View Full Version : Oliver North...
Watching the American Made movie (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?203228-American-Made-Review), Ollie character makes a brief appearance in the movie toward the end in regards to the Iran Contra project. Now that have decades to view that event. I still for the life of me can't figure out how he's become something of a hero to some. Other than the fact he essentially fell on his sword to protect Reagen, McFarlane, Poindexter, etc, I can't figure out how anyone would view him as anything but a state sanction narco trafficker and arms salesmen who was the key player in making sure that "the US does not negotiate with terrorists" policy not true, something I believe has had fall out ever since.
I assume he negotiated on the back end to keep his pie hole shut and be the fall guy in exchange for essentially no punishment (1) other than some name calling by various Congressional communities considering what he did. Perhaps he thought what he was doing was in the best interest of his country, under orders from the WH et al, but "I was only following orders" has been that last words of many sent to jail or worse, and at end of the day, not a valid excuse.
If someone has a source that puts North in a better light, I'd be happy to read it. To date, the more I read the more I feel as with HC and the Benghazi event, North should be wearing a bright orange jumpsuit. Had he decided to really drop the who was who in all that, Reagan would likely have been impeached, and rightly so in my view, but after the Nixon crap, Nam, etc., probably not in the best interest of the nation per se, but that too debatable in retrospect.
The "Hack", pulled no punches on his feelings on North:
"LET ME TRY to describe Oliver North in a few fast bursts. He’s a jackass. He is so preposterous that there is a temptation to laugh at him. He’s smarmy, a flatter, a brownnoser. He’s also a twisted impostor, a drugstore Marine with an apparent compulsion to bullshit just about all the time. But while he tries to fool people with his fantasies, he is also very easy to fool. He boasts that he was a can-do guy when he was in the White House, but the record spells no-can-do. North did terrible damage to the U.S. until he was caught." - Colonel David H. Hackworth.
(1) "July 12, 1985, $14 million to finance came from drugs (Q1039)[2] In 1988, for his role in the Iran-Contra scandal, North was charged with sixteen felonies, convicted on three felonies (accepting an illegal gratuity; aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry; and ordering the destruction of documents). He was sentenced to a three-year suspended prison term, two years’ probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service. North’s convictions were vacated, after the appeals court found that witnesses in his trial might have been affected by his immunized Congressional testimony."
Source and a good read:
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/12/17/oliver-north-hero-or-buffoon/
google up Jeb Bush Oliver North Barry Seal :)
He was a good distraction who didnt mind being a distraction
Will,
I had a good answer for you yesterday, but now I don't recall...
He was a good distraction who didnt mind being a distraction
But that don't make him a hero. Where that part comes in for some, is still a mystery to me.
Averageman
01-06-18, 13:45
But that don't make him a hero. Where that part comes in for some, is still a mystery to me.
He wasn't a hero in regards to what made him famous, it is kind of ironic the he was the the first guy to testify and mention Bin Laden by name.
But that don't make him a hero. Where that part comes in for some, is still a mystery to me.
I didn't say it did. Just where his notoriety comes from. Same could easily be said for G. Gordon Liddy.
Both took the heat and made a comfortable living pandering to the AM radio bunch.
Liddy was on Miami Vice and North was on JAG.
He looked sharp in his uniform, raised his right hand, and just said "I do not recall" really well.
I dont hate him, dont like him. All I know is his trials pre empted some of my favorite cartoons
I was in Honduras (and other nearby places) for 18 months in '84-'85 participating in running crates of "contraband" to the Contras, and I doubt North was ever down there. Perhaps it was because I was low on the Totem Pole during that time (1LT) and that's the reason I never saw him. That whole enterprise seems to have been a waste of time and money using hindsight.
I would say if it did work and Latin America was now a bastion of Anti-Socialism and Getting their Poop in a Groupedness that it wouldn't have been so bad.
But sadly no. It seems like they are worse off now than 30 years ago
He wasn't a hero in regards to what made him famous, it is kind of ironic the he was the the first guy to testify and mention Bin Laden by name.
Then what is he a hero in regards to? I'm saying you consider him a hero, but that some do, and consider him a patriot, yada yada, for no reasons I can figure out. Falling on your sword to protect a highly illigal op that was very harmful to US interests long term that went to the highest levels of gov, does a hero make in my view.
I didn't say it did. Just where his notoriety comes from. Same could easily be said for G. Gordon Liddy.
Both took the heat and made a comfortable living pandering to the AM radio bunch.
Liddy was on Miami Vice and North was on JAG.
He looked sharp in his uniform, raised his right hand, and just said "I do not recall" really well.
I dont hate him, dont like him. All I know is his trials pre empted some of my favorite cartoons
All true. I always found Liddy a much more interesting character. I don't know if some generally view him as some sort of hero however.
I was in Honduras (and other nearby places) for 18 months in '84-'85 participating in running crates of "contraband" to the Contras, and I doubt North was ever down there. Perhaps it was because I was low on the Totem Pole during that time (1LT) and that's the reason I never saw him. That whole enterprise seems to have been a waste of time and money using hindsight.
Seems conflicting info on whether or not he was ever on the ground in those locations, at least from what's public.
I would say if it did work and Latin America was now a bastion of Anti-Socialism and Getting their Poop in a Groupedness that it wouldn't have been so bad.
But sadly no. It seems like they are worse off now than 30 years ago
More misses than hits to be sure, but a few places are doing much better with out assistance/intervention, such as Panama and Colombia.
for fun :)
google up
Mr Mike and 316
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion_3-16_(Honduras)
ramairthree
01-06-18, 15:20
Who knows?
Did he spend a lot of the time on the ground there?
Making shit happen in Latin American means doing a lot of bribing, looking the other way, flatering, favors that will never be paid back, etc.
Many get dirty doing so.
Even when nothing was ever done for personal gain you still broke rules to make things happen.
Even if you never did anything wrong you did not report others, which is wrong.
I can’t speak for the man himself,
But do any of you want a microscope going over your life?
Or being asked questions in a way you cannot win?
Is he a bad man, good man, unfairly judged, a bunch of stuff he has to leave unsaid?
How would you come out looking on TV after hours of stuff like the following?
...
Mr. Brink,
Your medical and fitness advice is based on what medical or other doctorate from where? That you attended when?
When did you serve as a SEAL prior to your job at the SEAL museum? Did you kill Army people to hush up stolen money like other SEALs?
Your books describe illegal activity you seem very familiar with. Which of those illegal acts have you committed or witnessed without reporting? Why are you so familiar with illegal activity?
Can you verify for me how you 100% ensured all women you slept with in Central America were over the age of 18? Or is it possible you slept with sex traffic’d minors due to your lack of documented verification? Why do you not care about sex trafficking of minors?
Why does none of your medical advice address anal sex in men that have sex with men? Either you simply do not care if homosexuals die, or you are avoiding being outed, which one is it?
I was in Honduras (and other nearby places) for 18 months in '84-'85 participating in running crates of "contraband" to the Contras, and I doubt North was ever down there. Perhaps it was because I was low on the Totem Pole during that time (1LT) and that's the reason I never saw him. That whole enterprise seems to have been a waste of time and money using hindsight.
not sure how much you got to get around ?
sad its so messed up its I often think its some of the most beautiful country in the world
coastal areas like Trujillo etc.. loved the mtn areas etc..
my love for baleadas man used to go to this one road side stand on the corner where this baleada lady as everyone called her would make them OH MAN freaking amazing for sure a thick tortila but OH never had anything like it since :)
that and corn on the cob from street carts rubed with just lime juice and chili powder :) to this day one of my fav ways of eating grilled corn on the cobb so simple and good :)
some fond memories of that country of course dysentery and giardia were not so fun :) hahahahahahahah
I don't think he is heroic. I think Americans respect someone who can keep thier mouth shut as it's kind of giving the finger to the man.
I also don't think that as a middle manager (0-5) he set policy or really made decisions that he is atttributed to in modern media.
In the end he was an aspiring USMC officer that showed the public that he could act in what was thought as, honorably, by taking the hit for the whole scandal.
I would add that his net worth is way more than it would have been with his 20 or 30 year pension from Uncle Sugar, so someone took care of him for his troubles.
Singlestack Wonder
01-06-18, 16:10
But that don't make him a hero. Where that part comes in for some, is still a mystery to me.
Hero status came from actual combat actions in Vietnam...
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/04/world/white-house-crisis-portrait-marine-colonel-north-s-career-decorations-for-combat.html
Is he a bad man, good man, unfairly judged, a bunch of stuff he has to leave unsaid?
Maybe all of the above, hence the Q on the matter. "It's complicated" is a viable answer up to a point...
Hero status came from actual combat actions in Vietnam...
Noted, but the hero status was clearly associated with the Iran-Contra events and I don't think it was of the "you really screwed the pooch on that one but you're still a hero in my eyes due to your service in Nam" kinda thing.
ramairthree
01-06-18, 17:13
I don't think he is heroic. I think Americans respect someone who can keep thier mouth shut as it's kind of giving the finger to the man.
I also don't think that as a middle manager (0-5) he set policy or really made decisions that he is atttributed to in modern media.
In the end he was an aspiring USMC officer that showed the public that he could act in what was thought as, honorably, by taking the hit for the whole scandal.
I would add that his net worth is way more than it would have been with his 20 or 30 year pension from Uncle Sugar, so someone took care of him for his troubles.
I suspect you are not very familiar with what goes on in SOF then.
You may have O4s, 5s, and 6s independtly making things happen for three and fours stars indecently in their own with no precedents and coming up with stuff.
not sure how much you got to get around ?
sad its so messed up its I often think its some of the most beautiful country in the world
coastal areas like Trujillo etc.. loved the mtn areas etc..
my love for baleadas man used to go to this one road side stand on the corner where this baleada lady as everyone called her would make them OH MAN freaking amazing for sure a thick tortila but OH never had anything like it since :)
that and corn on the cob from street carts rubed with just lime juice and chili powder :) to this day one of my fav ways of eating grilled corn on the cobb so simple and good :)
some fond memories of that country of course dysentery and giardia were not so fun :) hahahahahahahah
I was flying CAS for CH-47's and UH-60's dropping off crates in jungle LZ's. Got see some of that contraband back at Palmerola being off-loaded from various fixed wing transport planes. I saw vintage British .303 rifles and Romanian AKMs, and about anything else imaginable.
The most vivid memory of that time was not the rotten climate or food, but the tropical birds. Never saw more colorful birds to that point in my life.
I was in Honduras (and other nearby places) for 18 months in '84-'85 participating in running crates of "contraband" to the Contras, and I doubt North was ever down there. Perhaps it was because I was low on the Totem Pole during that time (1LT) and that's the reason I never saw him. That whole enterprise seems to have been a waste of time and money using hindsight.
But it DID lead to the eventual downfall of the Sandinistas being in power.......until, of course, like maybe 20 years later when Danny-boy got elected again. The Contra operation, IMHO, kept me from going to war in Central America > 30 years ago. I was stationed in Panama in an Airborne Infantry unit and no doubt would have been thrown right into the middle of it. Both times I deployed to Honduras ('84 and again in '86) we carried a basic combat load. Things were tenuous for a few years in that AO as I'm sure you know. ;)
But that don't make him a hero. Where that part comes in for some, is still a mystery to me.
Silver Star in Vietnam ought to cover that base, no?
NVM, saw someone already mentioned it.
Straight Shooter
01-06-18, 18:03
As a Marine, Ive always like Col. North. And always liked Liddy a lot, too. Met both...Ive paid to hear Liddy speak a couple times & listened to him on/off for years back when I trucked. For me- I think Iran-Contra is almost an un-knowable thing, as to who was right, who was wrong.
Ill say this- I cant stand a ****in RAT...some deal-making coward scared to reap his own consequences & willing to dime out others to save his own yellow skin.
North & Liddy AINT RATS, say whatever else you may about them.
I think both are Flag loving Patriots, who did things that werent "legal"..but in my and others views..werent wrong.
Straight Shooter
01-06-18, 18:06
Silver Star in Vietnam ought to cover that base, no?
I damn sure think so.
for fun :)
I really only know the honduran contra side of things and of course the CIA ran good guys were really freaking monsters and not good at all
True, but even the infamous MS-13 was ostensibly founded by ex-members of the El Salvadoran military we trained.
not sure how much you got to get around ?
sad its so messed up its I often think its some of the most beautiful country in the world
coastal areas like Trujillo etc.. loved the mtn areas etc..
my love for baleadas man used to go to this one road side stand on the corner where this baleada lady as everyone called her would make them OH MAN freaking amazing for sure a thick tortila but OH never had anything like it since :)
that and corn on the cob from street carts rubed with just lime juice and chili powder :) to this day one of my fav ways of eating grilled corn on the cobb so simple and good :)
some fond memories of that country of course dysentery and giardia were not so fun :) hahahahahahahah
Can't speak for OH58D, but my extent of Honduran "travel" was the San Lorenzo/Choluteca area in the SW of the country, Palmerola air base (Soto Cana now IIRC?), and Tiger Island in the Gulf of Fonseca.
He ruined a lot of careers, though those folks made their own grown-up choices to go along with his silliness.
Can't speak for OH58D, but my extent of Honduran "travel" was the San Lorenzo/Choluteca area in the SW of the country, Palmerola air base (Soto Cana now IIRC?), and Tiger Island in the Gulf of Fonseca.
cool to see some others spent time there :)
had to google that area :)
never got that way closest was Tegucigalpa you were on the opposite side of where I was in the Bay Islands (Utila)
used to go to La Ceiba and do shopping
cool to see some others spent time there :)
had to google that area :)
never got that way closest was Tegucigalpa you were on the opposite side of where I was in the Bay Islands (Utila)
used to go to La Ceiba and do shopping
The areas I was in reminded me of southern California......vegetation for sure, but more "open" and sun-baked. The further east you went the more thickly jungled it became.
I suspect you are not very familiar with what goes on in SOF then.
You may have O4s, 5s, and 6s independtly making things happen for three and fours stars indecently in their own with no precedents and coming up with stuff.
I'm not claiming to be, no doubt about that. I'm a simple Seabee, but we support just about every camp in theater for SOF.
Silver Star in Vietnam ought to cover that base, no?
NVM, saw someone already mentioned it.
And I responded to it. ;)
MountainRaven
01-06-18, 20:40
As a Marine, Ive always like Col. North. And always liked Liddy a lot, too. Met both...Ive paid to hear Liddy speak a couple times & listened to him on/off for years back when I trucked. For me- I think Iran-Contra is almost an un-knowable thing, as to who was right, who was wrong.
Ill say this- I cant stand a ****in RAT...some deal-making coward scared to reap his own consequences & willing to dime out others to save his own yellow skin.
North & Liddy AINT RATS, say whatever else you may about them.
I think both are Flag loving Patriots, who did things that werent "legal"..but in my and others views..werent wrong.
So you must really like the mob, huh?
So you must really like the mob, huh?
Get your shinebox
(it's a joke)
Ill say this- I cant stand a ****in RAT...some deal-making coward scared to reap his own consequences & willing to dime out others to save his own yellow skin.
I think instinctively most folks feel that way.
But I think you also have to ask yourself how many oaths did North, in particular, break, and did he know what he was doing when he did so?
Straight Shooter
01-06-18, 23:31
I think instinctively most folks feel that way.
But I think you also have to ask yourself how many oaths did North, in particular, break, and did he know what he was doing when he did so?
I can agree to that- but what IS the answer? As I said, its un-knowable almost...some say this...some say that..hell I dont know. I remember trying to keep up with it when I was in, was very hard...but i do know its where I picked my utter loathing & hatred of U.S. "media".
Also- were oaths broken for the good of country? Personal gain? I just really dont know.
And to Fjallhrafn...I dont appreciate your commment sir. At all. I find it insulting, actually.
And Firefly- apparently they didnt nobody tell youse..I dont shine shoes no more.
[QUOTE=Straight Shooter;2582934
And to Fjallhrafn...I dont appreciate your commment sir. At all. I find it insulting, actually.
[/QUOTE]
Seemed a rather obvious and appropriate response to what you posted. I hate people who take an oath and ignore it under the guise of pretend patriotism as much if not more so than "rats" who end of spilling the beans about it. I don't see all rats as equal in that context.
ramairthree
01-07-18, 00:42
You can talk about being honest, integrity, and oaths all you want.
At the end of the day personnel engaged in various SOF, Intel, etc. activities get various courses and training in wartime and peacetime C SERE, high threat travel, etc. that can basically be summarized as lying your ass off convincingly to get your job done and prevent information from being compromised.
Straight up Face on the A Team con jobs.
It makes it hard for me to judge the guy.
My yardstick remains-
Done for personal gain = bad.
Done to accomplish your directed goals without personal gain = OK.
Basically,
If you, say, diverted ammo to the AUC for intel on the ELN and FARC, gave a Depatimiento Police Chief some military equipment written off as lost in exchange for support, bribed a Mayor with some Op Funds for some access, and lost medical supplies to a Health Minister for info on where/who certain things seemed out of the ordinary you were good to go.
If you sold ammo to the AUC for money, partied with a Departimiento Police Chief with lots of women, sex, and alcohol involved while some equipment was lost, bribed a Mayor with some Op Funds to get out of jail, and lost medical supplies to a brothel madam in exchange for the obvious, you were not good to go.
Seems pretty clean cut.
But what if a lady at the brothel was a cousin of a mole in the FARC and your meets had to be convincing?
What if you were purposely setting up a dirty Police Commander and engaged in activities with him that were going to be evidence against them?
What if a honest as the day is long old School Ranger Bn Infantryman later becomes an Operator. Years go by. He gets old and broke. He ends up becoming a case officer. And gator on certain detainees as needed. He lies, cheats, false promises, elaborate schemes, and set ups. Barely one word out of ten that leaves his mouth for years is the truth. And not just with the assets and detainees. He has to lie or withhold truth to get approvals, budget, etc. He has off the books safe houses and assets to secure families in order to get cooperation. A house of cards built from a deck of lies. Many lives are saved and many very bad men die because of it. Is he a bad man? I am hesitant to judge them.
I am not saying any of this directly applies to him.
But the Intel side of things is not like telling a guy to do a sprint, and pointing to the start point point, a straight line 100 yard dash on a track lane, with a finish line and telling him ready, set, go.
It is dropping a guy into the middle of an obstacle course in the middle of the night with no light and telling him to make sure he completes every obstacle by morning. With no instructions on how, what order, what you can use, etc.
It is putting a guy into a SERE environment he could actually die during and them complaining he ate some rare woodpecker eggs, caught some endangered trout, and broke a no fires in the forest rule after he almost froze to death, etc.
And like I was messing with the OP about, one of those testimony hearings can be worded and done in a way that is the opposite of a fair shake.
Straight Shooter
01-07-18, 00:50
Seemed a rather obvious and appropriate response to what you posted. I hate people who take an oath and ignore it under the guise of pretend patriotism as much if not more so than "rats" who end of spilling the beans about it. I don't see all rats as equal in that context.
So, YOU KNOW what actually happened, or you just have an opinion? Im ASKING..because I dont know. For every one who has claimed wrongdoing...someone else said he was acting in best manner for our country. Anyway- its good to see you are down with personal insults, something to remember.
MountainRaven
01-07-18, 01:31
And to Fjallhrafn...I dont appreciate your commment sir. At all. I find it insulting, actually.
"Snitches get stitches," is a common refrain of criminals and those who protect them.
"Can't stand rats," means you believe people should lie to protect you from the consequences of your immoral acts. That you believe they have a moral duty to lie to protect you.
I would worry about the moral compass of one who thinks it is morally courageous to sell arms to an embargoed terror state with a history of targeting Americans - which took 52 US citizens hostage for 444 days after sacking an American Embassy and killed 241 US Marines and 58 French paratroopers - and then lie to Congress and destroy one's honor and anyone who would tell Congress the truth about these reprehensible criminal acts is a, "cowardly rat."
This is as far as I will entertain the "rats" spiel:
You have to live with yourself longer than anyone else.
I know a LOT of guys who think because they did XY and Z that they have "real brothers" who would "empty their bank accounts" and "go anywhere".
Nope. Sorry. That's a frankly childish way of looking at things.
Time waits for none. After a few marriages (and divorces), kids, PITA job, a few moves, personal problems of their own....
Nope. You just become another guy. Another guy that maybe people didn't really like as much as was lead on to believe.
A is A.
We can wargame all the fugduckery that goes on to get things accomplished but at the end of the day the cheese always stands alone.
Instead of asking me to cover up for you, how about you not do things that need covering up?
My biggest problem with the entire Iran-Contra thing was the IRAN part of it. Still would be to this day, but should have especially stunk like a dead fish back then when most of Iran's biggest transgressions were still fresh on everyone's minds.
So, YOU KNOW what actually happened, or you just have an opinion? Im ASKING..because I dont know. For every one who has claimed wrongdoing...someone else said he was acting in best manner for our country. Anyway- its good to see you are down with personal insults, something to remember.
Two unrelated topics. Not all whistle blowers are "rats" and not all rats whistle blowers. He made a general comment he "f-ing hated rats"
My comment unrelated to this event per se.
Straight Shooter
01-07-18, 17:11
"Snitches get stitches," is a common refrain of criminals and those who protect them.
"Can't stand rats," means you believe people should lie to protect you from the consequences of your immoral acts. That you believe they have a moral duty to lie to protect you.
I would worry about the moral compass of one who thinks it is morally courageous to sell arms to an embargoed terror state with a history of targeting Americans - which took 52 US citizens hostage for 444 days after sacking an American Embassy and killed 241 US Marines and 58 French paratroopers - and then lie to Congress and destroy one's honor and anyone who would tell Congress the truth about these reprehensible criminal acts is a, "cowardly rat."
And thats YOUR version & opinion, which YOU are entitled to have. I BELIEVE the man to be a Patriot, and they were doing whatever they thought was right..at the time. Of course in hindsight you can armchair quarterback all day long. And, if he did indeed fall on his sword to protect President Reagan, to me all the better.
As for the first part of your response- You are 100% wrong. What I said, I hated someone who was a scumbag POS, who rats out other scumbag POS's to save their own skin, instead of taking what you deserve. I like how you bring it down to me...I hate someone ratting on ME, to protect ME from MY immoral acts.
There's a few of you dudes on here that like to try to instigate from time to time- instead of keeping things civil- you one of them.
Ill simply say READ CAREFULY next time before posting, especially in response to me- or dont post at all as far as in response to me.
This thread is like 1980's deja vous, and all the politics regarding Iran-Contra. Maybe someone should get in touch with Larry Vickers and get his opinion? Personally, I have no opinion pro or con against Oliver North. To me he seems like he was a good Marine and someone who loves his Country. To my knowledge, I have never seen him in person. If I had gotten emotionally involved with all the politics of any American action worldwide, I might not have sought that ROTC scholarship.
During my 18 months in Honduras and visits to Nicaragua, my wife and family thought I was in Panama. In fact for a few years after, it was never discussed. On a military action level, this was a well run operation, with lots of moving parts that worked well together. Not all of our activities involved arming the Contras closer to Managua via flights out of Palmerola. There were other tribal groups in the eastern part of that Country which were being organized and stirred up by the Contras. We used a small airstrip at Brus Laguna in eastern Honduras for staging flights and refueling, flying arms to these tribal areas. We found out later that the arms we supplied these tribal groups ended being used against other tribes, including the murders of women and children. This doesn't get much play these days, and rumors about started trickling down the chain even when I was still there in 84-85.
I do think that this whole operation was just another in a series of little conflicts that we always end up in, and a lot don't seem to make any difference in the long run. Daniel Ortega is still running Nicaragua, and we've moved onto other things. It was just a job for me at the time.
ramairthree
01-07-18, 18:16
Also keep in mind 20/20 vision.
Those guys we helped fight the Russians became Taliban.
What idiots we were.
But that’s different, it’s not like we are siding with former Taliban now against ISIS.
Oh wait.
HardToHandle
01-07-18, 20:37
My biggest problem with the entire Iran-Contra thing was the IRAN part of it. Still would be to this day, but should have especially stunk like a dead fish back then when most of Iran's biggest transgressions were still fresh on everyone's minds.
Actually the Iran part was pretty legit. Remember the Mullahs suddenly got religion when Reagan was elected instead of the feckless Jimmy Carter. The original "October Surprise" was not a James Comey tap dance, it was the release of the Iranian Hostages.
Poindexter was trying to open a legitimate channel to the least crazy of Iranian Mullahs, guys who were good Whiskey drinkers seven years prior. The Israelis thought the plan might work, so worth a try, as they were getting ready to attack Saddam's Iraqi nuclear program. Any of the US weapons sent via Israel to Iran were going to prolong the Iran-Iraq War, which was in everyone's best interest.
The Iranians continued to be shitbags... Shocker.
Reagan's team at least tried to get Buckley and the others out alive while screwing Saddam.
Hezbollah might have been neutered if the charm offensive worked.
And we never should have been in Lebanon.
Also keep in mind 20/20 vision.
Those guys we helped fight the Russians became Taliban.
What idiots we were.
But that’s different, it’s not like we are siding with former Taliban now against ISIS.
Oh wait.
Today's enemies, tomorrow's friends. Case in point Vietnam. In recent years they seem to have lost their love affair with the Peoples Republic of China. The world is constantly in transition. Some things stay the same for a while, then other things change all the time.
I have always believed in a proactive foreign policy with power projection. The idea of killing them "over there" so we don't have to kill them here. As I get older the more I realize that we need to pick our operations more carefully. And when we engage, we engage with extreme prejudice.
These are the ramblings of an old soldier who turns 58 next month...
I cant remember where I read it, but it rings true:
Nations dont have friends, only interests.
Like I think it was Archer where he found the Japanese soldier and he was baffled that the US and USSR were enemies and that Japan was doing big business. And Germany was beaten.
The first Japanese word a kid learns is Nintendo.
Like Rambo 3 was my favorite movie as a kid because it went right to Rambo blowing stuff up but....
as an adult, so. much. cringe.
Hell, I remember when Iran was considered a better ally than Israel. They have the F-14s to prove it.
Who knows, maybe one day we'll need the Mexicans to save us from the Islamic Republic of Canada. :p
MountainRaven
01-07-18, 22:07
And thats YOUR version & opinion, which YOU are entitled to have. I BELIEVE the man to be a Patriot, and they were doing whatever they thought was right..at the time. Of course in hindsight you can armchair quarterback all day long. And, if he did indeed fall on his sword to protect President Reagan, to me all the better.
As for the first part of your response- You are 100% wrong. What I said, I hated someone who was a scumbag POS, who rats out other scumbag POS's to save their own skin, instead of taking what you deserve. I like how you bring it down to me...I hate someone ratting on ME, to protect ME from MY immoral acts.
There's a few of you dudes on here that like to try to instigate from time to time- instead of keeping things civil- you one of them.
Ill simply say READ CAREFULY next time before posting, especially in response to me- or dont post at all as far as in response to me.
If you think it's patriotic to sell arms to the murderers of 241 US Marines and 58 French paras... well. You have fun with that.
Today's enemies, tomorrow's friends. Case in point Vietnam. In recent years they seem to have lost their love affair with the Peoples Republic of China. The world is constantly in transition. Some things stay the same for a while, then other things change all the time.
I have always believed in a proactive foreign policy with power projection. The idea of killing them "over there" so we don't have to kill them here. As I get older the more I realize that we need to pick our operations more carefully. And when we engage, we engage with extreme prejudice.
These are the ramblings of an old soldier who turns 58 next month...
Vietnam and China fell out almost as soon as the last US helicopter left Saigon. By the end of that decade, Vietnam went to war with the Khmer Rouge, invading Cambodia, and were in turn invaded by the Khmer Rouge's allies, the Chinese. Vietnam allied with the Soviet Union against China and the two fought a number of border skirmishes right until the Soviet Union collapsed.
This thread is like 1980's deja vous, and all the politics regarding Iran-Contra. Maybe someone should get in touch with Larry Vickers and get his opinion? Personally, I have no opinion pro or con against Oliver North. To me he seems like he was a good Marine and someone who loves his Country. To my knowledge, I have never seen him in person. If I had gotten emotionally involved with all the politics of any American action worldwide, I might not have sought that ROTC scholarship.
During my 18 months in Honduras and visits to Nicaragua, my wife and family thought I was in Panama. In fact for a few years after, it was never discussed. On a military action level, this was a well run operation, with lots of moving parts that worked well together. Not all of our activities involved arming the Contras closer to Managua via flights out of Palmerola. There were other tribal groups in the eastern part of that Country which were being organized and stirred up by the Contras. We used a small airstrip at Brus Laguna in eastern Honduras for staging flights and refueling, flying arms to these tribal areas. We found out later that the arms we supplied these tribal groups ended being used against other tribes, including the murders of women and children. This doesn't get much play these days, and rumors about started trickling down the chain even when I was still there in 84-85.
I do think that this whole operation was just another in a series of little conflicts that we always end up in, and a lot don't seem to make any difference in the long run. Daniel Ortega is still running Nicaragua, and we've moved onto other things. It was just a job for me at the time.
True, but "still" in the sense that he eventually got re-elected decades later and isn't quite the commie he used to be. The contra operation ultimately played a huge part in ending the reign of the Sandinistas of the 1980's. So it did accomplish it's goal (for a change).
You guys are having a good conversation so far, a wee bit on the edge though. Keep it civil and read responses carefully so they aren't misinterpreted.
Also keep in mind 20/20 vision.
Those guys we helped fight the Russians became Taliban.
What idiots we were.
But that’s different, it’s not like we are siding with former Taliban now against ISIS.
Oh wait.
That wasn't the idiotic thing. The idiotic thing was dumping them like a 200-pound barfly hook-up when the Soviets left, creating the power vacuum. We had told them we were going to stay and help them rebuild.*
*Charlie Wilson's War. One of the best books, ever, about our intervention in Astan in the 70s/80s.
True, but "still" in the sense that he eventually got re-elected decades later and isn't quite the commie he used to be. The contra operation ultimately played a huge part in ending the reign of the Sandinistas of the 1980's. So it did accomplish it's goal (for a change).
Perhaps we contributed to a part of that, but there were a lot of moving parts worldwide, including the downward trajectory of the Soviet Union. It seems a lot of the Soviet client States and banana republics realized that a more open approach to international interaction with western democracies has some value. The exception seems to be the leadership in Venezuela. That will have to collapse, crash and burn before something else will rise from the ashes.
But back to LTC Oliver North. What I have seen of him on the tube seems to indicate a solid Marine who really loves this Country. At least at face value.
That wasn't the idiotic thing. The idiotic thing was dumping them like a 200-pound barfly hook-up when the Soviets left, creating the power vacuum. We had told them we were going to stay and help them rebuild.*
*Charlie Wilson's War. One of the best books, ever, about our intervention in Astan in the 70s/80s.
Agreed. I think I posted a review way back, but not sure. That's a must read book on many levels. As you say, the fail was not backing them, it was doing what we do when something ends/lose interest, pack up our toys, cut funding, and go home failing (over and over again apparently) to understand what will result when you leave a vacuum like that. It was also solid payback for commie backing in Vietnam, but we tend to take a short view of what requires long term thinking and commitments which often returns to bite us in the ass. I can't think of a better example then Afghanistan for that.
sundance435
01-09-18, 14:31
That wasn't the idiotic thing. The idiotic thing was dumping them like a 200-pound barfly hook-up when the Soviets left, creating the power vacuum. We had told them we were going to stay and help them rebuild.*
That's pretty much been the cornerstone of US foreign policy, post-WW2. We either have to be content with the short-term effects of lobbing cruise missiles and calling it a day, or commit ourselves fully to something, which would require the stomach to endure poor poll numbers for an extended time. The "in-between" has never worked, as far as I know.
"The Savage Wars Of Peace: Small Wars And The Rise Of American Power", by Max Boot, is a must-read on this topic.
That's pretty much been the cornerstone of US foreign policy, post-WW2. We either have to be content with the short-term effects of lobbing cruise missiles and calling it a day, or commit ourselves fully to something, which would require the stomach to endure poor poll numbers for an extended time. The "in-between" has never worked, as far as I know.
"The Savage Wars Of Peace: Small Wars And The Rise Of American Power", by Max Boot, is a must-read on this topic.
I think maybe the only time it has worked for us since 1900 was post-WWII Germany and Japan. But yeah, in every other case it's been an abject failure, often coming back to bite us in the ass.
I just feel like chiming in that you Cold War era guys are pretty unsung in your efforts.
Looking back and just revisiting the subject matter as an adult; those were wild times.
I think maybe the only time it has worked for us since 1900 was post-WWII Germany and Japan. But yeah, in every other case it's been an abject failure, often coming back to bite us in the ass.
South Korea too was a success. They still exist and have a decent military.
I just feel like chiming in that you Cold War era guys are pretty unsung in your efforts.
Looking back and just revisiting the subject matter as an adult; those were wild times.
Wild times, on a precarious edge, yeah. But it was called the "Cold War" for a reason. Sure, there were "flare-ups" that went hot, like Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Beirut, those little-heard missions in Central America, and Desert Storm. Guys died there. Other than those folks us "Cold War" guys are vets with a small "v". Those who have seen the elephant are vets with a capital "V".
I saw a guy at one of my FIL's WWII reunions whose dad was also a WWII vet. This dude was ex-military, a little older than me but not old enough for Vietnam. He wore one of those baseball caps that said "Cold War Veteran". I didn't say anything but was like "Really dude? We didn't do shit."
Wild times, on a precarious edge, yeah. But it was called the "Cold War" for a reason. Sure, there were "flare-ups" that went hot, like Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Beirut, those little-heard missions in Central America, and Desert Storm. Guys died there. Other than those folks us "Cold War" guys are vets with a small "v". Those who have seen the elephant are vets with a capital "V".
I saw a guy at one of my FIL's WWII reunions whose dad was also a WWII vet. This dude was ex-military, a little older than me but not old enough for Vietnam. He wore one of those baseball caps that said "Cold War Veteran". I didn't say anything but was like "Really dude? We didn't do shit."
Yeah a "Cold War Veteran" cap is pretty gay.
But literally standing post up on the Iron Curtain while kids of my generation got to enjoy a childhood was appreciated.
But again, that cap was indeed gay.
However my Meme War cap gets proudly worn (NOT!)
Perhaps we contributed to a part of that, but there were a lot of moving parts worldwide, including the downward trajectory of the Soviet Union. It seems a lot of the Soviet client States and banana republics realized that a more open approach to international interaction with western democracies has some value. The exception seems to be the leadership in Venezuela. That will have to collapse, crash and burn before something else will rise from the ashes.
But back to LTC Oliver North. What I have seen of him on the tube seems to indicate a solid Marine who really loves this Country. At least at face value.
I agree, he is a true believer and a patriot. And President Reagan abhorred communism and felt it was a scourge and would do anything to stop it's spread.
It was a "cold war" only in that we didn't go to war against any Division I players like the USSR, NK, or Eastern Europe. We did play ball against the bush league teams.
Hey, a vet is a vet is a vet. You don't pick and choose your war or circumstances. I imagine all those guys sweating bullets on US submarines sitting on the sea floor a mile from the USSR tapping into communications cables would like to think they earned their 'vet' status.
That said, I wouldn't wear a "Cold War Veteran" cap....
I agree, he is a true believer and a patriot. And President Reagan abhorred communism and felt it was a scourge and would do anything to stop it's spread.
Including, supplying weapons to terrorists illegally and turning a blind eye (and that's giving benefit of the doubt there was not more direct involvement...) to tons and tons of drugs brought into the US kicking off a massive increase in cocaine use, crime, deaths, etc. that lasted a decade or more. If that's how a patriot views as a valid route to protect us from the commies, that's not how I'd view a patriot personally.
Whether North et al viewed themselves as patriots during that event is irrelevant to me when compared to what transpired. No doubt North was scapegoat and yes, he took it on the chin like a good soldier.
Including, supplying weapons to terrorists illegally and turning a blind eye (and that's giving benefit of the doubt there was not more direct involvement...) to tons and tons of drugs brought into the US kicking off a massive increase in cocaine use, crime, deaths, etc. that lasted a decade or more. If that's how a patriot views as a valid route to protect us from the commies, that's not how I'd view a patriot personally. Your mileage may vary.
I do not think one can question his patriotism or love of country. I think the question is, do the ends justify the means? Your assessment would be, no. I think a lot of people would agree. I'm OK with some of what he did, not OK with other stuff he did.
I do not think one can question his patriotism or love of country. I think the question is, do the ends justify the means? Your assessment would be, no. I think a lot of people would agree. I'm OK with some of what he did, not OK with other stuff he did.
Agreed, not questioning his patriotism, but the old expression "with friends like that..." comes to mind.
Whether North et al viewed themselves as patriots during that event is irrelevant to me when compared to what transpired. No doubt North was scapegoat and yes, he took it on the chin like a good soldier.
I remember watching the Iran Contra hearings, and the Congressmen grilling North. His demeanor, and answers to the question made him a star. He totally played them. It was one of the more entertaining hearings I've ever seen.
sundance435
01-10-18, 10:44
South Korea too was a success. They still exist and have a decent military.
From a broader perspective of the war, that's debatable.
I remember watching the Iran Contra hearings, and the Congressmen grilling North. His demeanor, and answers to the question made him a star. He totally played them. It was one of the more entertaining hearings I've ever seen.
Does not make him any type of hero on my eyes. He fell on his sword, took it on the chin, was not a "rat" to use term by other poster, but none of that alters what went down and the net effects of it. It let the world know, we do in fact negotiate with terrorists, and that set a precedent that reverberates to this day in my view. I fully appreciate hindsight is often 20/20, but I don't think that one was difficult to look at at that time, and realize it was bad ju ju.
Does not make him any type of hero on my eyes. He fell on his sword, took it on the chin, was not a "rat" to use term by other poster, but none of that alters what went down and the net effects of it. It let the world know, we do in fact negotiate with terrorists, and that set a precedent that reverberates to this day in my view. I fully appreciate hindsight is often 20/20, but I don't think that one was difficult to look at at that time, and realize it was bad ju ju.
Where did I characterize North as a hero? I said the hearings made him a "star", and they did. I did not agree with the actions of the Administration in Iran Contra just like I didn't agree with other illegal, or unethical ops we've done.
Does not make him any type of hero on my eyes. He fell on his sword, took it on the chin, was not a "rat" to use term by other poster, but none of that alters what went down and the net effects of it. It let the world know, we do in fact negotiate with terrorists, and that set a precedent that reverberates to this day in my view. I fully appreciate hindsight is often 20/20, but I don't think that one was difficult to look at at that time, and realize it was bad ju ju.
Firewall is a great book about Iran-Contra. I think it was one of those things that was high risk/high reward. IF it had worked as planned, we'd never had known about it, Reagan would have been hailed a hero, and the world would have never heard of Ollie North. An O5 working for the NSC is low-hanging fruit; it became public, he took the fall. It is what it is.
At the time, I believe they thought it was a risk worth taking, looking at the world view of the early 80s: Selling weps to Iran was designed to keep them from falling under the sphere of the USSR, which was pissed off about Afghanistan; we were also trying to influence the Iranian government to be less hostile to the US. It was a noble cause to attempt to free American hostages; three of seven were released.
I think where it got ugly for me was involving the Contras, especially since we already had some inroads in advising and funding anti-communist forces. But dealing with Iran was always tricky, and I felt it was always going to come back to bite us in the ass (and it did).
I would them rather not have done it, but don't fault them too much for trying, even if it wasn't what I would have done.
Where did I characterize North as a hero? I said the hearings made him a "star", and they did. I did not agree with the actions of the Administration in Iran Contra just like I didn't agree with other illegal, or unethical ops we've done.
Did you read the OP my bro? Point of the thread was the fact many do view him as a hero. Some suggested that was due to his service in the war, but that's clearly not why many viewed him a hero. They were apparently so impressed by his performance, they decided the rest (you know, why he was being grilled by Congress...) was OK. Yes, the hearings made him a star and a hero in the eyes of many.
Some suggested that was due to his service in the war, but that's clearly not why many viewed him a hero. They were apparently so impressed by his performance, they decided the rest (you know, why he was being grilled by Congress...) was OK. Yes, the hearings made him a star and a hero in the eyes of many.
I will go so far as to say, I think he's a hero for his service in VN. He got a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. He was on the fast-track for flag.
As for his role in the Iran-Contra scandal, I will muddy the waters and suggest he was a tragic hero (of the classical definition).
From a broader perspective of the war, that's debatable.
I was referring to the fact that they still stand and have not fallen.
Did you read the OP my bro? Point of the thread was the fact many do view him as a hero. Some suggested that was due to his service in the war, but that's clearly not why many viewed him a hero. They were apparently so impressed by his performance, they decided the rest (you know, why he was being grilled by Congress...) was OK. Yes, the hearings made him a star and a hero in the eyes of many.
You keep beating that horse, but 8 pages in and not a single person in this thread has agreed that he is a hero because of Iran Contra. So this "many" you allude to, who are they? Are they Rush Limbaugh types? Alex Jones types? I ask because I really don't know who you're talking about?
I've resisted posting here because it's obviously a sore spot for some cold war participants. As a Reagan Marine, I happened to not be deployed when the hearings were held and I remember watching Col. North on the TV in the rec room at the barracks. This is what we saw:
http://www.americanheritage1.com/assets/images/americana%20collectibles/special-interest-items/ollie-north-testifying-before-congress-1.jpg
Now having worked at the SEAL museum, what do his uniform and awards initially say to you? Now couple that with his testimony (if you haven't watched it, you really should considering your thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhroz1tvk-A ), and what should that say to a service member in general and a Marine in particular considering who he was squared off against?
I'll say this about my experience with the United States military, it takes all kinds. Seriously, you can be the best of the best, bleeding edge tip of the spear operator and your mission will fail if you're not adequately equipped, informed, supported, transported, exfil'd, treated medically (if necessary) and reequipped to strike again. There's a lot of friendly banter back and forth about combat vs. rear echelon, but a successful military requires more types and elements that are beyond the comprehension of most. Col. North was assigned a post and he stood it, just as he did in Vietnam. Had he succeeded, he'd have been given a quiet commendation and likely made General. He didn't and suffered the consequences. Contrary to popular belief, to the rank and file one aww shit DOESN'T wipe out all the attaboys.
That in and of itself doesn't make him a hero or a villain, it makes him someone who stood a watch like the rest of us and didn't blame his mission failure on everyone but himself. He wasn't anointed, nor was he a pawn. Whether you consider him a rook or a knight, he played his part and did the best he could with what he was given. In the early 80's, countering communism was THE mission above all other missions. Anything else was secondary or tertiary, including Iranian backed extremism. Lest we forget, Iran never had 30,000 nuclear weapons and never tried to install any less than a hundred miles off our coast.
So any talk of Iran backed extremism today is revisionist history in the context of Iran Contra and Col. North. He play a part in the anti-communist play and that's that.
I consider him to be a minor hero for his role in Vietnam and I appreciate that he bested a bunch of liberal pols during the hearings. Had he served under a Democrat, those attacking him would've been defending his actions and vice-versa. Politics is a dirty and ignoble business, Soldiers and Marines merely play the part they're directed to play. That's my take on it anyway. YMMV
Straight Shooter
01-10-18, 16:05
You keep beating that horse, but 8 pages in and not a single person in this thread has agreed that he is a hero because of Iran Contra. So this "many" you allude to, who are they? Are they Rush Limbaugh types? Alex Jones types? I ask because I really don't know who you're talking about?
I've resisted posting here because it's obviously a sore spot for some cold war participants. As a Reagan Marine, I happened to not be deployed when the hearings were held and I remember watching Col. North on the TV in the rec room at the barracks. This is what we saw:
http://www.americanheritage1.com/assets/images/americana%20collectibles/special-interest-items/ollie-north-testifying-before-congress-1.jpg
Now having worked at the SEAL museum, what do his uniform and awards initially say to you? Now couple that with his testimony (if you haven't watched it, you really should considering your thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhroz1tvk-A ), and what should that say to a service member in general and a Marine in particular considering who he was squared off against?
I'll say this about my experience with the United States military, it takes all kinds. Seriously, you can be the best of the best, bleeding edge tip of the spear operator and your mission will fail if you're not adequately equipped, informed, supported, transported, exfil'd, treated medically (if necessary) and reequipped to strike again. There's a lot of friendly banter back and forth about combat vs. rear echelon, but a successful military requires more types and elements that are beyond the comprehension of most. Col. North was assigned a post and he stood it, just as he did in Vietnam. Had he succeeded, he'd have been given a quiet commendation and likely made General. He didn't and suffered the consequences. Contrary to popular belief, to the rank and file one aww shit DOESN'T wipe out all the attaboys.
That in and of itself doesn't make him a hero or a villain, it makes him someone who stood a watch like the rest of us and didn't blame his mission failure on everyone but himself. He wasn't anointed, nor was he a pawn. Whether you consider him a rook or a knight, he played his part and did the best he could with what he was given. In the early 80's, countering communism was THE mission above all other missions. Anything else was secondary or tertiary, including Iranian backed extremism. Lest we forget, Iran never had 30,000 nuclear weapons and never tried to install any less than a hundred miles off our coast.
So any talk of Iran backed extremism today is revisionist history in the context of Iran Contra and Col. North. He play a part in the anti-communist play and that's that.
I consider him to be a minor hero for his role in Vietnam and I appreciate that he bested a bunch of liberal pols during the hearings. Had he served under a Democrat, those attacking him would've been defending his actions and vice-versa. Politics is a dirty and ignoble business, Soldiers and Marines merely play the part they're directed to play. That's my take on it anyway. YMMV
Thank you for this. I too, was in during his trial, what few tv's we had were ALL on him during his testimonies. I fvcking HATED those old wrinkled hosebags who never fired so much as a BB gun, quizzing this man.
I fvcking HATED those old wrinkled hosebags who never fired so much as a BB gun, quizzing this man.
Uh, OK.......
House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran
Rep. Lee Hamilton (D-IN), chairman NON VET
Rep. Thomas Foley (D-WA) NON VET
Rep. Peter Rodino, Jr. (D-NJ) WWII Captain, First Armored, North Africa and Italy
Rep. Jack Brooks (D-TX) Marines WWII, Guadalcanal, Guam, Okinawa, North China
Rep. Louis Stokes (D-OH) Army 1943 to 1946
Rep. Les Aspin (D-WI) Army 1966-68
Rep. Edward Boland (D-MA) Army WWII Pacific
Rep. Ed Jenkins (D-GA) Coast Guard 1952-55
Rep. Dante Fascell (R-FL) - WWII African, Sicilian and Italian Campaigns
Rep. Dick Cheney (R-WY) - five draft deferments.
Rep. William Broomfield (R-MI) - WWII Army Air Corps
Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL) - WWII Navy
Rep. Jim Courter (R-NJ) - Peace Corps Volunteer in Venzuela during VN
Rep. Bill McCollum (R-FL) 1969 – 1972 Navy JAG
Rep. Michael DeWine (R-OH) – College During VN
Senate Select Co mmittee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition
Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-HI) WWII MOH
Sen. George Mitchell (D-ME) Army 1954 to 1956
Sen. Sam Nunn (D-GA) Coast Guard 1962 - 1968
Sen. Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) NON VET
Sen. Howell Heflin (D-AL) WWII USMC Silver Star, 2 Purple Hearts
Sen. David Boren (D-OK) OKNG 1963-1974
Sen. Warren Rudman (R-NH) Army, Korea
Sen. James McClure (R-ID) WWII Navy
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) NON VET
Sen. William Cohen (R-ME) NON VET
Sen. Paul Trible (R-VA) NON VET
I think a couple of those guys had the spurs to quizz North.
Straight Shooter
01-10-18, 20:21
NOT talking about those listed here, obviously, but I do appreciate that list. Who were the women on these committees...seem like there were few Fienstien/Boxer types I remember.
I MAY be remembering something else from around that time. You must remember I was active duty, watching in spurts as time allowed. It seems I remember some old hags questioning him very disrespectfully..cannot remember who.
And you are 100% right- several of them were more than qualified to question him.
separate what the gov/CIA did
vs
gov/military did
I think of the movie A Few Good Men
Kaffee: I WANT THE TRUTH!
Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
[pauses]
Col. Jessup: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
Col. Jessup: I did the job I...
Kaffee: [interupts him] *Did you order the Code Red?*
Col. Jessup: *You're God damn right I did!*
NOT talking about those listed here, obviously, but I do appreciate that list. Who were the women on these committees...seem like there were few Fienstien/Boxer types I remember.
I MAY be remembering something else from around that time. You must remember I was active duty, watching in spurts as time allowed. It seems I remember some old hags questioning him very disrespectfully..cannot remember who.
And you are 100% right- several of them were more than qualified to question him.
AS far as I can tell, that is the list of the Congree crtitters on the committee.
During that time period I was not into TV much, but the wife and I watched the hearings off and on. I thought North was well polished, but lying through his teeth. The wife thought he was a great American. We are divorced now. LOL
Straight Shooter
01-10-18, 21:32
AS far as I can tell, that is the list of the Congree crtitters on the committee.
During that time period I was not into TV much, but the wife and I watched the hearings off and on. I thought North was well polished, but lying through his teeth. The wife thought he was a great American. We are divorced now. LOL
Again, thank you for that list. Im gonna try to recall who Im thinking of that I remember questioning him. Could there possibly have been other outside sources involved in the questioning?
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