View Full Version : Long Term NP3
I am considering a coated BCG in a suppressed upper for ease of cleaning. I have heard some negative feedback on NIB coatings, but most of the feedback related to NP3 seems to be positive. Has anyone experienced any chipping, flaking, etc with NP3? What kind of round counts have people managed without any trouble? Thanks.
NP3 is nothing even remotely like NiB. It's also been use for decades. We have countless guns in use by LE agencies and there have been no issues.
I am considering a coated BCG in a suppressed upper for ease of cleaning. I have heard some negative feedback on NIB coatings, but most of the feedback related to NP3 seems to be positive. Has anyone experienced any chipping, flaking, etc with NP3? What kind of round counts have people managed without any trouble? Thanks.
I prefer NP3+ but both are good.
I haven't had issues with my NP3 BCG. I have about 900 rounds with in an SPR, temps from below freezing to above 100. The only caveat to my use is that it does get very hot due to the nature of precision shooting.
SeriousStudent
12-07-17, 21:02
I use a Sionics NP3 BCG in all my suppressed AR's. They run like a champ with no issues.
I'd stay the hell away from NIB. But I love the NP3 BCG's I have.
Slightly off-topic, I'm sending a neat old 3" K-frame Smith and Wesson revolver to Robar, to have them do their NP3 magic on it.
You will love the result. Thinking of doing a P7 myself.
While not a BCG, I had Beretta 96D do in it. While not an extreme high round count pistol, it shows little to no wear. It also makes the already slick Beretta action even more buttery smooth! It is also very easy to clean, more just wipes off with a rag.
I say it would be fine on a BCG.
Not running it suppressed, but one of my Sionics BCG's is closing in on 5000 rounds. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Very easy to clean.
NP3 is nothing even remotely like NiB. It's also been use for decades. We have countless guns in use by LE agencies and there have been no issues.
True on a few levels.
NiB on a bcg is a poor application of the coating.
The properties and morphology of NP3 are much better suited to bcg and other internal firearm parts.
voiceofreason
12-09-17, 16:00
So is there an issue with keeping lubricant on the NP3?
Or does it require much less using the NP3?
Not sure. I have a bottle of lube I keep by the safe. Whenever I get done using the rifle and go to put it away I usually put a couple drops through the exhaust holes in the bolt carrier.
This is somewhat relevant to me as I'm having a few sets of Glock internals at Robar now for NP3.
I went NP3 over NP3+ because it's a little harder than the + and I want max durability.
This is somewhat relevant to me as I'm having a few sets of Glock internals at Robar now for NP3.
I went NP3 over NP3+ because it's a little harder than the + and I want max durability.
My first semi auto was a S&W 5904 that I sent off to ROBAR for the NP3 plating. It was a top class job and the finish really held up- never even showed holster wear. I wish I had that gun today. I have a Sionics upper with their NP3 BCG and love it. It cleans up like no one's business and so far shows no wear.
vicious_cb
12-10-17, 04:13
So is there an issue with keeping lubricant on the NP3?
Or does it require much less using the NP3?
Lube as normal. NP3 isnt as porous as phosphate but carbon will still build up. It just cleans up easier.
I can't speak to the BCG's, but I do have two handguns with the treatment. I had them do up a S&W mod 19-2 about 12 years ago, and it is superb and scratch free. Also had a G26 done with the finish on the slide, barrel, and all internals. It has lasted for 19 years in mostly kydex holsters with no discernible wear.. It may yellow slightly over time but only slightly. The guns are so easy to clean and it seems to be self lubricating. Very slick. I had to put grip tape in the cocking grooves for positive racking.
It should be great on BCG's.
One of the problems with NiB is every tom dick and harry think they have the NiB thing down pat. NP3 is done by, I believe, one place, Robar. When my P228 slide would not fit back on its rails, the company recommended I grind down the aluminum rails. Paid another company to fix the problem, and sold the gun with full disclosure. Screw NiB. I'll use NP3 for future projects.
When my P228 slide would not fit back on its rails, the company recommended I grind down the aluminum rails.
Yikes, who?
Yikes, who?
WMD Guns. That was their name when I used them. Don't know if they're still around. Hope not.
Sionics BCG in NP3 is really nice. Slick and smooth. Cleans up with just rag. I have many bcg’s from colt, BCM, KAC, LMT and even a LANTAC. The NP3 is my favourite, by far.
Sionics BCG in NP3 is really nice. Slick and smooth. Cleans up with just rag. I have many bcg’s from colt, BCM, KAC, LMT and even a LANTAC. The NP3 is my favourite, by far.
I have one too and agree with everything except this statement. Now, depending on how you define "clean" it may do just that, and does for pretty much the entire BCG. The exception is the bolt tail. If you want it spic-and-span then some elbow grease is required. To be fair, I have yet to find a coating/treatment that just "wipes off" the baked-on carbon from the bolt tail (I have a Cryptic Coatings Mystic Black BCG but have yet to put it in a weapon).
Only caveat to cleaning a bolt tail done in NP3 is don't use brass or steel brushes, or even the old Army green "scratchy pads" (this is per a conversation with Robar themselves). You have to use a nylon brush to clean it without damaging the NP3 finish. It's certainly doable, just need to keep that in mind.
I soak bolt carrier groups in Seafoam overnight......everything wipes off with a paper towel.
I have one too and agree with everything except this statement. Now, depending on how you define "clean" it may do just that, and does for pretty much the entire BCG. The exception is the bolt tail. If you want it spic-and-span then some elbow grease is required. To be fair, I have yet to find a coating/treatment that just "wipes off" the baked-on carbon from the bolt tail (I have a Cryptic Coatings Mystic Black BCG but have yet to put it in a weapon).
Only caveat to cleaning a bolt tail done in NP3 is don't use brass or steel brushes, or even the old Army green "scratchy pads" (this is per a conversation with Robar themselves). You have to use a nylon brush to clean it without damaging the NP3 finish. It's certainly doable, just need to keep that in mind.
True about the tail, your right. Didn’t know about the nylon brush requirements. Thanks!
I have been using a Sionics NP3 BCG in one of my uppers. In under 1000 rounds, it appears to have significant wear of the finish at the contact points. It is perhaps best seen in the third picture linked below. The same pattern can manifest on phosphate bolt carrier groups, but I had hoped the NP3 would be a bit more durable than the phosphate. And yes, I do lubricate the gas key, rails, and port holes before every range session.
As we know, the bolt carrier group only makes contact with the receiver at contact points such as the four carrier rails and the gas key. If the NP3 is worn through in these areas, then any lubricity advantage with NP3 in regards to reliability becomes moot. You quickly end up with 8620 steel on anodized aluminum at the contact points, even if the parts of the carrier that glide along without contacting the receiver are coated in NP3. As such, I question whether this carrier would have any reliability advantage in adverse conditions over a standard phosphate carrier. If anything, it may be at a disadvantage if the non-contact points of the carrier hold on to lubrication with less affinity.
The carrier has worked flawlessly, and to its credit is incredibly easy to wipe clean. When I contacted Sionics I was told that the wear was normal, but they offered to allow me to return the carrier and discuss the issue with Robar. If this is indeed normal, I reasoned that it would not do any good to have it re-coated because it would quickly return to this condition when I shot it again anyway. I would not argue that it is defective or inferior to phosphate carriers, but I am now skeptical that there is any advantage to NP3 beyond ease of cleaning because the coating appears to wear off the contact points fairly quickly.
Have others had this experience?
https://ibb.co/fo4BCK
https://ibb.co/jdENKz
https://ibb.co/hhjdsK
https://ibb.co/m9h9zz
https://ibb.co/bXc9zz
Dionysusigma
09-20-18, 22:01
That looks more like mere polishing of the NP3 than deep wear... I wouldn't worry a bit.
That looks more like mere polishing of the NP3 than deep wear... I wouldn't worry a bit.
I considered that. You cannot see it well in the pictures but there are still scattered traces of finish in most of the worn areas reminiscent of what phosphated contact points look like with wear. It also looks suspiciously similar to a worn nibx bcg that was definitely not merely polished because the worn surface was a different color. In person it appears to be more worn off than polished, especially on the gas key. Additionally the listed depth of the NP3 is 1/1000 inch. I question whether that is deep enough to yield a polished surface. I do however remain open to the fact that I may be mistaken.
All types of coatings are going to exhibit some wear. Robar has told us that the NP3 penetrates into the substrate. The fact that the carbon wipes off from that area indicates that the process is working. If it is troubling you, then I would recommend sending it to SIONICS as they offered and allow Robar to examine and then provide feedback.
We have thousands and thousands of these in use with gov't/LE and civilians and virtually no issues at all.
BufordTJustice
09-22-18, 12:44
All types of coatings are going to exhibit some wear. Robar has told us that the NP3 penetrates into the substrate. The fact that the carbon wipes off from that area indicates that the process is working. If it is troubling you, then I would recommend sending it to SIONICS as they offered and allow Robar to examine and then provide feedback.
We have thousands and thousands of these in use with gov't/LE and civilians and virtually no issues at all.
This was my understanding of Robar as well; that it permeates the surface like
Glocks original tennifer. Where the black could wear off but the performance was still there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
09-24-18, 18:11
I am considering a coated BCG in a suppressed upper for ease of cleaning. I have heard some negative feedback on NIB coatings, but most of the feedback related to NP3 seems to be positive. Has anyone experienced any chipping, flaking, etc with NP3? What kind of round counts have people managed without any trouble? Thanks.
I have been using a Sionics NP3 BCG in one of my uppers. In under 1000 rounds, it appears to have significant wear of the finish at the contact points. It is perhaps best seen in the third picture linked below. The same pattern can manifest on phosphate bolt carrier groups, but I had hoped the NP3 would be a bit more durable than the phosphate. And yes, I do lubricate the gas key, rails, and port holes before every range session.
As we know, the bolt carrier group only makes contact with the receiver at contact points such as the four carrier rails and the gas key. If the NP3 is worn through in these areas, then any lubricity advantage with NP3 in regards to reliability becomes moot. You quickly end up with 8620 steel on anodized aluminum at the contact points, even if the parts of the carrier that glide along without contacting the receiver are coated in NP3. As such, I question whether this carrier would have any reliability advantage in adverse conditions over a standard phosphate carrier. If anything, it may be at a disadvantage if the non-contact points of the carrier hold on to lubrication with less affinity.
The carrier has worked flawlessly, and to its credit is incredibly easy to wipe clean. When I contacted Sionics I was told that the wear was normal, but they offered to allow me to return the carrier and discuss the issue with Robar. If this is indeed normal, I reasoned that it would not do any good to have it re-coated because it would quickly return to this condition when I shot it again anyway. I would not argue that it is defective or inferior to phosphate carriers, but I am now skeptical that there is any advantage to NP3 beyond ease of cleaning because the coating appears to wear off the contact points fairly quickly.
Have others had this experience?
https://ibb.co/fo4BCK
https://ibb.co/jdENKz
https://ibb.co/hhjdsK
https://ibb.co/m9h9zz
https://ibb.co/bXc9zz
Is chipping and flaking like you were concerned about in the OP? Then don't sweat it.
titsonritz
09-24-18, 18:12
This was my understanding of Robar as well; that it permeates the surface like
Glocks original tennifer. Where the black could wear off but the performance was still there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is my understanding (granted limited) as well.
Np3 is a plating and doesnt penetrate the surface.
However, it will fill valleys of the sustrate surface. The surface of the plating will polish, and even if worn down to the peaks of the substrate, will still offer benefits of increased hardness and lubricity from the PTFE.
Tenifer is a conversion coating and does, in fact, penetrate into the substrate.
Similar effect through different methods, i guess.
I have 5 or 6 AR's with NP3 coatings and they have endured high round count with zero issues. I love NP3 BCG's.
PB
I have 5 or 6 AR's with NP3 coatings and they have endured high round count with zero issues. I love NP3 BCG's.
PB
I love NP3 as well.
My Benelli M4 H2O is literally 100% NP3+ and it wipes clean so easily it is ridiculous.
I love NP3 as well.
My Benelli M4 H2O is literally 100% NP3+ and it wipes clean so easily it is ridiculous.
I love me some Benelli shotguns too. I’ve seen that H20 model. Nice gun.
PB
diving dave
11-11-18, 09:24
I have a Robar SR90 bolt gun I've had since the mid 1990's. The bolt is NP3, and other than minor wear at the rear of the locking lugs its held up well.
I have a Robar SR90 bolt gun I've had since the mid 1990's. The bolt is NP3, and other than minor wear at the rear of the locking lugs its held up well.
How would you describe the wear? Polishing? Coating perforation or missing? Thanks in advance!
diving dave
11-12-18, 13:09
No cracking or flaking, but you can see wear marks where the surfaces contact each other. I know a semi auto bolt has alot more going on that a bolt action, but it has held up well. On top of the age, in the last few years I've been shooting PRS type stuff at a local club, so it has not been babied in the crazy Montana weather.
I love me some Benelli shotguns too. I’ve seen that H20 model. Nice gun.
PB
Thanks PB, she’s a real beaut and is dead nuts reliable.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181123/e595ae84023954b87a20f241da9c3115.jpg
vicious_cb
11-25-18, 16:21
For those who have Sionics Np3 carrier, is the interior bore of the carrier chromed or NP3? Thats probably the place that will see the most wear with the gas rings constantly scraping the inside.
The interior of mine is NP3. It's also at least 1/2 gone at the forward portion, with less than 250 rounds fired. I didn't notice it at all the last time I cleaned it.
WMD Guns. That was their name when I used them. Don't know if they're still around. Hope not.
I had a similarly but not as terrible experience with WMD guns. Certainly never plan to use them again.
Is the coating on top of chrome lining? My Sionics NP3 bcg has 1587 rounds through it, no issues. I could take a picture if anyone would like, but it'll be limited by the Galaxy S7's camera.
Under mediocre lighting, I wasn't able to capture a good image, but it "seems" like it's chromed under the NP3.
I may pull out some additional gear tomorrow to try again.
The interior of mine is NP3. It's also at least 1/2 gone at the forward portion, with less than 250 rounds fired. I didn't notice it at all the last time I cleaned it.
How were you able to determine that?
How were you able to determine that?
I've seen that happen on NiB carriers from WMD. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens with NP3 carriers as well.
The carrier's NP3 has a slight gold color to it, which is obviously different from the chrome-looking color that appears to be below it. I can feel the edge between the NP3 with a relatively sharp pick, so it doesn't seem to just be polished.
https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e336/thegrizzman/Firearms/photo%202_zpsuon4oajd.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e336/thegrizzman/Firearms/photo%201_zps4phflvbt.jpg
Yes, I will be contacting Sionics.....now that I have photos.
Looks just like the Nickel Boron carriers that I've seen. I will be sticking with carriers that are chromed internally.
vicious_cb
11-26-18, 12:35
Thanks for the pics. I can't tell for sure but it doesnt look like chrome because it looks too shiny. Chrome plating, atleast the kind used inside of carriers, looks more like dull/matte grey. Kinda like this:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2652/1280/products/IMG_7640_1024x1024@2x.JPG?v=1519340908
Thanks for the pics. I can't tell for sure but it doesnt look like chrome because it looks too shiny. Chrome plating, atleast the kind used inside of carriers, looks more like dull/matte grey. Kinda like this:
Could it be from the gas rings? I know that you can polish chrome plating to give it a shiny finish.
Could it be from the gas rings? I know that you can polish chrome plating to give it a shiny finish.
The flaking area shown in the above pictures doesn't contact the gas rings.
Looks just like the Nickel Boron carriers that I've seen. I will be sticking with carriers that are chromed internally.
This is my only AR15 carrier that isn't phosphated and chrome lined. I doubt I will be getting any more.
This is my only AR15 carrier that isn't phosphated and chrome lined. I doubt I will be getting any more.
I was into NiB carriers at one point, but after I experienced the flaking I went back to phosphate and chrome.
How does your carrier look where it makes contact with the hammer? I've seen flaking on the hammer ramp on NiB carriers.
The hammer contact area is lightly polished, as are the receiver contact surfaces. All exterior surfaces look good.
Comparing NP3 to NiB shows a lack of understanding of the two processes and their differences. This has been addressed before in other threads.
As to the flaking. We changed vendors and as a result the newer carriers were not in the raw. The NP3 was applied over the hard chrome but it cannot adhere to it. What should have happened is that the inside of the carrier was supposed to be lightly polished inside and that would have removed the issue. Unfortunately this did not happen with a small number of carriers. Had someone contacted SIONICS (which I suspect did not happen) this would have been explained.
NP3 is not new, and ROBAR has been doing it for years. It's also been proven effective. We have guns in the hands of LE as well as demo guns with more rounds through them than any gun owner will likely shoot in their lifetime and there have been no issues.
Comparing NP3 to NiB shows a lack of understanding of the two processes and their differences. This has been addressed before in other threads.
As to the flaking. We changed vendors and as a result the newer carriers were not in the raw. The NP3 was applied over the hard chrome but it cannot adhere to it. What should have happened is that the inside of the carrier was supposed to be lightly polished inside and that would have removed the issue. Unfortunately this did not happen with a small number of carriers. Had someone contacted SIONICS (which I suspect did not happen) this would have been explained.
NP3 is not new, and ROBAR has been doing it for years. It's also been proven effective. We have guns in the hands of LE as well as demo guns with more rounds through them than any gun owner will likely shoot in their lifetime and there have been no issues.
So will newer SIONICS carriers be chromed internally, or NP3 only?
Bravo Sierra
12-03-18, 05:31
Slightly off subject but i have a dlc coated bcg. Ive never looked at the contact points but i will tonight. I recall trying to scratch it with keys, nails, an awl. No effect. The coating manufacturer is out of business, all i remember through some email exchanges is he told me that he was an oil guy and they use that coating on their oil drills in texas.
The new carriers will have the chrome inside, with the NP3 applied over.
So will newer SIONICS carriers be chromed internally, or NP3 only?
When I called Sionics, I was led to believe that the gas cylinder will continue to be chromed and that Robar is now plugging the carriers so that the gas chamber doesn't get NP3. He didn't mention roughing up the chrome to make the NP3 stick. He simply said that it won't adhere to chrome.
IndustrialHalo
12-05-18, 09:32
Will have to check inside my bcg to see which version I have. Not enough rounds to make a difference. I don't mind buying more sionics parts if it needs replaced eventually.
vicious_cb
12-10-18, 03:13
Here is a brand new, recent purchase NP3 bolt carrier straight from Sionics. Is this how the polished interior with chrome underneath is supposed to look like?
https://i.imgur.com/l8iEr7H.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EiKtIxD.jpg
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