View Full Version : AmTrak Derailment in Washington State
Best info I have is...
New section of track. 14 miles but derailment may not be in new section
First day of service
Running 81mph into first major turn.
Cars partially dropped to highway below in rush hour.
250 passengers ... 75 of which were in derailed cars.
Police reporting injuries and casualties no numbers.
Weather not conducive to flying for rescue
Auto and Train car impacts on highway
ETA:
Train was tested at high speed but can't be tested at full loaded weight.
Train had Positive speed control which can regulate braking.
In this photo the engine is about two more cars to the right. Other pictures I've seen on TV actually look worse than this.
http://static-14.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/d8311cb2-bbc9-4cd0-9185-cabcf5564ff7-large16x9_AMTRAKDERAILMENT.JPG?1513614308745
Yep. Crazy. I know our birds would be flying if they could.
Why is it that we as a country can't get basics shit like this together. Europ has high speed trains that have no problem going faster than this and not derailing.
I would love to know how fast the freight trains were typically moving on the same section of track before Amtrak claimed it was suitable for high speed commuter.
I would love to know how fast the freight trains were typically moving on the same section of track before Amtrak claimed it was suitable for high speed commuter.
From what I have read, this was a bypass section of track that wasn't used normally as a main line, but was recently retrofitted with new rail on an old bridge. This route was suggested because it would relieve congestion on the mainline and cut 10 minutes off the commute. The linked article says 80 mph, so who knows.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/derailment-occurred-along-new-181m-rail-corridor/
Coal Dragger
12-18-17, 17:16
Kwelz:
Well as an employee of the 2nd largest RR in North America that answer is easy:
Because US RR’s don’t give two ****s about passenger service, or anything that doesn’t improve their profits.
They don’t care about their employees.
They don’t care about their customers.
In fact employees and customers are their two favorite groups to cheat out of money, steal from when possible, and blame things on whenever convenient.
They sure as hell could care less about the general public.
Grade crossing safety? Costs too much money.
Proactive information sharing of manifest with first responders for hazmat? Go **** yourselves, that information could give the competition a leg up. Probably costs money too.
Adequately crew trains so they can be operated safely and secured properly? Nope, doing everything they can to eliminate employees. Employees cost money.
Install Positive Train Control per federal law? Drag our feet, and ask for waivers, the lawyers cost less money.
Provide crews with a predictable work schedule so they are rested and alert when they report for duty? **** those filthy animals! Deny all their requests for time off too! Having adequate staffing and powering up trains to run a schedule costs money!
Maintain track to a high standard so there are no slow orders, and fix slow orders promptly? Yeah that costs money, just put the slow orders in the GTB’s, if shit goes wrong blame the train crew.
All they care about is their stock price, and their executive bonuses. If whoring out their wives, mothers, and daughters improved either of those two goals, they’d do it without a second thought.
Diamondback
12-18-17, 17:22
Why is it that we as a country can't get basics shit like this together. Europ has high speed trains that have no problem going faster than this and not derailing.
America USED to... back when my ancestors were working for the Vanderbilts, they were doing 85, 90, 100 DAILY and SAFELY--and that was with no-electronics STEAM ERA technology on the New York Central. (Admittedly, NYC was the "Water Level Route," four tracks of only-broad-curves flatland running from Grand Central and Boston to Chicago and St. Louis other than West Albany Hill and the Berkshires, but...)
Coal Dragger: Just when I start to entertain thoughts of trying to follow in my ancestors' footsteps and break back into the industry long enough to pay for my degree... it sounds like if we could summon the old Commodore back from the grave he'd be an IMPROVEMENT over "modern" management. :(
Dist. Expert 26
12-18-17, 17:41
I'm glad Norfolk Southern never called me when I applied last year. That sounds even worse than the casino industry, and I didn't think that was possible.
Kwelz:
Lots of good info!
Great info. I do love hearing insider info.
Coal dragger does present a very strong argument to avoid the RR business. Damn...
Coal Dragger
12-18-17, 18:10
I'm glad Norfolk Southern never called me when I applied last year. That sounds even worse than the casino industry, and I didn't think that was possible.
Money is still pretty damn good, retirement is pretty good, benefits are still solid. For example our son is on formula now, and we bought a 90 day supply for $90.00 flat with shipping due to our insurance. Pediatrician was floored when we told her we needed a prescription for formula, insisted insurance doesn’t cover it. Whatever doc, just write the damn scrip.
I just wish that upper level management would stop trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. We’re going through a phase at work where they forgot the failures last time they tried all this dumb shit, and think it is new and will work.
Coal Dragger
12-18-17, 18:18
America USED to... back when my ancestors were working for the Vanderbilts, they were doing 85, 90, 100 DAILY and SAFELY--and that was with no-electronics STEAM ERA technology on the New York Central. (Admittedly, NYC was the "Water Level Route," four tracks of only-broad-curves flatland running from Grand Central and Boston to Chicago and St. Louis other than West Albany Hill and the Berkshires, but...)
Coal Dragger: Just when I start to entertain thoughts of trying to follow in my ancestors' footsteps and break back into the industry long enough to pay for my degree... it sounds like if we could summon the old Commodore back from the grave he'd be an IMPROVEMENT over "modern" management. :(
Don’t kid yourself about old school RR management either. They were shit heels too.
US RR’s have a long history of abusive management, poor employee safety standards, and recalcitrance in making safety or employee welfare a priority. This is an ingrained culture tempered only by their desire to avoid legal liability. So they provide a “show” or facade about safety. Waste money having meetings, but not doing anything, all so they can show in court or to regulators that they are trying. However time and time again when confronted with the decision to do the stand up thing or the cheap thing... cheap wins every time.
Any truth to the Antifa as suspects angle? http://revolutionradio.org/2017/12/18/panicked-antifa-website-deletes-article-about-sabotaging-train-tracks-in-olympia-after-derailment-read-it-here/
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I would love to know how fast the freight trains were typically moving on the same section of track before Amtrak claimed it was suitable for high speed commuter.
It was new track, but I'm going to venture a guess it was Class 4 track. 60mph freight / 80mph Passenger. The reason I speculate that is because this morning someone reported the last known speed was 81 mph for that train. then they also ran test runs up to 79mph. Also news began to report that the train derailed "approaching speeds near 80mph". So it seems they want to present the facts as that train was going no more than 80mph. The only reason I can think of is that the track is rated for 80. Which might be the CYA speed in this case.
Any truth to the Antifa as suspects angle?
That would not seem reasonable to me. It was a new section of basically passenger track and it was the target for a DOT camera. Plus the RR would/should have been on high alert for something like that if they had already been doing such things.
I would think if that was ANTIFA then they have officially stepped up their game to be classified as a legit terrorist org. Trying to derail a train on a bridge is pretty tough to see as anything but attempted murder.
Update:
Curve where Amtrak train derailed in Washington has speed limit of 30 mph
But.. the engine hasn't even made it to the curve. I wonder if a derailment like that would be caused by getting heavy on the brakes too late? they said the last speed was 80+/-... and it's supposed to drop to 30 for that turn? that's quite a change. I didn't think trains were that agile.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/curve-where-amtrak-train-derailed-in-washington-has-speed-limit-of-30-mph/
HardToHandle
12-18-17, 20:52
Money is still pretty damn good, retirement is pretty good, benefits are still solid. For example our son is on formula now, and we bought a 90 day supply for $90.00 flat with shipping due to our insurance. Pediatrician was floored when we told her we needed a prescription for formula, insisted insurance doesn’t cover it. Whatever doc, just write the damn scrip.
I just wish that upper level management would stop trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. We’re going through a phase at work where they forgot the failures last time they tried all this dumb shit, and think it is new and will work.
Coal Dragger - does Positive Train Control add any real world safety value to rail?
Nightvisionary
12-18-17, 21:05
Kwelz:
Well as an employee of the 2nd largest RR in North America that answer is easy:
Because US RR’s don’t give two ****s about passenger service, or anything that doesn’t improve their profits.
They don’t care about their employees.
They don’t care about their customers.
In fact employees and customers are their two favorite groups to cheat out of money, steal from when possible, and blame things on whenever convenient.
They sure as hell could care less about the general public.
Grade crossing safety? Costs too much money.
Proactive information sharing of manifest with first responders for hazmat? Go **** yourselves, that information could give the competition a leg up. Probably costs money too.
Adequately crew trains so they can be operated safely and secured properly? Nope, doing everything they can to eliminate employees. Employees cost money.
Install Positive Train Control per federal law? Drag our feet, and ask for waivers, the lawyers cost less money.
Provide crews with a predictable work schedule so they are rested and alert when they report for duty? **** those filthy animals! Deny all their requests for time off too! Having adequate staffing and powering up trains to run a schedule costs money!
Maintain track to a high standard so there are no slow orders, and fix slow orders promptly? Yeah that costs money, just put the slow orders in the GTB’s, if shit goes wrong blame the train crew.
All they care about is their stock price, and their executive bonuses. If whoring out their wives, mothers, and daughters improved either of those two goals, they’d do it without a second thought.
I worked in train service for Union Pacific for a couple years before the big recession. Everything that Coal Dragger wrote is 199% true.
Coal Dragger
12-18-17, 21:25
Coal Dragger - does Positive Train Control add any real world safety value to rail?
Sort of.
I worked with PTC a bit last year when I was traveling for work. My normal route doesn’t have it installed or activated yet.
PTC does little to solve the most common causes of service interruptions and derailments. Which is to say PTC can’t fix track that is jacked up, wheels that are cracked, switch points that aren’t in good shape etc. Mechanical defects with rolling stock or track are the leading causes of serious derailments.
PTC does a pretty good job of looking out for keeping the train under speed control for normal track speed and slow orders, and within authority limits. Authority limits are the big deal, when you exceed your limits, be it signals, or track warrants you tend to run a high risk of crashing into shit. That’s why the RR will fire your ass for a couple months the first time you have an authority violation. Have another one within a few years and you’re gone permanently. As a safety overlay PTC is helpful in this regard.
I despise how it is programmed in regards to insisting that action be taken on my part as the engineer. Whoever programmed the system is terrified of the equipment and has it dumbed down to Barney levels of operating performance. Like creeping up to a stop signal or risk the PTC applying the train brakes in penalty even though I know for a fact I can stop from a much higher speed with a minimum brake application. Combine PTC with a fuel economy optimization program and you are baby sitting a total turd of train that can barely get out of its own way. The RR doesn’t give a shit about running on time though, so I guess I don’t either.
PTC is of no benefit on unmapped track like you find in industries, mines, or rail yards. Ironically these are the highest risk tracks because lots of stuff goes on in these places, switches are not always lined, derails are in derailing position etc. So it’s still on the crew to operate slow enough to stop short of: trains, engines, rail cars, men working, switches lined improperly, and derails.
Coal Dragger
12-18-17, 21:38
That would not seem reasonable to me. It was a new section of basically passenger track and it was the target for a DOT camera. Plus the RR would/should have been on high alert for something like that if they had already been doing such things.
I would think if that was ANTIFA then they have officially stepped up their game to be classified as a legit terrorist org. Trying to derail a train on a bridge is pretty tough to see as anything but attempted murder.
Update:
But.. the engine hasn't even made it to the curve. I wonder if a derailment like that would be caused by getting heavy on the brakes too late? they said the last speed was 80+/-... and it's supposed to drop to 30 for that turn? that's quite a change. I didn't think trains were that agile.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/curve-where-amtrak-train-derailed-in-washington-has-speed-limit-of-30-mph/
Heavy brake application is probably not an issue in this case. Not sure what Amtrak protocol is for train handling but it’s unlikely the engineer was exclusively using heavy dynamic braking to slow his train. Even if he were with a locomotive up front and one more in distributed power, there is simply not enough dynamic braking force to pop a car off the rail. I’ve seen it happen with 4 big freight locomotives, but they make a lot more tractive effort than passenger train locomotives in both power and dynamic. Plus the instance I observed the train was built improperly with lots of tonnage on back and empty cars right next to the locomotives.
There is a remote chance that even in heavy dynamic the train could put enough stress on the rail, particularly in a curve, that track damage could occur. Virtually impossible with a train that light and without multiple units on the point in heavy dynamic braking.
Operating with a blend of train air brakes and dynamic brakes, there’s not much stress put on the track. If the engineer was stretch braking even less. Stretch braking is staying in power, setting the train air brakes, bailing off the brake cylinder pressure on locomotives only, and decelerating or holding speed while keeping the train stretched as taught as a bow string. Very effective and smooth. Plus the locomotives are already revved up to pull so when it’s time to get up to speed again just kick the train brakes off. RR’s hate this because it costs money in fuel and brake shoes. They prefer that we bang shit around with dynamic, and use air brakes only when absolutely needed.
So I make it a point to stretch brake at every possible opportunity. Screw their bonuses. They always screw me on mine!
You sound like a cool dude CD. Good stuff.
I just saw another picture. In my photo above where I said the engine was on the right. that is correct but that is the rear engine aiming the opposite direction of travel.
The front of the train hit that curve and just ran right off the tracks. Just basic old centrifugal force. In the photo the direction of travel is right to left and there are a lot of cars on the other side of the tracks. What we see is actually just the last few cars bunched up. Actually I say the engine ran off but maybe it was cars after the engine, but at any rate it makes a lot more sense now. Too much speed in the turn.
Coal Dragger
12-19-17, 01:29
If that is the case that is a complete and total PTC failure.
Heads are gonna roll if that train was doing 80MPH in a permanent slow. Now they can fire a crew and some PTC officials. OK, who am I kidding, they won’t fire any company officials. They only fire train crews.
Coal Dragger
12-19-17, 01:44
No PTC cut in on that new route. Costs money. Drag feet, save money.
I hear engineers on that route didn’t like the 30 MPH permanent slow and the flagging for it. Standard is 2 miles in advance, which is OK most of the time. However, on a brand new route that crews are barely familiar with I’d call it reckless. Particularly since the flags for permanent slows are not very big.
I’d also be willing to bet $1 that the Amtrak crews were not afforded more than 1-2 runs over that track to familiarize. Costs money. That is not nearly enough, especially for an engineer who will be high balling it on a passenger train. A freight crew could just dick the dog and go slow the whole way on track they’re not comfortable with yet. I’ll bet Amtrak doesn’t allow that.
Coal dragger has predicted it. It looks to be true. Excessive speed. No PTC. Get ready to catch the heads...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/19/amtrak-train-was-traveling-at-80-mph-in-30-mph-zone-ntsb-says.html
Whiskey_Bravo
12-19-17, 06:49
Billed as a high speed AmTrak. Has to slow down to 30mph. Hot damn we are way behind.
So I read that there was a brand new >$800 million "improvement" to shave 10 minutes off a specific trip? And the train was going >40 mph over the listed acceptable speed for the track?
Awful.
Whiskey_Bravo
12-19-17, 07:53
Yeah, there is something seriously wrong if on the very first run with passengers they were going 80mph in a 30 zone. How does that happen?
So I read that there was a brand new >$800 million "improvement" to shave 10 minutes off a specific trip? And the train was going >40 mph over the listed acceptable speed for the track?
Awful.
Sounds like they pocketed $799,999,980 and gave the engineer a $20 tip to go faster and save the 10 minutes.
WTF?! How do you spend $800MM for a 10 minute saving. Your tax dollars at work.
So when do the nationalization hearings start?
Where are you guys reading 800 million??
It was 180 million.
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It is not exactly new route.
It is a old route not being used any more , being repurposed.
Sounds like they have been running lots of test runs.
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It is not exactly new route.
It is a old route not being used any more , being repurposed.
Sounds like they have been running lots of test runs.
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But not with passenger weight. ... and I doubt the test runs hit 80 in a 30 zone. If they did, they are nuts.
But not with passenger weight. ... and I doubt the test runs hit 80 in a 30 zone. If they did, they are nuts.Well when the media rode on Friday, they didn't say what speed they doing, but said they definitely wasn't doing 30 in that section.
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Billed as a high speed AmTrak. Has to slow down to 30mph. Hot damn we are way behind.
That's what the politicians were pushing for the east coast DC down through Richmond. No place to get up to speed before the next stop but what the hell. Eric Cantor was deep into that. I think that is part of what got him canned to a TeaParty guy.
From what I understand that run in WA is also a 20 minute car drive. So even if it had worked what were they talking about 18 minutes vs 20? Sounds like somebody missed the UberBus opportunity.
From what I understand that run in WA is also a 20 minute car drive. So even if it had worked what were they talking about 18 minutes vs 20? Sounds like somebody missed the UberBus opportunity.
referring to the whole route??
It is suppose to run from Tacoma to Portland. Couple hours in a car.
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Latest reports speculate it could be engineer distraction. He had a conductor in training up there with him for orientation. Supposedly engineers get an "employee timeline" listing the speed they should be going at every single point of the track. How in the hell can an engineer not pay attention for a few hours? Especially for drastic speed reduction areas? PTC is supposed to be a backstop to the engineer paying attention. From what I have heard the engineers get pretty decent pay/benefits. And they can't be bothered to pay attention while on the job?
Southbound I-5 there is blocked at least for several days and no firm date for clearance given. The alternate routes are reported as being jam packed. I can't imagine the number of semi trucks using those two lane rural highways. Even the DOT is recommending a route that reverses up north through Bremerton, Hood Canal bridge and back south through Shelton: 65 mile detour on twisting hilly 2-lane road. Put a hundred semis on that route and it would be hell. A thousand?! The more direct rout through Yelm is much shorter but I am sure that is where most truckers are going. Flatter and straighter but still 2-lanes.
referring to the whole route??
It is suppose to run from Tacoma to Portland. Couple hours in a car.
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Oh, ok, that at least makes sense. they must have been talking about just the new section.
The news just reported that PTC was in place but not operational. Braking was initiated as the accident occurred and not beforehand.
I would agree with others. What sense does it make on a maiden voyage to not be paying attention. 50mph over speed limit. I mean how could you do that? How could you get -that- distracted on such a special day when you had news crews and everything else going on. It seems like everyone would have been on a heightened cautionary state.
The "you better make that 10 min savings" from the top might have been factor as well.
Crow Hunter
12-20-17, 12:45
Latest reports speculate it could be engineer distraction. He had a conductor in training up there with him for orientation. Supposedly engineers get an "employee timeline" listing the speed they should be going at every single point of the track. How in the hell can an engineer not pay attention for a few hours? Especially for drastic speed reduction areas? PTC is supposed to be a backstop to the engineer paying attention. From what I have heard the engineers get pretty decent pay/benefits. And they can't be bothered to pay attention while on the job?
Southbound I-5 there is blocked at least for several days and no firm date for clearance given. The alternate routes are reported as being jam packed. I can't imagine the number of semi trucks using those two lane rural highways. Even the DOT is recommending a route that reverses up north through Bremerton, Hood Canal bridge and back south through Shelton: 65 mile detour on twisting hilly 2-lane road. Put a hundred semis on that route and it would be hell. A thousand?! The more direct rout through Yelm is much shorter but I am sure that is where most truckers are going. Flatter and straighter but still 2-lanes.
My brother used to be a freight engineer for CSX.
He said it was most likely distraction error on the part of the engineer.
He said that all railroads follow the same FRA rules and the engineer should have received a timetable that lists ALL the speed zones and on top of that there are signs all along the track that remind them that they are supposed to monitor and note and reduce speed accordingly. That timetable is the "lifeblood" of the operation. You have to be at marker A by XX:XX and B by XX:XX+10 min and etc. if you aren't, the next train could be on the track instead of a siding when you come through. So missing your markers is bad juju so they pay very close attention and if they are in "dark territory" they have to radio in their position to dispatch so they can plot all the train positions. If they aren't in "dark territory" the trains are monitored and tracked.
On top of that, he said Amtrack trains will "stop on a dime" because they don't weigh that much (compared to freight) and they have the same engines/brakes as a freight train. And if he had been paying attention he would have known he was going too fast and he should have had plenty of time to blow the brakes.
They do get great benefits and pay but have a terrible work schedule and it is very common to have trainees on board. They call it "cubbing" and that is how they apprentice and learn how to run the trains and how each track works. There is quite a bit of skill/art to running a train, especially in hilly/curvy terrain. You have to play with the engine/brakes to make sure that you don't cause the slack to "rubber band" and that takes a bunch of skill/experience. That is in freight where you just don't want to tear up stuff, jostling paying customers back and forth is probably even more skill.
Coal Dragger
12-20-17, 13:01
The speed signs are posted only two miles advance, and they’re only a bit larger than a sign indicating a whistle crossing.
At 80 MPH depending on what that territory looks like, what sight lines are like etc, it would be really easy to miss that little yellow diagonal warning sign if you’re slightly distracted. They don’t stand out.
While I know they are there I rarely notice them on my route, but I know the territory very well. Terrain association.... if you don’t have it running a good train is tough to do. You have to know exactly where you are all the time in order to run well, keeping in mind what is ahead of you and behind you. What is your train doing back there, if you can’t figure out what your train is doing based on track profile, curves etc, then you are going to have some bad train handling or worse. I’ve been doing the engineer job now for the majority of my career, and still get trains that surprise me or handle strangely based on how they are made up. Despite the fact that I can draw, from memory, a pretty good grade chart of my entire run.
Given that this was new track and crews that were minimally familiar I can see how this happened.
Heard another update that contradicted teh News guy... surprise....
No PTC but had "CTC?" anyway location reporting but not speed control.
Coal Dragger
12-20-17, 15:25
CTC has no control over train speed or much of anything else if the engineer ignores it.
CTC is just a block signal control system that grants authority via signals like traffic lights, controlled at absolute signals by Dispatch. Intermediate signals between control points will indicate if the block ahead is clear, if you are running up someone’s ass, if you are lined up to stop, take a turn out, or enter a restricted speed area (restricted speed being as defined by GCOR 6.27 or GCOR 6.28) like a yard, or industry typically also exiting CTC at that point.
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