View Full Version : Reset - why the BIG deal?
Every time a gun is reviewed or commented on these days, if the trigger reset isn’t as short as a Glock, it’s trigger either sucks or is “really lacking”. I’m not good enough to “use” super short reset so I asked a friend who competes and trains under professionals about the need for short reset. He says it doesn’t matter and that many champs teach full extension of the trigger finger - controlled slapping. So, why all the fuss about super short reset?
Every time a gun is reviewed or commented on these days, if the trigger reset isn’t as short as a Glock, it’s trigger either sucks or is “really lacking”. I’m not good enough to “use” super short reset so I asked a friend who competes and trains under professionals about the need for short reset. He says it doesn’t matter and that many champs teach full extension of the trigger finger - controlled slapping. So, why all the fuss about super short reset?
I suspect it gives them something to talk about that makes them sound savvy. I concur with your friends - finger should come all the way off the trigger between shots. Some call it "flicking the booger."
I've even stopped using the technique where new shooters are taught to listen for the reset as a way of understanding how the trigger operates. Too many never stop doing it. I've been on the line with folks during a qual course and I can hear the click as they release the trigger after follow through. Trying to break them of that is an exercise in frustration.
Every time a gun is reviewed or commented on these days, if the trigger reset isn’t as short as a Glock, it’s trigger either sucks or is “really lacking”. I’m not good enough to “use” super short reset so I asked a friend who competes and trains under professionals about the need for short reset. He says it doesn’t matter and that many champs teach full extension of the trigger finger - controlled slapping. So, why all the fuss about super short reset?
I havent heard or felt reset in a couple years. Reset under recoil. My 25yd groups shrunk when i started doing it, even though i thiught they would open up.
The only possible benefit ( and i have yet to test it), is a heavier reset leading to faster followups. Im skeptical but a NY trigger is cheap so why not try?
Edit, finger either comes off the trigger, or at least well past the reset point. I havent slo-motion videod myself with my current setup to know.
ramairthree
01-23-18, 07:37
It depends.
How light you can go on a trigger will differ from shooter to shooter,
To a point it is too light for anything.
How short a reset can become will differ from shooter to shooter, to a point it does not matter.
I have done some aftermarket triggers I get a benefit from, and others not.
I have come to a point where I will have someone shoot a 92FS followed by a 92D then back to a 92FS.
If they are at a reasonable level of speed and accuracy as a shooter they will be hindered by the heavier trigger pull, and notice the longer reset as an issue as well. I guess you could do the same with a factory Glock vs NY trigger one, but I never have any left with that set up. It is not as subtle a difference as your factory Glock, XDM, etc. vs aftermarket trigger. If they don’t notice the detriment / have a worse performance with the 92D I tell them to keep shooting whatever they have for a while, they don’t need to consider an aftermarket trigger yet.
While I notice the difference very readily with the Beretta example given, I often find a lot of aftermarket triggers people want me to try to be of no substantial benefit to me. Yet for more gifted and trained shooters it can.
I've never really understood the big deal either. I mainly shoot a G19 and everyone talks about hearing and feeling the reset with the Glocks. I also shoot a M&P 45 middy and I've heard the reset sucks with the M&P's. I'm just as fast and more accurate with the M&P. I shoot what works for me and go from there.
Because it makes it easier for less savvy people.
Handgunnery is suffering a bit of a brain drain thanks to the accessibility of the Glock.
Everybody trains around the Glock.
I like the Glock but honestly, I could take most people to school with a Classic Smith Auto or a 1911 (caliber irrelevant).
Are they "better" guns? Overall, no. Not at all. But people of the current generation only know the Glock on a good day.
Pulling the trigger is the easiest part
Because it makes it easier for less savvy people.
Handgunnery is suffering a bit of a brain drain thanks to the accessibility of the Glock.
Everybody trains around the Glock.
I like the Glock but honestly, I could take most people to school with a Classic Smith Auto or a 1911 (caliber irrelevant).
Are they "better" guns? Overall, no. Not at all. But people of the current generation only know the Glock on a good day.
Pulling the trigger is the easiest part
I would say pulling it properly is the hardest part. Or did i miss your point?
Edit- this is going outside the scope if this thread. I guess the question (for this thread) is what part of releasing the teigger is causing you issues? I can only think of moving the gun, short stroking, or taking an excessive amount of time. As long as the trigger is reasonable ( subjective i guess), i would call any issues a training issue.
I am a pretty accomplished pistol shooter and having a clear reset point ( how you use it is up to you) is definitely helpful in getting feedback the gun is ready to go bang again. The 1911 has it as does the glock and many others. Interestingly I shoot a revolver best which pretty much requires full return of the trigger forward for the next shot so maybe it is all in my head. One gun I have tried to like but can’t with the lack of a discernible reset is the browning high power. Some highly skilled shooters are advocating a full release and slap and it certainly works for them at a high skill level, but for most of us mortals using a reset is probably more effective. Very few shooters can attain the skill level where they can be adequately accurate with the full release slap method
I would say pulling it properly is the hardest part. Or did i miss your point?
Edit- this is going outside the scope if this thread. I guess the question (for this thread) is what part of releasing the teigger is causing you issues? I can only think of moving the gun, short stroking, or taking an excessive amount of time. As long as the trigger is reasonable ( subjective i guess), i would call any issues a training issue.
If you have practiced proper trigger pulling, then it is relatively the easiest thing compared to flash shooting and movement. All combat handgunnery is dynamic.
Simply dry firing with no front sight movement and getting a good rigor down makes it easier to focus on the rest.
Glocks with their more pronounced reset have made it easier, but it is not everything as people wanna focus on the reset and the sponginess juxtaposed to cadence of fire and follow-through.
Like the Rogers School has some courses of fire that perfectly illustrate that trigger pull is 1/5 the battle. Glock makes it easier and set this kinda "standard" for reset but moving and reloading under stress is arguably more difficult.
You only get so much of a window at handgun distance. I would LOVE if every handgun fight was at 50-75 yds. That becomes more skill oriented and eliminates the margin of error of the adversary.
However most armed confrontation is within 3 yards. Think Traffic stops, muggings, or a quick and dirty. Add to that the deficiency of initiative or position of disadvantage. At that point clearing leather and workspace management take precedence over the "best" trigger form.
I can get "good enough" results from a jerk or a snatch at 3 yards with a good flash/point alignment, but at 50 yds; I'd be a foot off.
Like, if you aren't dry firing with what you carry most several times a week perfectly then you won't have it committed to muscle memory. Save for a clean clearance of the holster. Speed comes with smoothness.
It's all relative and maybe I can't word it like how I'm trying to but my thesis is when S happens then your trigger control is homework you should have already had done already because the other stuff is a bit more intense.
I guess to be parsimonious, I would only worry about the gun you most carry. The basics of trigger work is universal. But if you have time to worry about reset amidst recoil and grabbing cover or creating distance (or doing a rush) then you are either thinking too much or too slow.
JMO
I suspect it gives them something to talk about that makes them sound savvy. I concur with your friends - finger should come all the way off the trigger between shots. Some call it "flicking the booger."
I think 'flicking the booger' works for some, for most not so good. The person needs to be able to do it quickly and smoothly with no alteration of pressure in the grip holding the pistol. Most folks aren't able to do that, they will begin to clinch.
Your trigger finger as well as your mind has to able to disassociate itself from sound and recoil pressure. IMO the best way to teach someone this method is to take a virgin shooter and use a suppressed .22 - no sound, no recoil.
Shooters that are adept 'booger flippers' generally have hundreds of thousands of rounds under their belt, a rigid grip and a learned no aversion to the pressures of recoil or sound. They simply don't care.
Bill Rogers, who, among others, teaches press, flip, press, in his courses, didn't get to the level he has achieved by shooting 50 rounds a month.
If you have practiced proper trigger pulling, then it is relatively the easiest thing compared to flash shooting and movement. All combat handgunnery is dynamic.
Simply dry firing with no front sight movement and getting a good rigor down makes it easier to focus on the rest.
Glocks with their more pronounced reset have made it easier, but it is not everything as people wanna focus on the reset and the sponginess juxtaposed to cadence of fire and follow-through.
Like the Rogers School has some courses of fire that perfectly illustrate that trigger pull is 1/5 the battle. Glock makes it easier and set this kinda "standard" for reset but moving and reloading under stress is arguably more difficult.
You only get so much of a window at handgun distance. I would LOVE if every handgun fight was at 50-75 yds. That becomes more skill oriented and eliminates the margin of error of the adversary.
However most armed confrontation is within 3 yards. Think Traffic stops, muggings, or a quick and dirty. Add to that the deficiency of initiative or position of disadvantage. At that point clearing leather and workspace management take precedence over the "best" trigger form.
I can get "good enough" results from a jerk or a snatch at 3 yards with a good flash/point alignment, but at 50 yds; I'd be a foot off.
Like, if you aren't dry firing with what you carry most several times a week perfectly then you won't have it committed to muscle memory. Save for a clean clearance of the holster. Speed comes with smoothness.
It's all relative and maybe I can't word it like how I'm trying to but my thesis is when S happens then your trigger control is homework you should have already had done already because the other stuff is a bit more intense.
I guess to be parsimonious, I would only worry about the gun you most carry. The basics of trigger work is universal. But if you have time to worry about reset amidst recoil and grabbing cover or creating distance (or doing a rush) then you are either thinking too much or too slow.
JMO
Agreed. I was talking about the shooting part only.
I practice smashing the trigger during dry fire. My shooting improved immensely when i began doing that, because -like you said- you dont have to think about it during a course of fire. Instead of thinking “align sights, smooth press” you can start thinking, “make a shot here, reload between barricades, make that shot on those targets there”.
As for follow-through, it shouldnt matter if you pin the trigger or reset under recoil, the shot should go in the same place. IMO you should do the same thing whether you are shooting bullseyes at 25yd or doing a FASTest or bill drill with .2s splits. At least thats what works for me, ymmv.
Reset probably matters to people shooting at a very high level, crisp wise. When I pull the trigger and the gun goes bang the only thing I notice is that I'm back on target. I don't notice it, I think a short reset is probably a good thing so as to prevent short stroking it. I don't short stroke my Kahr PM9 or S&W Bodyguard after shooting my G26 though.
I don't short stroke my Kahr PM9 or S&W Bodyguard after shooting my G26 though.
Same here. I think the P30 gets a bad rap because it has a long reset. But, it's my go-to training pistol and it's never been an issue for me. Does it have a longer reset than a Glock? Yep. But I only really notice it when I'm not shooting it.
LMT Shooter
01-24-18, 20:20
I don't really get it, either. I kinda think that it is mainly a tool for getting lesser experienced shooters to maintain their focus on trigger control or getting used to the trigger of a new gun.
I shot someone else's pistol a year or two ago, and I remember feeling for the reset, which I do when shooting a new gun sometimes, and the gun would not fire when I pulled the trigger after feeling the first click, you had to release it further. I don't remember if there was a second click or not. I pointed this out, and a few others shot the pistol & felt the same thing. I think the pistol in question was an unmodified Taurus compact of some sort.
Riding a reset slowly is something to be done when your trying out a new gun and the first range trip with it.
I release pressure after the shot breaks and let trigger go forward. I do not let my finger off the trigger entirely though.
A good reset is nice because it prompts me that I can start pressing it again. (Duh, right?)
Glocks have light triggers with a great reset, but everything else about the trigger stinks.
Like many who have been shooting a long time I can shoot most pistols decently unless the trigger is really heavy (stock j frame) or really heavy and just bad. (Taurus/rossi revolver)
The Beretta da/sa pistols don't have a strong reset but it's good enough.
I'll take a a nice press over a great reset.
QuickStrike
01-25-18, 11:11
Hum... I know of it but honestly have not been conscious of it when I shoot lately.
Not once while shooting have I ever felt or "heard" the reset, unless I shoot goofy slow.
Every time member of Church of Holy Short Reset tells me that you can't shoot fast and accurate without super short reset, I show first that:
https://youtu.be/CqqhSSiU_j8?t=2m37s (Rob Leatham on trigger reset)
the I show that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FbUMqoyjDw (Jerry Miculek shoots Double Action revolver)
If this does not spark mental process, that means I have hard case of fanatical belief on hand and it is not worth do discuss matter anymore. I like my head on top of my neck, you know ;)
Personally, I never had a problem with trigger reset in my USP Expert or P30L LEM. Actually between Expert and P30L for 4 years I shot custom STI 2011 with very short reset. When I went back to P30L I had exactly zero problems with shooting P30L with much longer reset. Now I shoot SFP9-SF (VP9), but not due to shorter reset (it is shorter than in P30), but because of my long fingers I prefer trigger break point to be further forward. SFP9/VP9 gives ne that.
hopetonbrown
01-26-18, 10:49
Personally, I never had a problem with trigger reset in my USP Expert or P30L LEM.
What are your Bill Drill times with your P30 vs VP9?
Every time a gun is reviewed or commented on these days, if the trigger reset isn’t as short as a Glock, it’s trigger either sucks or is “really lacking”. I’m not good enough to “use” super short reset so I asked a friend who competes and trains under professionals about the need for short reset. He says it doesn’t matter and that many champs teach full extension of the trigger finger - controlled slapping. So, why all the fuss about super short reset?
"Not as short as a Glock"...they said that? The reset on a 1911 is minuscule compared to a Glock or any plastic gun. IMO, reset is wwwaaaayyy overrated. Most of my shooting is going as fast as I can and still hit, and in those circumstances I don't notice reset at all. When I shoot slowly, again, I really don't notice it.
It’s great for guys doing slow fire range shooting, which unfortunately is a huge part of the gun owning population (whether by choice or restrictive range rules). In fast-paced, competition, self defense, or combat shooting, it's unlikely to even be noticed, much less ridden.
A friend of mine who was a big proponent of ‘riding the reset’ at all times was shooting a local match and had a dud primer in his P229. Not only did he miss the reset, he released the trigger so far he did another DA pull and the second strike set off the round.
A friend of mine who was a big proponent of ‘riding the reset’ at all times was shooting a local match and had a dud primer in his P229. Not only did he miss the reset, he released the trigger so far he did another DA pull and the second strike set off the round.
I missed something here. Why was riding the reset bad in this scenario?
hopetonbrown
01-26-18, 14:16
I missed something here. Why was riding the reset bad in this scenario?https://youtu.be/9qbCSpcrOsw
Not once while shooting have I ever felt or "heard" the reset, unless I shoot goofy slow.
I think you did. Otherwise how would you know you could press the trigger again? :)
https://youtu.be/9qbCSpcrOsw
I totally agree with this. Riding the reset slowly is generally dumb unless learning the trigger of a new pistol.
When say I "ride the reset" I mean my finger stays in contact with the trigger during the reset. Even when the split time .2s. I believe in controlling the trigger during release and smoothly pressing it again if needed as opposed to coming off of it entirely then slapping it.
jackblack73
01-26-18, 14:53
https://youtu.be/9qbCSpcrOsw
I don't know that I've ever actually heard someone instruct to hold the trigger while aiming. Maybe I need to get out more.
I totally agree with this. Riding the reset slowly is generally dumb unless learning the trigger of a new pistol.
When say I "ride the reset" I mean my finger stays in contact with the trigger during the reset. Even when the split time .2s. I believe in controlling the trigger during release and smoothly pressing it again if needed as opposed to coming off of it entirely then slapping it.
With glocks, there is a huge distance between the reset and the trigger being fully out. No need to control the trigger during reset. You can, with practice reset during recoil and make an accurate, fast followup.
Im a proponent of “slapping” the trigger, but its controlled. It takes a lot of dry fire practice, but the idea is that the speed of press doesnt dictate accuracy, the sight picture does. Waiting until the gun cycles to reset is wasted time.
With glocks, there is a huge distance between the reset and the trigger being fully out. No need to control the trigger during reset. You can, with practice reset during recoil and make an accurate, fast followup.
Im a proponent of “slapping” the trigger, but its controlled. It takes a lot of dry fire practice, but the idea is that the speed of press doesnt dictate accuracy, the sight picture does. Waiting until the gun cycles to reset is wasted time.
We have a weird miscommunication going on. Ah well, it happens.
When I first started shooting higher volume, but before I had much good instruction on a handgun, I could shoot a Glock fairly well riding the reset. At up close drills I could almost bump fire a Glock 19. I was impressive fast.
I never won a match until I opened my ears and learned to slap the trigger...
Every time member of Church of Holy Short Reset tells me that you can't shoot fast and accurate without super short reset, I show first that:
https://youtu.be/CqqhSSiU_j8?t=2m37s (Rob Leatham on trigger reset)
the I show that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FbUMqoyjDw (Jerry Miculek shoots Double Action revolver)
If this does not spark mental process, that means I have hard case of fanatical belief on hand and it is not worth do discuss matter anymore. I like my head on top of my neck, you know ;)
Yep, it sparks something.
I shot Leatham's guns. They have as short a reset as it comes.
Miculek's revo was S&W tuned thing with a short trigger travel throw.
What I don't understand about these discussions is the following: how is a question about mechanical attributes of a trigger has anything to do with a correct (letting trigger clear past a reset point) vs incorrect (trying to let it out just to the reset point) techniques of resetting a gun? Whether you're doing it one way or another, shorter reset means less finger travel either way. Techniques like flip and press does make you less reset sensitive but you still have more margin for error with a shorter reset. So, yes, I want a short one on my gats.
I think in a training environment to start off with maybe it could be useful, and for competition too. All the gun manipulation as I understand it should be automatic, instinctive eventually. The reloading, slide manipulation, I would think that's the stuff you shouldn't have to think about during an actual gunfight. If someone is shooting at you I would think tactics would be the first chore, then the gun stuff. And if you change guns if your a good shooter or at least a conscious shooter you'll adapt to the gun. If I was issued a stock Glock or one with a NY trigger I'd have to just work with it. A real "shooter" will make the best of it and get hits, only real issue actually, get hits. 5 yards or 50 years you got to get hits right?
I think gun writers use reset as a gauge, I mean they got to find a way to compare different weapons. Reset is a thing, like sight radius, or grip texture, or trigger weight. I guess its just a dynamic to talk about. But it can be debated, like sight picture at speed, or distance. Do you spend a whole lot of time looking for that front sight at 3 yards and apposed to 25? I don't think so I mean you know, again if your a good or conscious shooter, what you can and can not get away with.
It's a talking point really. Depending on what school you go to you'll get different ideas on how to do the same thing. I mean look at how complicated someone can make reloading!
Anyway just a thought.
Ed
I hate to say this, but if you get out and learn to shoot your guns fast, you will learn that a lot of trigger hype is minutia. . .You will never care. What you will care about is trigger pull weights over 7 lbs, trigger pull weights under 2-3lbs, weird creep or stacking and maybe no feeling reset.
Ultimately, a well pulled trigger at speed feels like a staple gun. The exact feel doesn't matter. Light triggers have the "feeling" of letting rounds go early. . .this can be unnerving and slow you down. Heavy triggers feel slow and make you inaccurate because the release after your sights pass the POA. Creep is the same.
What are your Bill Drill times with your P30 vs VP9?
I do not know. Never shot Bill Drill (really, most ranges in my immediate area does not allow shooting from so close distance, mostly 10m, usually 15m). But you can see me shooting P30L V4 in IPSC match here and decide yourself if it is fast enough for you or not. Take in mind that on most targets I shoot for accuracy, not speed: https://youtu.be/tDXNwRUwC2I?t=3m4s
I missed something here. Why was riding the reset bad in this scenario?
It wasn’t, because he wasn’t. He was convinced he was just barely letting the trigger move far enough to reset the Sig SRT (which is a very short reset). Under the pressure of time, he was actually letting his finger go far further; far enough to completely reset the trigger in DA, not ‘just barely’ forward enough to use the short reset.
shadowrider
01-29-18, 09:43
If people would shoot a DA revolver enough to get somewhat proficient at it semi-auto reset wouldn't an issue when they pick one up. People look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I tell them I actually prefer the DA revolver trigger. The reality is that you can run them at speed and you get more time to get the sights situated for the next shot during the trigger cycle. This drops the learning curve of proper semi-auto trigger discipline. In a perfect world classes could start out with a DA revolver and switch over to an auto but sadly there's just not enough time for students to get proficient with the revo.
ramairthree
01-29-18, 11:21
I do not know. Never shot Bill Drill (really, most ranges in my immediate area does not allow shooting from so close distance, mostly 10m, usually 15m). But you can see me shooting P30L V4 in IPSC match here and decide yourself if it is fast enough for you or not. Take in mind that on most targets I shoot for accuracy, not speed: https://youtu.be/tDXNwRUwC2I?t=3m4s
You are certainly shooting enough that the long reset of a 92G is going to be a noticeable hinderance vs a 92FS or G.
However, most other differences, say stock Glock vs aftermarket, XDM vs M&P, stock vs tuned CZ, stock Beretta vs some honing and a D spring, are much more subtle. More subtle than will make a significant improvement to me in a typical USPSA type stage.
A pair of plate racks in a row, close, or some further out plates I may note a little better accuracy.
Think of it like this.
A decent driver is going to notice an improvement in his quarter mile time at the drag strip or around a basic road course in a Challenger R/T, Mustang GT, or Camaro SS vs in a Honda Accord, Nissan Maxima, or Toyato Camry.
It will make no difference to a shitty driver.
But, a decent driver, in a Challenger SRT May have trouble hooking up and have no vast improvemnt in the quarter mile vs the RT. He may get around the track no faster in a Boss Mustang vs the GT or a Z28 vs the SS.
After a lot of training and experience he may note a difference, but at those levels innate, natural ability plays a role to make a serious difference. I have had a fair amount of training and experience. However, I am probably the crappiest shooter I know for the level of training.
However, people that would do no better in the Boss vs the GT, or even the Accord, run out and buy the Z28s, Boss Mustangs, Shelbies, Corvettes, SRTs, etc. and post endlessly on how much better they are. And they are better.
Think of it like this.
I also often use car references, but mine are more about things like Lancia Delta Intergale, Miltsubishi Lancer Evolution, BMW M3, cornering, wet roads, snow, gravel, etc. ;)
But in this case car analogy does not work so good. In pistol during recoil you have long enough time to take finger completely off the trigger (if you watch LEM hammer movements on my video, you will see that I'm doing just that or almost that) and go back on the trigger before front sight tracks back for follow-up shot. Does not really matter if reset is under 0.070" like I had my STI set up or it is 0.295" like I had it on P30L LEM. Now, if it was an inch, I would probably think that it is a bit too long for me. Maybe that is why I do not shoot Para LDA or DA wheelguns ;) But when releasing an prepping trigger on recoil, you will not feel reset point "click". It just isn't here. To feel it you need to have slide in battery. That means pistol already did full recoil cycle, sights are back on target and it just is waste of time to do reset now.
Now, that I think, there is car analogy. It even works driving in straight line, no snow covered corners needed. Imagine you are accelerating and shifting gears. You can do it in two general ways:
1. Press clutch - keep clutch down - shift gear - release clutch
2. Shift gear while you are pressing and releasing clutch as constant motion
In second scenario you are off-power for shorter time and gear stick travel does not matter (if it is reasonable of course), as it is simultaneous motion that is more important.
Alaskapopo
02-03-18, 00:12
I suspect it gives them something to talk about that makes them sound savvy. I concur with your friends - finger should come all the way off the trigger between shots. Some call it "flicking the booger."
I've even stopped using the technique where new shooters are taught to listen for the reset as a way of understanding how the trigger operates. Too many never stop doing it. I've been on the line with folks during a qual course and I can hear the click as they release the trigger after follow through. Trying to break them of that is an exercise in frustration.
I prefer short reset triggers as there is less chance of trigger freeze when you don't come far enough foward to allow the trigger to reset. Rob Leatham comes all the way off and it works well for him. Personally I do like to not fling my finger off the trigger between shots.
Pat
Car talk should be banned on gun sights. Period.
The more I ask and the more I read and shoot, the more I think short reset is a canard. Thanks folks.
1) How does one reset a Glock trigger under recoil when the Glock trigger does not reset until the slide has returned to battery?
2) I have been told it's impossible for a shooter to react fast enough to release their finger from the trigger and reset before the slide has returned to battery. If this is true, how can anyone reset under recoil?
ramairthree
02-03-18, 10:57
Again,
There is a lot of overthinking going on.
As has been noted,
Trigger pull weight can be so light it’s deteimental, and so heavy it’s detrimental.
Very long reset can be deteimental. For an example I use the Beretta 92D vs an FS or G.
Go try it. Unless you are very slow and suck you will see the difference.
Once you get down to a reasonable length of reset...
I don’t don’t see a performance gain between minute differences or notice it. Perhaps a world class shooter does, but another does not.
Any further talk of banning car talk, or talk involving attractive women, alcohol, watches, knives, etc. should be met with the James Bond bottomless chair ball whipping torture.
1) How does one reset a Glock trigger under recoil when the Glock trigger does not reset until the slide has returned to battery?
2) I have been told it's impossible for a shooter to react fast enough to release their finger from the trigger and reset before the slide has returned to battery. If this is true, how can anyone reset under recoil?
1. It resets as the slide moves into battery, while the gun is cycling.
2. High speed video validates its done. Ill find some when i get back.
Edit here is vogel. https://youtu.be/REAYaSzSlWw
After review, it looks like a better way to descibe it is allowing the trigger to reset naturally instead of holding the trigger back for longer than necessary.
When shooting fast, can anyone actually recall if they felt the trigger reset? I sure as hell can't, and I don't care. I slow down my shooting based on the difficulty of the shot - my focus then is sight management, not trigger.
Trigger freeze was mentioned, and in my experience, trigger freeze happens regardless of length of reset of the trigger, because it's your finger that doesn't obey your brain.
Here is a stage at a match I shot a week ago, I have no idea what my trigger finger does; if it rides the reset or not. Probably not, as I don't train to prep or ride the reset.
https://youtu.be/KUBlCIPnado
1. It resets as the slide moves into battery, while the gun is cycling.
Every Glock trigger I've tried stays to the rear and does not reset until the slide returns to battery.
2. High speed video validates its done. Ill find some when i get back.
When I told people the Glock trigger feels awkward because it didn't reset until the slide returns to battery, I was told it's impossible for my finger to come off the trigger before the slide finishes cycling. Glad to know I'm not losing my mind.
I think what we are discussing is when to get off the trigger with our finger - do we come off during recoil or do we pin it to the rear and release to reset slowly.
We cannot make the trigger reset itself, as that is a mechanical function of the firearm that requires certain things to happen with internal components.
Here is a video that shows the concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbVi25ZeuQc
ramairthree
02-04-18, 11:26
When shooting fast, can anyone actually recall if they felt the trigger reset? I sure as hell can't, and I don't care. I slow down my shooting based on the difficulty of the shot - my focus then is sight management, not trigger.
Trigger freeze was mentioned, and in my experience, trigger freeze happens regardless of length of reset of the trigger, because it's your finger that doesn't obey your brain.
Here is a stage at a match I shot a week ago, I have no idea what my trigger finger does; if it rides the reset or not. Probably not, as I don't train to prep or ride the reset.
https://youtu.be/KUBlCIPnado
Yes.
This is what I have explicitly stated half a dozen times.
With a specific example of a model where the difference is explicit.
Another example, with less impact, because it is hard to run as fast as a 9mm Beretta,
Is 1006 vs 1086.
With the caveat that less significant difference in reset length, etc. are probably meaningless.
When shooting fast, can anyone actually recall if they felt the trigger reset?
Depends what specific sensation you are talking about. I don't feel when exactly it resets, and I don't want to feel it. I absolutely feel the difference in reset distance between my competition gun and my carry pistol.
As it commonly happens, I get more trigger freeze with the game gun, the one with the shorter reset.
As I wrote, when you are shooting fast.
Everyone can feel a difference in reset when just slowly manipulating the trigger, or during slow fire.
I am talking sub .20 splits.
There is now way that the reset is something you notice when you shoot that fast...
ramairthree
02-04-18, 16:32
As I wrote, when you are shooting fast.
Everyone can feel a difference in reset when just slowly manipulating the trigger, or during slow fire.
I am talking sub .20 splits.
There is now way that the reset is something you notice when you shoot that fast...
That is exactly when I notice it.
When the reset is very long it is harder to shoot that fast.
Again,
Take a Beretta 92, 92S, 92G, 92FS,- any of the models with the standard DA/SA set up.
Stand ten yards from a couple of 6 packs of plates.
Have fun for a hundred rounds or so. Or put up half a dozen silhouettes and put a pair into each of them.
Now, take a 92D. The reset for each shot is half an inch or more longer than your SA shots on the other models.
I find it hampering to shooting as fast and as accurate. While I notice the heavier trigger pull mostly, say shooting slow fire at 25m bullseyes, and notice the negative impact on accuracy, it does not slow you down.
The long reset I only notice when shooting fast. It’s like I am ready to pull the trigger again but it needs to still go further forward. I don’t ride the reset or think of it or feel for it on a Glock or 92G, but it’s like I am only used to letting off a little before pulling the trigger again, and the much longer 92D reset jacks that up.
Now, if you take your stock Glock 5 pound trigger and upgrade it to a 3.5 pound with a few mm difference of softer reset, I don’t notice it. There will be some potential gain in speed in accuracy but I would say it’s because the lighter trigger pull and shorter trigger pull five less opportunity to not have a good trigger pull.
How the various versions of HK and SIG DAO type trigger vs DA/SA pan out I am not sure.
But I would suggest trying a DAO version of a gun compared to the DA/SA before saying long reset makes no difference.
It does make a difference.
Now, after you have done that,
You will be able to say, through personal experience, that a long reset negatively impacts performance and speed in and of itself. Then you can add that to the objective eveidence that nobody winning Production was shooting a CZ 75 DAO or Beretta 92D. But they did do it with DA/SA versions with a much shorter reset.
So, keep in mind, as noted several times, those are examples of a significant difference in the length of reset. Where does the extra length become significant? An at what length is it meaningless? I don’t know the exact answer.
voiceofreason
02-04-18, 19:23
I'm a fairly average shooter and not a high end competitor by any means.
That said, I shoot better with a clear reset. My times with a shot timer have proven it for me. I've also run into issues when I've short stroked the trigger when it didn't reset because I didn't let it out far enough.
I don't really think about it when shooting, but when I shoot an older M&P pistol that was very little tactile reset... it becomes an issue given how far I have to let the trigger go when shooting strings. I really dislike losing contact with the trigger when shooting as I have to "reacclimate" my trigger finger pad to the correct position when I lose contact with the trigger face.
Every time a gun is reviewed or commented on these days, if the trigger reset isn’t as short as a Glock, it’s trigger either sucks or is “really lacking”. I’m not good enough to “use” super short reset so I asked a friend who competes and trains under professionals about the need for short reset. He says it doesn’t matter and that many champs teach full extension of the trigger finger - controlled slapping. So, why all the fuss about super short reset?
Your friend is 100% right. I shot an early M&P with no reset for years. Best thing I ever did.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is exactly when I notice it.
When the reset is very long it is harder to shoot that fast.
Again,
Take a Beretta 92, 92S, 92G, 92FS,- any of the models with the standard DA/SA set up.
Stand ten yards from a couple of 6 packs of plates.
Have fun for a hundred rounds or so. Or put up half a dozen silhouettes and put a pair into each of them.
Now, take a 92D. The reset for each shot is half an inch or more longer than your SA shots on the other models.
I find it hampering to shooting as fast and as accurate. While I notice the heavier trigger pull mostly, say shooting slow fire at 25m bullseyes, and notice the negative impact on accuracy, it does not slow you down.
The long reset I only notice when shooting fast. It’s like I am ready to pull the trigger again but it needs to still go further forward. I don’t ride the reset or think of it or feel for it on a Glock or 92G, but it’s like I am only used to letting off a little before pulling the trigger again, and the much longer 92D reset jacks that up.
Now, if you take your stock Glock 5 pound trigger and upgrade it to a 3.5 pound with a few mm difference of softer reset, I don’t notice it. There will be some potential gain in speed in accuracy but I would say it’s because the lighter trigger pull and shorter trigger pull five less opportunity to not have a good trigger pull.
How the various versions of HK and SIG DAO type trigger vs DA/SA pan out I am not sure.
But I would suggest trying a DAO version of a gun compared to the DA/SA before saying long reset makes no difference.
It does make a difference.
Now, after you have done that,
You will be able to say, through personal experience, that a long reset negatively impacts performance and speed in and of itself. Then you can add that to the objective eveidence that nobody winning Production was shooting a CZ 75 DAO or Beretta 92D. But they did do it with DA/SA versions with a much shorter reset.
So, keep in mind, as noted several times, those are examples of a significant difference in the length of reset. Where does the extra length become significant? An at what length is it meaningless? I don’t know the exact answer.
I’ll preface this with saying that I have really no time on DAO guns, other than plinking with the issued pistol to our police, the HK P30LV1.
However, I don’t think that it is the distance of the reset that is the issue, but the long throw of the trigger that slows you down. You're not losing speed coming off the trigger, it’s pressing it that is slower.
Reset distance
Strength if reset (force of the trigger trying to reset)
Could both influence speed. It would have to be drastic to make a difference, and you have to be really good for it to make a difference.
A tactile reset is not a factor IMO.
Im going to be comparing std glock spring to ny to see if split times change. Ill be testing both raw speed and drills.
I would call DAO significant. Comparing most stryker guns, i dont think the difference is worth worrying about, but i could see a DAO sig being slower. I mean, no matter how fast you are, if you move half the distance, you will be faster.
Your not losing speed coming off the trigger, it’s pressing it that is slower.
You may have a point there. In P30 it is easier to shoot fast with LEM V4.1 (V4 CH), that has same reset as any other LEM in P30, but has much shorter travel (pre-travel is reduced from 15mm to 10mm, sear release stays at 1.5mm, overtravel at 1mm and reset at 7.5mm - all measurements in the middle of trigger shoe).
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