View Full Version : Top Training Experiences
I have seen the "Short List" thread for traininers, now what about your top list of training experiences naming the trainer(s), the shooting platform, and the type of experience you've had.
Intensive Handgun Skills, Greg Hamilton from Insights Training.
This was my first pure shooting class and it was a real eye opener. I had been to "tactical" classes and had been shooting IDPA for about a year. I came out of IHS shooting much better and more importantly with a better understanding of how to practice on my own, set goals and improve on my own.
Other notables were Dynamic Tactics with Andy Sandford of OPS, and Combative Pistol with Tom Givens of Rangemaster. Both of these 2 had a lot of useful info on tactical movement and surviving on the street.
I still remember and am now teaching some of the lessons I learned in IHS.
Gringop
30 cal slut
10-17-08, 15:19
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Election2008/Default.aspx?id=204974
Louis Awerbuck Carbine (http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8322/8901.html)
uscbigdawg
10-17-08, 15:34
Matt Burkett - Not bad. Great for beginners.
Mike Voigt - 3-Gun and pistol. AWESOME!
Bennie Cooley - All of the above and incredible!
Spartan Group (original) - Pretty cool.
Rich
Business_Casual
10-17-08, 16:48
Super Dave
M_P
I don't like it when an instructor gets all Yoda like. I want simple stuff that I can use in the field. That said I have learned the most from Ken Hackathorn and LAV.
I don't like it when an instructor gets all Yoda like.
Shoot or shoot not there is no try. :D
I always try to learn something from every class I go to, including in some rare cases, what not to do.
But if I were suggesting just a single class, for pure shooting Bruce Gray. I went to a Bruce Gray class after reaching a plateau in my shooting, I left the class with a better understanding of the nitty gritty details of being able to shoot fast and accurately.
For mindset there is no better class then Tactical Response's Fighting Pistol, I got more mindset wise from a 2 day class then some 5 day schools. Up until that class all I ever heard was a rehash of the Cooper color codes. But TR's Fighting Pistol went over what to do to avoid the gun fight, what to do during the gun fight, and finally what to do after a gun fight.
Pat Rogers- I've taken his 3 day carbine twice, his 3 day AK and the 5 day carbine class. In my experience nobody else comes close as far as teaching a comprehensive program on how to fight with a carbine. He stands out in particular with balancing the integration of equipment with the demands of shooting/fighting. Who else will let you test drive a Short Dot for 3 days?
Bennie Cooley- Total of 8 training days on carbine over 3 classes. Excels at getting you to be proficient in different, sometimes unorthodox, positions. Pushes you out of your comfort zone to think your way through the fight.
Paul Howe- I took his Advanced Hostage Rescue class so its not an apples to apples comparison but he teaches how to build your own program that integrates everything from dry fire to square range to tactics. Also the best articulated target discrimination methodology I've had so far.
Brian Searcy/Tigerswan- Carbine/Pistol- The best breakdown on marksmanship I've had and the subsequent progression to tactics. He teaches the fundamentals well while allowing you to push the boundaries of speed and accuracy.
Of the 4 different instructors I have trained with so far, I really liked the Magpul Dynamics Carbine 2 Class (Chris Costa). I guess it was the fact that I felt like I was pushed out of my comfort zone at times in this class, and it is at that point that I feel like I really learn. Chris is a great instructor.
John Frazer
10-24-08, 20:24
Intensive Handgun Skills, Greg Hamilton from Insights Training.
This was my first pure shooting class and it was a real eye opener. I had been to "tactical" classes and had been shooting IDPA for about a year. I came out of IHS shooting much better and more importantly with a better understanding of how to practice on my own, set goals and improve on my own.
Ditto that, although John Holschen was the instructor when I took it a few weeks ago.
I had trained with InSights several times over the past 10 years, including retaking a couple of classes. This includes equal parts of shooting and combatives. I've always found their material well thought out and explained; you will never hear "because that's the way we've always done it."
What set this class apart was that it really taught me what I didn't know, and showed me a path to improve. Their other classes were great for learning basic skills; IHS was great for ruthlessly exposing every student's weaknesses and giving them the learning tools to fix those gaps.
John Hearne
10-27-08, 19:50
Louis Awerbuck's Carbine Class - While I've had more fun in other carbine classes, I LEARNED the most in this class.
Scotty Reitz's Intermediate Handgun with Vehicle Defense - This was truely an advanced course. We shot very demanding drills, out to 200 yards and spent a day shooting up a car. The shooting debriefs that the class starts and ends with are worth it alone.
Sidewinder6
10-27-08, 20:24
Real life!
GLOCKMASTER
10-27-08, 20:57
My experience's with the below listed instructors have been outstanding and I highly recommend all four.
Brian Searcy of Tiger Swan (http://www.tigerswan.biz/course_info/cadre.html)
Pat Rogers
Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics (http://www.vikingtactics.com/)
Pat Goodale of Practical Firearms Training (http://www.pgpft.com/Default.htm)
My experience's with the below listed instructors have been outstanding and I highly recommend all four.
Brian Searcy of Tiger Swan (http://www.tigerswan.biz/course_info/cadre.html)
JFreuler,
Do we get an AAR of your recent TigerSwan course??;)
GLOCKMASTER
10-30-08, 21:21
JFreuler,
Do we get an AAR of your recent TigerSwan course??;)
Putting the finishing touches on it now along with resizing some pictures.
Work has been kicking my ass this week.:D
Gutshot John
10-31-08, 12:47
Pat Rogers for Carbine.
D.R. Middlebrooks for pistol.
I am hoping to sign up for an Awerbuck pistol class and a Pat Rogers carbine. Should be good
I've had the benefit of receiving high quality training from several instructors. Granted, I paid for much of it myself, but I suppose that's the course of doing business.
In no particular order, I'll mention:
*Miami-Dade PD's Officer Survival Instructor Course. Unfortunately, no longer offered, but a great class even in a hurricaine.
*Jeff Gonzales's combative carbine course. The Beltway sniper case started just outside my city. I happened to order Jeff's book while the operation was ongoing. Jeff contacted me and offered to put on a gratis carbine course for my agency. We couldn't get our act together to host the course. Some months later, Jeff invited me to attend a course he was presenting in a neighboring state--free of charge. Jeff's a class act and a great instructor.
*Northeast Counter-Drug Training Center's basic warrant execution class. The lead instructors were a couple of NYPD narcotics detectives who taught practical and realistic techniques. Good examples of why they're called "The Finest".
*CSAT's active shooter instructor course taught by Steve Claggett. CSAT lives up to its reputation.
*Surefire Institute's low light instructor course. I attended this before the training group split to form Strategos.
*For LEO's and .mil, I highly recommend IALEFI training conference. You can be exposed to a variety of instructors for minimal cost.
*The Crucible. I attended an exect-protect course geared to show LEO's what the program offered. Outstanding instructors and facility.
John_Wayne777
03-09-09, 21:04
Some of my favorite training experiences:
* Vickers Tactical AK course
This was the first course I took with Mr. Vickers and the first formal training I had ever done on the AK platform. It was an eye opening experience in a lot of ways and got me into more training with Mr. Vickers which has done me a world of good. Mr. Vickers was also kind enough to let us shoot his STMG-44 in the course, which was worth the price of admission in and of itself. It was the first time I had ever handled the weapon. My avatar is actually a picture GotM4 was kind enough to take of my time on the STMG-44. The course itself is often described as one of the most fun classes VT runs. The time spent on the platform and listening to the encyclopedic knowledge of LAV and Templar is just fun. It also busts a lot of myths about the AK and a number of us have come away pleasantly surprised at what a competent user can do with the platform.
* Blackwater USA Tactical Handgun II
This was the first class I took at Blackwater USA and I enjoyed it immensely. Every time I took the class (I have taken it multiple times) I have had a good group of classmates who had as much to offer as the instructors did. Time spent in the shoothouse was enormously valuable, as was time on the Rogers range and the low light content. The incredible facility allows the instructors to offer some very creative content based on the skill level of the class and the enormous resources at their disposal.
* Vickers/Hackathorn Low Light Courses
The low light courses put on by Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn in Ohio were without a doubt my favorite training experiences so far. I already had some good low light training going in, but I learned a tremendous amount in the courses. Ken and Larry had an unquestionable command of the content they were teaching and I did my best to commit every lesson and tidbit into long term memory. The quality of the training was superb and the time I got to spend with friends both new and old was enjoyable.
I'll post some others when I get the time...
I have taken tactical pistol 1 from Blackwater (back in '99 with Dale McClellan who is now with STS), Rogers Shooting School, a 3 day class from Frank Garcia (universal shooting academy) and tactical handgun 101 from Randy Cain. All of the classes were excellent and offered something, but they were also all different in many respects. The class at Blackwater was a very good overall shooting class and the different ranges allowed a variety of drills. Rogers method of shooting is different than anyone elses (in his method of trigger manipulation) but is hard to duplicate without the steel targets that he has. Frank Garcia's class was more competition oriented, however his breakdown of the fundamentals was excellent (a close second to Randy Cain). Randy Cain's class is all about the fundamentals, not only being able to execute them but actually understanding them and how they relate to each other. Its hard to say what the top experience would be because they all offered something different.
John Frazer
03-29-09, 06:42
Rogers method of shooting is different than anyone elses (in his method of trigger manipulation) but is hard to duplicate without the steel targets that he has.
Can you tell us a little more about Rogers' trigger manipulation? I have friends who've gone to the school, but I've never heard that.
Most schools teach a controlled press of the trigger and a suprise break (or something very similar). There are a few differences in what Rogers' teaches. Rogers doesn't concentrate on having a controlled press of the trigger. Shooting in such tight time frames, he wants you to know when the shot is going to go off. He describes manipulating the trigger as out and in (for 1/4 sec reaction time), and flip and press (for 1/2 sec reaction time). Both allow for the trigger finger to come off the trigger. Also he advocates a much stronger grip pressure than most and a locked up position (with elbows locked). Hope this helps. FYI, all of this is from what I can remember and looking back at my notes from the school (from 2000). If anyone has a different take on this let me know.
mjpsyr,
Did you find that the Rogers method of trigger manipulation worked for you...did you adopt it?
thanks
30 cal slut
03-29-09, 14:28
Larry Vickers is God-like in his ability to teach.
Folks appreciate his patience - or rather, INSISTENCE on imparting THE BASICS.
I'm kinda thick, so repetition is not only good, but necessary for me. I took five classes with LAV & Co. in 2008. Each subsequent class allowed me to "gel" a little of what was taught previously.
The culmination of my (limited) training experience to date was the Vickers/Hackathorn Low Light II class in November 2008, when you're putting carbine and pistol techniques together in the dark. It was an unforgettable, life-changing experience. And I'm not exaggerating.
I greatly look forward to spending more time with Larry, Dinger, and Dave Pennington, and Ken Hackathorn in 2009, if I can escape the gravitational pull of everyday life.
mjpsyr,
Did you find that the Rogers method of trigger manipulation worked for you...did you adopt it?
thanks
I did adopt it for the school and for a short time after, however I have since gone back to prepping the trigger and smooth press. It did work for me, but I think without shooting at such high speeds on his target systems it was better for me to work the trigger the more traditional way. Its hard to describe, but unless you have the disappearing reactive targets its difficult to maintain your shooting at those speeds even with the use of timers.
Its hard to describe, but unless you have the disappearing reactive targets its difficult to maintain your shooting at those speeds even with the use of timers.
There are two things you can use, alone or in combination, to help maintain and build the speed you picked up at Rogers:
Disappearing/turning targets. A lot of ranges, especially LE indoor ranges, have programmable target systems. Establish a time and try to get as many hits on a target as you can in that timeframe; or, try to hit as many targets (3x5 cards, for example) as you can in that timeframe.
Remember to use the PAR time function of your shot timer. Too many people just race themselves every session. Don't do that. Establish a baseline for your ability to pull off a basic skill, like a one shot draw or a Bill Drill. Then set your PAR time a little lower than that and push yourself to make the new time limit. Once you're consistently beating that PAR (and getting your hits in the process), lower the PAR again.
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