When did people start hating high quality Americans?

[ramairthree]

A few conservations with some colleagues went over the familiar ground of dumb people not knowing they are stupid, and shifted into people thinking they are hot shit because they are above average, but not exceptional.

Like, we understand people being too dumb to not know they are dumb.
But smart people should be smart enough to know they are not awesome.

I used to be in a very, very high quality density environment.

We all used examples of things.
Like, people saying “my IQ based on ... always over 98th percentile, on one test 99.5th percentile, but I have been around people I am in awe of”,
Or “around 35 years old, I could get up to 350 on the bench, but that is nothing for a mediocre power lifter smaller than me”,
Or, “yeah, I was starting quarterback, but at a service academy, I would never have made it to summer camp in the pros”

Basically, everyone was very cognizant of not letting things go to there head. And there was no jealously of the guys that stood out among super stars.

A decade later, there seems to be more resentment and even hatred.
I was telling a current colleague, “some guys are just super high quality. I went to a dive course with a guy, he graduated West Point, medical school, Ranger School, SFAS, and is now an astronaut”
They said “oh, ones of those guys great on paper”
After saying they were very good and high quality, not just on paper, they did not believe it.

I was telling some other colleagues about a naval academy grad, SEAL, that became a trauma surgeon. They were like “I bet he was a real asshole”
I was like, no, he’s a great dude,
And they brainstormed all the reasons he was not.

It’s almost like,
People like that are no longer role models.
There is something wrong with them.

[Dist. Expert 26]

That goes right along with the "trophy for everyone" mentality. We're all supposedly equal in every way, and pointing out that some people are all around better just isn't acceptable.

[Firefly]

You show me an accomplished man and I'll show you someone who has lost sleep, lost friends (in more ways than one), heave wept into his hands, bled, been screwed over, made hard decisions, and suffered.

None of these other people can handle it, thus they hate. Lowering the bar is a lot easier than putting in the effort

It seems cliche but:


Rudyard Kipling--If

If you can keep your head when all about you***

*** Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,***

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

*** But make allowance for their doubting too;***

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

*** Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,

*** And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:


If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;***

*** If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;***

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

*** And treat those two impostors just the same;***

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

*** Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

*** And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:


If you can make one heap of all your winnings

*** And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

*** And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

*** To serve your turn long after they are gone,***

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

*** Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’


If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,***

*** Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

*** If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

*** With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,***

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,***

*** And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!




That is no longer taught in schools.

It's up there with the "fair share" crap.

Screw 'em.

[BoringGuy45]

Jealousy, plain and simple. People regret that they were not able to accomplish all they wanted to in life, or that they do not have the intelligence or physical ability to ever do it even if they tried. It sucks feeling inferior, especially in America where everyone wants to be bigger and better.

[Lnxgeek]

Kurt Vonnegut was clued in to this since the 60s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

[26 Inf]

Could it be that they are trying to shut down the conversation because they aren't interested?

If so, they aren't very adept, as there are a lot less offensive ways to change subjects or end conversations.

[26 Inf]

double tap

[Doc Safari]

Someone asked me if I like Kipling.

I said, "I don't know. I've never kippled."

[Coal Dragger]

Long story short Ramairthree the simplistic answer to your question is:

Because most people are assholes.

Sorry man, but there it is.

I’m just a regular every day normal guy, maybe slightly above average intelligence (or better according to tests). I used to be an everyday normal USMC grunt, nothing special just an infantry Marine. No hatred towards the guys who had the drive, genetics, intellect to go further than I did, in fact pretty grateful we have people of that quality. If you hang around them and want to learn, or improve they’ll make you better too.

But most people are assholes. They want to disparage high achievers because instead of admiring the dedication, luck, determination, and sacrifices of high achievement, they know they lack the ability or will to do the same. Rather than acknowledging this honestly, they make excuses for their own poor comparative performance by imagining flaws in the person they are comparing themselves to. Unfortunately this means they won’t improve themselves.

I try not to fall into that trap, but will admit to that kind of poor attitude and mental masturbation at times. I’m human after all. Just have to cut that shit out and try to figure out how to be more like the high achiever instead. Seems more productive.

[ramairthree]

Could it be that they are trying to shut down the conversation because they aren't interested?

If so, they aren't very adept, as there are a lot less offensive ways to change subjects or end conversations.

Nope.
These recent conversations about poorly functioning humans and the massive gap of individual capability were initiated by them.

[Firefly]

Sometimes you just gotta say FIDO

[ramairthree]

Long story short Ramairthree the simplistic answer to your question is:

Because most people are assholes.

Sorry man, but there it is.

I’m just a regular every day normal guy, maybe slightly above average intelligence (or better according to tests). I used to be an everyday normal USMC grunt, nothing special just an infantry Marine. No hatred towards the guys who had the drive, genetics, intellect to go further than I did, in fact pretty grateful we have people of that quality. If you hang around them and want to learn, or improve they’ll make you better too.

But most people are assholes. They want to disparage high achievers because instead of admiring the dedication, luck, determination, and sacrifices of high achievement, they know they lack the ability or will to do the same. Rather than acknowledging this honestly, they make excuses for their own poor comparative performance by imagining flaws in the person they are comparing themselves to. Unfortunately this means they won’t improve themselves.

I try not to fall into that trap, but will admit to that kind of poor attitude and mental masturbation at times. I’m human after all. Just have to cut that shit out and try to figure out how to be more like the high achiever instead. Seems more productive.

I am well aware of my asshole ness,
But when running a unit I actively sought people smarter, faster, stronger, more SOF quals, more combat experience, more training, etc.

If I only sought people that could not show me up, the unit would be no better than me.

So, I was/am an asshole,
But no issues with extra high quality personnel.

Has to be more to it than just being an asshole.

[militarymoron]

To the OP's question, I think it's just jealousy/sour grapes. I'm typically around pretty smart people, and haven't seen an increase in resentment towards the exceptionally high performers over time. There are always those who will think that everyone who's a high achiever was handed their opportunities, rather than working for them, but I find them rare among the smart-not-awesome people I know (of which I consider myself to one of, lol).


Someone asked me if I like Kipling.

I said, "I don't know. I've never kippled."

Me neither - I think they only make stuff for women: https://www.kipling.com/int/
:)
(j/k - Kipling is one of my favourite authors. My dad used to read 'Just so stories' to me when I was a kid. It gave me great pleasure to read the exact same copy of that book to my son, years later.)

[Coal Dragger]

I am well aware of my asshole ness,
But when running a unit I actively sought people smarter, faster, stronger, more SOF quals, more combat experience, more training, etc.

If I only sought people that could not show me up, the unit would be no better than me.

So, I was/am an asshole,
But no issues with extra high quality personnel.

Has to be more to it than just being an asshole.

No you aren’t an asshole. Not in the sense I’m talking about. Maybe in the sense of someone with high standards and drive, who expects or demands others to maintain high standards.

I’m talking about jealousy, excuse making, and resentment type assholes. You know, normal assholes doing normal asshole stuff that ensures they stay the excuse making, mediocre asshole that they already are.

Perhaps I misunderstood your first post, and I’m off in the weeds here?

[MegademiC]

There is no way anyone is better than them, so they refuse to believe it.

Ie jealousy

[SteyrAUG]

Honestly, I hate being the smartest - most together guy in the room. Thankfully it doesn't happen that often.

[Coal Dragger]

Honestly, I hate being the smartest - most together guy in the room. Thankfully it doesn't happen that often.

Yeah not a great feeling. Mostly because I’m aware of just how much I don’t know, and how much a I cannot do well.

[Dienekes]

I recently stumbled over this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

The ten rules state:

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to imagine yourself better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.

In the book, the Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.

An eleventh rule recognised in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:

Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?

This was discussed in a 1933 novel by a Danish writer, Axel Sandemose, in his book, “A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks”. The book is hard to find for some reason.

Probably burned by the Progressive Brownshirts.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I read some article about Andre Aggasi and how in his book 'Open' he talks about his drive. I guess at one point in the late 90s(?) he fell hard and was doing crappy tournaments with like $3000 prizes. He sucked.


“Unless I can accept that I’m where I’m supposed to be, I’ll never belong there again.” For Agassi, “there” was the finals of Grand Slam...

The first step in high performance is realizing that aren't high performing.

Heck, that isn't even just about high performance. That is about reaching any goal. I was talking to my boss the other month about where we are know and my comment was, "It's amazing what happens when you keep your head down and you work hard for a decade."

Like Dory said, "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming....".

Too many people don't even get in the pool... others couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

[SteyrAUG]

Yeah not a great feeling. Mostly because I’m aware of just how much I don’t know, and how much a I cannot do well.

Worst thing is being the most qualified person in a room full of people you work for. Just drives me nuts, I can handle being the "idea guy" now and then, but when I'm flat out smarter and more qualified to do the job of the person I work for I feel nothing but resentment. Ideally my "boss" should not only be better at my job than I am, but they should do their job so well that every day I learn something new just by being around them.

In social situations I've accepted that sometimes I'm just way ahead of the curve than other people, but I temper that with the realization that there were times in my life when I just didn't know shit and wasn't even savvy enough to realize it.

I'm uncomfortable being the least educated / informed person in the room, and I've been there a few times, thankfully I'm usually smart enough to just stay in my lane and not try and fudge facts. I'm perfectly good with not knowing about X as much as the next guy and having more understanding of Y than the rest of the people in the room.

Slightly above middle average is where I'm most comfortable. That way I don't feel like a complete dumbass and I still have people to learn from. But I've never resented or hated anyone more intelligent or more together unless they just had an ahole personality to go along with it. But most people who truly are better than most others, usually are pretty easy going about it and have nothing to prove.

[Dist. Expert 26]

To quote a book of fables I read to my son tonight- "It is easy to dislike what you cannot have".

[AKDoug]

I think it is a product of the class warfare that is being perpetuated daily in America now. Everybody wants to be the man.. but they don't want to put in the work to be the man.

[flenna]

I think it is a product of the class warfare that is being perpetuated daily in America now. Everybody wants to be the man.. but they don't want to put in the work to be the man.

And there it is.

[MegademiC]

Worst thing is being the most qualified person in a room full of people you work for. Just drives me nuts, I can handle being the "idea guy" now and then, but when I'm flat out smarter and more qualified to do the job of the person I work for I feel nothing but resentment. Ideally my "boss" should not only be better at my job than I am, but they should do their job so well that every day I learn something new just by being around them.

I dont know your situation, so im jumping off your point, not necessarily disagreeing with you.

A boss doesnt need to know more or be better at your job than you, he just needs to be able to direct your skills in the proper direction to support company goals. That said, a good boss will push you to grow your talent and skill set. I can think of situations where the boss SHOULD be better at your job, but its an exception IMO. They just need to have an understanding to know when your doing a good job. My 2 cents.

[KTR03]

You show me an accomplished man and I'll show you someone who has lost sleep, lost friends (in more ways than one), heave wept into his hands, bled, been screwed over, made hard decisions, and suffered.

None of these other people can handle it, thus they hate. Lowering the bar is a lot easier than putting in the effort

It seems cliche but:


Rudyard Kipling--If

If you can keep your head when all about you***

*** Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,***

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

*** But make allowance for their doubting too;***

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

*** Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,

*** And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:


If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;***

*** If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;***

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

*** And treat those two impostors just the same;***

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

*** Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

*** And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:


If you can make one heap of all your winnings

*** And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

*** And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

*** To serve your turn long after they are gone,***

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

*** Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’


If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,***

*** Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

*** If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

*** With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,***

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,***

*** And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!




That is no longer taught in schools.

It's up there with the "fair share" crap.

Screw 'em.

I have a 11 month old son. He has heard this poem every evening sitting in the dark with his old man. Took about a month to be able to say it without tearing up. I'm pretty good now.

[AKDoug]

I dont know your situation, so im jumping off your point, not necessarily disagreeing with you.

A boss doesnt need to know more or be better at your job than you, he just needs to be able to direct your skills in the proper direction to support company goals. That said, a good boss will push you to grow your talent and skill set. I can think of situations where the boss SHOULD be better at your job, but its an exception IMO. They just need to have an understanding to know when your doing a good job. My 2 cents.

This is something so many small business owners can't figure out. I own a small business. Through my leadership, and my wife's, we have quadrupled the size of our business in 17 years. Nice, long, sustained growth. We've had one down year in all those years and it wasn't that traumatic. Notice I said "leadership". We would not be where we are today without seeing qualities in people that I needed to round out my own short comings and hiring them. That didn't happen over night, but when I figured it out 10 years ago our lives became much easier.

[ramairthree]

It just seems odd.

In one environment just a few years ago these were good, solid guys.

Now, in a highly accomplished one percenter earner civilian environment, they must be “assholes” or “only good on paper.”

People are not ashamed to get their sex change, collect welfare, etc. but can’t ‘fess up someone is a better man than them?

I understand being resentful of the dimwitted jackass that inherited millions in a trust fund and lazily goes about life earning or accomplishing nothing. But even if someone is born with potential, say Arnold, he did not become a champion body builder with out tons of hard work.

[Coal Dragger]

OK, I'm confused are you saying that these individuals are people you know who were rock solid guys when you knew them in a different career field, who are now displaying jealousy of others in their new career field?

[Firefly]

It just seems odd.

In one environment just a few years ago these were good, solid guys.

Now, in a highly accomplished one percenter earner civilian environment, they must be “assholes” or “only good on paper.”

People are not ashamed to get their sex change, collect welfare, etc. but can’t ‘fess up someone is a better man than them?

I understand being resentful of the dimwitted jackass that inherited millions in a trust fund and lazily goes about life earning or accomplishing nothing. But even if someone is born with potential, say Arnold, he did not become a champion body builder with out tons of hard work.

Maybe you are simply a Lifer awash in a sea of normies.

Most people are lazy and not worth a shit.

My counter ultimately is why do you care?

Richard P. Feynman built the A Bomb and didnt go on about how retarded people were. Some nookie, some brew,,some tunes, and a warm place to pitch a loaf were all he needed.

[SteyrAUG]

I dont know your situation, so im jumping off your point, not necessarily disagreeing with you.

A boss doesnt need to know more or be better at your job than you, he just needs to be able to direct your skills in the proper direction to support company goals. That said, a good boss will push you to grow your talent and skill set. I can think of situations where the boss SHOULD be better at your job, but its an exception IMO. They just need to have an understanding to know when your doing a good job. My 2 cents.

I guess where I was going is if I can do my job better than he can AND I can also do HIS job better than he can, then why the hell is he my boss? Is it because he's been here longer and still isn't as talented as me? I know the answer of course is usually who you know and what you know about them, but it still annoys me.

[KUSA]

I think that this liberal victim culture coupled with an epidemic level of the Dunning–Kruger effect is the cause.

[MegademiC]

I guess where I was going is if I can do my job better than he can AND I can also do HIS job better than he can, then why the hell is he my boss? Is it because he's been here longer and still isn't as talented as me? I know the answer of course is usually who you know and what you know about them, but it still annoys me.

Politics can certainly be a factor. His boss, if hes good, will see it and correct.

That said, im sure some of my reports think they can do my job, but they dont see what goes on while im “sitting at my desk all day”. They are incorrect.

Like i said, your situation could be different, based off your posts, im pretty sure you have an idea whats going on... but for most people, “ you dont know what you dont know” very much applies.


I think that this liberal victim culture coupled with an epidemic level of the Dunning–Kruger effect is the cause.

Absolutely. People need to be more self-aware. They also need to realize intelligence is useless if you dont put it to use. They also need to plan ahead, it seems no one has foresight.

[SteyrAUG]

Politics can certainly be a factor. His boss, if hes good, will see it and correct.

That said, im sure some of my reports think they can do my job, but they dont see what goes on while im “sitting at my desk all day”. They are incorrect.

Like i said, your situation could be different, based off your posts, im pretty sure you have an idea whats going on... but for most people, “ you dont know what you dont know” very much applies.





Actually "my situation" is I got fed up with it about 20 years ago and walked. I'm not especially adept at office politics and lack the critical skill of pretending to like people I actually find reprehensible. Been doing my own thing and being my own boss ever since.

At least now when I make a mistake, it's actually my fault and not somebody else with the capacity to throw me under the bus just because they can.

[ramairthree]

OK, I'm confused are you saying that these individuals are people you know who were rock solid guys when you knew them in a different career field, who are now displaying jealousy of others in their new career field?

I was in a very high quality density environment in the military.
Guys that stood out even in that environment were sought after, groomed, etc.
Say, everyone was a pilot of jet aircraft. Some were fighter pilots. And in a group when you talked about guys that were a SEAL before they were a pilot and later became a trauma surgeon, or became an astronaut you spoke of them as being a top notch, great dude.

I am retired from the military and in a field with highly educated and highly paid people.
So, to make an example like the above, let’s say everyone is a large passenger airline pilot. But when you mention someone like that, they assume those people must be assholes, or only good on paper.

I knew some people that played serious level college ball, truly 99 percentile athletes. But not the 99.99th percentile ones that went to a pro career. They never talked smack about the true pro level guys, unless it was something true. But it did not occur to them to act like those guys were not really that good.

What is the shift in society that made that switch?

[ramairthree]

Maybe you are simply a Lifer awash in a sea of normies.

Most people are lazy and not worth a shit.

My counter ultimately is why do you care?

Richard P. Feynman built the A Bomb and didnt go on about how retarded people were. Some nookie, some brew,,some tunes, and a warm place to pitch a loaf were all he needed.

I guess I care because when I was a kid if someone in your county went off to be a green beret in VN, came back, went to West Point, then became a trauma surgeon,
Or if some guy was a seal, got out, went to college and then was an aviator if the most kick ass jet,
Grown ups pointed them out as a role model.
Like astronauts on TV were a role model, etc.

Their ability, hard work, persistence, and accomplishments pointed out as role models are Part of the American Dream.

Who are these people pointing out as role models to their kids?

[Averageman]

I guess I care because when I was a kid if someone in your county went off to be a green beret in VN, came back, went to West Point, then became a trauma surgeon,
Or if some guy was a seal, got out, went to college and then was an aviator if the most kick ass jet,
Grown ups pointed them out as a role model.
Like astronauts on TV were a role model, etc.

Their ability, hard work, persistence, and accomplishments pointed out as role models are Part of the American Dream.

Who are these people pointing out as role models to their kids?

Jay z or maybe one of those Football Player's taking a knee on the sidelines?
I've known, worked with, been friends with and have been mentored by some amazing people.
Some of them are as anonymous on the street as anyone else, but they are and are my heroes.
To a Man I don't think that they would give two sh+ts about the opinion others, especially some low T skinny jeans wearing, Prius driving half a queer who's simply a jealous Harpy.

[26 Inf]

I guess I care because when I was a kid if someone in your county went off to be a green beret in VN, came back, went to West Point, then became a trauma surgeon......Their ability, hard work, persistence, and accomplishments pointed out as role models are Part of the American Dream.

Who are these people pointing out as role models to their kids?

I think the first thing I would do is define to myself what I meant by 'high quality American' to ensure that I give my kids the understanding that it is more about how a person comports themselves than it is about what they've achieved.

The folks you've listed are high achievers in dramatic (for lack of a better word) fields, and, IIRC, comport themselves as regular guys. They are, no doubt, worthy role models.

Good role models don't necessarily have to come from dramatic fields. Mr. 'J' was a retired railroader, nothing special, that got involved in a reading program at the elementary school our daughters attended. He impacted every kid there in a positive way.

The thing I've always noticed about good role models is that they generally just see themselves as regular guys and don't want a lot of exposure.

[Firefly]

I may be adrift but 26 gave some food for thought.

My greatest ______ is kind of subjective.

Honestly, some folks were never revealed to have been hardcore until they had died.

Some guys litter a room with their vanity and others put it in a box because it was just a moment in time.

Honestly, it isn't the quality that people "resent", it's the arrogance.

I know people who are good at what they do but really are assholes about it. Doesn't make them less good but again, doesn't make them less asshole either.

Time can help mature some. I have been the smartest man in more than a few rooms but I wasn't the most tactful, mostly due to youth, and it came back on me where I was able to ameliorate aspects in which I had been deficient.

I dont know if you are begrudging the lack of hero worship or the lack of hooah or what.

I get that people are horridly unappreciated and others are fawned over because they cut an album, toss a ball, or are a piece of ass but really....

None of these people be it celebs nor commandos nor whatever affect most peoples everyday lives.

Talk to some much older people. WWII was not this zone troopers boogie woogie boy from Company B affair. A lot of people didnt care about Hawaii, got sick of rationing, and going out and blasting a Kraut or a Nip wasn't glamorous. More than a few figured it was to get people used to rationing permamently.

Most people had a different outlook. They were glad it was over. They thought "That won't happen again, Thank God. Time to live!". They weren't happy for fighting or even winning but glad it was over with.

Vietnam soured a lot of people. It was just a job to career soldiers and almost like a prison sentence to conscripts.

It was mismanaged, kinda pointless in retrospect and not easy.
Not a lot of guys from that era say "Boy oh boy I wish my son gets a chance to go through this!"

I think most people are, if they are involved with their kids, want to instill good ethics than lazily point to some other person and say "oh wow look at him".

Never meet your heroes because all you end up finding is a person.

Like I never had anyone say "So and So shot fitty chinese in Korea and got a pilot license after the war", but I HAVE heard "So and So keeps his word and is a good guy"

I try not to conflate deeds with character. I learned later in life than I would have preferred that they can be two very different things

[MegademiC]

I noticed also, the detractors went straight to character critiquing. A lot of great people are assholes, but only to those who deserve it, imo. Having a spine makes you an asshole these days.

When someone cant take mentoring and constructive critisism, the mentor becomes “an asshole” in their mind. I worked for one of those guys (demanding mentor) Best boss I ever had. I’ve seen him railroad people though, and they earned every bit. Honestly, i just dont pay mind to the complaining anymore.

[ramairthree]

It’s not so much a lack of hero worship I am critiquing.

It was the sense that, when describing someone of 99.99 percentile capability, who combined that with hard work and dedication, and had accomplishments commensurate with that combination...
They viewed them with hostility.

At my old job, 5 years ago, if I said,
Hey, that Keanu actor guy was on a video and he can fight.
He can shoot also.
Someone might respond,
Yeah, I saw that. He has put a lot of time and effort into it. His fighting is on par for all that hard work, solid but nothing awesome. but his shooting, even putting in that much time and effort the majority of people won’t be that good. That guy has some serious potential, he could get better than I ever hope to be.

That response might be coming from a double tabbed guy with SFAUC and SFARTEC under their belt, and a dozen or more three gun matches.

Now, if I brought that up,
The response would be more along the lines of “ whatever, must be nice to have all that time and money. It’s not like anyone else wouldn’t be that good. What kind of Asshole wastes times and money on stuff like that with so much more important stuff in the world.”-
Completely blowing off any factors of natural talent, hard work, dedication, etc.

I find it odd and unsettling.

[Firefly]

I noticed also, the detractors went straight to character critiquing. A lot of great people are assholes, but only to those who deserve it, imo. Having a spine makes you an asshole these days.

When someone cant take mentoring and constructive critisism, the mentor becomes “an asshole” in their mind. I worked for one of those guys (demanding mentor) Best boss I ever had. I’ve seen him railroad people though, and they earned every bit. Honestly, i just dont pay mind to the complaining anymore.

Being an asshole isnt a bad thing. Being a feckless asshole is though.

Like, I knew a guy who was a total asshole but knew his stuff. Didnt always like him but, per your sentiment; didn't railroad people or be petty. The only direction for him was forward and once shit got handled (hard brick shit), he'd take folks off as individuals and sincerely thank them for their effort.

That is Constructive Assholery.

Feckless Assholery is the guy who nitpicks, singles folks out, keeps enemy lists, plays little fck fck games and abuses their position and blames everybody else when nothing gets done.

Somebody has to be the lightning rod and somebody has to be the "good cop".

If people arent bitching AND working then you have failed. If people dont come to you with their problems; then you have failed.

And sometimes it takes...a real DICK to be in charge. All is forgiven if one gets results and doesnt hold a grudge.

Barring that there is always the Woodline or the Locker Room....

[Coal Dragger]

I was in a very high quality density environment in the military.
Guys that stood out even in that environment were sought after, groomed, etc.
Say, everyone was a pilot of jet aircraft. Some were fighter pilots. And in a group when you talked about guys that were a SEAL before they were a pilot and later became a trauma surgeon, or became an astronaut you spoke of them as being a top notch, great dude.

I am retired from the military and in a field with highly educated and highly paid people.
So, to make an example like the above, let’s say everyone is a large passenger airline pilot. But when you mention someone like that, they assume those people must be assholes, or only good on paper.

I knew some people that played serious level college ball, truly 99 percentile athletes. But not the 99.99th percentile ones that went to a pro career. They never talked smack about the true pro level guys, unless it was something true. But it did not occur to them to act like those guys were not really that good.

What is the shift in society that made that switch?

Well I’m only 39 years old, so my generational perspective is mostly having observed the WWII generation, baby boomers, gen X (my cohorts), and millennials. I realize there is a group in there born before the boomers but after the WWII era generation, but my grandparents were all WWII generation so that is the generation I interacted with most where older people were concerned. I’m giving this in the way of background on the observer (me).

I never observed my grandparents display jealousy towards people who achieved a lot in life or who were truly exceptional. They seemed to genuinely revere many of them, kind of in a hero worship way. Please note that not a lot of time was spent in my formative years engaged in conversations about my grandparents peers who were exceptional. So I cannot rule out that my grandparents thought some of them were only good on paper, or were just lucky, etc. They kept those sentiments to themselves though.

My parents are baby boomers. I have more experience here because of exposure to more of them. Definitely observed a lot of the behaviors you are describing with baby boomers. Not necessarily my parents, although there were and are instances. Perhaps this phenomenon of open criticism, even making up criticism became more acceptable with baby boomers?

My own generation is chock full of people like you describe. Same for millennials.

So if we’re looking for a chronology here, I submit my very inaccurate, anecdotal data points.

I suspect that the resentment, jealousy, envy, and desire to denigrate high achievers is as old as time. Maybe older generations were better at keeping those thoughts to themselves because they had better manners. So their outward appearances and statements indicated a lack of the behavior you are describing even though the underlying mental foundation was still there.

There’s also probably a confirmation bias issue with you Ramairthree. By your own admission you spent a great deal of your adult life among very high achieving individuals in the military. Guys who were physically and mentally gifted in a lot of cases. Generally speaking whiny little baby dicks don’t make it into units you were with. So you didn’t have to be exposed to them as much.

Now you’re in the civilian sector and find that even highly educated people that make lots of money, don’t always appreciate the achievements of the 99.99 percentile who are gifted. Welcome to the world most of us already inhabit; where wasting time running people down who are better, bickering, and bitching are easier paths than admiring the 99.99 percentile achievers and striving to be like them.

[ramairthree]

Yeah,
I guess I can’t totally set apart what is modern society changes vs what is civilian compared to military.

I think it is part both.

We live in a society that basically tells everyone to get educated, rich, successfully, and have everything they want and buy!buy!buy! But when all is said and done, and luck/fortunate circumstances are taken out of the equation, the vast majority of people are not mentally, physically, and psychologically equipped for the big leagues. So resentment, etc. set in. Previously, it was pretty clear in society the flag turner on the road project was not going to have the pay and lifestyle of the skilled equipment operator, the engineer in charge of the project, or the lucky guy who inherited the land the project was being put in on.

The military offers limited advancement compared to civilian. An infantry officer comes ROTC, blows Ranger School, is mechanized, gets a basic training company command, etc. etc. in four years he is a captain, ten a major, fifteen or so a LTC, around 20 a Colonel. Another Infantry Officer comes out of West Point, has a platoon in the 82, a tour in Ranger Regt, becomes SF or an Operator, gets competive commands, etc. at best he might be a Colonel Two years before the other guy, but maybe the same. Maybe in that environment recognition by peers is easier to give.

[Coal Dragger]

Then you have the guys who are shooting stars and actually make flag rank after a competitive career.

[Firefly]

Ramairthree,

I'm sorry man, but you just wont ever be a Roman Centurion.

[Safetyhit]

Jealousy, plain and simple. People regret that they were not able to accomplish all they wanted to in life, or that they do not have the intelligence or physical ability to ever do it even if they tried. It sucks feeling inferior, especially in America where everyone wants to be bigger and better.

Sounds about right. Certainly not always the case but close enough.