View Full Version : Tactics and beer, seriously.
I have been considering this for some time. Am I willing to give up drinking to be "tactical" or "ready". If I go to bed with a belly full of beer, what use am I to my family if the wolf comes knocking?
Thoughts?
There are lots of good reasons not to use alcohol. There are few good reasons to do it. It was a simple decision for me.
All I need is for my wife to wake me up and point me in the right direction. :D
But if I seriously tie one on, I don't even get the rifle out of the safe.
KintlaLake
10-13-08, 13:46
Am I willing to give up drinking to be "tactical" or "ready"
Abstinence is an extreme -- and for you, Aray, it may well be a necessary extreme. If you're honest with yourself, you probably already have the answer to your question.
I suggest that alcohol isn't the point here -- what you want is the point. Once you name what you want, you'll be able to see what's getting in the way. If alcohol is in the way, make different choices -- and one of those choices is abstinence.
For me, beer isn't an issue -- but caffiene is in the way, big-time. ;)
Everything is a compromise.
I used to frequent bars all the time. Some of my more paranoid friends said things like "oh, I don't go to bars, I can't carry". Seemed like an easy decision for me, I wanted to go to the bar so I gave up carrying a gun while I was there.
Frankly I think that getting stupid sloppy falling down drunk while your family (meaning kids) is home is a bad idea on a lot of levels. However if I and the ole lady want to tie one on while the boy is away then I see no issue.
I am finding that my tolerance for alcohol, and my ability to recover from it, has dipped tremendously since my hard-drinking days. A belly full of non-greasy food, a huge glass of water before bed, and getting a fully 8 hours sleep afterwards are mandatory.
Littlelebowski
10-13-08, 13:54
It was far easier than I thought to quite a 6+ cup a day coffee habit, KL.
Moderation my friend, Moderation. " Drink little so you can drink long" author unknown
VooDoo6Actual
10-13-08, 15:08
Practice NOTHING to excess, including MODERATION...
KintlaLake
10-13-08, 19:05
It was far easier than I thought to quite a 6+ cup a day coffee habit, KL.
Amateur. :D
Actually, I've backed down to three coffees and a Coke (down from lord-knows-what). I've already got built-in tremors (thyroid), so every bit helps.
well, well... double-tap from mr. jitters. go figure!
I have been considering this for some time. Am I willing to give up drinking to be "tactical" or "ready". If I go to bed with a belly full of beer, what use am I to my family if the wolf comes knocking?
Thoughts?
Little to no use, IMHO. Imagine yourself if you were passed out and the wolf did blow the door down and make off with your family. Sometimes thinking through and imagining the possible outcomes helps a person temper their behavior.
Amateur. :D
Actually, I've backed down to three coffees and a Coke (down from lord-knows-what). I've already got built-in tremors (thyroid), so every bit helps.
I need to cut the caffeine too. I'm down to 3-5 diet coke's a day and 1-2 cups of coffee. That is under 300mg caffeine per day, but I was consuming over 1000mg a day. I quit cold turkey a month or two ago and had a severe, 3-day migraine. Not fun!!! I'm slowly finding out I can appreciate calm, cool and collected. Big switch for me...
telecustom
10-13-08, 20:39
I actually indulge in neither alcohol or caffeine for this exact reason. I don't like not being in complete control or have to rely on a chemical to make me feel right. Caffeine becomes a crutch and alcohol really effects your judgement. I am just not willing to take the chance of not being ready.
Alcohol has only two uses;
1) Sterilize
2) Drag Racing
1) Sterilize
nice! i guess that means i dont have to worry about kids anytime soon!
Patrick Aherne
10-13-08, 21:17
If you can't do it tired, sore, wet, cold, drunk, hung-over, etc.
I've often thought we should hold off-duty quals after a night of serious drinking or after a PAS of 0.04% BAC...
Jay Cunningham
10-13-08, 21:27
If you can't do it tired, sore, wet, cold, drunk, hung-over, etc.
I've often thought we should hold off-duty quals after a night of serious drinking or after a PAS of 0.04% BAC...
That is an interesting perspective - being tired impairs us just as being sick impairs us. I suppose one could argue that the drinking is directly controllable while the other variables aren't.
I have trained with John Farnam and he basically promotes quitting drinking alcohol altogether and being armed at all times... literally at all times. He never explicitly says to break the law but the implication is that once you decide to be armed it's your duty to make sure that it happens.
I must admit, living this way can be difficult. How about when you take a shower? How about when you are getting frisky with your wife or GF?
I happen to like to drink beer and wine, liquor not so much. As I get older and older I find less and less occasion to get shit-faced, however it still happens on occasion. If I plan on something like that then I leave the pistol at home.
If some moron breaks into your house after you just finished a half a bottle of scotch you are still within your rights to shoot him if you perceive a lethal threat - BAC notwithstanding. In the end, if you hit your target you will be much better off than if you miss - drunk or sober.
The bottom line is that it is a personal decision and you must live with the consequences. There is nothing bad that I can think of that would come from abstaining altogether, and lots of stupidity that comes from indulging.
That said, I don't plan on becoming teetotaler anytime soon.
Have trained with Farnam as well.............with this day and age, I agree with his philosophy. Just have to convince the wife/GF & get a waterproof gun!
Jay Cunningham
10-13-08, 21:45
Have trained with Farnam as well.............with this day and age, I agree with his philosophy. Just have to convince the wife/GF & get a waterproof gun!
My own philosophy is that I try to be armed and in Condition Yellow as much as I practically can be. I train and I practice and I keep myself in pretty good shape. I wrestled in high school and have trained in muay Thai so I have some idea how to defend myself HTH. It's a matter of controlling the variables that you can control. But I will not be like Leon the Professional, "sleeping" with my eyes open in a chair fully dressed with my gun on the night stand.
Leon the Pro.........that was a good movie..........
Yep, am the same way. Hoping to retire from LEO work in one piece. If I go anywhere, I have a gun somewhere within reach, but mostly for coyotes etc. I live just this side of Egypt, very rural, but still have the occasional fruit & nut that wanders thru.
KintlaLake
10-14-08, 05:35
I've often thought we should hold off-duty quals after a night of serious drinking or after a PAS of 0.04% BAC...
A couple of the motorcycle magazines have written about something similar -- they took a half-dozen staffers, ran them through M.O.S.T. (or equivalent) to establish a baseline score, served each subject a quantity of alcohol and had an LEO measure their BAC, then ran them through the course again.
Drink, blow, ride, repeat. Falling down was optional, but expected.
More than the degradation of motor skills, the loss of judgment and inhibition began to appear after the first dose. In the controlled setting, it was undeniably humorous -- until the reader realizes the implications for taking a buzz to the street.
Not a direct parallel to personal defense, but a useful one, I think.
Call me a pansy, but I never have even a single drink if I am (a) in possession of a firearm or (b) likely to be operating a motor vehicle within the next few hours.
Since I am almost always both (a) in possession of a firearm and (b) likely to be operating a motor vehicle within the next few hours, I basically never drink.
KintlaLake
10-14-08, 09:26
Call me a pansy...
Ok, Todd, you're a pansy.
By your measure, so am I. :cool:
MarshallDodge
10-14-08, 10:07
In my book firearms and alchohol don't mix.
A good shoot is a good shoot but what if you shot someone in self defense while intoxicated??
Pansy! On second thought, Todd would probably drop me before I cleared the holster... not sure what's pansy about that.
Still, just to make you guys feel better, I've never even had a beer. Who's the pansy now?
I think The_Katar nailed it with this:
The bottom line is that it is a personal decision and you must live with the consequences.
Do what you wanna do, just understand why and how it affects things.
I think The_Katar nailed it with this: "The bottom line is that it is a personal decision and you must live with the consequences."
Do what you wanna do, just understand why and how it affects things.
Those who find themselves serving as a leader, teacher, mentor...or parent... might consider the collateral effects of these decisions as well. They're usually deciding for more folks than they realize.
He who drinks beer sleeps well, he who sleeps cannot sin. He who cannot sin, goes to heaven=Amen--16th Century Monk
I'm sure it meant in moderation in order to insure function.
Amen--16th Century Monk
Ahhh... those trappist monk ales are good! Chimay Grande Reserve. :p
this is somewhat of a weird area for me. After shooting we will sit around & toss a few back while cleaning. However I have never been to the range or hunting with any beer in my system. That being said I do not take my by pistol with me when I know I might be drinking hard. But must confess that I have drank while carrying before. Sure one beer could effect me. I guess I would have to say just use common sence. If you know your going to get blasted leave the firearm behind
But must confess that I have drank while carrying before.
Same here. Hundreds of times. It's nothing but a thing. Drinking affects people differently though. Some people shouldn't drink at all... guns or no guns.
If it's a work day, I don't drink. If it's a workout day, I don't drink. That just about covers the whole week. Seriously though, I drank enough in my younger days to last a lifetime. Now that I have a family and career to look after, it ain't worth it.
Some people shouldn't drink at all... guns or no guns.
Too true
I thought this might get some traction and thanks for the responses. I cannot drink to excess and expect to keep my job the next day due to random breath tests. But this is a question that has started to gnaw at the outside of my thoughts.
If I am to be effective 1.5 hrs after bed when someone huffs and puffs, does it make sense to have that third or sixth beer?
I don't carry on a boys night out, but I also don't get to pick when the fight might happen.
I don't drink when I'm on the bike, but as some have mentioned, how does one know when he might have to perform?
Call me a pansy, but I never have even a single drink if I am (a) in possession of a firearm or (b) likely to be operating a motor vehicle within the next few hours.
Since I am almost always both (a) in possession of a firearm and (b) likely to be operating a motor vehicle within the next few hours, I basically never drink.
Nancy Boy!
I "came up" in an organization that was proud of the rumor that "60 minutes" said we were the greatest bunch of alcoholics they ever met, and tried to live up to the double A on their arm everyday. After awhile you take on the "work hard, play hard" attitude, and you and your peers start to measure a "man" by how much alcohol he can consume at one time, usually you out grow it before it gets you into to much trouble, sometimes not. having sais that....
I gave up drinking just over 6 years ago, after a doctor told me I should, due to something with my blood. It never really had to much to do with being an alchi, "being ready", etc.
It is a bit better of a life, I actually have a better time at the club, not worrying if I can drive, saying stupid stuff, Gary coleman can kick your ass when your drunk, and best of all, you go home with better lookin women, OK, I always went home with a good lookin woman, now I WAKE UP with one.
Add in work, with random drug and alcohol testing, regs that state specifically, that you can not consume alcohol 8 hours prior to work, regardless of a BAC, and the general "Q-tip up your ass", scrutinity me and my co-workers live under, I decided its simply easier not to drink.
Now, plenty of guys consume alot of alcohol, and remain in shape and "ready", and I harbor no ill toward them or alcohol it self, though it is fun to watch sometimes. I think the whole "I need to be ready, 24/7" argument is a little over the top. No one can live in condition yellow 100% of the time, period. The key is to find away, to be able to relax, in safety. If that means getting drunk, so be it, but you gotta have a system.
Bob
threeheadeddog
10-15-08, 19:26
This is an interesting subject for me.
My parents divorced when I was very young and I have had 2 dads since then.
My real dad was a heavy drinker from a heavy drinking family and had a big influence on my drinking habits.
My step dad NEVER drank untill i was in high school as he didnt want to be a bad influence. About the time I turned 16 my step-dads doctor told him something to the effect that he should have a drink regularly to help him control his stress levels(which was/is a problem in his family). He now drinks no more than 1 beer a day and often doenst at all.
I never drank until I reached 21 and have never been "drunk". I will have a jack and coke occasionally. Sometimes its 2-4 a week sometimes its one every 2 months. I wouldnt have a problem abstaining but I do think it helps me calm down after a bad day. I also dont ever think I get to the point where my dextarity is hindered noticably but of course that is hard to see on the inside looking out. I also dont drink when I am out and carrying but sometimes i find that I had a drink when I got home than had to go out.
Because of my families alchohal abuse history this is something I think of and try and avoid often, in fact I probably worry about it to an unhealthy level as my drinking habits are what I consider just shy of none at all. Is this something that a responsible carrying individule should abstain from?
Sorry another long post and as always srry about the bad spelling if there are errors
Same here. Hundreds of times. It's nothing but a thing. Drinking affects people differently though. Some people shouldn't drink at all... guns or no guns.
Well said
Ahhh... those trappist monk ales are good! Chimay Grande Reserve. :p
I knew I liked you.
Gun Runner
10-18-08, 11:22
May I add that alcohol does not change the 4 rules of firearms safety?
Know your limits, exercise good judgement, and err on the side of caution.
May I add that alcohol does not change the 4 rules of firearms safety?
Know your limits, exercise good judgement, and err on the side of caution.
Absolutely.
I watched the effects of drug and alcohol abuse first hand with my brother while i was growing up.
Since then i very rarely drink. Im talking, maybe once or twice a year. I dont like not being in control at all times. Perhaps this is a good enough reason for me TO drink but quite frankly, i dont see any real benefits from alcohol that cant be achieved through some other means.
Yes, im aware that there are some physical benefits to extremely moderate drinking but again, i can get those benefits in other areas, namely healthy eating and exercise.
I have no qualms with anyone drinking. I do however take issue with people who drink just to get drunk. Its destructive behavior and i personally dont like being around it.
I think in the end, like everyone its up to the individual to find the proper balance for themselves. If you can knock back a few and rest easy without any negative affects then by all means, if thats your chosen lifestyle, go for it.
If you're a lightweight like me and alcohol affects you rather quickly and inhibits basic motor controls then maybe in the name of safety, you should kick the habit and go do other things with your time.
I dont feel that a couple beers a night will do much harm, but if you go to bed retarded a lot I would suggest cutting down on beer a bit.:D
I think it would be very informative to perform testing on this.
Get a handful of people with varying drinking habits (from "I rarely/never drink" to "I drink every day"). Get a handful of SimFX guns. Use the Sims primarily out of responsibility and liability in case someone really gets loopy and does something intensely stupid when drunk. I know, I know, who would ever do something stupid just because he was drunk? :D
Set up a fundamentals test to track speed/accuracy. Have everyone shoot it sober, after one drink, two drinks, etc.
Set up a judgmental shooting test (FOF would be better but harder to keep 100% standardized). Have everyone shoot it sober, after one drink, two drinks, etc.
Much like driving, I suspect that most people will see a greater degree of impairment earlier on than they suspect.
Ford Prefect: "It’s unpleasantly like being drunk."
Arthur Dent: "What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?"
Ford: "You ask a glass of water."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Chapter Six
Jay Cunningham
10-23-08, 15:05
I volunteer to be a test subject!
:D
I'm not giving up these:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:qV6wl5VHhqALLM:http://www.cocktailtimes.com/original/jose_clasico/top_invisible.jpg
GT RALLY!
In all seriousness I might have one or two drinks a month and it's always either at home at the end of the day or if I know for a fact I won't be driving or carrying.
I volunteer to be a test subject!
:D
Sounds like it should be in Pittsburgh, I'm in.
Medicine Calf
10-24-08, 10:53
Used to be a heavy drinker but once I cut back my tolerance went out the window, and with that also went my desire to drink heavily. At this point my intake is moderate, but I still have the souvenirs.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1315/snapshot20081016055623ic4.png (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20081016055623ic4.png)
Sounds like it should be in Pittsburgh, I'm in.
In all seriousness, if someone can find a range that will let us do it, I'm in.
I can provide the drills, Sim guns, Sim FX ammo, and targets. Someone else is going to have to pay for all the booze, though. :cool:
RogerinTPA
10-24-08, 12:12
Concealed carry/Driving + Alcohol don't mix. I don't even drink during the week and maybe on the weekend. But....back in the day, I did shoot my best 1000 yard/meter scores hung over.:D
In all seriousness, if someone can find a range that will let us do it, I'm in.
I can provide the drills, Sim guns, Sim FX ammo, and targets. Someone else is going to have to pay for all the booze, though. :cool:
I'll get on it. What kind of facilities do we need Todd? Booze won't be a problem, keep the class size under 10 and I'm buyin'. I have a 2 clubs in mind. Hell, if we're using sim guns, hell we could do it at my house.
We would need a legitimate firing range where we can set up normal targets and shoot at them from 7yd away. If we're doing it in Pittsburgh in the winter, it will probably need to be an indoor range. Most importantly, the people who own/run the range will need to be briefed on exactly what we're doing since we will be handling real firearms (albeit Sim guns) while under the influence of alcohol.
Everyone will have to clear any real live weapons before stepping onto the range, and will need to be wanded/searched if they leave & return. We'll treat it just like a Sim training scenario from that standpoint.
I don't think we need ten people. I'd say five would give us decent data.
5 in fact should be enough, but if you get 10, you could throw in another variable - caffeine, for example.
I'd love to volunteer, but I am just too far away.
I think it would be very informative to perform testing on this.
Get a handful of people with varying drinking habits (from "I rarely/never drink" to "I drink every day"). Get a handful of SimFX guns. Use the Sims primarily out of responsibility and liability in case someone really gets loopy and does something intensely stupid when drunk. I know, I know, who would ever do something stupid just because he was drunk? :D
Set up a fundamentals test to track speed/accuracy. Have everyone shoot it sober, after one drink, two drinks, etc.
Set up a judgmental shooting test (FOF would be better but harder to keep 100% standardized). Have everyone shoot it sober, after one drink, two drinks, etc.
Much like driving, I suspect that most people will see a greater degree of impairment earlier on than they suspect.
Ever see that episode of WKRP in Cinncinatti with Johnny Fever taking the sobriety test? ;)
Ever see that episode of WKRP in Cinncinatti with Johnny Fever taking the sobriety test? ;)
WKRP wasn't really the kind of show I watched religiously when I was 10 ... :cool:
You need to drink and shoot, try it.
Todd,
Years ago, a fellow NCO of mine, relayed a story, about a test he had taken part of, while stationed in Germany.
A driving course had been set up, with orange cones. Participants drove the course sober, then drank one drink, and drove the course, a repeated this, evaluating how the driving got progressively worse.
Of course, the evaluators were stumped/amazed as said NCO, proceeded to down beer after beer, and mixed drink after mixed drink, with no adverse affect on his driving ability.
Of course this doesn't mean much, but its pretty funny, and re-enforces why, you still need to go to court for a DUI, and they must prove you were impaired, not just "over the legal limit".
Bob
I've experienced an appreciation in function on certain skilled behaviors when drinking.
I don't do this anymore, but when I was younger, I'd go out and shoot pool and have a few beers. After the first 3-5 sasperillas I'd actually shoot noteably better because I was relaxed. No tension in the shots.
Of course there's a point of diminishing returns with this.... just like anything else in life.
I might try this experiment with rifle one of these days. Shoot a group, down a beer, repeat.
rangertab1
10-27-08, 12:09
My warrior-dogs pull security while i'm sleeping, whether i'm drunk or sober. I don't know anyone asleep that can see it coming, so we should all have a perimeter gaurd to cover us each nite. I trust them with security more than any man, especially my beautiful WOman. Alcohol want we around in the next few years anyway, unless you brew your own.
Infamous Quote Throughout War's History:
DRINK TODAY, FOR TOMORROW WE FIGHT!
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