fired rifle/shotgun) that has proven itself time and again to be a superior fight stopper compared to a pistol cartridge'd pistol?
Sure, somebody might be more comfortable, competent, trained, etc with a pistol. Maybe they have reasons they prefer a pistol relating to use with one hand, ability to holster/conceal it, etc, but those are different stories
Handgun for home defense.
If I need a "long gun" it'll be a 14.5 or 16" barreled carbine.
Not a fan of shotguns for SD in general but if it was my last HD choice I'd obviously use it.
PDW's are a totally different subject, but I still wouldn't use it in the home setting (but might for up to maybe 200 meters). Handgun, like a G19 or G17 for the house. Not dogging on anyone who chooses otherwise, just my opinion.
Just build what you like and enjoy it, it's supposed to be fun and when it's not most of us won't do it anymore. After carrying them for a living for the last 30 years some of them are still fun, a lot are not. Good luck on your journey.
I liked this whole post, but that paragraph in particular is speaking to my soul.
OT but part of me wants to dump my pile for a VW Van and just live in the middle of nowhere.
On Topic, YES. When that shotgun went off I was right next to it and felt dizzy and sick. It was indoors. I recovered and pushed on but I attribute a good bit of tinnitus and that was when I had young, fresh 23 yo ears. Think hallway. Ugh.
Someone brought up suppressors. Yeah...no. A 556 suppressor is loud outdoors. It dont get quieter indoors.
Unless you keep peltors by the bed or are counting on auditory exclusion, you are in for a ride.
Logic, this makes absolutely none.
"If I felt like I needed to have a gun for self defense of my castle I would move" would make more sense, actually.
You recognize and admit that you might need a firearm for home defense, but write off the objectively more capable firearm because...why? If you need lethal force to stop an attacker that is in your home you need to stop them right now, why completely write off the tool (shoulder fired rifle/shotgun) that has proven itself time and again to be a superior fight stopper compared to a pistol cartridge'd pistol?
Sure, somebody might be more comfortable, competent, trained, etc with a pistol. Maybe they have reasons they prefer a pistol relating to use with one hand, ability to holster/conceal it, etc, but those are different stories
No not discounting or writing off anything, as I stated I've got several rifles and access to them. If I knew I had to defend myself tonight and couldn't go elsewhere an M-4 would be my first choice. Everyone needs to do thier own threat assessment based on thier location, crime rate, training, etc. I've just never felt that I needed more gun than I alluded to for my everyday HD weapon.
Stating that if I needed a gun for HD I would move is more logical is not what I said or meant. There is an obligation to protect your family that exceeds the "need". Do not think I am sugesting or telling you what you need, but have explained my needs based on my assessments of my current station in life.
There are times that optimum beats maximum and launching bullets inside a bedroom is one where I'll go with optimum. Different tools. For every scenario that you can come up with that makes a carbine better than a pistol inside a structure, there is one that would would also point to the handgun as the preferred weapon. Have you ever launched 5.56 rounds inside a small structure without ear protection? Ever went through your house at night because of that random bump? Do you have a wife and kids? Like I said we all have to make a decision based on our own assessment.
I liked this whole post, but that paragraph in particular is speaking to my soul.
OT but part of me wants to dump my pile for a VW Van and just live in the middle of nowhere.
On Topic, YES. When that shotgun went off I was right next to it and felt dizzy and sick. It was indoors. I recovered and pushed on but I attribute a good bit of tinnitus and that was when I had young, fresh 23 yo ears. Think hallway. Ugh.
Someone brought up suppressors. Yeah...no. A 556 suppressor is loud outdoors. It dont get quieter indoors.
Unless you keep peltors by the bed or are counting on auditory exclusion, you are in for a ride.
~140 db is much, much less loud than 165db and ~140 db (suppressed 5.56) is less loud than unsuppressed-anything (that would be suitable for home defense)
Guns are loud, including G17's, particularly indoors
.
~140 db is much, much less loud than 165db and ~140 db (suppressed 5.56) is less loud than unsuppressed-anything (that would be suitable for home defense)
Guns are loud, including G17's, particularly indoors
.
You obviously draw from a well of personal expertise and a wide breadth of training.
I shall defer to you and your ideas.
Outlander Systems
11-30-17, 20:22
Don't overthink this, dudes.
The tool is secondary to either fighting or fleeing.
Beat feet, or pull a trigger until the target changes shape, or catches fire. The end.
I have a 14.5” at for HD. It will be suppressed in a year.
Rifles beat handguns every time in my situation. My job is to keep my wife safe. If we are getting invaded, outside is an unknown, but I have a nice funnel set up by design of the structure.
No I don’t have professional experience, but I’ve shot enough rifles without ear pro to not be surprised by it.
Each situation is unique. I do think size is overrated, just my opinion. I think being outnumbered is still to my advantage based on structure, as I can get hits before they can see me, and n collateral damage is a non-issue.
Know your situation and train and equip accordingly. Having children spread throughout the house changes a lot.
Rifles still win due to control issues IMO, but again, structure plays a role.
You obviously draw from a well of personal expertise and a wide breadth of training.
I shall defer to you and your ideas.
If something I have stated is incorrect, by all means, speak up
Diamondback
12-01-17, 03:02
I have a 14.5” at for HD. It will be suppressed in a year.
Rifles beat handguns every time in my situation. My job is to keep my wife safe. If we are getting invaded, outside is an unknown, but I have a nice funnel set up by design of the structure.
No I don’t have professional experience, but I’ve shot enough rifles without ear pro to not be surprised by it.
Each situation is unique. I do think size is overrated, just my opinion. I think being outnumbered is still to my advantage based on structure, as I can get hits before they can see me, and n collateral damage is a non-issue.
Know your situation and train and equip accordingly. Having children spread throughout the house changes a lot.
Rifles still win due to control issues IMO, but again, structure plays a role.
In my case, I have a funnel ahead of me and an invalid relative behind me, with a second in same position as soon as we finish consolidating households. I *am*--have to be, since even if the house is on fire my mother's too morbidly obese to hoist and flop her ass out the window--as Agent K of the MIB put it "the best, last and only line of defense," have to be the goalkeeper who NOTHING gets past. (In some ways it'd be easier with the GF visiting, since with the spare bedroom across the hall from mine and tossing her the spare gun we'd have interlocking fields of fire down the hallway "funnel.") One of those crappy-ass '50s ramblers that have a garage at one end, bedrooms in a cluster around a short, narrow hallway at the other and only a single john, which makes life suck when two-thirds of the household love playing Craphouse Camper.
grizzlyblake
12-01-17, 06:09
I'm majorly hung up on the noise, maneuverability, and readiness condition of the carbine over the pistol for night-time home defense. My G19 with Ameriglo tritiums stays on my person all day and then transitions to my nightstand at bed time, staying in the kydex holster. I've woken up to several "bump in the night" situations and all of them have played out with me lying in bed with my G19 in hand trying to confirm if I actually heard something or if it was a dream that woke me. I've gotten out of bed and done some stealth looking/listening with all the lights still out and once I figure out something isn't going down I ease back to bed.
I don't see that playing out well with any long gun, and the only way to do it properly would be sling-less with a round chambered with a rifle so light it can be held only by the pistol grip while I work my way around using my off hand for tactile guidance on walls/door frames, etc.
Super bright weapon lights? No way. I have a ProTac 1L that I have to trigger the lowest light setting at first. I've accidentally tapped the high beam at 3am in my bedroom with it once and was nearly blind in the dark for 5+ minutes.
I dislike the noise of shooting my 6920 at the indoor range even with solid in-ear plugs and can't imagine how bad that would suck for me and all my family members to experience inside my house. The G19 sounds like a pea shooter at the indoor range, but I have a good cop friend who had a gun fight inside a fast food restaurant with his 9mm Sig many years ago and he wears a hearing aid to this day. The G19 is still going to suck in a house.
I'm not and never was a cop or military, and I've never shot at anyone. However, at this point the AR is a hobby/toy for me. Of course like everyone else I have it for the inevitable Walking Dead doomsday gunfighting I plan to be doing in my rural neighborhood when it goes down but that's a different story.
I'm sort of like Firefly in that I keep considering downsizing and letting all my stuff go except a primary and spare G19 and support gear for them.
Just because you have a rifle available for HD doens’t mean you can’t have a pistol too.
Depends what you do, who you are, where you live. I have had to shoot pigs on my property with zero notice and a limited engagement opportunity. While a methhead was on a home invasion / murder spree this spring within 5 miles of my house, my rifle was primary for quite awhile.
It’s a free country - do what you deem best for you, and live with the consequences of your actions.
Don't overthink this, dudes.
The tool is secondary to either fighting or fleeing.
Beat feet, or pull a trigger until the target changes shape, or catches fire. The end.
Just because you have a rifle available for HD doens’t mean you can’t have a pistol too.
Depends what you do, who you are, where you live. I have had to shoot pigs on my property with zero notice and a limited engagement opportunity. While a methhead was on a home invasion / murder spree this spring within 5 miles of my house, my rifle was primary for quite awhile.
It’s a free country - do what you deem best for you, and live with the consequences of your actions.
Both of these FTW.
Nobody knows what a GL/SSC is, much less how to copy the spec.
Lasers. Have you used one in a shoot house?
I'm majorly hung up on the noise, maneuverability, and readiness condition of the carbine over the pistol for night-time home defense. My G19 with Ameriglo tritiums stays on my person all day and then transitions to my nightstand at bed time, staying in the kydex holster. I've woken up to several "bump in the night" situations and all of them have played out with me lying in bed with my G19 in hand trying to confirm if I actually heard something or if it was a dream that woke me. I've gotten out of bed and done some stealth looking/listening with all the lights still out and once I figure out something isn't going down I ease back to bed.
I don't see that playing out well with any long gun, and the only way to do it properly would be sling-less with a round chambered with a rifle so light it can be held only by the pistol grip while I work my way around using my off hand for tactile guidance on walls/door frames, etc.
Super bright weapon lights? No way. I have a ProTac 1L that I have to trigger the lowest light setting at first. I've accidentally tapped the high beam at 3am in my bedroom with it once and was nearly blind in the dark for 5+ minutes.
I dislike the noise of shooting my 6920 at the indoor range even with solid in-ear plugs and can't imagine how bad that would suck for me and all my family members to experience inside my house. The G19 sounds like a pea shooter at the indoor range, but I have a good cop friend who had a gun fight inside a fast food restaurant with his 9mm Sig many years ago and he wears a hearing aid to this day. The G19 is still going to suck in a house.
I'm not and never was a cop or military, and I've never shot at anyone. However, at this point the AR is a hobby/toy for me. Of course like everyone else I have it for the inevitable Walking Dead doomsday gunfighting I plan to be doing in my rural neighborhood when it goes down but that's a different story.
I'm sort of like Firefly in that I keep considering downsizing and letting all my stuff go except a primary and spare G19 and support gear for them.
I can't imagine, personally, not having an alarm system with sensors on all doors/windows, and optionally other sensors where appropriate such as glass break/motion...the bump in the night is a lot less of a worry when there's no alarm sounding (and, of course, when the dogs don't care about it)
Having enough light in the house to be able to walk around at night without having to feel the walls with my hand is another thing I really like, and always make sure is the way it is. That way you can walk around the house while holding or carrying something with two hands, or one thing in each hand, you don't step on stuff that's on the floor, can identify quite a bit without any supplemental lighting, etc.
Clearly much different situations.
Just because you have a rifle available for HD doens’t mean you can’t have a pistol too.
Depends what you do, who you are, where you live. I have had to shoot pigs on my property with zero notice and a limited engagement opportunity. While a methhead was on a home invasion / murder spree this spring within 5 miles of my house, my rifle was primary for quite awhile.
It’s a free country - do what you deem best for you, and live with the consequences of your actions.
Absolutely. I always have access to both.
Lasers. Have you used one in a shoot house?
I have. What are you getting at?
Outlander Systems
12-01-17, 10:55
In the given scenario, guns are simply a medium for bullet delivery.
There isn't a "right" tool for the job. Zach Peters burned 3 scum****s down inside his house with a 20" Musket and iron sights.
If something I have stated is incorrect, by all means, speak up
I think Fly was remarking on your adamant stance regarding rifle/SBR in home defense. There are no absolutes.
We all view the battle as it takes place in our dreams. Bad guys have dreams, also. Their dreams aren't necessarily the same as ours.
Speaking for myself, if I had to limit myself to one weapon for home defense it would be a pistol.
From a purely subjective point of view, I've always found the the unsuppressed 9 or .45 to be more pleasant than the suppressed AR. It could be that my Omega just sucks, though.
RVTMaverick
12-01-17, 10:58
I'm sure there's more to the puzzle than what I have here, so any jog of my memory, suggestions or refinements on what I have so far would be appreciated--bear in mind, I'm trying to write this for people who generally aren't Gun People, like your typical Word/Excel "computer user" versus a more in-depth "technical user," and the goal is kind of a "Compact AR's For Dummies" general framework while leaving latitude to adjust for individual needs and preferences. Goal is to publish next Wednesday, but I can kick the can down the road as needed until it's ready.
Hey Diamondback,
I'm just wondering WHY,... why are you writing this, for this group of people you mentioned?
Is there a goal to try and turn these peps or? Again, just wondering.... Also, the way you wrote (or I read it, Scary LOL) all the information seemed very well informed, much more so than Me... Which leads me say, I must misunderstood the whole thing I guess... I was taking the write up as, more or less, a How To/Suggestions for Builds.... Then as I am reading the replies You already have received, I realized I completely Missed the Boat. :confused::suicide2:
I have. What are you getting at?
It's a question for the OP. Wondering what experience made him recommend one.
It's a question for the OP. Wondering what experience made him recommend one.
Roger. I misunderstood where you were going with that.
Averageman
12-01-17, 12:16
Every job has it's "best tool." like many States have "different laws" and every place has"different dimensions."
I might prefer a SBR or a quality AR pistol based on the above-mentioned differences.
I think Fly was remarking on your adamant stance regarding rifle/SBR in home defense. There are no absolutes.
We all view the battle as it takes place in our dreams. Bad guys have dreams, also. Their dreams aren't necessarily the same as ours.
Speaking for myself, if I had to limit myself to one weapon for home defense it would be a pistol.
From a purely subjective point of view, I've always found the the unsuppressed 9 or .45 to be more pleasant than the suppressed AR. It could be that my Omega just sucks, though.
I know there are no absolutes.
I also know that a suppressed 5.56 is less loud than an unsuppressed 9mm, so it doesn't really make sense to pick the louder unsuppressed 9mm because the less loud suppressed 5.56 is too loud.
Maybe that is an 'absolute'? Louder is louder, it's a quantifiable thing, and the difference is not insignificant.
Guy who shoots pistol in home, expecting it to be less loud:
“MAWP....MAAWP”
Listen to Clint Smith's short video. https://youtu.be/_APnhoIYeD0
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
...I've always found the the unsuppressed 9 or .45 to be more pleasant than the suppressed AR. It could be that my Omega just sucks, though.
I have a couple of suppressed shorties in 5.56. Both have an Omega with the 22 caliber flat cap. I find their report much more comfortable than from an unsuppressed 9mm or 45 ACP or any standard unsuppressed centerfire pistol caliber.
The first question we need to ask is Expected Maximum Engagement Range. If we're looking at a range outside of about 300 yards necessitating magnified optics, fixed front sights become a liability, but for unmagnified use their simplicity as "one less moving part to fight with" becomes an advantage. Whether that fixed sight is a rail-mount on a free-float or a Front Sight Base gas-block is up to user preference, though rail-mount does allow you to place the sight closer to the muzzle using more of the total length for sight-radius.
Iron sights are a matter of opinion. I shoot a shorty out to 300 yards or more using just an Aimpoint Micro. I don't use a magnified optic because I don't want the extra weight on either shorty. Neither shorty uses iron sights because a front sight interferes with mounting a flashlight in the 12 o'clock position. I've been running an Aimpoint Micro for a few years, fair weather, cold weather, rain, sleet and snow. Not once have I ever said to myself "Boy, am I glad I have BUIS!" Usually, my thought has been "I could see better without that damned front sight in the way!"
With iron sights, a 1/3 lower co-witness mount works better than an absolute co-witness mount. When looking through an RDS, I can see better with the 1/3 lower co-witness mount because I can look over the front sight for a less cluttered view.
The above is just my personal experience and is subjective. The inclusion of BUIS should be based on the needs, wants and preferences of each individual which will evolve with experience. Present the pros and cons and let your readers decide for themselves.
Below, is the real reason I want to respond to your post-
2. Shorter barrels require different buffer systems than normal to operate reliably; depending on length requirements the Vltor A5, Geissele Super 42, or PWS H2+Sprinco Blue buffer systems are your best choices.
Shorties don't need special springs or buffers. They need, like any other AR, a balanced operating system. One of the softest shorties I've fired uses a carbine RE, H buffer and Colt carbine spring and that's with a suppressor. The reason it shoots soft is because the gas flow is right. It would be a disservice to your readers to have them thinking shorties need special buffers or special springs, when all any AR needs is a balanced operating system and quality springs.
Diamondback
12-01-17, 13:18
Hey Diamondback,
I'm just wondering WHY,... why are you writing this, for this group of people you mentioned?
Is there a goal to try and turn these peps or? Again, just wondering.... Also, the way you wrote (or I read it, Scary LOL) all the information seemed very well informed, much more so than Me... Which leads me say, I must misunderstood the whole thing I guess... I was taking the write up as, more or less, a How To/Suggestions for Builds.... Then as I am reading the replies You already have received, I realized I completely Missed the Boat. :confused::suicide2:
Mainly, it's because a lot of these people see me as "That Gun Guy Friend to ask for free advice"... since several have been starting to get curious about AR pistols of late, I was thinking to start them with a "primer," not so much a "detailed cookbook." I figure more in-depth followups can be future pieces, since I'm usually shooting for 600-800 word length a week. Some of these people are craftsman-types in other hobbies, so I wanted to do something a little better for their DIY and "personal touch" streaks than "buy a stripped lower and a DD Mk 18 URG, slap on an A5 buffer system plus Concussion Reduction Device and grip of choice, BOOM, done."
grizzlyblake
12-01-17, 13:30
Listen to Clint Smith's short video. https://youtu.be/_APnhoIYeD0
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I sure don't walk through my house with my pistol held straight out like Clint was doing. Neat demo, but not exactly accurate. Even just shooting on a square range I am much tighter than that with my rear sight no more than 12" away from my nose.
I'm also not very concerned about a home invasion. In this area we generally only see armed home invasions to an occupied house if the house is a drug house or there is some other activity warranting that behavior. It's being out amongst the general public that's shaky.
Even just shooting on a square range I am much tighter than that with my rear sight no more than 12" away from my nose.
Like this tactical guru??? :D
Tight. :p
48993
I have a couple of suppressed shorties in 5.56. Both have an Omega with the 22 caliber flat cap. I find their report much more comfortable than from an unsuppressed 9mm or 45 ACP or any standard unsuppressed centerfire pistol caliber.
Would the 22 caliber flat cap make that much difference? 223/556 seems sharper to me.
Outlander Systems
12-01-17, 17:00
That's a General.
10/10 Dude's a champion. If he's getting hits and qual'ing with his Joes, who gives a **** if hes not tactical turtling like Chris Coastie?
Like this tactical guru??? :D
Tight. :p
48993
That's a General.
10/10 Dude's a champion. If he's getting hits and qual'ing with his Joes, who gives a **** if hes not tactical turtling like Chris Coastie?
Plenty more fail in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc-pQH9GSxA
But it was more of a comment to the brah who puts his pistol 12" in from of his grape than a dig on how horrible Army (and .MIL) pistol training is. Rock solid, I'm sure he kills it with recoil management! :D
I sure don't walk through my house with my pistol held straight out like Clint was doing. Neat demo, but not exactly accurate. Even just shooting on a square range I am much tighter than that with my rear sight no more than 12" away from my nose.
I'm also not very concerned about a home invasion. In this area we generally only see armed home invasions to an occupied house if the house is a drug house or there is some other activity warranting that behavior. It's being out amongst the general public that's shaky.
You shouldn’t be clearing a house with the gun shouldered and pointing straight out either.
If you only had 1 shot to take what would you choose? I'll take my 12GA over my 9mm, .40 or 5.56.
12"! How long are your arms? I'd guess I'm 18"away from my grape. I am a nose on the CH shooter
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Would the 22 caliber flat cap make that much difference? 223/556 seems sharper to me.
I can't tell you, I didn't shoot it with the 30 caliber cap very much. But even with the 30 caliber cap, it was quieter than shooting an unsuppressed pistol.
If you only had 1 shot to take what would you choose? I'll take my 12GA over my 9mm, .40 or 5.56.
12"! How long are your arms? I'd guess I'm 18"away from my grape. I am a nose on the CH shooter
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This touches on something near and dear to my heart. I would, and have. chosen a short barreled shotgun over a subgun. I know a lot of people might disagree but I was taught how to run a shotgun and it seemed handier than a subgun and certainly a rifle.
If a rifle is your only weapon, make it work. Guys in WWII were clearing houses with M1 Garands.
Caveat: The learning curve on a shotgun is super steep and you better have extra shells or a shell dispenser and you better be ready to reload in battery.
I used the 14" Mossberg and a standard M1 Super 90. Way more handy, to me, than a heavy, squat 9mm subgun plus mags. If I had to go to pistol it was on my hip.
Again get ready for tinnitus but vis a vis an un armored subject, wadding plus shot will ruin their afternoon.
We are veering into shotgun land, but I'd sooner have an autoloader than a pump. Good PM plus proper shells and it wont handicap like a pump.
I know everybody thinks that a Mk. 18 with NT4, Scout, DBAL, and Aimpoint is "the answer" because CAG or SEALs use it...but they have a way different function than Joe Homebody.
Look at the Vietnam War Tunnel Rats for historical reference. A pistol and maybe a sawed off shotgun. Because you are going to be in a tight area. I bring up ear damage but also, speed. Lightest with the Rightest.
I can retake initiative with a handgun and a few spare mags because I can move faster and have a natural extension of my arm. Carrying a stick of any kind is unnatural.
You better be up on Dot Torture and your El Prez.
Most house fighting is going to be at hand off distance or closer. What I lack in numbers I want to compensate with speed and volume.
Grab your (unloaded) handgun and run through your house. Then grab your (unloaded) SBR.
See which one, honestly makes you faster. Then try to negotiate and do an "oh shit" where you have to fall back.
Lightest with the Rightest
This touches on something near and dear to my heart. I would, and have. chosen a short barreled shotgun over a subgun. I know a lot of people might disagree but I was taught how to run a shotgun and it seemed handier than a subgun and certainly a rifle.
If a rifle is your only weapon, make it work. Guys in WWII were clearing houses with M1 Garands.
Caveat: The learning curve on a shotgun is super steep and you better have extra shells or a shell dispenser and you better be ready to reload in battery.
I used the 14" Mossberg and a standard M1 Super 90. Way more handy, to me, than a heavy, squat 9mm subgun plus mags. If I had to go to pistol it was on my hip.
Again get ready for tinnitus but vis a vis an un armored subject, wadding plus shot will ruin their afternoon.
We are veering into shotgun land, but I'd sooner have an autoloader than a pump. Good PM plus proper shells and it wont handicap like a pump.
I know everybody thinks that a Mk. 18 with NT4, Scout, DBAL, and Aimpoint is "the answer" because CAG or SEALs use it...but they have a way different function than Joe Homebody.
Look at the Vietnam War Tunnel Rats for historical reference. A pistol and maybe a sawed off shotgun. Because you are going to be in a tight area. I bring up ear damage but also, speed. Lightest with the Rightest.
I can retake initiative with a handgun and a few spare mags because I can move faster and have a natural extension of my arm. Carrying a stick of any kind is unnatural.
You better be up on Dot Torture and your El Prez.
Most house fighting is going to be at hand off distance or closer. What I lack in numbers I want to compensate with speed and volume.
Grab your (unloaded) handgun and run through your house. Then grab your (unloaded) SBR.
See which one, honestly makes you faster. Then try to negotiate and do an "oh shit" where you have to fall back.
Lightest with the Rightest
I ignored the shotgun for years but I shoot it well and have decades of muscle memory with it. It's all very natural for me. I have a SBS 870 in the works. I bought a SF foreend for it. Clint Smith's statement that well aimed shotgun shells will remove chunks of muscle and bone from the bad guys.
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I ignored the shotgun for years but I shoot it well and have decades of muscle memory with it. It's all very natural for me. I have a SBS 870 in the works. I bought a SF foreend for it. Clint Smith's statement that well aimed shotgun shells will remove chunks of muscle and bone from the bad guys.
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I agree.
I wont dispute that a shotgun is a niche weapon requiring solid training but....without getting morbid look at a suicide with a pistol vs a shotgun.
With the right load, you can almost dismember somebody with a shotgun at close range.
I agree.
I wont dispute that a shotgun is a niche weapon requiring solid training but....without getting morbid look at a suicide with a pistol vs a shotgun.
With the right load, you can almost dismember somebody with a shotgun at close range.
On a side note, I've seen a report of a guy who ****ed up a suicide with a 12 gauge. Moral of that story, if you going to do it, lean it in, and not out. Lol. Legit worse case of suicide I seen. Lol.
The best was the .270 though. Brain matter in the front drive way.
Too morbid? Maybe. I have a morbid sense of humor though. I'll laugh before puking.
I agree.
I wont dispute that a shotgun is a niche weapon requiring solid training but....without getting morbid look at a suicide with a pistol vs a shotgun.
With the right load, you can almost dismember somebody with a shotgun at close range.
Absolutely true. He got me thinking. I carry a 9mm Shield and a spare mag. It’s the gun I’ve got with me tonight but if I could choose one for inside my house it would probably be the 870. Big Holes!
https://youtu.be/dbqe7idEcLM
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I can't tell you, I didn't shoot it with the 30 caliber cap very much. But even with the 30 caliber cap, it was quieter than shooting an unsuppressed pistol.
I have the 'brake' on mine, have you ever shot yours with the brake on it?
This is my first suppressor, so I'm not very savvy.
I found a flat cap flat cap for 62.00, don't want to spend that much if it isn't going to calm things down.
Thanks.
If you're going to specialize for HD, I think a 7-8" .300BLK with a stubby can running light, fast supers is the way to go. It's going to be shorter than an 18" riot gun, quicker follow ups, greater capacity and quieter than an unsuppressed pistol.
26th Inf, I did try the 30 caliber brake for a bit. The flat cap did seem quieter, but that's measured with my very unscientific, partially deaf ear. Even if it made no difference in sound level, I would still use the flat cap because it shortens the overall length of the silencer.
Call Silencerco. They will swap caps with you. It does not have to be a front cap for a front cap either. They will swap a back cap for a front cap. I think your cap needs to be unused, but ask them for details. I went to their factory and they traded caps and muzzle devices with me.
Absolutely true. He got me thinking. I carry a 9mm Shield and a spare mag. It’s the gun I’ve got with me tonight but if I could choose one for inside my house it would probably be the 870. Big Holes!
https://youtu.be/dbqe7idEcLM
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One day, I'm gonna SBS a Benelli M4 just for that. If ya wanted to really ruin someone's day get a Brenneke slug. Oowee.
A short 300 blk with suppressor seems like a good idea but is also kind of an investment. I wont dispute the concept but thats stamps and all. A 300 blk gun is interesting to me but way on the backburner.
IF I were gonna do up a house AR then I would look hard at a 300 black. I've gotten to shoot them and honestly it was pretty quiet. I just dont feel like messing with one of my own until I've checked off a few boxes.
Meh aint skeered. Im too poor to steal from, too ugly to rape, and too mean to rob.
One day, I'm gonna SBS a Benelli M4 just for that. If ya wanted to really ruin someone's day get a Brenneke slug. Oowee.
A short 300 blk with suppressor seems like a good idea but is also kind of an investment. I wont dispute the concept but thats stamps and all. A 300 blk gun is interesting to me but way on the backburner.
IF I were gonna do up a house AR then I would look hard at a 300 black. I've gotten to shoot them and honestly it was pretty quiet. I just dont feel like messing with one of my own until I've checked off a few boxes.
Meh aint skeered. Im too poor to steal from, too ugly to rape, and too mean to rob.
I feel you. I haven't made that investment yet either, but I'm close. My house gun is a grip reduced G-21SF with X300/DG switch and Arrendondo +4's, stoked with 230gr Gold Dots. 18 rounds of .45ACP seems like a lot to walk through, not to mention three extra 17rd mags. :stop:
26th Inf, I did try the 30 caliber brake for a bit. The flat cap did seem quieter, but that's measured with my very unscientific, partially deaf ear. Even if it made no difference in sound level, I would still use the flat cap because it shortens the overall length of the silencer.
Call Silencerco. They will swap caps with you. It does not have to be a front cap for a front cap either. They will swap a back cap for a front cap. I think your cap needs to be unused, but ask them for details. I went to their factory and they traded caps and muzzle devices with me.
Thanks. I've used everything, LOL. Well I do have a couple of shims left. I'm going to go ahead and order one from Bud's gun shop, they seem to have the best price. Thanks again.
grizzlyblake
12-02-17, 06:35
If you only had 1 shot to take what would you choose? I'll take my 12GA over my 9mm, .40 or 5.56.
12"! How long are your arms? I'd guess I'm 18"away from my grape. I am a nose on the CH shooter
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I'm freaking short! 5'6". I just grabbed a tape measure and it looks like I tend to be about 15" from tip of my nose to rear of my G19 slide. So maybe that Clint Smith clip wasn't wrong, I just feel a lot tighter inside the house with a pistol. Ignore my comments though, they tend to be retarded which is why I've posted so little over the years.
I'm freaking short! 5'6". I just grabbed a tape measure and it looks like I tend to be about 15" from tip of my nose to rear of my G19 slide. So maybe that Clint Smith clip wasn't wrong, I just feel a lot tighter inside the house with a pistol. Ignore my comments though, they tend to be retarded which is why I've posted so little over the years.
Well you were smarter than me. You used a tape measure. As I was sitting in my parked car I took a sheet of paper and measured with that to guestimate 18".
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Diamondback
12-02-17, 10:53
I'm freaking short! 5'6". I just grabbed a tape measure and it looks like I tend to be about 15" from tip of my nose to rear of my G19 slide. So maybe that Clint Smith clip wasn't wrong, I just feel a lot tighter inside the house with a pistol. Ignore my comments though, they tend to be retarded which is why I've posted so little over the years.
Hang in there, man--nice to know I'm not the only Sawed-Off member here. :)
If you only had 1 shot to take what would you choose? I'll take my 12GA over my 9mm, .40 or 5.56.
If I only had one shot to take, it would be with a rifle. That rifle would be an AR, either an SBR or pistol with the SBS arm brace and suppressed. A rifle is what I shoot best and a short, suppressed AR is what I shoot best at close ranges.
If I only had one shot to take, it would be with a rifle. That rifle would be an AR, either an SBR or pistol with the SBS arm brace and suppressed. A rifle is what I shoot best and a short, suppressed AR is what I shoot best at close ranges.
Thankfully there is no reason to expect only being able to get one shot.
Although, the slowest follow up shots of the options listed would likely be with the shotgun, so it makes sense to think in terms of one shot if that's your choice, hehe
Thankfully there is no reason to expect only being able to get one shot.
Although, the slowest follow up shots of the options listed would likely be with the shotgun, so it makes sense to think in terms of one shot if that's your choice, hehe
Clint's example is a reasonable one. Someone is coming at you across the bedroom with a knife and you have time for one well placed shot.
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Its an autoloader world. I have sentimentality for the pump but, it is indeed an autoloader world.
Again the learning curve on combat shotgunnery is pretty steep.
Lessay I lived somewhere that banned pistols and shotguns but somehow AR15s were A-Okay.
6920 is more than enough gun. You dont deal with NFA and it is super common.
Keep in mind if you have to shoot someone, they are taking your gun for evidentiary purposes and depending on how it goes they will keep your gun for potentially years.
Any doodads like a light can be affixed with a MOE and a flattop optic like whatever RDS. Keep peltors nearby. I dont mind whatever investigating agency having my easily replaced 900 dollar 6920. But Mk. 18 Clones and Suppressors are just gonna be what I call Jury Bait.
Massad Ayoob (love him or hate him) didnt mind documenting unique Self Defense cases. Back in the 80s, an HK Employee(Yes, THAT HK) was being chased by Meth head bikers. He pulls into the HK parking lot and engages with both a VP70 and an AC556 that he was entrusted for research. The VP70 doesnt faze them and the return fire. He magdumps and nails like two of them with 5.56 from the Ruger. Fairfax County DA made SUCH A PRODUCTION over the fact that it was a full auto rifle while glossing over the fact he was being chased by armed meth head bikers.
This was before iPhones.
The guy got found Not Guilty but by a frog's hair.
So going up against 12 dumbasses who think life is like NCIS or SVU and know nothing of NFA; having a kitted out CAG clone can easily work against you. Especially if you have NODs.
They will ask "Gee why didnt you run away? Why did you ambush them? Why didnt you give a warning?"
I have seen enough Grand Juries and know they ask some pretty stupid questions. Well.....not "stupid" but they just don't know all this stuff. Joe and Susie Sixpack dont read up on NFA law.
Best advice I ever got from a Salt is "You want to make it so you only did what you had to do."
Putting in cute things like a binary trigger or a SD3G can work against you same as the punisher skull lower or the "Surprise Faggot" or "Eat Shit" dust cover.
But something reasonable you can buy at Walmart or whatever will go a long way.
If I had to use a rifle, I'd bunker in place and let them come to me, figure 8, and problem solve. Because if I cant escape they are leaving me no choice.
There are more optics at play than legos with guns.
If you ever get indicted, you'll find out how cool the jury really thinks your guns are.
Because they will be paraded around while an alcoholic DA makes you out to be some Alt Right White Nationalist waiting to get his Rambo on. He only cares about stats. If you get True Billed, he will offer you to plead to manslaughter and/or agg assault. He'll "do you a favor" and drop discharging in city limits. Because aside from your lawyer, you got court costs.
Thats another thing. Have two lawyers in your phone. Doesnt matter who. At least two with an after hours answering service.
That is more practical preparation than your NSWC Mk. 18 clone.
Not trying to be snarky or effusive but, a gun is 1% of you 99% self defense problems.
Its an autoloader world. I have sentimentality for the pump but, it is indeed an autoloader world.
Again the learning curve on combat shotgunnery is pretty steep.
Lessay I lived somewhere that banned pistols and shotguns but somehow AR15s were A-Okay.
6920 is more than enough gun. You dont deal with NFA and it is super common.
Keep in mind if you have to shoot someone, they are taking your gun for evidentiary purposes and depending on how it goes they will keep your gun for potentially years.
Any doodads like a light can be affixed with a MOE and a flattop optic like whatever RDS. Keep peltors nearby. I dont mind whatever investigating agency having my easily replaced 900 dollar 6920. But Mk. 18 Clones and Suppressors are just gonna be what I call Jury Bait.
Massad Ayoob (love him or hate him) didnt mind documenting unique Self Defense cases. Back in the 80s, an HK Employee(Yes, THAT HK) was being chased by Meth head bikers. He pulls into the HK parking lot and engages with both a VP70 and an AC556 that he was entrusted for research. The VP70 doesnt faze them and the return fire. He magdumps and nails like two of them with 5.56 from the Ruger. Fairfax County DA made SUCH A PRODUCTION over the fact that it was a full auto rifle while glossing over the fact he was being chased by armed meth head bikers.
This was before iPhones.
The guy got found Not Guilty but by a frog's hair.
So going up against 12 dumbasses who think life is like NCIS or SVU and know nothing of NFA; having a kitted out CAG clone can easily work against you. Especially if you have NODs.
They will ask "Gee why didnt you run away? Why did you ambush them? Why didnt you give a warning?"
I have seen enough Grand Juries and know they ask some pretty stupid questions. Well.....not "stupid" but they just don't know all this stuff. Joe and Susie Sixpack dont read up on NFA law.
Best advice I ever got from a Salt is "You want to make it so you only did what you had to do."
Putting in cute things like a binary trigger or a SD3G can work against you same as the punisher skull lower or the "Surprise Faggot" or "Eat Shit" dust cover.
But something reasonable you can buy at Walmart or whatever will go a long way.
If I had to use a rifle, I'd bunker in place and let them come to me, figure 8, and problem solve. Because if I cant escape they are leaving me no choice.
There are more optics at play than legos with guns.
If you ever get indicted, you'll find out how cool the jury really thinks your guns are.
Because they will be paraded around while an alcoholic DA makes you out to be some Alt Right White Nationalist waiting to get his Rambo on. He only cares about stats. If you get True Billed, he will offer you to plead to manslaughter and/or agg assault. He'll "do you a favor" and drop discharging in city limits. Because aside from your lawyer, you got court costs.
Thats another thing. Have two lawyers in your phone. Doesnt matter who. At least two with an after hours answering service.
That is more practical preparation than your NSWC Mk. 18 clone.
Not trying to be snarky or effusive but, a gun is 1% of you 99% self defense problems.
I had a Winchester 1300 Defender for a short time. I would double stroke it. It had some type of assisted opening and with the recoil all you needed to do was close the action. It messed me up! For me racking the slide is automatic with the recoil.
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If I have to defend my life, I don't really care if a rifle / handgun / suppressor is in lock up for awhile. I have others and my life is worth a couple $K.
Valid point for sure and I've given his thought over the years. I ended up kind of taking a pass on that train of thought. There's no doubt that life is worth more than any weapon, no queston there. However although all of my firearms could and would, if needed be used to defend life and castle there's also the thought that some are really primarily tools and others are fun, extreme expresions of the hobby to me. I would prefer that one of my tools ended up in the evidence room for months or years than one that was bought and built more for enjoyment of the sport.
It's not that I place more value on something than my life but I'd rather loose a Glock 19 than a custom, high end Springfield 1911, or a somewhat rack grade BCM with lot's of additions than a very high end Larue PredatAR.
Averageman
12-02-17, 20:25
I had a Winchester 1300 Defender for a short time. I would double stroke it. It had some type of assisted opening and with the recoil all you needed to do was close the action. It messed me up! For me racking the slide is automatic with the recoil.
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I had the same gun and it did the exact same thing every time.
There is a unlearning curve with that gun.
I had the same gun and it did the exact same thing every time.
There is a unlearning curve with that gun.
I’m glad it wasn’t just me. I sold it to a buddy. He loved it.
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Clint's example is a reasonable one. Someone is coming at you across the bedroom with a knife and you have time for one well placed shot.
How much time is that?
It's really time to place one shot well from an AR, but not enough time to pull the trigger a second time?
How much time is that?
It's really time to place one shot well from an AR, but not enough time to pull the trigger a second time?
Yup for sure, if you've got time for one well placed shot, with anything, many more not so well placed shots will follow immediately...........till there is no longe a threat.
There was a forest some of you may have missed while looking at trees.
I'm just saying Juries are fickle creatures. You may well be willing to ride or die with a fancy rig but can you convince 12 people you don't know that you had no ill intent?
All it takes is one soccer mom or church organist to say "That wasn't very fair. He had a machine gun and a silencer and them boys just had a pistol"
Yes, people do think that way.
But, you gotta do you.
Per Win 1300s, I have one and it does the same thing. But I love Winchester so I over look it. The old girl is more just to have now than anything.
If someone knows I have a gun and is willing to rush me with a knife then I am assuming the worst. Really 00 Buckshot COM can make a real mess from across the room. I didnt take the shot but saw it go down. It was disgusting. It was like dude got hit with a burst of SMG fire all dead center.
Hitting a dude with a Brenneke (which I have not seen and do not want to), would be almost like hitting a guy with a Kentucky rifle.
I saw a suicide with #4 buckshot and it was also pretty gruesome. Like I wanna believe I am not squeamish but its horrible.
I wont say a shotgun is ideal but for what it does, it does it well. Too well sometimes.
You know what, I have nothing more to add here. I said my piece.
You guys with the 1300 Winchesters, they wont 'auto open' if you are holding forward pressure on the forearm.
Re: the one shot thing.
This is from DocGKR: From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile.
It is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use.
Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint.
Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/home-defense-carbine-vs-shotgun-vs-pistol.151/
My views differ. Misses are on the shooter and should not be tolerated. It is a RARE occurrence to have an uninvolved third party injured by a round that has over-penetrated. Misses, yes. Over-penetration, no.
How much time is that?
It's really time to place one shot well from an AR, but not enough time to pull the trigger a second time?
It’s easy to play what if. We could do it all night but it’s not helpful. The point is one load of 12 GA 00 Buck Shot would be many times more effective than any handgun round or any 5.56 round.
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You guys with the 1300 Winchesters, they wont 'auto open' if you are holding forward pressure on the forearm.
I’m sure they’re great guns it just didn’t work well for me! Kinda like that BCM MOD 3 I just put on my new AR. I’m pretty sure it’s going down the road but I’m going to try it at the range first. The BCM grip might be the better more natural angle but it’s not what I’m used to. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/0e62c538769761efe2aa92d08cd279b0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/cb804e27d81027eb6aabbf579bd72637.jpg
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I’m sure they’re great guns it just didn’t work well for me! Kinda like that BCM MOD 3 I just put on my AR. I’m pretty sure it’s going down the road but I’m going to try it at the range first. The BCM grip might be the better more natural angle but it’s not what I’m used to.
If you are shooting a more traditional bladed stance, with elbow away from side it may not feel 'right.' Likewise I notice my Type 23 isn't as comfy as the old A2 grip in the prone, but an A2 isn't very good with my wrist problems. I'm GTG if I can get my elbow tucked in.
A person's take on grips is personal. I love the Type 23 Grip by B5 or Umbrella Corp. Didn't much care for the Magpul K@, they aren't that different: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?136423-Magpul-MOE-K2/page15
If you are shooting a more traditional bladed stance, with elbow away from side it may not feel 'right.' Likewise I notice my Type 23 isn't as comfy as the old A2 grip in the prone, but an A2 isn't very good with my wrist problems. I'm GTG if I can get my elbow tucked in.
A person's take on grips is personal. I love the Type 23 Grip by B5 or Umbrella Corp. Didn't much care for the Magpul K@, they aren't that different: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?136423-Magpul-MOE-K2/page15
I’ll try the elbow tucked in.
I only got two shots in two shots today after cutting up some firewood. I didn’t notice the grip at all. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171203/7a9836b18fd2452b1382688e4dd83d17.jpg
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Dist. Expert 26
12-02-17, 23:28
I keep my AR by my bed not because it's the ideal HD weapon (my ears ring 24/7 due to 5.56 in a house with no ear pro), but because every aspect of operating it is muscle memory. I've fired thousands more rounds through an M16/AR15 than I have any other weapon I own.
If I wake up to the dogs barking and someone trying to enter my home I estimate I have about 15 seconds before they would be between me and my son, and I cannot allow that to happen. Thus, I have my rifle.
That's it. I'm not concerned about a fire team kicking my door in wearing hard plates. A shotgun or pistol would likely be more effective, but I have more trust in my abilities with an AR.
I really should build a cheaper rifle for the purpose though. I'd be super bummed if my current setup was in an evidence locker for any amount of time.
Misses are on the shooter and should not be tolerated. It is a RARE occurrence to have an uninvolved third party injured by a round that has over-penetrated. Misses, yes. Over-penetration, no.
This is why I prefer the AR. I shoot it better than a handgun or shotgun.
I’ll try the elbow tucked in.
I like the more vertical grips myself and I find they work even better when I shorten the stock.
I'll also second keeping the elbows tucked in.
I have a fair number of guns. I don't have kids or little crumb snatchers or other strange people running around. There are usually a couple of guns nearby regardless of where I am located.
A rifle with a light and loaded 30 round magazine is there 99.% of the time. I'll take anyone of my 11.5"-16" guns for all around general purpose for anything I need to accomplish.
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 10:38
Lots of good discussion in this thread. My take is that for defending your castle, 12 gauge shotgun wins hands down over all others. My weapon of choice would be an 18.5" Mossy 590 A1. SBRs and PDWs are cool, but I'm willing to bet most of us aren't on any high profile security details where those types of weapons are necessitated.
Lots of good discussion in this thread. My take is that for defending your castle, 12 gauge shotgun wins hands down over all others. My weapon of choice would be an 18.5" Mossy 590 A1. SBRs and PDWs are cool, but I'm willing to bet most of us aren't on any high profile security details where those types of weapons are necessitated.
I am confused by this.
You say that, for you, the shotgun wins hands down, but then you imply that an SBR is actually a superior tool for the job.
Why do you believe an SBR or PDW would be a fitting tool for a high profile security detail, but not for home defense? Why would a 12 gauge pump gun not be (as) fitting for a high profile security detail?
Its an autoloader world. I have sentimentality for the pump but, it is indeed an autoloader world.
Again the learning curve on combat shotgunnery is pretty steep.
Lessay I lived somewhere that banned pistols and shotguns but somehow AR15s were A-Okay.
6920 is more than enough gun. You dont deal with NFA and it is super common.
Keep in mind if you have to shoot someone, they are taking your gun for evidentiary purposes and depending on how it goes they will keep your gun for potentially years.
Any doodads like a light can be affixed with a MOE and a flattop optic like whatever RDS. Keep peltors nearby. I dont mind whatever investigating agency having my easily replaced 900 dollar 6920. But Mk. 18 Clones and Suppressors are just gonna be what I call Jury Bait.
Massad Ayoob (love him or hate him) didnt mind documenting unique Self Defense cases. Back in the 80s, an HK Employee(Yes, THAT HK) was being chased by Meth head bikers. He pulls into the HK parking lot and engages with both a VP70 and an AC556 that he was entrusted for research. The VP70 doesnt faze them and the return fire. He magdumps and nails like two of them with 5.56 from the Ruger. Fairfax County DA made SUCH A PRODUCTION over the fact that it was a full auto rifle while glossing over the fact he was being chased by armed meth head bikers.
This was before iPhones.
The guy got found Not Guilty but by a frog's hair.
So going up against 12 dumbasses who think life is like NCIS or SVU and know nothing of NFA; having a kitted out CAG clone can easily work against you. Especially if you have NODs.
They will ask "Gee why didnt you run away? Why did you ambush them? Why didnt you give a warning?"
I have seen enough Grand Juries and know they ask some pretty stupid questions. Well.....not "stupid" but they just don't know all this stuff. Joe and Susie Sixpack dont read up on NFA law.
Best advice I ever got from a Salt is "You want to make it so you only did what you had to do."
Putting in cute things like a binary trigger or a SD3G can work against you same as the punisher skull lower or the "Surprise Faggot" or "Eat Shit" dust cover.
But something reasonable you can buy at Walmart or whatever will go a long way.
If I had to use a rifle, I'd bunker in place and let them come to me, figure 8, and problem solve. Because if I cant escape they are leaving me no choice.
There are more optics at play than legos with guns.
If you ever get indicted, you'll find out how cool the jury really thinks your guns are.
Because they will be paraded around while an alcoholic DA makes you out to be some Alt Right White Nationalist waiting to get his Rambo on. He only cares about stats. If you get True Billed, he will offer you to plead to manslaughter and/or agg assault. He'll "do you a favor" and drop discharging in city limits. Because aside from your lawyer, you got court costs.
Thats another thing. Have two lawyers in your phone. Doesnt matter who. At least two with an after hours answering service.
That is more practical preparation than your NSWC Mk. 18 clone.
Not trying to be snarky or effusive but, a gun is 1% of you 99% self defense problems.
Your home is real estate and the rule of real estate is "location, location, location". That's why my home is located in a jurisdiction that fully believes in castle doctrine and stand your ground. Places like Fairfax Co. VA are on my list of "Do Not Want!" locations. I'd simply never live somewhere that didn't value my life and freedom. The local DA isn't going to have any chance to portray me as some kind of Rambo wannabe because the elements of the law mean he isn't going to have a case.
We have exactly one douchebag DA and I live a half mile outside his jurisdiction. So if I wanted to use a suppressed MG for pest control, no biggie. I don't use my MG because I wouldn't want it sitting in a property room, but a 2K sbr with a can wouldn't bother me in the least. I have plenty to choose from and I'm not emotionally invested or sentimental about guns, so no biggie.
Now if you live in a communist jurisdiction, my position would be completely different. I'm not fortunate or lucky to live in a favorable jurisdiction, because where I live and why I live there is completely planned. :)
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 11:57
I am confused by this.
You say that, for you, the shotgun wins hands down, but then you imply that an SBR is actually a superior tool for the job.
Why do you believe an SBR or PDW would be a fitting tool for a high profile security detail, but not for home defense? Why would a 12 gauge pump gun not be (as) fitting for a high profile security detail?
Your response has me a bit confused. I never said a PDW would be superior for home defense. 12 gauge buck shot leaves very large wounds in soft tissue, and is very cheap to buy. Put your front bead on the intruder and it's game over for them.
We really are turning this into a 12 ga vs ar for hd thread?
This has been hashed out before. SMEs have weighed in.
In real life you are not limited to 1 shot, and you are not guaranteed an unarmed target.
Shotguns are very effective at close range, so is a semi 556 with good ammo.
Being that the OP included truck guns out to 300yds that rules out shotguns.
Put your front sight post/red dot on the intruder and it's game over for them.
I edited your post- it doesn’t really matter much what you have, you need to aim, and you need an effective hit. Shotguns are great, but they are not magical.
vicious_cb
12-03-17, 13:14
I think about it in terms of efficiency. It takes me maybe 3x to 5x the amount of 9mm ammo to be equally as fast and accurate as I am with an AR depending on distance. Now throw in an ammo budget and time constraints and the preference becomes more clear.
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 13:24
We really are turning this into a 12 ga vs ar for hd thread?
This has been hashed out before. SMEs have weighed in.
In real life you are not limited to 1 shot, and you are not guaranteed an unarmed target.
Shotguns are very effective at close range, so is a semi 556 with good ammo.
I edited your post- it doesn’t really matter much what you have, you need to aim, and you need an effective hit. Shotguns are great, but they are not magical.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Inside the house I pick 12 gauge buckshot, outside the house I would pick a rifle or carbine every time over a PDW/SBR.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Inside the house I pick 12 gauge buckshot, outside the house I would pick a rifle or carbine every time over a PDW/SBR.
This is regular private citizen me talking, but I don't envision needing to do something a 'carbine' can do that a short barrel AR cannot do just as well. The SBR can fit a suppressor without getting obtrusively long, though...
However, I do forget that the thread title is about a short barrel AR in a variety of situations, including truck gun, bugout, etc (get home perhaps). If things are so bad that I'm into bugout or get-home territory and I'm carrying let alone using a shoulder fired/long gun, shit has gone way off the deep end and longer engagements outdoors may be called for (because at that point, who TF knows what's going to be happening as this is uncharted territory over here)...I might just want a 16" barrel 'carbine' with variable power scope (or a 20" rifle even?) vs a dot sighted short barrel with suppressor. But even then, is having one vs the other really going to make a (predictable ahead of time) difference?
Splitting hairs. So long as the user has the right mindset, an adequate skillset with the firearm at hand, and a reasonable firearm/ammo choice (no #8 birdshot in the smoothbore or frangible/glaser type in the AR etc, firearm is reliable, you know the drill), there are a lot of reasonable options...easily encompassing a 12 gauge pump, carbine, SBR, etc. It hasn't been stated explicitly just now, but it seems due...a determined and skilled individual with a single shot shotgun is more dangerous than an untrained inexperience boob with the best tacticool SBR AR or Benelli M2 etc you can build. I mean, we all know that, but it helps to say it 'out loud', right?
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 14:35
This is regular private citizen me talking, but I don't envision needing to do something a 'carbine' can do that a short barrel AR cannot do just as well. The SBR can fit a suppressor without getting obtrusively long, though...
However, I do forget that the thread title is about a short barrel AR in a variety of situations, including truck gun, bugout, etc (get home perhaps). If things are so bad that I'm into bugout or get-home territory and I'm carrying let alone using a shoulder fired/long gun, shit has gone way off the deep end and longer engagements outdoors may be called for (because at that point, who TF knows what's going to be happening as this is uncharted territory over here)...I might just want a 16" barrel 'carbine' with variable power scope (or a 20" rifle even?) vs a dot sighted short barrel with suppressor. But even then, is having one vs the other really going to make a (predictable ahead of time) difference?
Splitting hairs. So long as the user has the right mindset, an adequate skillset with the firearm at hand, and a reasonable firearm/ammo choice (no #8 birdshot in the smoothbore or frangible/glaser type in the AR etc, firearm is reliable, you know the drill), there are a lot of reasonable options...easily encompassing a 12 gauge pump, carbine, SBR, etc. It hasn't been stated explicitly just now, but it seems due...a determined and skilled individual with a single shot shotgun is more dangerous than an untrained inexperience boob with the best tacticool SBR AR or Benelli M2 etc you can build. I mean, we all know that, but it helps to say it 'out loud', right?
You will find no disagreement from me with most of what you just said there. Skillset/mindset make the largest difference regardless of chosen platform.
vicious_cb
12-03-17, 15:36
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Inside the house I pick 12 gauge buckshot, outside the house I would pick a rifle or carbine every time over a PDW/SBR.
But can you say you are as equally skilled with a shotgun vs pistol or AR? Especially when you are dealing with a more complicated manual of arms under stress and low capacity compared to the alternatives?
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Inside the house I pick 12 gauge buckshot, outside the house I would pick a rifle or carbine every time over a PDW/SBR.
The advantages of an AR carbine or shorty over a shotgun are numerous. The advantages of a shotgun over an AR is one- Breaching. The advantage of a shotgun to breach is far out weighed by the many advantages of an AR, indoors and out.
If this is going to go down the shotgun v. AR rabbit hole it's done. The pros and cons of each have been discussed NUMEROUS times. Additionally the OP specifically mentioned a variety of scenarios.
If this is going to go down the shotgun v. AR rabbit hole it's done. The pros and cons of each have been discussed NUMEROUS times. Additionally the OP specifically mentioned a variety of scenarios.
I don't think so. I believe its just real talk for the average person for HD. Really this should probably be in training and tactics.
I also think the actual training aspect is being glossed over because fighting from a defensive posture in a building can be harrowing.
I think people are putting too much on SBRs.
They seem like a good idea but not ideal.
Really a 6920 or a 6720 with a moe, stubby vfg, a light, and whatever RDS checks a lot of boxes if you wanted to restrict yourself to a rifle. A
A cheeky part of me would suggest an AUG A3 as it is short, non NFA, and has rails. ;)
16" barrel is only 4.5 inches shorter than an SBR with no NFA crap. If you'll pardon my frankness that's literally a dick's difference.
If I were to put my own spin on it and this was gonna be my main house gun; I'd probably plunk a Redi-Mag on it and top em off with 64gr Power Point.
DE. 26 did bring up a good point. He is a Marine and knows an AR in and out and backwards and upside down so it would be what he is most comfortable with becsuse he is most competent with it.
People either overthink carbines or don't think them through at all.
FWIW Malcolm X had guys literally gunning for him and kept an M1 Carbine with two 30 rounders taped together so...
It isn't hard. I will say this thread did generate some good back and forth vs options, which is what you want
I don't think so. I believe its just real talk for the average person for HD. Really this should probably be in training and tactics.
I also think the actual training aspect is being glossed over because fighting from a defensive posture in a building can be harrowing.
I think people are putting too much on SBRs.
They seem like a good idea but not ideal.
Really a 6920 or a 6720 with a moe, stubby vfg, a light, and whatever RDS checks a lot of boxes if you wanted to restrict yourself to a rifle. A
A cheeky part of me would suggest an AUG A3 as it is short, non NFA, and has rails. ;)
16" barrel is only 4.5 inches shorter than an SBR with no NFA crap. If you'll pardon my frankness that's literally a dick's difference.
If I were to put my own spin on it and this was gonna be my main house gun; I'd probably plunk a Redi-Mag on it and top em off with 64gr Power Point.
DE. 26 did bring up a good point. He is a Marine and knows an AR in and out and backwards and upside down so it would be what he is most comfortable with becsuse he is most competent with it.
People either overthink carbines or don't think them through at all.
FWIW Malcolm X had guys literally gunning for him and kept an M1 Carbine with two 30 rounders taped together so...
What seems to be getting glossed over is how we are talking amongst a group that, if one of us has a suppressed short barrel AR type rifle, likely have at least one standard 16" non-NFA they can do everything else with, such as interstate travel without a federal permission slip.
160+ db incredibly loud, indoors or outdoors (particularly next to a wall, over concrete, under a canopy or overpass, etc) or heaven forbid, touching a shotgun/rifle caliber carbine off from inside your car in a bugout/get home scenario as listed in OP title...has to be a lot of points awarded to the suppressed short barrel option here
I mean, isn't the ability to add a meaningful suppressor without a ridiculous end result the main reason most of us or those like us would do a short barrel AR?
I like my AR's most are 5.56, I have a .22, 9mm and a 300 AAC. If I had to choose one it would be my 11.5" 5.56 BCM with A5 and MRO RDS. I have a can for the SBR's. I don't see the point in putting a can on the 16" gun. I have a CZ EVO and a 9mm AR that takes Glock mags. I don't have enough time with either to use them for self defense.
A close second would be my 16" BCM Middy.
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You can buy whatever you want. I'm half deaf anyway.
I do know for a fact perps have shit themselves from a longarm going off indoors.
It sounds literally like God Himself has your name, number, and ass. And God is pissed.
But caveat, I'm the guy who whines about muh tinnitus but still gets floor tickets to metal concerts (albeit I wear plugs).
So YMMV
You can buy whatever you want. I'm half deaf anyway.
I do know for a fact perps have shit themselves from a longarm going off indoors.
It sounds literally like God Himself has your name, number, and ass. And God is pissed.
But caveat, I'm the guy who whines about muh tinnitus but still gets floor tickets to metal concerts (albeit I wear plugs).
So YMMV
Yeah worrying about hearing is assinine in a self defense situation unless you're in the military or on a SWAT team.
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Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 19:46
But can you say you are as equally skilled with a shotgun vs pistol or AR? Especially when you are dealing with a more complicated manual of arms under stress and low capacity compared to the alternatives?
It all comes down to training. I have enough trigger time behind a pump action to think I can hold my own. I think most home break-ins are small time crooks/meth addicts, not your local SWAT team. I doubt I'll need to expend multiple 30 round magazines in most HD scenarios.
Yeah worrying about hearing is assinine in a self defense situation unless you're in the military or on a SWAT team.
lol what
165 db or so indoors (or less than that) not to mention possible muzzle flash certainly has the potential to negatively influence your ability to continue functioning, hear who is doing what where, hear your spouse/other people in the house, communicate to dispatch, communicate to responding LE, or worse.
Why would a SWAT member worry about it but a private citizen acting in self defense not worry about it? Is the SWAT guy not trained enough to handle it while the regular private citizen is, or what? What's the logic here? Why would you not take steps ahead of time to mitigate the impact of muzzle report/blast/flash? Besides the expense or the effort, that is. I understand not everybody is willing to pay and wait for a suppressor, and not everybody lives in a jurisdiction where they are even allowed. But asinine to make prior arrangements to give you one more advantage? What?
It all comes down to training. I have enough trigger time behind a pump action to think I can hold my own. I think most home break-ins are small time crooks/meth addicts, not your local SWAT team. I doubt I'll need to expend multiple 30 round magazines in most HD scenarios.
Well no probably not, the ability to hold 20-30 rounds in one magazine easily is one of the AR's advantages.
gunnerblue
12-03-17, 19:52
I prefer SBR’s because i very strongly prefer to use a suppressor. I also hate ruining the balance and handling of a well-thought out 16”-ish carbine by a can off of the end. A 11.5-12.5” carbine with suppressor, light and optic is an incredibly versatile and effective combination for a variety of roles provided appropriate training. Most of my own rifles are set up this way. My work rifle is a 14.5” M4 with SF M600 and USO SR-4C. Unfortunately not suppressed due to policy but overall the same utility and handiness as described above. I have many years experience with this set-up and am glad to have it as a “go-to.”
Rambling done
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 19:54
Well no probably not, the ability to hold 20-30 rounds in one magazine easily is one of the AR's advantages.
This is true, but if I needed that kind of fire power to defend my house I would move to a different neighborhood.
This is true, but if I needed that kind of fire power to defend my house I would move to a different neighborhood.
"If I needed a 12 gauge with buckshot to defend my house I would move to a different neighborhood"
"If I needed to carry a gun on my person I would move to a different city"
"If I needed a gun for home defense I would move to a different neighborhood"
I guess everybody has their own limit for how effective a tool they are willing to have.
This reads^ like another post implying that you recognize the AR option is superior, but simply think it is "too effective", or something.
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 20:40
"If I needed a 12 gauge with buckshot to defend my house I would move to a different neighborhood"
"If I needed to carry a gun on my person I would move to a different city"
"If I needed a gun for home defense I would move to a different neighborhood"
I guess everybody has their own limit for how effective a tool they are willing to have.
This reads^ like another post implying that you recognize the AR option is superior, but simply think it is "too effective", or something.
Whoa did I touch a nerve there? Bottom line most any scenarios you could plug a PDW/SBR into, there are other choices that perform multiple roles much better.
CQB - Carbine
Home Defense - Shotgun, and if you're hell bent on having 30 round mags for this purpose I say Carbine
Truck gun - Carbine
Bug out gun - Carbine
DMR - Rifle
VIP protection/security detail - PDW if concealability is a priority, if not Carbine.
Whoa did I touch a nerve there? Bottom line most any scenarios you could plug a PDW/SBR into, there are other choices that perform multiple roles much better.
So what is much better at home defense than a suppressed SBR AR, and why?
I'm still trying to get you to explain your logic beyond the obvious and repeated implication that a short AR is just too darn effective and you don't need all that in your safe neighborhood
Hammer_Man
12-03-17, 21:15
So what is much better at home defense than a suppressed SBR AR, and why?
I'm still trying to get you to explain your logic beyond the obvious and repeated implication that a short AR is just too darn effective and you don't need all that in your safe neighborhood
My logic is thus: Short barrel ARs are limited in their performance outside of the house clearing fantasy role everybody puts them in. There is a reason front line troops carry M4s and M16s, not MK18s. I've done plenty of house clearing exercises with 20" A2s to know you don't need a MK18 for room clearing. As I have stated repeatedly to you, a well set up carbine can perform any role a shorter gun can, and then go beyond that. If you want to spend $200 in taxes to purchase the ultimate tacticool fanboy gun go ahead, it's a free country which I have served to make that possible for you.
Please meet behind the monkey bars tomorrow during recess to settle this once and for all fellas.
:p
gunnerblue
12-03-17, 21:22
My logic is thus: Short barrel ARs are limited in their performance outside of the house clearing fantasy role everybody puts them in. There is a reason front line troops carry M4s and M16s, not MK18s. I've done plenty of house clearing exercises with 20" A2s to know you don't need a MK18 for room clearing. As I have stated repeatedly to you, a well set up carbine can perform any role a shorter gun can, and then go beyond that. If you want to spend $200 in taxes to purchase the ultimate tacticool fanboy gun go ahead, it's a free country which I have served to make that possible for you.
If I remember correctly, the 14.5” barrel on the M4 was selected due to it being the shortest barrel capable of utilizing the bayonet. A shorter barrel would have been preferable. If I am wrong please correct me with sources.
Many SME’s on this forum and others have opined that 12.5” is the best GP length.
So what is much better at home defense than a suppressed SBR AR, and why?
Can I play?
I don't remember if I posted this before, so forgive me if it is a repeat: My immediately available HD weapon is a pistol with light. My readily available HD weapons are two shotguns (870's in 12 and 20, loaded with Brenneke THD slugs) an SBR, and an AR pistol (awaiting stamp) the 5.56 is loaded with 55gr Urban TAP and suppressed; 300 AAC is loaded with Hornady 208gr AMAX. They live in our bedroom.
I chose the 12 ga slug based on MY proficiency with the 870. It is best for the circumstances I would use the shotgun for - no offset, no worry of wad striking hostage. The AR's are for the TEOTWAWKI scenario.
I have plans for HD usage of all weapons, and they have been rehearsed. I'm comfortable. If I had to be a one horse rider, it would be the pistol.
According to Doctors GKR and Fackler the 12ga with buckshot delivers the best one shot stop in the chest.
My logic is thus: Short barrel ARs are limited in their performance outside of the house clearing fantasy role everybody puts them in. There is a reason front line troops carry M4s and M16s, not MK18s. I've done plenty of house clearing exercises with 20" A2s to know you don't need a MK18 for room clearing. As I have stated repeatedly to you, a well set up carbine can perform any role a shorter gun can, and then go beyond that. If you want to spend $200 in taxes to purchase the ultimate tacticool fanboy gun go ahead, it's a free country which I have served to make that possible for you.
A 20" rifle with a suppressor is probably a bit unwieldy in the home or in the BOB scenario listed by OP, compared to a much more compact option.
Can I play?
I don't remember if I posted this before, so forgive me if it is a repeat: My immediately available HD weapon is a pistol with light. My readily available HD weapons are two shotguns (870's in 12 and 20, loaded with Brenneke THD slugs) an SBR, and an AR pistol (awaiting stamp) the 5.56 is loaded with 55gr Urban TAP and suppressed; 300 AAC is loaded with Hornady 208gr AMAX. They live in our bedroom.
I chose the 12 ga slug based on MY proficiency with the 870. It is best for the circumstances I would use the shotgun for - no offset, no worry of wad striking hostage. The AR's are for the TEOTWAWKI scenario.
I have plans for HD usage of all weapons, and they have been rehearsed. I'm comfortable. If I had to be a one horse rider, it would be the pistol.
According to Doctors GKR and Fackler the 12ga with buckshot delivers the best one shot stop in the chest.
A lot of us probably cannot justify the extreme barrier (typical modern home construction) penetration of a 12 gauge slug. If that isn't a liability for you and you are more proficient with your pump shotgun than your AR, I don't think anybody on the other end of the muzzle will argue with you about it.
Good thing we aren't arbitrarily limited to one shot, too. :)
A 20" rifle with a suppressor is probably a bit unwieldy in the home or in the BOB scenario listed by OP, compared to a much more compact option.
A lot of us probably cannot justify the extreme barrier (typical modern home construction) penetration of a 12 gauge slug. If that isn't a liability for you and you are more proficient with your pump shotgun than your AR, I don't think anybody on the other end of the muzzle will argue with you about it.
Good thing we aren't arbitrarily limited to one shot, too. :)
Shooter owns misses, not the weapon or the projectile. If you cant hit, you got, got, got no business shooting.
Read the data on the THD: http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/
I've read a couple of texts on wound ballistics, in one of those texts it was pointed out that the folks involved in writing the texts had never seen a case of wounding to a third party by an over penetrating slug.
The THD's performance and low velocity makes over penetration very unlikely.
Usmcvet knows what hes talking about.
Depending on your job in military or police you could be doing stuff indoors that is detrimental to your ear health on a daily if not weekly basis. Your ears don't "get used" to squat. That's hearing loss.
I'd wager a LOT of guys on m4c got some kind of hearing loss or tinnitus or inner ear problems. Not always from shooting. Flashbangs are LOUD.
But for a regular guy, he may only fire his weapon in anger indoors once in life (if ever).
I mean....I guess my main thesis is you CAN get all this nicky neat ricky ranger gun crap.
But for me if I was gonna use an AR for the house, I'd just use a 6920 and call it good because I doubt I would have to use it.
You could get by on an AR pistol too but I just prefer an honest carbine, dont feel like getting NFA hemmed up in court and just want an easy button.
If I was poor(er), I'd get a 590 and 00Buck if I couldnt afford a pistol or a rifle.
Or I'd save for a 6920 or if I had to cheap out just a base AR that will cycle at least a few mags.
Any gun better than no gun.
I just know a pistol is handier. In all things a trade off. No such thing as a Swiss army gun.
If AKs were $200 again, I'd say just get one of those. And I'm not an AK guy.
The thing is, there are a lot of answers to the OPs question and they aren't all wrong. A lot are right. a shotgun shell is a shotgun shell and a 5.56 is a 5.56.
And a dead perp is a dead perp.
Theoretically you could use a Lahti 25MM and if it keeps you from dying in a home invasion then it was the right answer.
I just say 6920 because its the easy button. I'm at a point where I just don't care to put in the effort and money into some gun I wont have time to shoot while I bang away with some old worn deal that still rings steel
Usmcvet knows what hes talking about.
Depending on your job in military or police you could be doing stuff indoors that is detrimental to your ear health on a daily if not weekly basis. Your ears don't "get used" to squat. That's hearing loss.
I'd wager a LOT of guys on m4c got some kind of hearing loss or tinnitus or inner ear problems. Not always from shooting. Flashbangs are LOUD.
But for a regular guy, he may only fire his weapon in anger indoors once in life (if ever).
I mean....I guess my main thesis is you CAN get all this nicky neat ricky ranger gun crap.
But for me if I was gonna use an AR for the house, I'd just use a 6920 and call it good because I doubt I would have to use it.
You could get by on an AR pistol too but I just prefer an honest carbine, dont feel like getting NFA hemmed up in court and just want an easy button.
If I was poor(er), I'd get a 590 and 00Buck if I couldnt afford a pistol or a rifle.
Or I'd save for a 6920 or if I had to cheap out just a base AR that will cycle at least a few mags.
Any gun better than no gun.
I just know a pistol is handier. In all things a trade off. No such thing as a Swiss army gun.
If AKs were $200 again, I'd say just get one of those. And I'm not an AK guy.
The thing is, there are a lot of answers to the OPs question and they aren't all wrong. A lot are right. a shotgun shell is a shotgun shell and a 5.56 is a 5.56.
And a dead perp is a dead perp.
Theoretically you could use a Lahti 25MM and if it keeps you from dying in a home invasion then it was the right answer.
I just say 6920 because its the easy button. I'm at a point where I just don't care to put in the effort and money into some gun I wont have time to shoot while I bang away with some old worn deal that still rings steel
Lots of truth here and you're not joking on the hearing loss. I've fired lots of rounds without earpro, especially hunting as a kid. Worst I've fired was a 7mm Mag, but it didn't hold a candle to the time I was on AD watch and they didn't pull me before gunnery practice with the 5" naval gun. Ten rounds of that definitely caused a lot of jearing loss.
These days I wear earpro even if I'm just running a mower or grass trimmer. I can't afford to lose any more. I've considered keeping my Sordin's next to the bed, but I'm concerned about taking time and focus off arming myself and orienting towards the threat. So the thought being a SBR with a short can would be more effective than a pistol, shorter overall than an 18" riot gun, hold more ammo than both combined and be less detrimental to your hearing both during the event and long term.
If that's not worth a tax stamp or two, I'm not sure what is.
...I'm at a point where I just don't care to put in the effort and money into some gun I wont have time to shoot while I bang away with some old worn deal that still rings steel
Are you saying you wouldn't be out shooting the rifle used for house protection?
My comment didn't really require approval or a nod. I simply stated that "if this is going down the AR v. SG rabbit hole, it's over". We have had NUMEROUS discussions about SD/HD and what everyone thinks is the best option and why.
One needs only use the search feature.
I don't think so. I believe its just real talk for the average person for HD. Really this should probably be in training and tactics.
I also think the actual training aspect is being glossed over because fighting from a defensive posture in a building can be harrowing.
I think people are putting too much on SBRs.
They seem like a good idea but not ideal.
Really a 6920 or a 6720 with a moe, stubby vfg, a light, and whatever RDS checks a lot of boxes if you wanted to restrict yourself to a rifle. A
A cheeky part of me would suggest an AUG A3 as it is short, non NFA, and has rails. ;)
16" barrel is only 4.5 inches shorter than an SBR with no NFA crap. If you'll pardon my frankness that's literally a dick's difference.
If I were to put my own spin on it and this was gonna be my main house gun; I'd probably plunk a Redi-Mag on it and top em off with 64gr Power Point.
DE. 26 did bring up a good point. He is a Marine and knows an AR in and out and backwards and upside down so it would be what he is most comfortable with becsuse he is most competent with it.
People either overthink carbines or don't think them through at all.
FWIW Malcolm X had guys literally gunning for him and kept an M1 Carbine with two 30 rounders taped together so...
It isn't hard. I will say this thread did generate some good back and forth vs options, which is what you want
Are you saying you wouldn't be out shooting the rifle used for house protection?
Probably not as I carry other stuff. For some of my personal guns, I have to plan out months in advance to get to enjoy them.
A sad irony.
Also....I feel this hasnt been addressed but...
Lessay you get the absolutely quietest can ever made and the optimal ammo for said can.
If the perps return fire it's still going to be loud indoors. Even if they do a sideways Leroy banging away as they try to get out the door; you're still going to be exposed to noise. Esp. if one decided to bring a shotgun.
26 inf touched on something that I feel has been overlooked but is very true.
There's how we think our enemy will fight and there's reality. Even if you totally retake initiative, there will still be panic and sympathetic fire. Indoors. Loud.
I mean, I'm not being critical but people get an AEM5 or some super quiet suppressor and shoot it outdoors with electronic earpro and think "Gee this is quiet. Rather pleasant even."
But if a buncha knuckleheads panic and do a mad minute in your hallway, it's still going to be loud.
I'm not saying it has never happened in the world but suppressor vs suppressor fights are, I would reckon, pretty rare.
I suppose that's why I dont really care for suppressors as a big draw. Your gun might be no louder than a mousefart but their guns will still be at full volume.
They arent just gonna stand still and take it.
BTDT there are folks who damn sure dont mind shooting at the police crowd or no crowd.
That's just the brass tacks.
The guys willing to bust in your house or shoot up a mall or whatever are not as worried about ear pro as anybody on this board.
They dont sit around doing sandtables, writing OPLANS, comparing the optimal equipment and doing function checks of their gear.
To paraphrase Eddie Griffin it is like this:
"So we gon hit this goofy mofo's house?"
"yeah"
"A'ight then I got my glock 40."
"I got a .45 and a spare clip"
"Yo I brung muh 12 gauge"
"And I got my snub trey eight and this baby AK with a banana clip"
"Cool. We gon' go in through the back door and rush his ass. If he moves, shoot. Crazy mofo got guns"
That's more or less the thought they put in it as they want money, guns, jewelry, or fenceables.
I'm just saying. This ain't wargaming NATO vs USSR here with peer to peer forces. It's a buncha shitsticks who dont care about other people breaking in your house or shooting up your block.
Press Check
12-04-17, 01:54
I'd rather be alive with 50% hearing loss than dead with perfect hearing.
Probably not as I carry other stuff. For some of my personal guns, I have to plan out months in advance to get to enjoy them.
A sad irony.
Sad, indeed. The AR that sits next to my bed is the one I shoot the most. I even take it out to the desert in search of jackrabbits.
Lessay you get the absolutely quietest can ever made and the optimal ammo for said can.
If the perps return fire it's still going to be loud indoors. Even if they do a sideways Leroy banging away as they try to get out the door; you're still going to be exposed to noise.
Just because the badguys are making a racket, doesn't mean I have to!
In all seriousness, that's ok. Having a silencer on my weapon is one less source of noise and concussion. It ain't perfect, but it's better than totally sucks. I paid good money to have a silencer. Might as well put it to good use.
Esp. if one decided to bring a shotgun.
Off topic, but I'd like to see the actual numbers on this. Shotguns have much less pressure exiting the muzzle than even handguns. That should mean lower decibels.
Having experienced actual gun fire in enclosed spaces (specifically rifle, handgun and a shotgun) the shotgun did not seem as loud as the rifle.
Sad, indeed. The AR that sits next to my bed is the one I shoot the most. I even take it out to the desert in search of jackrabbits.
Just because the badguys are making a racket, doesn't mean I have to!
In all seriousness, that's ok. Having a silencer on my weapon is one less source of noise and concussion. It ain't perfect, but it's better than totally sucks. I paid good money to have a silencer. Might as well put it to good use.
Off topic, but I'd like to see the actual numbers on this. Shotguns have much less pressure exiting the muzzle than even handguns. That should mean lower decibels.
I'd rather be alive with 50% hearing loss than dead with perfect hearing.
Fortunately that is in no way the decision we are facing
Sad, indeed. The AR that sits next to my bed is the one I shoot the most. I even take it out to the desert in search of jackrabbits.
Just because the badguys are making a racket, doesn't mean I have to!
In all seriousness, that's ok. Having a silencer on my weapon is one less source of noise and concussion. It ain't perfect, but it's better than totally sucks. I paid good money to have a silencer. Might as well put it to good use.
Off topic, but I'd like to see the actual numbers on this. Shotguns have much less pressure exiting the muzzle than even handguns. That should mean lower decibels.
That's how I see it. Even accounting for the possibility of your foes being armed (and almost surely unsuppressed), they probably aren't going to have their muzzle 1-2 feet from your ear (as yours will be), they may not even be in the same room, or they may not even be in the same building if this is one of the OP scenarios other than HD, or if they are in the process of breaking through the door, etc. I'd take a pistol being fired from the other end of the hallway/living room/basement, or from the other side of a parked/disabled car, over a rifle especially a short rifle with its muzzle 1-2 feet from my ears. The foes may not even be armed with a firearm.
I a pretty sure that of the options being considered, the rifle will indeed sound the loudest and be the hardest on the ear, probably one reason why so many people put suppressors on them...they are fricken loud, but also have umpteen advantages going for them so we want to pick/use them anyway. From a practical and in-use standpoint, you can basically have your cake and eat it too with a suppressed AR, you don't really lose any of the great AR weapon type advantages...same or lesser length, everything else basically the same except it's much less loud. Maybe you pick your ammo a little more carefully for defensive roles?
I'd rather be alive with 50% hearing loss than dead with perfect hearing.
False binary. What if I told you you could have your cake and eat it, too? Answer C is only two stamps away.
In reference to shotguns being less loud due to muzzle pressure, I have experienced gunfire indoors sans earpro twice. Once with a pistol, once with a shotgun. With the pistol, once the situation was under control, I briefly wondered if I was completely deaf. I remember it being like someone hit mute on the world. The first shot was very painful. The shotgun, I was able to hear again much more quickly. The pistol muzzle was further from my ears than the shotgun, but in a much more cramped space.
Anecdotes; not really data.
I'm curious as to how many people in this thread have actually shot at, or been shot at, inside of a house that wasn't a controlled shoothouse.
The shotgun rang my bell because I was young, not expecting it, and in a hallway. It didn't like concuss me, but wasn't pleasant.
It's loud, semi-comtrolled chaos.
It wont really matter if you have a suppressor or not.
And its a pucker factor moment for sure.
Trust me, if you've trained, the noise,won't matter until it's all over where the volume gets turned way down, there's a ring, and your ears are hurting.
The biggest thing is be grateful you survived, hopefully minus injury, and despite being outnumbered.
It's your guns. I don't care what you use. It won't be me, and statistically, it won't be you getting stepped on.
I'm just saying life is a lot different.
The gun is 1% of 99% of your defensive needs
Averageman
12-04-17, 08:57
I'm much more likely to have my home invaded by Racoons now than some Thugs, but when that wasn't the case I put much more emphasis on layers of protection I can retreat through rather than a specific firearm.
I would rather buy time in such a case. There is a lot to be said for solid doors, good locks and a dog who's bite is worse than it's bark.
I spent a lot of time TDY and when I did I put four solid locked doors and a Doberman between the entrance to my home and the walk in closet I turned in to a poor man's safe room for my wife.
These crimes are about time, create more time for yourself and you're much less appealing.
I'm much more likely to have my home invaded by Racoons now than some Thugs, but when that wasn't the case I put much more emphasis on layers of protection I can retreat through rather than a specific firearm.
I would rather buy time in such a case. There is a lot to be said for solid doors, good locks and a dog who's bite is worse than it's bark.
I spent a lot of time TDY and when I did I put four solid locked doors and a Doberman between the entrance to my home and the walk in closet I turned in to a poor man's safe room for my wife.
These crimes are about time, create more time for yourself and you're much less appealing.
How did this become and either/or, where you either select a home defense firearm, or you secure your doors and get dogs and an alarm and lights and cameras and whatever else? :confused:
Nobody is in any way talking about leaving their Styrofoam core interior-grade door used as a front door unlocked with no dogs and no alarm and no lights and no cameras while they sleep soundly in the next room all nice and safe because they have a firearm nearby.
I'm curious as to how many people in this thread have actually shot at, or been shot at, inside of a house that wasn't a controlled shoothouse.
The shotgun rang my bell because I was young, not expecting it, and in a hallway. It didn't like concuss me, but wasn't pleasant.
It's loud, semi-comtrolled chaos.
It wont really matter if you have a suppressor or not.
And its a pucker factor moment for sure.
Trust me, if you've trained, the noise,won't matter until it's all over where the volume gets turned way down, there's a ring, and your ears are hurting.
The biggest thing is be grateful you survived, hopefully minus injury, and despite being outnumbered.
It's your guns. I don't care what you use. It won't be me, and statistically, it won't be you getting stepped on.
I'm just saying life is a lot different.
The gun is 1% of 99% of your defensive needs
Okay, so the gun is 1% of our defensive needs...but that is the topic we are currently on, is it not?
I mean, we are in a thread about compact AR's, in the AR general discussion sub forum, of M4 Carbine.net, talking about firearm selection.
Averageman
12-04-17, 10:02
How did this become and either/or, where you either select a home defense firearm, or you secure your doors and get dogs and an alarm and lights and cameras and whatever else? :confused:
Nobody is in any way talking about leaving their Styrofoam core interior-grade door used as a front door unlocked with no dogs and no alarm and no lights and no cameras while they sleep soundly in the next room all nice and safe because they have a firearm nearby.
But outside this small group of people here a lot of people do just that. You're likely to know or even be related to someone who believes that very thing.
Everytime someone brings up "home defense" the first thing they want is a gun. I don't dissuade them from a purchase, but I do make a point of asking them about hardening thier home first.
They don't want good doors, locks, a security system or a dog. They don't want training or a plan.
Realistically they look at a gun as some sort of magic talisman to Ward off evils.
But outside this small group of people here a lot of people do just that. You're likely to know or even be related to someone who believes that very thing.
Everytime someone brings up "home defense" the first thing they want is a gun. I don't dissuade them from a purchase, but I do make a point of asking them about hardening thier home first.
They don't want good doors, locks, a security system or a dog. They don't want training or a plan.
Realistically they look at a gun as some sort of magic talisman to Ward off evils.
Are we talking about "them", or are we talking?
Nobody here is in any way supporting the idea of, or suggesting, or saying that they think, having a gun with no training and no plan and crap door locks and no anything else at all is what it's all about for home defense.
Specifically, the topic was meant to be "Compact AR's (CQB/Home D/Truck/BoB/etc.)"
Why no discussion about 9 MM AR or .300 Blackout firing subs? I would think either of these with 10" plus barrels would be much easier on the ears than 5.56 or shotgun. Also what if primary shooter is incapacitated, will your significant other be able to pick up your weapon of choice and continue the fight? You might be able to effectively employ that 12 gauge but what about your wife or teenager?
Why no discussion about 9 MM AR or .300 Blackout firing subs? I would think either of these with 10" plus barrels would be much easier on the ears than 5.56 or shotgun. Also what if primary shooter is incapacitated, will your significant other be able to pick up your weapon of choice and continue the fight? You might be able to effectively employ that 12 gauge but what about your wife or teenager?
Good question. I think a ~9" barrel suppressed .300 blk AR might just be what I would think of as the best shoulder fired HD firearm I could wield, assuming proper setup and reliability and ammo selection, naturally...I just don't want to deal with the price and availability of 300 vs 5.56, or the added complexity of supplying a different cartridge and keeping the mags separate etc, and don't have time I'm willing/able to put into reloading right now to help with the economy of 300, and I've never owned a 300 blk rifle of my own, so that's why I don't really talk about it. For others I imagine it's because the AR type firearms are still dominated by 5.56 chambered offerings with 300 being a bit uncommon and 9mm even more so
Indeed, my wife would likely be able to employ an AR, but if I went back to my old pre-AR HD gun of Rem 870, not so much. But she'd have a pistol anyway.
Why no discussion about 9 MM AR or .300 Blackout firing subs? I would think either of these with 10" plus barrels would be much easier on the ears than 5.56 or shotgun. Also what if primary shooter is incapacitated, will your significant other be able to pick up your weapon of choice and continue the fight? You might be able to effectively employ that 12 gauge but what about your wife or teenager?
Probably because 9mm runs out of gas in the barrel at about 7.5", so a longer barrel wouldn't benefit you any. Might as well be shooting it out of a handgun. As for subs in .300blk, that's counterintuitive to defense work. Yes they make very expensive subs that expand, but you're not getting the benefit of cavitation in the wound channel, which starts around 1700fps. So again, might as well be shooting a handgun.
Probably the most effective SBR setup would be .300blk supers with light, fast bullets like the 110gr Barnes TTSX in a 8-9" barrel, with a short, light can like the Sandman-K, which is only 5.4" long. A pinned and welded 14.5" barrel is 16.1" long. With this you're going to wind up with the equivalent length of about 9.8-10.8" with the muzzle device, and 12.7-13.7" with the can mounted. With the stock mostly or fully collapsed, you're getting the benefit of a high velocity .30 cal expanding bullet, high capacity and reduced sound signature in a package that's noticeably shorter than a 6920, and significantly shorter than an 18" barreled riot gun.
That's a lot of +'s in the column to offset the price of a tax stamp or two.
What seems to be getting glossed over is how we are talking amongst a group that, if one of us has a suppressed short barrel AR type rifle, likely have at least one standard 16" non-NFA they can do everything else with, such as interstate travel without a federal permission slip.
160+ db incredibly loud, indoors or outdoors (particularly next to a wall, over concrete, under a canopy or overpass, etc) or heaven forbid, touching a shotgun/rifle caliber carbine off from inside your car in a bugout/get home scenario as listed in OP title...has to be a lot of points awarded to the suppressed short barrel option here
I mean, isn't the ability to add a meaningful suppressor without a ridiculous end result the main reason most of us or those like us would do a short barrel AR?
A supressed AR is an awesome choice. When I first got my SBR's I couldn't have a supressor and it was about OAL and I just wanted them!
I am not worried about ear protection in a fight for my life . I'd be more interested in putting pants on and I'd probably not do that either.
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A supressed AR is an awesome choice. When I first got my SBR's I couldn't have a supressor and it was about OAL and I just wanted them!
I am not worried about ear protection in a fight for my life . I'd be more interested in putting pants on and I'd probably not do that either.
A couple to 10 shots of 5.56 isn't going to make you deaf for life.
Will your ears be ringing? Sure. Temp hearing loss? Maybe.
Deaf for life? Nope.
Soldiers have been fighting for a hundred years with firearms, to include close ranged combat. Sure, ear pro / suppressed weapons are a huge bonus, but I think people either (1) overstate things or (2) are just pu$$ies.
A couple to 10 shots of 5.56 isn't going to make you deaf for life.
Will your ears be ringing? Sure. Temp hearing loss? Maybe.
Deaf for life? Nope.
Soldiers have been fighting for a hundred years with firearms, to include close ranged combat. Sure, ear pro / suppressed weapons are a huge bonus, but I think people either (1) overstate things or (2) are just pu$$ies.
Would it be advantageous to avoid temporary hearing loss (and any possible degree of disorientation)?
I mean, by all means, run a 10.3" AR with a big beautiful muzzle brake to show those pussies what a real man uses for his gun. No ear pro of course. Indoors. Such masculine. So bold.
(and nevermind the wife or children that might be around for the firearm being discharged, they aren't pussies either)
Would it be advantageous to avoid temporary hearing loss (and any possible degree of disorientation)?
I mean, by all means, run a 10.3" AR with a big beautiful muzzle brake to show those pussies what a real man uses for his gun. No ear pro of course. Indoors. Such masculine. So bold.
(and nevermind the wife or children that might be around for the firearm being discharged, they aren't pussies either)
You know the perps guns will be at full volume
Rhinowso has a point.
I have lost hearing over the years due to gunfire. I'm not deaf but I flunked a hearing test that I would have passed easily at 21. I have tinnitus. I get random VWEEeeeeee sounds in my bad ear. I have to either have a fan going, a tv on, or fall asleep listening to light jazz. I need white noise.
I'm not totally deaf but I have lost hearing and a suppressor would not have really helped, hindered, or otherwise. It's just life. Can't change it. Not gonna tabletop RPG and over-plan for it. Hopefully never have to go through stuff like that again.
Threads like these are quagmires.
If you want a 7.5 AR with the latest suppressor and a night vision scope, have at it.
This thread is kinda lame and frustrating.
If people really want the full experience, Army and Marine recruiters are at the mall and the Sheriff's Office and Police Department is downtown.
Go fill out some paperwork and have fun.
Firefly Audi 5000 from this thread
You know the perps guns will be at full volume
Rhinowso has a point.
I have lost hearing over the years due to gunfire. I'm not deaf but I flunked a hearing test that I would have passed easily at 21. I have tinnitus. I get random VWEEeeeeee sounds in my bad ear. I have to either have a fan going, a tv on, or fall asleep listening to light jazz. I need white noise.
I'm not totally deaf but I have lost hearing and a suppressor would not have really helped, hindered, or otherwise. It's just life. Can't change it. Not gonna tabletop RPG and over-plan for it. Hopefully never have to go through stuff like that again.
Threads like these are quagmires.
If you want a 7.5 AR with the latest suppressor and a night vision scope, have at it.
This thread is kinda lame and frustrating.
If people really want the full experience, Army and Marine recruiters are at the mall and the Sheriff's Office and Police Department is downtown.
Go fill out some paperwork and have fun.
Firefly Audi 5000 from this thread
lol, a suppressed short AR for defense makes you a wannabe marine/leo now?
What does a 6920 make you, wannabe army grunt?
Why can't you stick to the topic at hand and discuss it in a mature and respectful manner?
PS: I'm quite sure that if firing a 5.56 AR indoors (or out) without hearing protection, having a suppressor on it would be beneficial to your hearing, short term and long term
Paperwork? I already filled out my Form 1 and my Form 4, but thanks. :)
You know the perps guns will be at full volume
Rhinowso has a point.
I have lost hearing over the years due to gunfire. I'm not deaf but I flunked a hearing test that I would have passed easily at 21. I have tinnitus. I get random VWEEeeeeee sounds in my bad ear. I have to either have a fan going, a tv on, or fall asleep listening to light jazz. I need white noise.
I'm not totally deaf but I have lost hearing and a suppressor would not have really helped, hindered, or otherwise. It's just life. Can't change it. Not gonna tabletop RPG and over-plan for it. Hopefully never have to go through stuff like that again.
Threads like these are quagmires.
If you want a 7.5 AR with the latest suppressor and a night vision scope, have at it.
This thread is kinda lame and frustrating.
If people really want the full experience, Army and Marine recruiters are at the mall and the Sheriff's Office and Police Department is downtown.
Go fill out some paperwork and have fun.
Firefly Audi 5000 from this thread
This attitude is kinda lame and frustrating. Wanting the best option for HD doesn't make you a wannabe and neither does owning a black rifle. NV doesn't even have a place in this thread and borders on hyperbole. The perp's gun will be at full volume IF they get a shot off. It will most likely not be as close to the ear as your gun will (if you're fortunate), so you shouldn't be concerned about a variable that's beyond your control. The phenomenon of auditory exclusion during a critical incident is a matter of the brain restricting signals from the ears. It doesn't mean the ears don't sustain permanent damage from decibel levels that high. Not wanting to fail hearing tests in the future isn't a foolish endeavor. Just because YOU can't pass one, doesn't mean everyone else should just accept it as a fact of life.
This is a FUDD type response and frankly, I am disappointed. :(
Oh, and some of us in the pro-SBR/can column have BTDT,GTTS already, so there's no need for us to reenlist or get re-commissioned. ;)
This thread is kinda lame and frustrating.
If people really want the full experience, Army and Marine recruiters are at the mall and the Sheriff's Office and Police Department is downtown.
Go fill out some paperwork and have fun.
Agreed, some people just need to argue the same point over and over, without the ability to comprehend. While being overly sensitive to boot.
Maybe BARF had a purge? IDK.
Peace out.
I think some of this talk about needing a suppressed AR for home defense seems to involve at least a little bit of fantasy. I mean it's a free county, and suppressors are bad ass and all, but I personally don't consider noise levels WRT self defense to be a major concern.
I'm exposed to a lot of other significant noise hazards on a day to day basis, but I'm comfortable taking my chances unsuppressed for a self defense situation that, to be honest, really isn't that likely to happen anyway.
Sounds good. Now back to your regularly scheduled political ranting.
You know the perps guns will be at full volume
Rhinowso has a point.
I have lost hearing over the years due to gunfire. I'm not deaf but I flunked a hearing test that I would have passed easily at 21. I have tinnitus. I get random VWEEeeeeee sounds in my bad ear. I have to either have a fan going, a tv on, or fall asleep listening to light jazz. I need white noise.
I'm not totally deaf but I have lost hearing and a suppressor would not have really helped, hindered, or otherwise. It's just life. Can't change it. Not gonna tabletop RPG and over-plan for it. Hopefully never have to go through stuff like that again.
Threads like these are quagmires.
If you want a 7.5 AR with the latest suppressor and a night vision scope, have at it.
This thread is kinda lame and frustrating.
If people really want the full experience, Army and Marine recruiters are at the mall and the Sheriff's Office and Police Department is downtown.
Go fill out some paperwork and have fun.
Firefly Audi 5000 from this thread
A couple to 10 shots of 5.56 isn't going to make you deaf for life.
Will your ears be ringing? Sure. Temp hearing loss? Maybe.
Deaf for life? Nope.
Soldiers have been fighting for a hundred years with firearms, to include close ranged combat. Sure, ear pro / suppressed weapons are a huge bonus, but I think people either (1) overstate things or (2) are just pu$$ies.
People be different.
What got me my first hearing aide was cracking a muff to talk to a guy on the line and someone shooting one off next to my ear. Pain. Threshold hearing loss beyond what I had already sustained over 25 years as a FI and 11+ years of .mil being around A/C during airborne ops.
Up to that point I was getting by, the hearing loss from that one event was immediately noticeable. Enough to get me a hearing aide.
Outlander Systems
12-04-17, 17:28
One thing that's being missed is that a rifle, without earpro, in a confined space isn't going to be loud, it's going to be skull-jarringly, disorientation-inducingly, bell-ringingly loud. Like, "honey, where the hell am I" loud.
Keep earpro by your long gun or get a can.
Shorty AR, no earpro/no can indoors?
Good.
Luck.
For one, I wasn't advocating a SBR sans can / earpro as COA 1.
But the idea that you'll wet your pants and suck your thumb after shooting one inside is just something I don't agree with.
Pick your tools, study your battlefield, but be prepared for it to not go as expected.
Averageman
12-04-17, 19:22
I'm not poor by any means, but I don't have the three K to buy a gun that would for the most part sit bedside and that would leave a giant paper trail of tax stamps behind it. Of course that's not mentioning adding another caliber to load up on, new dies and powder etc, etc.
So yeah a 300 Black Out SBR'ed AR with a can sounds sexy as hell, but it is a bit of a leap from reality.
So when that "bump in the night" comes I will likely fall back after calling 911 and deal with it from cover with my Glock or my AR while wearing some Peltors. Of course that's the worst case scenario.
More than likely they will fall back when the alarm, the door and the dog make the cost in time prohibitive toward breaching.
I think some of this talk about needing a suppressed AR for home defense seems to involve at least a little bit of fantasy. I mean it's a free county, and suppressors are bad ass and all, but I personally don't consider noise levels WRT self defense to be a major concern.
I'm exposed to a lot of other significant noise hazards on a day to day basis, but I'm comfortable taking my chances unsuppressed for a self defense situation that, to be honest, really isn't that likely to happen anyway.
Whoa there, who said or implied anything about "needing" a suppressed AR for home defense? Quote please? Just because a person decides a suppressor on a short barrel is advantageous or even worth doing to them, that doesn't mean it is a "need" or a 'must have'. I like an Aimpoint on my HD rifle too, but I would never say you "need" one.
One thing that's being missed is that a rifle, without earpro, in a confined space isn't going to be loud, it's going to be skull-jarringly, disorientation-inducingly, bell-ringingly loud. Like, "honey, where the hell am I" loud.
Keep earpro by your long gun or get a can.
Shorty AR, no earpro/no can indoors?
Good.
Luck.
Yeah it could be quite a rude awaking to touch off a 5.56 in a confined space with no ear pro...for you and for others, possibly small children, who are nearby. I'd rather not find out, ya know?
I'm not poor by any means, but I don't have the three K to buy a gun that would for the most part sit bedside and that would leave a giant paper trail of tax stamps behind it. Of course that's not mentioning adding another caliber to load up on, new dies and powder etc, etc.
So yeah a 300 Black Out SBR'ed AR with a can sounds sexy as hell, but it is a bit of a leap from reality.
So when that "bump in the night" comes I will likely fall back after calling 911 and deal with it from cover with my Glock or my AR while wearing some Peltors. Of course that's the worst case scenario.
More than likely they will fall back when the alarm, the door and the dog make the cost in time prohibitive toward breaching.
That's why I changed my Form 1 from 300 blackout to 5.56 at the last minute lol
I'm not poor by any means, but I don't have the three K to buy a gun that would for the most part sit bedside and that would leave a giant paper trail of tax stamps behind it. Of course that's not mentioning adding another caliber to load up on, new dies and powder etc, etc.
So yeah a 300 Black Out SBR'ed AR with a can sounds sexy as hell, but it is a bit of a leap from reality.
So when that "bump in the night" comes I will likely fall back after calling 911 and deal with it from cover with my Glock or my AR while wearing some Peltors. Of course that's the worst case scenario.
More than likely they will fall back when the alarm, the door and the dog make the cost in time prohibitive toward breaching.
I feel your pain. With the better half being over 50, college grad and an abundance of quality work experience, the new way to say "you're too old" is " you're overqualified and we don't think you'd be satisfied". The struggle is real and I'm gun poor with nothing I want to get rid of. So it's the Glock 21 for me until/if things change for the better. :(
Dist. Expert 26
12-04-17, 21:28
So when that "bump in the night" comes I will likely fall back after calling 911 and deal with it from cover with my Glock or my AR while wearing some Peltors. Of course that's the worst case scenario.
More than likely they will fall back when the alarm, the door and the dog make the cost in time prohibitive toward breaching.
Weapon considerations aside, just now long do you think you would have to react to such a scenario? If said home invasion were to occur when you were in stage 3 sleep it would take, at a minimum, 15-30 seconds before you would be awake enough to respond adequately.
After burning that much time do you want to take another 10 seconds to put on ear pro? I don't. The same applies for calling the police. Unless you have someone else there to do it, it's a waste of valuable time. Tinnitus only affects the living.
If an individual is breaking into a dwelling they know to be occupied, they're doing so with the intent, or at the very least willingness, to commit violence. Your best bet for coming out on top is to be more violent, faster.
A couple to 10 shots of 5.56 isn't going to make you deaf for life.
Will your ears be ringing? Sure. Temp hearing loss? Maybe.
Deaf for life? Nope.
Soldiers have been fighting for a hundred years with firearms, to include close ranged combat. Sure, ear pro / suppressed weapons are a huge bonus, but I think people either (1) overstate things or (2) are just pu$$ies.
I agree. Suppressors make sense. Earpro in a fight is freaking assine! This is life or death not the range or hunting. People are trying to kill you! Why would you put on ear protection and mess with freaking buttons. My Sordins are freaking awesome but they take 5-10 seconds to put on and turn on. That's enough time to get killed or have my kids killed. I've been there and done that. I know how loud guns, rockets, tanks, line charges and artillery are. They're Wicked Freaking Loud! It sucks. I'm not deaf and I've been around thek plenty. Would I shoot at the range with out ear protection? Heck No. I did that once with my brand new 686 .357 magnum in the early 1990's. That was stupid and hurt like hell! Will I fight with out them.? Yup. It ain't worth dying to keep my hearing perfect. I don't hunt with them either. My son insists on wearing his Soridins. I have never been bothered by shotguns, rifles or pistols while hunting either and my ears don't ring afterwards. This isn't a planned event. It's life. I didn't sit in a car seat, wear seatbelts, kneepads, elbow pads or a bike helmet as a kid either. I even rode daily in the back of a pick up truck! A suppressor makes sense. My electronic earpro is in my range bag where it belongs.
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15 pages on Home D. What about the other parameters of the OP? What about Truck, Bob, etc?
The OP mentioned use out to 300 yds. Aren't we past the handgun/shotgun use in those ranges?
Diamondback
12-05-17, 00:37
15 pages on Home D. What about the other parameters of the OP? What about Truck, Bob, etc?
To be honest, I abandoned the thread when things went from "how to set up a shorty (whether pistol or SBR) to be not just fun but useful too" into all the back-and-forth invective flying--the broad range of scenarios was just meant to say "for whatever Serious Work purpose one might find himself concerned with." And now that it seems to have become nothing but general sniping at each other, as far as I'm concerned the mods are welcome to lock it down any time they like, my dog's OUT of this fight.
Hell, with how bad my eyes are I'm considering having my optometrist cut a spare left lens on my next pair of glasses and rig a rail-mount for it...
Peace, fellas, I'm Over and OUT on this one.
grizzlyblake
12-05-17, 06:09
That's too bad, because the discussion is pretty good and certainly interesting to see the wide swath of opinions.
The topic is very interesting to me because I am still trying to set up the most realistic "do it all" AR carbine that I can. Over the last year I've shed a ton of extraneous guns and other life junk just to minimize things and grow the bank account.
Right now I have one stock 6720 and a Trooper 6920, neither of which are outfitted yet. I've owned 6920s and 6720s in the past so this is not all new to me.
My immediate "normal" inside gun is a G19 with tritium sights and a Streamlight Pro Tac 1L next to it. I live in the country so I would like to have one of the ARs set up to be usable in an indoors situation, and also outside to 200yds or so. My astigmatism means Aimpoints are close range only so I need something different. Also, I have no interest in stamps so everything I have/want is 16" unsuppressed.
I want to set this rifle up and just let it be a go-to for the next twenty years without dicking around with it. I want it to be easily usable by anyone else who may need to grab it or wants to shoot it for fun. It needs to be robust enough to be thrown in the back of the truck without a case, bumped around camp, rode hard and put away wet.
Use cases for me would be pest control outside (coyotes, etc.), hog and deer hunting, property defense, and of course the in-house firefight that keeps being talked about here
An ACOG keeps looking good but I get all heartburny when I think of the cost being equal to a Gen 5 G19 and case of ammo.
Options that I've been kicking around:
1) Trooper 6920
a) Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 on Aero mount, no BUIS, Pro Tac 1L on Proctor Light Mount
b) Vortex Spitfire AR 1x, no BUIS, Pro Tac 1L on PLM
2) 6720
a) DD A1.5 rear, Pro Tac 1L in IWC Mount n'slot
b) EXPS2-0, MBUS rear, Pro Tac 1L in IWB Mount n'slot
c) Vortex Spitfire AR 1x, no rear MBUS, Pro Tac 1L in Mount n'slot
jerrysimons
12-05-17, 10:13
Read most of the thread, good convo. Bunch of good thoughts and mindset checks. I will say this as someone who loves to obsess over ARs and "perfect" builds for HD or whatever. There is more consideration to a HD scenario than terminal ballistics. One handed operation or at least one handed, gun-up orientation is very important to me. Opening doors, baby gates, carrying a scared child from one from to the next for barricading, opening a window and dropping the 2 story fire escape ladder, holding a cell phone, etc. So basically a pistol is the immediate HD gun, a Glock 19 with X300 (his and hers). Then an ultralightwieght suppressed, SBR AR with 2pt sling is secondary. Ideally, sling the SBR and grab pistol, get kids safe involving movement and dexterity. Either hunker down to blast a clown with AR or escape.
To be honest, I abandoned the thread when things went from "how to set up a shorty (whether pistol or SBR) to be not just fun but useful too" into all the back-and-forth invective flying--the broad range of scenarios was just meant to say "for whatever Serious Work purpose one might find himself concerned with." And now that it seems to have become nothing but general sniping at each other, as far as I'm concerned the mods are welcome to lock it down any time they like, my dog's OUT of this fight.
Hell, with how bad my eyes are I'm considering having my optometrist cut a spare left lens on my next pair of glasses and rig a rail-mount for it...
Peace, fellas, I'm Over and OUT on this one.
Please accept my apologies for my part in any of it. We do tend to guard our opinions zealously, as if they're worth some actual value beyond what the reader gleans from it. That's on us. I do however value the opinions of others participating here and there have been a lot of excellent points raised. The best you can do is take what works for you and leave the rest. FWIW, I've known officers with substantial training who could hit pretty much anything they wanted inside 200 yards with a rifle sighted 870 Police Magnum. They could run slug select drills like a magician. So for some, a riot gun makes perfect sense. As for myself, I might like to have a SBR for HD that I could also throw in the 4Runner when heading off grid or if things got dangerous locally (which is highly unlikely), but I've won regional and national championship titles with a handgun, so I certainly don't feel outgunned at hallway ranges with a Glock. If I did, I'd already have that SBR.
Good luck with your choices!
RVTMaverick
12-05-17, 12:26
Approx. 6 yrs ago now, My Bride bought me my 1st AR/M4, this was a combo. Christmas/Birthday gift she bought for me, And YES, She IS Awesome!
Anyhow, Short Story Time: And Time was going by and More time, kept going by and I wasn't able to get to the range and Touch this sweet gift OFF.
So now, approx. a month had gone by and I was completely out of my mind wanting to shoot this carbine.
OK, Think of the Movie with the "DESK POP" in it, You guys know what I am talking about?
Well, I got home before my Bride, NO one home next door, I set up a STACK of phone books 5 Deep wrapped with duct tape, set them up in front of a 3/4" piece of plywood, up against the back wall of my garage. I had the dogs out back.... Loaded a round, (YES I Did) took aim and PULLED that Little ITTI BITTI Trigger and KAAAAA-BOOM!:lol: I quickly realized I didn't have my hearing protection ON! :no: OMGOODNESS it Was LOUD LOL
I ran to the back door to check on my dogs, who disappeard across the back yard in a split second! Then I ran through the house to look out the front windows to make sure no one was walking by out in the street, the police never came by that day, thank God!
So Yes, I have fired an AR in my house while NOT wearing hearing protection and to this day, I still carry my AR slung for HD, along with my 9mm, 19 in the mag. 1 in the chamber... ;)
Garage POP
I'm all about hardening your home as the first line of your defense strategy, just as I am all about preaching and practicing situational awareness and deescalation techniques to avoid most problems from occurring in the first place. Second line would be a phone nearby at all times to call for help. But even with layers of security, stuff happens. You wouldn't choose to not have a fire extinguisher around just because your house has smoke detectors. Even though it might be the last line of defense, it's one of the most critical because it may be the only thing you can count on to save your butt if all else fails.
I am also a huge advocate for suppressors. No, the bad guys will not be running cans... You have no control over that. You do have control over certain things, however. Why would you choose to forego your own safety equipment based on the fact that someone else might not have it? Just because a guy might blow a red light without his seatbelt on doesn't mean that I won't wear mine all the time or wait until he's about to hit me to try to buckle up. Trying to don muffs in an emergency isn't a good plan, and would reduce your situational awareness even if you did but weren't able to turn them on.
Every gun should have a light, but it's important to point out that your weapon light should definitely not be the only flashlight on your person.
And it's cliche but you should train how you fight. I don't believe in setting up a gun specifically for HD. If you want an 8" .300BLK running subs for a HD gun but it's too expensive for you to go out and shoot every other weekend then to me it's kind of pointless. If you can afford that, more power to you. My truck gun is my training gun, which is also my HD gun, more often than not my range blaster and - guess what - it's frequently my hunting rifle too. Not by coincidence or because I don't have a lot of guns, but because I believe in practice, training, familiarity and consistency. Likewise, my carry gun is also my night stand gun which is also my training gun and blah blah blah. I have a lifted truck and sometimes I jump in my wife's little car and feel like I have to re-learn how to drive, it handles differently, brakes differently, I park it like shit because I'm not used to the size of it, etc. Likewise, you need to know your gun and support gear like the back of your hand. You need to be able to use it efficiently, in total darkness, while groggy, possibly while injured, with either hand, under stress, while performing multiple tasks. Yes, you should be able to pick any gun up in a pinch and know how to shoot it... but if you're using your gun enough, you will probably not be able to run just any gun like your gun. That's what separates shooters from collectors.
Read most of the thread, good convo. Bunch of good thoughts and mindset checks. I will say this as someone who loves to obsess over ARs and "perfect" builds for HD or whatever. There is more consideration to a HD scenario than terminal ballistics. One handed operation or at least one handed, gun-up orientation is very important to me. Opening doors, baby gates, carrying a scared child from one from to the next for barricading, opening a window and dropping the 2 story fire escape ladder, holding a cell phone, etc. So basically a pistol is the immediate HD gun, a Glock 19 with X300 (his and hers). Then an ultralightwieght suppressed, SBR AR with 2pt sling is secondary. Ideally, sling the SBR and grab pistol, get kids safe involving movement and dexterity. Either hunker down to blast a clown with AR or escape.
His and hers matching guns is an Outstanding idea! So is the discussion about slings and lights. "If you can't sling it. Don't bring it."
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Not to further derail the thread, but if I recall properly I saw someone briefly mention pistol caliber weapons during the rifle/shotgun for HD debate. Any one have any further thoughts or first hand experience with a subgun (or similar type weapon, Scorpion EVO, MPX-K, Angstadt UDP9, etc) for this role? I’ve been entertaining this idea for me personally for a variety of reasons but was curious if anyone else with more experience could weigh in.
Outlander Systems
12-08-17, 12:53
I've chased that dragon and got burned.
PCCs/PDWs are a waste of time. None of the advantages of a pistol, with all of the disadvantages in terms of
terminal ballistics. I'd take a shorty 5.56 over any shoulder-fired pistol-cartidge shooter, all day long, even on the moon.
Not to further derail the thread, but if I recall properly I saw someone briefly mention pistol caliber weapons during the rifle/shotgun for HD debate. Any one have any further thoughts or first hand experience with a subgun (or similar type weapon, Scorpion EVO, MPX-K, Angstadt UDP9, etc) for this role? I’ve been entertaining this idea for me personally for a variety of reasons but was curious if anyone else with more experience could weigh in.
A PCC is better than a pistol IMO, but you're better to just use a 5.56 rifle for superior weapon effects.
Only situation I like a PCC is one that is legally a pistol for use outside the home. A folding brace MPX-K / Scorpion can easily fit in a typical backpack and be loaded. Whereas an AR won't and uber short ARs (<10.5") I think effectiveness / function / ballistics really suffer.
I appreciate the responses guys. What got me thinking about this was particularly the discussion about noise and hearing loss inside of a structure (i.e. my house).
While I know a pistol cartridge would still be loud I, in my inexperience, have been looking at the pros being basically more maneuverable than an SBR/AR pistol equipped with a practical barrel length (10.3 or longer, I wouldn’t go shorter for 5.56), lighter weight (gun up with one hand if needed), and greater capacity than a handgun (30+ rounds of 124 +P Gold Dots against most likely unarmored assailants). Plus the ability to sling it sans clothes, since I cant holster a pistol in boxers at 3am.
But again, I love hearing input from more experienced people than myself. I may be looking at this all wrong.
(Mods if this is derailing too much I can start a new thread in the AR pistol forum.)
grizzlyblake
12-08-17, 14:32
Several people, myself included, have posted that their EDC pistol is their home defense pistol as well. I think that's a solid decision because of economics, training familiarity, etc. but I could also see the value in a hot rod HD only pistol. I would be inclined to build one before a PCC or something like that.
I think a G17 or 19 milled for an RMR with a few of the new Magpul 27rd Glock mags and a WML would be about the epitome of in-house defense for an average American home. One of those kydex trigger guards with the lanyard that could be silently removed would be excellent for keeping it ready to go on the nightstand. In fact, now I want one.
My EDC G19 is my HD pistol - because while I'm awake, it's always conveniently with me - at night it is close by. It has an XC1 WML which is plenty sufficient for my home and a handheld Surefire to back it up. Not into RMR stuff yet and don't feel the need to have a race EDC gun.
When it comes to slings, I'm not a fan of them on a HD rifle - should you get caught in a scuffle with someone, it could become a choking hazard. For stability I can shoot well enough <10m without one. Personal choice. If it's for pest control outside the house (hogs), I have a QD sling that I can put on quickly.
Outlander Systems
12-08-17, 16:20
The most badass PDW is a 9mm Glock with G18 mag.
YMMV.
So Does XAR's Invicta change anything? It certainly would make for easy storage.
My primary CCW (when I’m not forced to carry an abysmal M&P for work) is a G19. So my G17 may just have gotten a new role. And you guys may have saved me a lot of money as well. 👍🏼
The most badass PDW is the M1 Carbine.
Fixed it for ya :big_boss:
My opinion on PCC:
Pistol<PCC<5.56
The thing that keeps me considering one as a bedside gun is that I shoot 147gr 9mm in my pistols, which is generally subsonic. As such, it is designed to expand at subsonic velocities, and it is subsonic at full power. This adds up to (maybe) being better with a can and ultra short barrel for use indoors. Perhaps a 4.5” barrel with a 7” or 8” suppressor under the rail. Like a MP5SD, but with greater risk of baffle strikes, and no rollers.
I always come back to 5.56, though, for reasons of ballistics and reliability. It just plain works.
If one is concerned with the need to holster their bedside gun, drop a battle belt next to your bed. Then in less than 3 seconds you can be wearing a gun, retention holster, FAK, mags, and handheld light.
I sling my rifles, buck naked.
I think a G17 or 19 milled for an RMR with a few of the new Magpul 27rd Glock mags and a WML would be about the epitome of in-house defense for an average American home.
Genuinely curious - why the Magpul mag in lieu of a G18 31/33 rounder?
Like Bogart, I have an under-utilized G17 that may come out of the safe; my "always" G19 is a pre-rail Gen 2.
Andy
I like the turn this thread has taken. I have my CZ EVO and Angstadt Arms 9mm’s in my bedroom now because I didn’t put them back in the safe last night. I was looking at them because I noticed my SiCo suppressor is moving about 1/4” while mounted to the tri lug bbl!the 9mm’s are much smaller than the 12 ga they’re laying next to. I really see the Angstadt and CZ as toys with potential at this point.
It stuck me as I was carrying the CZ and a bandolier with 4 loaded magazines that 32 rounds of 9mm is quite a bit heavier than a 30 round magazine full of the more powerful 5.56.
I have a holstered G17 with X300 and two spare magazines very close by that would be what I’d grab first. The shotgun isn’t loaded but could be fairly quickly. Options are nice!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171209/32832722d268ec77809e974aca21ee7d.jpg
Oh there is that pesky M4 SBR too!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171209/83d2e84169fee3c5e07d7201e9a12b67.jpg
In a push button VLine.
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grizzlyblake
12-09-17, 14:38
Genuinely curious - why the Magpul mag in lieu of a G18 31/33 rounder?
Like Bogart, I have an under-utilized G17 that may come out of the safe; my "always" G19 is a pre-rail Gen 2.
Andy
Absolutely zero other than I just saw it was a neat "coming soon" product from Magpul. The G18 mag is a more proven unit so I'd probably go that route.
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