13 hour battle leaves 40 + dead

[WillBrink]

Getting very little media attention, as people too focused on Trump calling places S holes and such. Pretty serious terrorist attack, but "only" Kabul, so no chits given apparently:

Kabul Intercontinental Hotel siege leaves more than 40 dead, Afghanistan official says

More than 40 people were killed after Taliban gunmen stormed the Intercontinental Hotel in Afghanistan's capital on Saturday, a government official told Fox News on Sunday.

The assault by six "heavily-armed" assailants pinned down security forces for more than 13 hours before the last attacker was killed, as guests were forced to flee the building while parts of the structure caught fire.

Some guests couple be seen shimmying down tied-together bedsheets from upper-floor windows, while others were rescued by Afghan forces. The heavily-guarded luxury hotel is popular among foreigners and Afghan officials.

Cont:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/01/21/kabul-intercontinental-hotel-siege-leaves-more-than-40-dead-afghanistan-official-says.html

[dwhitehorne]

This incident is my biggest concern at work. We have lots of equipment but more than two attackers with coordinated movement and US law enforcement would be overwhelmed pretty quick. David

[TAZ]

Nobody gives a hoot cause no Americans were killed apparently. Mostly Afghanis killing Afghanis. I’m honestly surprised that foreigners travel to that shithole and stay at a hotel.

[ABNAK]

Nobody gives a hoot cause no Americans were killed apparently. Mostly Afghanis killing Afghanis. I’m honestly surprised that foreigners travel to that shithole and stay at a hotel.

Right, and exactly what constitutes a "luxury" hotel by Afghan standards? Would it be a one-star anywhere else?

[AndyLate]

I am more upset that Turkey is bombing Kurds in Syria and the U.S. is doing nothing.

Afghanistan is a shit hole and they have been killing each other since way before I was born, and they will be killing each other long after I am in the ground.

Andy

[soulezoo]

Nobody gives a hoot cause no Americans were killed apparently. Mostly Afghanis killing Afghanis. I’m honestly surprised that foreigners travel to that shithole and stay at a hotel.

Hey! How dare you call that wonderful place of diverse people a shithole! Racist! *sarcasm*

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I am more upset that Turkey is bombing Kurds in Syria and the U.S. is doing nothing.





This.

[BoringGuy45]

This incident is my biggest concern at work. We have lots of equipment but more than two attackers with coordinated movement and US law enforcement would be overwhelmed pretty quick. David

My worry as well. The U.S. has never had to deal with a lot of the terrorism the rest of the world has. As a result, we have never really prepared to deal with it. We've had major bombings (OKC, 9/11, Boston Marathon, etc) and a lot of loan wolf attacks, but never any boots-on-the-ground, paramilitary attacks from well equipped and trained hostile groups, massive hostage takings, hijackings, etc. We only have one domestic law enforcement counterterrorism unit in the FBI's HRT, and even they have never really dealt with a major incident on U.S. soil. They've functioned more as a "super SWAT team" than a true counterterrorism unit. From what I understand, we're still playing catch up to most of the rest of the developed world in terms of domestic counterterrorism capabilities. In most of those countries, counterterror units are either military special operations units dedicated to domestic counterterrorism, such as the UK's SAS CRW or the Netherlands' Marine Corps UIM, or they are police officers trained for actual special operations and combat, such as France's GIGN, Israel's Yamam, Germany's GSG9, etc. It also seems like the U.S. treats terrorism on our soil as a criminal/public safety issue. Most other countries treat it as an act of war.

I honestly don't know what needs to be done. I am 100% certain that no change to our domestic CT abilities will occur until we have something like the Moscow Theater siege or Mumbai attacks. There will be a lot of dead civilians, and a lot of dead cops. If it occurred outside the DC area, it would be hours before HRT could even get on scene. What changes would need to be made afterward? I don't know.

[CRAMBONE]

Right, and exactly what constitutes a "luxury" hotel by Afghan standards? Would it be a one-star anywhere else?

Maybe 3. Was one of the few remaining that NGOs put their people up in.

[sundance435]

My worry as well. The U.S. has never had to deal with a lot of the terrorism the rest of the world has. As a result, we have never really prepared to deal with it. We've had major bombings (OKC, 9/11, Boston Marathon, etc) and a lot of loan wolf attacks, but never any boots-on-the-ground, paramilitary attacks from well equipped and trained hostile groups, massive hostage takings, hijackings, etc. We only have one domestic law enforcement counterterrorism unit in the FBI's HRT, and even they have never really dealt with a major incident on U.S. soil. They've functioned more as a "super SWAT team" than a true counterterrorism unit. From what I understand, we're still playing catch up to most of the rest of the developed world in terms of domestic counterterrorism capabilities. In most of those countries, counterterror units are either military special operations units dedicated to domestic counterterrorism, such as the UK's SAS CRW or the Netherlands' Marine Corps UIM, or they are police officers trained for actual special operations and combat, such as France's GIGN, Israel's Yamam, Germany's GSG9, etc. It also seems like the U.S. treats terrorism on our soil as a criminal/public safety issue. Most other countries treat it as an act of war.

I honestly don't know what needs to be done. I am 100% certain that no change to our domestic CT abilities will occur until we have something like the Moscow Theater siege or Mumbai attacks. There will be a lot of dead civilians, and a lot of dead cops. If it occurred outside the DC area, it would be hours before HRT could even get on scene. What changes would need to be made afterward? I don't know.

First, FBI has regional SWAT out of various field offices whose training is probably a notch below HRT, but above your average city of 50,000's SWAT team. Most states have their own statewide SWAT teams, too. Second, you're talking about countries as small as Connecticut to no bigger than Texas, where it's a lot easier to get tip-of-the-spear people to places in a short amount of time. Third, I would place many of the mid to large metro SWAT teams at least on par with the best Moscow or Mumbai police could come up with - disregarding the fact that those were multi-day incidents where you would have time to bring in something like HRT - and many of them cross-train with HRT and special forces. There is no place in the world, except maybe Kabul and Baghdad, where you'd have the right personnel resources to respond to something like that/this within 15 minutes. In the U.S., on the other hand, almost every city/county with more than 50,000 people has a SWAT team (which is not common around the world) and they do train for these kinds of scenarios, albeit probably not for 5+ attackers, which itself would be difficult to pull off here. I would also argue that it's a lot harder to carry out an operation like this in the U.S. than any of the countries mentioned for various reasons. We are about as prepared, balanced against practicality, as we can be.

Finally, as long as we have a Constitution, these events are properly treated, at least initially, as policing events.

[dwhitehorne]

Sundance I’m not sure where you live but I’m in DC every day training people. We have had two rifle shootings that have occurred since I have been in training. Both were done by patrol because SWAT is always 30 minutes out. We have two full time teams on my Department alone. Getting the team together and at a location for a coordinated response would take time. I went to Fairfax Virginia PD for an instructor course on PACOP (Paramilitary Attack Counter Offensive Plan) a few years ago. It was basically a fire team level small unit tactics class. Telling a US LEO to fire and maneuver providing cover fire across a parking lot while taking fire gets a lot of questions. It was a very good for are thinking program. We spent 4 hours on it during In-Service a few years ago and haven’t since. Think of the training people had in boot camp on repelling and assault and then never getting it again. US law enforcement is not prepared for a fire team level gunfight. David

[sundance435]

Sundance I’m not sure where you live but I’m in DC every day training people. We have had two rifle shootings that have occurred since I have been in training. Both were done by patrol because SWAT is always 30 minutes out. We have two full time teams on my Department alone. Getting the team together and at a location for a coordinated response would take time. I went to Fairfax Virginia PD for an instructor course on PACOP (Paramilitary Attack Counter Offensive Plan) a few years ago. It was basically a fire team level small unit tactics class. Telling a US LEO to fire and maneuver providing cover fire across a parking lot while taking fire gets a lot of questions. It was a very good for are thinking program. We spent 4 hours on it during In-Service a few years ago and haven’t since. Think of the training people had in boot camp on repelling and assault and then never getting it again. US law enforcement is not prepared for a fire team level gunfight. David

I don't think we're disagreeing about anything - I was only talking about SWAT teams, not patrol guys - I said the only places in the world where you'll have a trained QRF on-scene within 15 minutes are in active warzones. SWAT is at least 30 mins out in most places. There's no practical way around the current state of affairs, but I still think we're as prepared as any of the European countries mentioned due to the proliferation of SWAT here, certainly more than India, considering the size of our country.

[NYH1]

Aren't a lot of the FBI-HRT guys former SOF guys?

NYH1.

[BoringGuy45]

Aren't a lot of the FBI-HRT guys former SOF guys?

NYH1.

From what I understand, most HRT operators are not in their first go around with a special operations/tactical unit. According to Chris Whitcomb's book, most of the candidates in his selection class were former SEALs, Rangers, SF, Force Recon Marines, Delta, etc., as well as a lot of guys from FBI and local LE SWAT teams. Whitcomb was one of the few who had no related experience. However, if I remember correctly, of the six other guys selected with him, only one guy, a former Ranger, was from any SOF unit.

One thing I didn't know about HRT, is that they're probably the only American CT/tactical unit that is airborne qualified (at least some operators are, according to the FBI website).

[Combat_Diver]

The Kabul incident has my attentions since its only 45 miles to the south. Reference LE role in the US is because of the Posse Comitatus act 1878 prohibits US military involvement. Even in advisor roles to the FBI we've had to back out ie Waco.


CD

[NYH1]

From what I understand, most HRT operators are not in their first go around with a special operations/tactical unit. According to Chris Whitcomb's book, most of the candidates in his selection class were former SEALs, Rangers, SF, Force Recon Marines, Delta, etc., as well as a lot of guys from FBI and local LE SWAT teams. Whitcomb was one of the few who had no related experience. However, if I remember correctly, of the six other guys selected with him, only one guy, a former Ranger, was from any SOF unit.

One thing I didn't know about HRT, is that they're probably the only American CT/tactical unit that is airborne qualified (at least some operators are, according to the FBI website).
I was bored as heck one night and came across Brand Webb's SOFREP site. They were talking with a guy that was former USMC Recon then MARSOC. He said a lot of HRT guys are former SOF guys. That his unit actually did some sniper and urban training with HRT somewhere out west. Said HRT is as legit as any like unit he's ever trained/served with. I remember LAV speaking highly of them as well.

Oh, MARSOC dude said HRT has their own helicoters.

NYH1.