View Full Version : putting my AR on diet
So after waiting on the cops for 45 mins, while holding someone that trespassed on my property several times at gun point till the cops arrived. I have come to the conclusion that my AR needs to loose some weight. I think most of my weight is probably in the barrel. I have Spikes 16" M4 profile barrel. Is there a lighter profile I could go without loosing accuracy and barrel life. I shoot about 300 or 400 rounds every other weekend and shoot at a local 3 gun once a month. this gun is my go to rifle for home defense, target practice, and 3 gun.
First and foremost, welcome to M4C, hope you find the community compatible.
Kudos on your experience, sounds like a hell of a situation. Adjustable slings go a long way too, in case you don't have one on there already.
Many will say that if you're not putting a can on it, or looking for the highest grade accuracy, there are some really light options to go with.
Now, "Combat Grade" or Military Spec and such probably won't be on that list as it's not a Government, HBAR, or other approved profiles.
Nonetheless, I am sure you can find barrels that will perform extremely well, and feel balanced. If you really want a light rifle, go the pistol or SBR route. I could hold my 10.5 for a long time based on the balancing alone.
The 16" barrel is all about a profile that balances well. Weight on the receiver end versus muzzle end. BCM makes some interesting options. IIRC their ELW has a profiled barrel. Faxon has some good options where the weight is heavier at the receiver and lighter out on the end.
I recall someone getting way in depth about physics and swing weight and such last time this came up, but makes interesting discussion.
Will try to find some links of options.
https://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-BRL-MID-16-ELW-STD-2T.jpg?1456827038
BCM ELW (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Barrel-ENHANCED-LIGHT-WEIGHT-p/bcm-brl-mid-16-elw-std.htm)
Check these out. I recommend the mid length gas system.
https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels.html?barrel_profile=41&caliber=6
https://danieldefense.com/16-5-56mm-mid-length-1-7-lw-profile.html
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/2d8697aab5282a6df5e324082bb1ef37.jpg
BCM's ELW with KMR rail is prime for low weight. You could scoop up just the upper itself. But if you shoot that much, it couldn't hurt to have multiple ARs.
Might a good sling be worth checking out? You didn't say if you had one or not.
So after waiting on the cops for 45 mins, while holding someone that trespassed on my property several times at gun point till the cops arrived. I have come to the conclusion that my AR needs to loose some weight. I think most of my weight is probably in the barrel. I have Spikes 16" M4 profile barrel. Is there a lighter profile I could go without loosing accuracy and barrel life. I shoot about 300 or 400 rounds every other weekend and shoot at a local 3 gun once a month. this gun is my go to rifle for home defense, target practice, and 3 gun.
What hanguard are you running? The ELW KMR uppers are super light. You say 3 gun... is it scoped? How much does your rifle weigh now?
First thing to do is see how heavy your furniture and accessories are. It does no good to lighten the barrel if your buttstock is heavy or if the rifle has an overweight optic.
It also does no good to lighten the rifle if it does not have a sling.
I have both an 11.5 and 16" BCM ELW barreled uppers with KMR-A handguards. They are great and have proven plenty accurate while still being lightweight. The 16" ELW BFH Midlength chugged along fine for a day-long, 600rds carbine course. The 11.5 is the ELW flutted version and it does great with or without my Saker 556K.
And of course a good sling helps out in situations like the OP described, even with lighter rifles.
Since you mentioned 3-gun, specifically, I'd recommend taking a look at the Ballistic Advantage Hanson-series in as short of of a length you feel comfortable with.
At your round count, chrome-lined hammer-forged by any of the reputable folks (e.g. FN, BCM, DD) is also going to be an attractive sure bet; just avoid the .gov profile cut.
So after waiting on the cops for 45 mins, while holding someone that trespassed on my property several times at gun point till the cops arrived. I have come to the conclusion that my AR needs to loose some weight. I think most of my weight is probably in the barrel. I have Spikes 16" M4 profile barrel. Is there a lighter profile I could go without loosing accuracy and barrel life. I shoot about 300 or 400 rounds every other weekend and shoot at a local 3 gun once a month. this gun is my go to rifle for home defense, target practice, and 3 gun.
Have you actually weighed the gun? Like others have said, most of the weight that can be dealt with is in the barrel, furniture, or optic/mount.
Dont take this the wrong way but do you have a good sling?
I too have held folks at rifle point and a good sling makes a world of difference.
Holding anything outstretched for too long will wear you down.
if possible (key word possible) sling and go to a pistol if it is just too much depending on age and fitness.
Just keep a healthy enough distance.
45 mins can be an eon.
16" m4 profile is 1lb 12oz in BCMs model and I bet all are about the same. Bcm elw 16 is 1lb 6oz. Half a pound will make a difference, but not much, especially over a long time. As others have said, take some of that weight off your arms and grab a sling. Even holding just your support arm out in the position you hold your rifle will bring fatigue after a few minutes. The human body is much stronger vertically than horizontally. Keeping more weight near your center of gravity will be much easier to bear than anywhere else, and across your shoulders is about the best you can do with a firearm.
QuickStrike
01-03-18, 15:55
I will parrot the sling idea. A quality padded 2 point sling.
A guy can tighten it and still wave the carbine about from the hip/low torso area VERY menacingly. Maybe even while using the phone with the support hand if the tresspasser isn’t too close.
Just keep a healthy enough distance.
45 mins can be an eon.
Mosdef
Ahhhhh. The sling and exercise solution..so simple. An M4ish carbine shouldn't be much more than 7.5 lbs. unloaded, maybe 8 lbs. loaded. But holding that at your shoulder for 45 mins. would probably be murder on your off arm.
Ahhhhh. The sling and exercise solution..so simple. An M4ish carbine shouldn't be much more than 7.5 lbs. unloaded, maybe 8 lbs. loaded. But holding that at your shoulder for 45 mins. would probably be murder on your off arm.
8 lbs is a heavy one.
8 lbs is a heavy one.
I was making allowance for a heavier optic/mount combo. A 6920 unloaded is a nice light 6.29 lbs.
What hanguard are you running? The ELW KMR uppers are super light. You say 3 gun... is it scoped? How much does your rifle weigh now?
I currently have old troy alpha rail (the one with the holes). I have a vortex space. The 3 gun I go to is really just a fun run and gun deal. My gun currently weighs 9 pounds unloaded.
Ahhhhh. The sling and exercise solution..so simple. An M4ish carbine shouldn't be much more than 7.5 lbs. unloaded, maybe 8 lbs. loaded. But holding that at your shoulder for 45 mins. would probably be murder on your off arm.
Holding a pencil at arms length for 45 minutes will smoke you. I used to smoke joes by having them hold a pencil or map marker with two fingers in front of them. Took a few minutes, but isometric holds are isometric holds and that sucks.
I couldn’t even imagine having to hold a shouldered rifle on someone for that long.
Dont take this the wrong way but do you have a good sling?
I too have held folks at rifle point and a good sling makes a world of difference.
Holding anything outstretched for too long will wear you down.
if possible (key word possible) sling and go to a pistol if it is just too much depending on age and fitness.
Just keep a healthy enough distance.
45 mins can be an eon.
Yes a magpul ms3
Renegade04
01-03-18, 17:26
I would highly recommend considering a 16" LaRue Tactical PredatAR barrel.
https://www.larue.com/products/5-56-predatar-barrel-k/
I was making allowance for a heavier optic/mount combo. A 6920 unloaded is a nice light 6.29 lbs.
My go to rifle weighs 6lbs 10oz empty. Thats with a full ambi lower, RDS with mount, light, BUIS, sling and A5 buffer. No trick parts other than the Bobro sights, Geissele swivels and Scalarworks MRO mount. It's easy to make a 7 lb fully equipped rifle if you put a BCM KMR, ELW upper on it.
I currently have old troy alpha rail (the one with the holes). I have a vortex space. The 3 gun I go to is really just a fun run and gun deal. My gun currently weighs 9 pounds unloaded.
9 pounds is pretty much a pig unless it has a big scope on it.
What's lighter, PredatAR or BCM ELW
don't know but here is a great place to look
Very comprehensive AR15 parts weight database
according to them the 16" PredatAR is 26oz which is quite heavy
Faxon pencil 16 is lightest at approx 19oz
BCM 14.5 ELW is approx 21.2oz
check out this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit#gid=1281452680
9 pounds is pretty much a pig unless it has a big scope on it.
I still can't figure where all the weight is.
don't know but here is a great place to look
Very comprehensive AR15 parts weight database
according to them the 16" PredatAR is 26oz which is quite heavy
Faxon pencil 16 is lightest at approx 19oz
BCM 14.5 ELW is approx 21.2oz
check out this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit#gid=1281452680
Good info, thanks!
I still can't figure where all the weight is.
Give us a pic of it.
Give us a pic of it.
Yup.
oz add up to lbs quickly.
20180103_181317
Looks like you didn't attach your pic correctly.
Click reply to thread at the bottom of the page, click the picture button the choose to add from computer and select the picture.
Once you see the file attached you press the "upload files" button. On my view it doesn't really look like it is a button but that's what you click/ press to close the pop up. You should see the text added with "ATTACH" in brackets.
Then submit your reply.
49562
I think it's easier to add pics I Tapatalk if you have that.
OP, what stock do you have on the thing? Do you have stuff in it? I have a rifle, and I will elaborate later when I have time, that has a Magpul ACS stock on it, if I load that thing up with batteries, skittles, tools, lube, and whatever, I can easily add a pound plus to my rifle. Also, QD swivels, rail covers, extraneous other crap, VGs, mounts, rail add ons, ect, add weight. As can grips since some AR grips, the Larue Apex or whatever is a hefty one, can also add weight.
Click the insert image and upload it from your computer.
My go to rifle weighs 6lbs 10oz empty. Thats with a full ambi lower, RDS with mount, light, BUIS, sling and A5 buffer. No trick parts other than the Bobro sights, Geissele swivels and Scalarworks MRO mount. It's easy to make a 7 lb fully equipped rifle if you put a BCM KMR, ELW upper on it.
Oh I believe you. My 3gun rifle with a Steiner P4, Faxon 18" Gunner barrel, and an Apex carbon fiber forend is 7 lbs 6 oz. Without the scope/mount it's a little over 6 lbs. 2 oz. My rifle more like yours' is 7 lbs. 9.6 oz with a 1-4 lpv. Without the scope it's 6 lbs 7 oz but without the sling and light. I haven't weighed with sling and I without a light at the time.
Holding a pencil at arms length for 45 minutes will smoke you. I used to smoke joes by having them hold a pencil or map marker with two fingers in front of them. Took a few minutes, but isometric holds are isometric holds and that sucks.
I couldn’t even imagine having to hold a shouldered rifle on someone for that long.
This! A lighter rifle, the lightest rifle, would have had the exact same effect, just 2 minutes later.
Give us a pic of it.
49568
First, moving from an STR stock (12.3 Oz) to a BCM Gunfighter (7.5) saves you nearly 5 oz.
What kind of light setup do you have? I see the tapeswitch, is it a Streamlight HL rifle setup?
I find that lights, being further out from the center of gravity, can negatively impact handling of the weapon, so I try to go as light as possible (make sure to include extra mounting rails, tapeswitch, etc).
And that barrel is likely part of the problem as well, if it's a govt M4 barrel.
Not sure about the rail, I had a troy quad with a Noveske SS 10.5 barrel and that was a f-ing pig. Learned my lesson good after that mistake.
Don't Tread On Me
01-04-18, 08:05
Can't recall if it's already been stated, but if you don't have a sling that in and of itself would help immensely, especially seeing how you have sling specific points on the rifle that add weight. Another thing to consider, the STR stock is little beefy and there are more light weight options out there.
Outlander Systems
01-04-18, 08:11
While everyone is equipment-focused, that's all secondary. A 12lb rifle, versus a 7lb rifle wouldn't make a significant difference.
OP, I'm more curious about the nature of the incident, and the circumstances surrounding it.
If legally viable to do so, would you provide a synopsis/AAR of the event?
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-04-18, 09:13
.....
While everyone is equipment-focused, that's all secondary. A 12lb rifle, versus a 7lb rifle wouldn't make a significant difference.
OP, I'm more curious about the nature of the incident, and the circumstances surrounding it.
If legally viable to do so, would you provide a synopsis/AAR of the event?
Well, it wasn't what he wanted to talk about. And the 5lbs difference would be a big deal to me. I've handled 12 lbs rifles and it made me never to want one.
49568
You could easily lose a pound off the rifle by going to a thinner barrel, shorter and lighter handguard, lighter more compact stock and replacing the afg with a small handstop. Just reinforcing what was already said. Lots of money though. It would probably be cheaper and more efficient to work out a sling setup and find a technique that would allow you to get through the situation (while being ready to act) with as little fatigue as possible.
While overall weight is a concern, also consider the weight balance of your gun. A nose heavy rifle feels heavier. Our SOCOM barreled gun handles better than a standard 6290 IMO and our 6720 is my favorite gun. I set ours up with a slight rearward bias at the barrel nut.
Honestly, I think that going to a 14.5" pencil barrel and maybe a shorter rail would go a long way.
First, moving from an STR stock (12.3 Oz) to a BCM Gunfighter (7.5) saves you nearly 5 oz.
What kind of light setup do you have? I see the tapeswitch, is it a Streamlight HL rifle setup?
I find that lights, being further out from the center of gravity, can negatively impact handling of the weapon, so I try to go as light as possible (make sure to include extra mounting rails, tapeswitch, etc).
And that barrel is likely part of the problem as well, if it's a govt M4 barrel.
Not sure about the rail, I had a troy quad with a Noveske SS 10.5 barrel and that was a f-ing pig. Learned my lesson good after that mistake.
Streamlight protac rail mount 1 on a troy rail section and tape switch.
Both my cars got broken into on halloween, my glock 43 and M&P shield were stolen. I have always carried my AR out with me when I walk my dog at night because of coyotes in my area. I live on 8 acres in the middle of a large field. I took my dog out and spotted someone with a backpack run from the side of my house, so I yelled to stop and get on the ground and called the cops. later, I found out he had just broken into my neighbors garage and stole a bunch of tools a week before.
Dr. Bullseye
01-04-18, 12:20
Both my cars got broken into on halloween, my glock 43 and M&P shield were stolen. I have always carried my AR out with me when I walk my dog at night because of coyotes in my area. I live on 8 acres in the middle of a large field. I took my dog out and spotted someone with a backpack run from the side of my house, so I yelled to stop and get on the ground and called the cops. later, I found out he had just broken into my neighbors garage and stole a bunch of tools a week before.
There is another "diet" to slim down your AR----crank off a few rounds. No, that is more of a joke than anything else. Nobody would suggest shooting someone without cause.
Outlander Systems
01-04-18, 12:40
Further proving my point, everyone is wrapped around the axle on weight and equipment; which is wholly dependent upon the situation.
Without the specifics of the incident, the discussion is pointless.
Well, it wasn't what he wanted to talk about. And the 5lbs difference would be a big deal to me. I've handled 12 lbs rifles and it made me never to want one.
Another point - no matter how light the rifle is, the longer you hold it at the ready, the heavier it's going to get (muscle fatigue).
Averageman
01-04-18, 14:02
Another point - no matter how light the rifle is, the longer you hold it at the ready, the heavier it's going to get (muscle fatigue).
I learned this when a guy in our Platoon put his sling together incorrectly.
The saddest sound you ever heard was that guys moan when his weapon hit the road.
Those A1's got crazy heavy as we stood there for five minutes arms extended and weapons balanced on the backs of our fingertips.
We did get a nice lesson on why we love our slings though.
Further proving my point, everyone is wrapped around the axle on weight and equipment; which is wholly dependent upon the situation.
Without the specifics of the incident, the discussion is pointless.
The only point you seem to making is you should probably leave this thread. The new guy asked for help with his rifle.....but that's all secondary to the real issue, why don't you tell him and the rest of us again how irrelevant the discussion is on weight. I and some other guys didn't think it was not worth discussing, you know, because weight is important to some of us. We had the basics of the situation...he was holding his rifle on a guy and after 45 mins it was becoming a burden. Maybe if you came in and didn't basically insult the guy and asked him politely to give you and us more details he might have done just that. This is a place for discussing gear and tactics and situations and everything else related to guns, why come in and treat the guy like a chump.
Well fellas this is the exact reason why I left ar15.com. I've been in the AR game for about 12 years now. I have multiple AR pistols and rifles I was asking for input on my go to gun. I built my first when I was 18. I guess I just didn't realize that barrels have came such I long way since I built the gun 5 years ago.
bamashooter
01-04-18, 17:35
Well fellas this is the exact reason why I left ar15.com. I've been in the AR game for about 12 years now. I have multiple AR pistols and rifles I was asking for input on my go to gun. I built my first when I was 18. I guess I just didn't realize that barrels have came such I long way since I built the gun 5 years ago.
I read only the first page yesterday. Did you get a satisfactory response to your question?
crosseyedshooter
01-04-18, 17:35
I’ve taken the same half-day carbine class multiple times with two different 16” setups. First is a BCM ELW 16” with MRO, weighing in at 6 lb 9 oz. Second is a Centurion Arms 16” CHF, CMR and 1-4x weighing in at 7 lb 8 oz. By the end of the class, I was still willing to learn using the first rifle and ready to drop the second on the ground.
I think an earlier post mentioned swing weight and that’s what got me. All the repeated “up” drills really emphasized the benefits of a lighter barrel/muzzle.
I also second the advice regarding sling setup and use. A tightened two-point sling can help bear some of the weight even in low-ready position.
Looking at your photo of the rifle, it’s hard to imagine it weighs 9 pounds! Can you weigh just the upper assembly separate from the lower? The easy button to a lighter rifle would be to order a BCM ELW 14.5” MCMR/KMR (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-14-5-Mid-Length-ENHANCED-Light-Weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-elw-mcmr-13.htm) and just swap the upper.
Averageman
01-04-18, 17:48
Well fellas this is the exact reason why I left ar15.com. I've been in the AR game for about 12 years now. I have multiple AR pistols and rifles I was asking for input on my go to gun. I built my first when I was 18. I guess I just didn't realize that barrels have came such I long way since I built the gun 5 years ago.
Have you went to Youtube and looked at InRange TV and looked at the WWSD (what Would Stoner Do?) sections and taken a close look at those video's?
They worked hard putting that together and the idea was to build a modern version of what Eugene Stoner would do to put together and AR with what is available today based upon advances in light weight durable components.
I don't agree with all of their choices, but they put a lot of educated thought in to the decisions they made and every attempt was made to keep the weapon as light and robust as possible.
It is a lot of good food for thought based upon your situation.
I hope I wasn't being too snarky in my first response.
Thanks
A/M
https://www.full30.com/channels/inrange
bamashooter
01-04-18, 17:50
I did
Good deal. Nine pounds is pretty heavy. I have a scoped 20" / solid stock that weighs in at 9lbs and would crap if I had to hold it for 10s of minutes.
But using it 3-gun and firing it as much as you do it obviously isn't too heavy for you except for those unforeseen times when you must hold it at the ready, etc, for sustained sessions. Two things and I'll leave you alone:
1. I believe you indicated you have a sling. Did you utilize it at all in a resting position?
2. What, if any, recommendations are you considering on lessening the weight?
Thanks
Oh yeah. Good job.
Have you went to Youtube and looked at InRange TV and looked at the WWSD (what Would Stoner Do?) sections and taken a close look at those video's?
They worked hard putting that together and the idea was to build a modern version of what Eugene Stoner would do to put together and AR with what is available today based upon advances in light weight durable components?
I don't agree with all of their choices, but they put a lot of educated thought in to the decisions they made and every attempt was made to keep the weapon as light and robust as possible.
It is a lot of good food for thought based upon your situation.
I hope I wasn't being too snarky in my first response.
Thanks
A/M
https://www.full30.com/channels/inrange
"they made and every attempt was made to keep the weapon as light and robust as possible"
They may be good guys but just because they post videos doesn't mean the have a clew. Robust my ass.
OP, instead of standing there for 45 minutes why didn’t you just put the guy on the ground and in a position of disadvantage?
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I didn't have the sling on the gun at the time. I'm thinking changing my barrel and stock. I may get a shorter hand guard eventually.
Mr. Goodtimes
01-04-18, 18:13
What you need is a gym membership and a good strength program, not a lighter weight rifle.
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I didn't have the sling on the gun at the time. I'm thinking changing my barrel and stock. I may get a shorter hand guard eventually.
Right but there is a difference between holding someone at gun point and simply holding a gun with respect to physical exertion.
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I didn't have the sling on the gun at the time. I'm thinking changing my barrel and stock. I may get a shorter hand guard eventually.
Keep an eye out for one of those Mission first Tactical stocks. Or Rogers.
But if I were you and trying to get out cheaper/most bang for buck and you don't want to buy a new upper. Change out the barrel and the rail. I've seen Faxon 16" pencil barrels for $140ish. 2A Balios Lite Aetheon (has QD mounts integrated) 10 to 12 inch rail for $180. Get rid of the AFG, tape switch, bad lever, basically about all your bolt ons. Put light at 12oclock. Get rid of that rear sling plate mount. Make a light weight sling or get a Proctor for $25. For sub $320 you'd probably cut off 2 lbs doing all that.
Check your local mil surp store for old style M4 stocks. Even the knock offs should be super light. Sub 5oz?
What you need is a gym membership and a good strength program, not a lighter weight rifle.
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Not totally fair assessment. A sling would have helped. I'm a burly guy and after a while an MP5 had me hating life.
It's simply not natural to extend anything for that period of time.
Hopefully this doesnt become a habit or common occurence for OP, but if you have to hold someone outdoors; Make them kick off their shoes. Unless they have callused their feet, they will not get far. Even socks dont help much.
I tried MS3 and it dug in too much. A good padded 2 point is your friend.
Why suffer?
OP I’m not tracking at all on this. It makes no sense to throw money away at a nonexistent problem. And with the intent of doing what? Saving half a pound?
The more expedient solution would be to actually put a sling on the rifle and be cognizant of some better common sense tactics when having to employ said weapon system.
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sundance435
01-04-18, 18:54
OP I’m not tracking at all on this. It makes no sense to throw money away at a nonexistent problem. And with the intent of doing what? Saving half a pound?
The more expedient solution would be to actually put a sling on the rifle and be cognizant of some better common sense tactics when having to employ said weapon system.
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I agree, since a sling would've probably made a big difference, but there's still no good reason for a 9lb self-defense carbine in 5.56, either.
dreamcrusher8307
01-04-18, 19:04
OP I’m not tracking at all on this. It makes no sense to throw money away at a nonexistent problem. And with the intent of doing what? Saving half a pound?
The more expedient solution would be to actually put a sling on the rifle and be cognizant of some better common sense tactics when having to employ said weapon system.
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I kinda have to agree with this, and what many other's have said. If holding someone at gunpoint for 45 minutes is a common occurrence, there are obviously bigger issues at play.
Great advice on taking the shoes off. If you don't have restraints or training in how to apply them, taking shoes off is a great choice.
I'm curious, OP, if you could elaborate on this a bit further. During this 45 minutes, in what position was the subject? Proned out, face down, with hands visible and arms spread wide?
Also, when you said you held him at gunpoint, I'm curious, was this aimed in through the optic or iron sights, or were you at a high ready, barrel aimed below him, and looking over the top of the rifle, allowing for less tunnel vision and better situational awareness?
Like many have alluded to a bit here, you may be going down a rabbit hole trying to "fix" a problem that might not be there. Now, I will say though, that a 9 lb rifle is a bit on the heavy side for my tastes, but since you seem to have no problem with it during competitions and training, be careful about reinventing the wheel.
I go to gym the everyday. I don't think that's the issue.
Outlander Systems
01-04-18, 19:43
Kinda what I was alluding to.
OP, instead of standing there for 45 minutes why didn’t you just put the guy on the ground and in a position of disadvantage?
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Mr. Goodtimes
01-04-18, 19:50
I go to gym the everyday. I don't think that's the issue.
Then your programming is garbage. I would recommend Wendler 5/3/1, it flat out works and you’ll be able to detain trespassers at gunpoint for hours on end, day after day without the need to go home and post a thread cluttering the internet with such asinine topics.
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OP, instead of standing there for 45 minutes why didn’t you just put the guy on the ground and in a position of disadvantage?
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Like face down, arms spread and the muzzle resting in his ear. No fatigue in that position. Unless he wasn't armed. Then the OP is probably the one that will be arrested.
Op wants a lighter rifle
He's got money to spend so why not?
Getting about a lb off the swing weight is really going to be eye opening
I go to gym the everyday. I don't think that's the issue.
Ok.
So if I remember correctly you were out looking for coyotes right? But you didn’t want to utilize a sling for a unknown reason.
Or, if that’s incorrect why not just have a pistol on you? One of the AR pistols you mentioned even?
You said you shoot 3 gun frequently but within the constraints of gaming the mass of the weapon wasn’t identified as a concern?
All of this is moot though because I’m going to tell you holding a guy at gun point with rifle weighing 7 pounds vs 9 pounds makes no difference after 45 mins. Both will suck, hence my comment about tactics earlier. Addressing both variables may be an option but one is wayyyyyyy more beneficial than the other.
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Like face down, arms spread and the muzzle resting in his ear. No fatigue in that position. Unless he wasn't armed. Then the OP is probably the one that will be arrested.
No amount of long gun should ever touch the subject. So much can go wrong.
We use guns because they let us keep some distance
Ok.
So if I remember correctly you were out looking for coyotes right? But you didn’t want to utilize a sling for a unknown reason.
Or, if that’s incorrect why not just have a pistol on you? One of the AR pistols you mentioned even?
You said you shoot 3 gun frequently but within the constraints of gaming the mass of the weapon wasn’t identified as a concern?
All of this is moot though because I’m going to tell you holding a guy at gun point with rifle weighing 7 pounds vs 9 pounds makes no difference after 45 mins. Both will suck, hence my comment about tactics earlier. Addressing both variables may be an option but one is wayyyyyyy more beneficial than the other.
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Wow I asked for advice on how to lighten up my AR and some how this has turned into a debate on how I held someone at gun point. I was not looking for coyotes, I was walking my dog and there is coyotes on my property. I have a sling, I just didn't have it on the gun at the time. I guess a sling is a solution to all my problems, it was under my nose all this time and didn't even know it.
Then your programming is garbage. I would recommend Wendler 5/3/1, it flat out works and you’ll be able to detain trespassers at gunpoint for hours on end, day after day without the need to go home and post a thread cluttering the internet with such asinine topics.
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How in the flying monkeys did this turn into gym and fitness discussion?
Mr. Goodtimes
01-04-18, 20:44
How in the flying monkeys did this turn into gym and fitness discussion?
Because you posted a thread about how a 9lb rifle is to heavy.
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I have experience with three lightweight barrels. All are 16", as I see the benefits of the 14.5" vs 16" debate to lean in the favor of the 16".
1-Black River Tactical Optimum Barrel:
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/optimum-barrel/
-I built an upper with this barrel using a Vltor MUR, ALG 13" V-3 Rail, SLR adjustable gas block, and LMT enhanced bolt carrier. Shoots incredibly smooth. -10 to 110 degrees, no issues.
2-Sionics LW barrel:
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/16/25-5-chrome-lined-w-low-profile-gas-block.html
-I usually recommend this barrel to buddies. A buddy used this barrel, I've used their medium weight barrel, and I just built an upper with this Sionics LW barrel that I received for Christmas. I find Sionics barrels to be very smooth aka "soft shooting".
3-BCM Enhanced Lightweight:
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Barrel-ENHANCED-LIGHT-WEIGHT-FLUTED-p/bcm-brl-mid-16-elw-f-std.htm
-Another buddy has this barrel. It's a solid barrel, though it seems to cycle harder that the BRT or Sionics. Not harder than a Colt 6920, though, so it's a moot point.
I decided to do a LW build after a shoulder injury, and I can certainly tell the difference between a LW build and non LW build. Pair one of these barrels with a BCM handguard or ALG and you're off to a great start, esp in conjunction with a micro red dot sight.
In all fairness, 45 minutes is a long time.
No amount of lifting or creatine will fix it.
Take a broom. Assume a ready-fight posture with it. Stay like that for almost an hour.
Then honestly say benchpresses and curls will fix that.
9 lbs is nothing until it is something.
A sling would have made life easier. Even if he had a Glock 19, he woulda got wiped. Like even going to high ready.
We cannot and should not assume OP has a background in Mil/LE.
He came out of it without having to kill someone or being killed himself.
A baseline 6920 with a sling would have made a world of difference
Then your programming is garbage. I would recommend Wendler 5/3/1, it flat out works and you’ll be able to detain trespassers at gunpoint for hours on end, day after day without the need to go home and post a thread cluttering the internet with such asinine topics.
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LOL I did SS and got my lifts up there and holding a rifle after a few minutes might be more difficult now.
Hammer_Man
01-04-18, 22:45
Ditch the 15" Troy handguard, and replace it with a 13" BCM MCMR. Ditch the STR buttstock, and replace it with a standard buttstock (you can probably find one for free if you ask around). Replace your barrel with a 14.5" pencil barrel of some kind and have a BCM extended flash hider welded on. That should reduce the overall weight of your carbine significantly, and move the center of balance closer to the middle.
Wow I asked for advice on how to lighten up my AR and some how this has turned into a debate on how I held someone at gun point. I was not looking for coyotes, I was walking my dog and there is coyotes on my property. I have a sling, I just didn't have it on the gun at the time. I guess a sling is a solution to all my problems, it was under my nose all this time and didn't even know it.
The point trying to be made is that the destination in which you currently find yourself is not so much the result the vehicle you elected to drive but more so the route and more importantly the detours you took to get here.
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I currently have old troy alpha rail (the one with the holes). I have a vortex space. The 3 gun I go to is really just a fun run and gun deal. My gun currently weighs 9 pounds unloaded.
49568
No offense, but I think your scale might be whack.... I just don't see anything in that picture that screams "heavy"....
To back up that claim- my current rifle is an old school DD V3- Gvt. profile 16" barrel with A2, Fixed FSB/Troy rear, 9" quad 'pic rail, STR stock w/ extra set of CR123, Surefire M600 Scout, Aimpoint PRO in the factory mount, some rail covers/handstop, and a Vickers Padded w/ metal hardware and QD attachments.
8.7 lb total, unloaded, and the SLING ALONE (+ QD) accounts for about 1/2 pound of that...
That being said, it balances very well- just forward of the magwell, so it doesn't really feel "heavy" it just feels "stout".... :laugh:
But then again, those oldschool Troy handguards may be heavier than I remembered, so....perhaps your scale is right.
Another point - no matter how light the rifle is, the longer you hold it at the ready, the heavier it's going to get (muscle fatigue).
This.
Also depends on level of stress, how hard you're working to pull the rifle into you, what the rest of your level of exertion is at, etc. Shit just gets heavy after a while. Another thing, like I mentioned above is how it balances- and to be fair, with that longer 13" rail and your light out at the end of it *may* be exacerbating the issue...
OP I’m not tracking at all on this. It makes no sense to throw money away at a nonexistent problem. And with the intent of doing what? Saving half a pound?.....
Also this.
But to put it into an example that may help you think about this- I literally just went through the same thing you're going through. Tossed my rifle on the scale, screamed in terror at the result, and then got jealous of all the guys with their cool slick Mlok rails that weigh nothing, which prompted a round of research, pricing and ounce counting obsession that would have made Sheldon Cooper proud....
In short, I would have been spending $5-800 to save about 4-5 ounces. Not even half a pound. And with that level of expenditure Vs weight savings not being worth a damn, I went along my merry way....
Now granted, if you chase some of the lighter weight options already posted here, you can probablty shave a whole pound. BUT you're gonna be shelling out so... YMMV, how much weight savings is worth it to you for your uses?
Ditch the 15" Troy handguard, and replace it with a 13" BCM MCMR. Ditch the STR buttstock, and replace it with a standard buttstock (you can probably find one for free if you ask around). Replace your barrel with a 14.5" pencil barrel of some kind and have a BCM extended flash hider welded on. That should reduce the overall weight of your carbine significantly, and move the center of balance closer to the middle.
To be blunt, with current prices, if you're going to go that far, just buy a complete new upper, save yourself some hassle and be done with it....
To what degree would Hammer Man's recommended setup negatively impact its use in 3-gun?
My recommendation is dedicating your current upper to competition/range use, and putting together a lightweight upper for self defense....and never removing the sling unless the weapon's being cleaned.
Hammer_Man
01-04-18, 23:53
To what degree would Hammer Man's recommended setup negatively impact its use in 3-gun?
My recommendation is dedicating your current upper to competition/range use, and putting together a lightweight upper for self defense....and never removing the sling unless the weapon's being cleaned.
Building a completely new upper (or purchasing this upper from BCM) would be the better way to go IMO. My suggestion of modifying his current setup was made under the assumption that he wanted to modify what he already had. Lastly, I'm also be curious to see how a LW, or pencil profile barrel would hold up during extended competition use.
In my opinion, the weight distribution is more important than the single number provided by a scale.
The Troy Alpha 11" model weighs about 10.5 oz...I don't know how that compares to other rails.
My 6920 got to be a heavy weight as well, went to a BA 14.5" barrel with a BCM A2X muzzle device...and life got much better.
don't know but here is a great place to look
Very comprehensive AR15 parts weight database
....
check out this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit#gid=1281452680
Preach it brother! I started the PWD and just wanted to post up my appreciation for "spreading the word". :D This database is user-supported, and many many users and manufacturers have submitted weight data to help the cause. Ditching weight on an AR isn't hard to do. The basic process I generally follow is to examine every single part on the gun individually, like this:
1. do you need the part at all? If no, ditch it--there's nothing lighter than a part that isn't even on the gun!--if so...
2. can it be made from a lighter material? CF, polymer, Mg, Li-Al, AL, Ti, Steel is generally the order of things, and you want the part to be as far to the left on that scale as practical for your particular use.
3. can it be modified? speed holes, some lathe / mill work etc might be able to make the part lighter and yet still functional
Combine this with the data available in the PWD and you'll be sub 4 lbs in no time. Anyway, thanks again for posting about the PWD. I do appreciate it!
bamashooter
01-05-18, 12:02
In all fairness, 45 minutes is a long time.
No amount of lifting or creatine will fix it.
Take a broom. Assume a ready-fight posture with it. Stay like that for almost an hour.
Then honestly say benchpresses and curls will fix that.
9 lbs is nothing until it is something.
A sling would have made life easier. Even if he had a Glock 19, he woulda got wiped. Like even going to high ready.
We cannot and should not assume OP has a background in Mil/LE.
He came out of it without having to kill someone or being killed himself.
A baseline 6920 with a sling would have made a world of difference
Pretty much this though a sling is the answer (imo) regardless of rifle. Just maintain a proper distance to bring the weapon to the ready in a safe and timely manner.
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