View Full Version : Winchester 9mm +P+ pre-Black Talon
I have some 9mm Luger ammo headstamped "WCC +P+" and "8 5".
Brass case, copper bullet, 6-petal HP, flattened meplat, no (or clear) primer sealer, loaded round weight ~ 192gr, bullet weight undetermined.
If the numerals are a date, these are pre-Black Talon/Ranger and I'd like to know history, ballistics or any info you have.
Thanks.
LMT Shooter
12-03-17, 14:53
It might be RA9115HP+P+, I still have some, looks identical. Mine also has the exact same headstamp. If that ain't what it is, it's probably just a different bullet.
Are you sure it's factory ammo? Is there red primer sealant?
IIRC, this was the issue load for Illinois State Police back in the day. I know little else about it.
Thanks for the reply, Brett.
Primer sealer is minimal and MAY be pinkish but quantity and color is nothing like the red sealer on Black Talons.
These were given to me (not in the original box, though) by a retired LEO who doesn't reload so I'm pretty confident it's factory stuff.
FWIW, I'll note that the loaded Black Talons (bullet weight unknown) weigh ~182 gr total (10ish gr less).
BT on right:
It looks like LE ammunition widely sold before the Black Talon was conceived. Muzzle velocity out of a 4" S&W barrel should be 1,340 fps.
I've fired several thousand rounds of it. What else do you need to know?
TNX T2C - as I suspected, but I couldn't find anything online for Win +P+ other than BT and later variants.
Guess it'll make good practice fodder.
The chamber pressure is well above average, so shoot it out of a sturdy pistol.
M&P 9c.
FWIW, the Black Talon +P+ clocked only 1180 fps out of it.
LMT Shooter
12-04-17, 17:48
M&P 9c.
FWIW, the Black Talon +P+ clocked only 1180 fps out of it.
With what bullet weight? 1180 would be about right for a 147gr +P+.
Could be 147, Brett.
I'll pull a bullet from each tomorrow and report back.
LMT Shooter
12-04-17, 19:22
Could be 147, Brett.
I'll pull a bullet from each tomorrow and report back.
I am almost 100% certain that the Black Talon was only sold (commercially) with 147gr bullets.
These were given to me by a retired LEO, Brett. I'm thinking 115 or 124 but we'll know tomorrow. :-)
I went ahead and checked - the Black Talon is 127 gr, the older load is 116.6 gr (!).
I don't know what to think about the chrono reading on the BTs.
LMT Shooter
12-04-17, 21:09
It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. IIRC, there were other bullet weights available to LE, after Winchester withdrew BT from the civilian market, but I recall Black Talon was introduced with heavy for caliber bullets.
The projectiles on the original Black Talon ammunition were black in color.
Also black in the first LE Only series with brass case, as mine are, according to what I've read.
In the searches I've done, I've not found anyone who could definitively state the complete development history of the Black Talon/Ranger/T series though.
If the ammunition you have has a 1985 headstamp, it should not be Black Talon. Black Talon ammunition was released by Winchester 6 years later IIRC.
Right, T2C - I have a box of '85 WCC +P+ with copper bullet and a box of '95 WCC +P+ with black bullet.
That's old Winchester LE Ammo which was essentially a 115gr WWB JHP loaded to +P+ (1300fps)
Nothing in those photos even resembles anything Black Talon outside of being stamped Winchester. You keep referencing BT......are you referring to something that wasn't pictured? The original BT ammo was nickel cased and came in 147gr 9mm and wasn't loaded +P or +P+. Once Winchester pulled it from civilian sales they began using brass cases for the LE version which went by Winchester SXT which was the same name without the BT.
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I've been referring to 2 different boxes of +P+ ammo but haven't had need to post a picture of the Black Talons.
I have a box with brass case and black Lubaloy 127 gr bullet, which is the Black Talon bullet even if not advertised as such.
I've been referring to 2 different boxes of +P+ ammo but haven't had need to post a picture of the Black Talons.
I have a box with brass case and black Lubaloy 127 gr bullet, which is the Black Talon bullet even if not advertised as such.
Winchester was trying to get LE agencies to drop the 115g +P+ and adopt the 127g Talon before politics prompted Winchester to drop the Black Talon name.
The Black Talon box is marked +P+? Is there a lot number stamped inside the box flap?
By the time the 127 hit the market the "Black" Talon name had bee dropped and they were simply Ranger. They later changed to Ranger T-Series and lost the black coating once Winchester added their line of bonded bullets to the Ranger line.
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They didn't come to me in an original box so no help there.
My apologies if my calling them Black Talons has caused confusion.
My searches found many others calling this series (the first of the Ranger series?) Black Talons also, since (according to what I've read) they are the original Black Talon bullet, just not in a nickled case, so Black Talons in everything but name.
In any case it's all a bit off-topic since my purpose in posting was to determine what the other box was, which has been well answered.
sundance435
12-05-17, 15:49
That looks like a Ranger SXT to me. The early Rangers, up until late 90's, had the same black coating as the BT, but were brass cased. IIRC, these black Ranger SXTs only came in 127 +p+.
TNX, sundance, I wasn't aware the Lubaloy coating was in production that long.
As it happens, the older 115 +P+ are in a Ranger SXT 127gr box so I can now at least reunite it with the correct cartridges.
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