View Full Version : Shot Show-2018
Early info on whats coming in 2018.
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/shot-show-2018/
Voodoochild
01-23-18, 11:16
The Kalashnikov 9mm rifle looks very nice. Big question is will they ever go into production. Seems the y were announced a year or so ago and nothing came through.
I believe I can hear the GLOCK guys filing the lawsuit paperwork right now!
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2018/01/19/ferro-9mm-pistol-drd-tactical-steel-frame-glock/
FlyingHunter
01-23-18, 11:37
Anything new from DeadAir??
FlyingHunter
01-23-18, 11:39
I believe I can hear the GLOCK guys filing the lawsuit paperwork right now!
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2018/01/19/ferro-9mm-pistol-drd-tactical-steel-frame-glock/
Both based in Georgia, the attorneys can just walk the papers over...
Really wanted to make it out there this year. A friend is at Booth 318.
RetroRevolver77
01-23-18, 13:14
Whenever these new guns come out I'm like, meh.
The .44 Automag has me considering selling more vital bodily fluids so I can get my Mack Bolan on.
Oh yes, it will be mine.
Everything else looks stupid and lame including the 9mm AK.
Coal Dragger
01-23-18, 14:03
Not one single product of interest aside from the Nightforce 1-8’s that aren’t a priority for me right now.
Not one single product of interest aside from the Nightforce 1-8’s that aren’t a priority for me right now.
Again, .44 Automag.
I think you are like a year or two older than me. Did you never read The Executioner or see Sudden Impact.
If it can cycle a mag and make me look cool in my Ambermatic Raybans and/or that black army sweater then it is THE must have product of 2018
Coal Dragger
01-23-18, 15:47
I just turned 39 for whatever that’s worth.
Yeah I have seen sudden impact. Yes the Automag is a cool looking gun. Just not $4K worth of cool to me. Not judging you for wanting one though.
If I have around $4K to spend on a .44 something I’d probably have SA revolver built with a Bisley style frame, line bored cylinder, charcoal blued, engraved, and stocked in ivory or sheep horn.
I dont have a Time Machine. $4k is a fair price. People piss that away on Nighthawks in .45.
Those are my Unicorns. A Wildey and an Automag.
Even if I just take selfies wearing a black commando sweater and sunglasses and make pew pew noises at imaginary Mafiosos/KGB/Terrorists
Im excited to see pulsars offerings. Looks like some cool stuff coming out.
Coal Dragger
01-23-18, 16:04
Hey man if that made you happy and checked off some boxes, go for it. This is America you can and should enjoy yourself and do what you want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else.
I’ll admit I’d like a Wildey too. Seemed the better design between that and the Automag.
The .44 Automag has me considering selling more vital bodily fluids so I can get my Mack Bolan on.
Oh yes, it will be mine.
Everything else looks stupid and lame including the 9mm AK.
I read ".44 AutoMag" and instantly my mind said 'Mack Bolan'.
Epic.
I've seen people spend 4k on stupider shit. That .44 automag is still cool as hell. :cool:
So...
Steel and alum. Glock frames.... has anyone ever wore out a factory polymer one?
Of interesting note to see is that visual disruption lasers have/are making their way onto the civilian market....
Brownell’s “Retro” line of early ARs is interesting. Whooda thunk we’d get choices in AR-10s?
I know a lot of people are over it, but I would love to see it once.
My first time here. Pretty cool.
So far the only thing I’ve seen that really impressed me was the Nightforce 1-8. That thing is legit.
Brownell’s “Retro” line of early ARs is interesting. Whooda thunk we’d get choices in AR-10s?
Do what now?
AR-10's? Link needed.
ETA I hope you meant Retro AR-10s. Otherwise my SR-25 does MY talking
I didn't have the slightest bit of interest in any of the stuff featured on the website in the OP. Even the Automag was meh.
I really do need a new hobby...This one has become boring.
My thoughts so far, even though no one cares:
Cloud Defensive OWL is the real panty dropper of the show. Bums me out that I just bought several of their LCS/Streamlight combos, and then they drop this out of nowhere... first world problems.
Sig P365 looks interesting. No universal rail means we'll be stuck with Sig or TLR-6 type lights for it. New magazine body and follower geometry is a little concerning to me, but if it works it could be huge.
Geissele Rem 700 trigger will take my money if they ever ship the damn thing, unlike the SSP I'm still waiting on more than a year later...
Haley D3CR-M looks great, as does their new PC. I'm not sure if they launched the PC yet but the Micro rig was definitely on display. I have no need for a chest rig but I want one anyways, because 'Merica.
New Magpul 700 chassis looks great, but the real news as far as I'm concerned is that the Hunter American .223/.300BLK stocks are coming soon and will accept AR mags. I can see the point of their new suppressor cover but again, does nothing for me personally.
Dead Air flash hider end caps for the Sandman series are exciting. I absolutely need one or two for my Sandman-K as it's quite the firebreather.
On the topic of Dead Air, Sons of Liberty Gun Works is releasing a new line of Keymount-compatible muzzle devices... just what I needed, my suppressor to cost me even more money.
New, more affordable polymer bits from RailScales look good.
ESEE is making a hatchet now that looks great.
Still no Gen M3 Magpods :rolleyes:
Scalarworks LEAP scope mount finally debuted. It doesn't do anything for me, personally, but I know everyone will be on it like flies on poo because it's from SW.
Obviously the Nightforce ATACR and the NX8 1-8s are still making a buzz for good reason.
I was excited to hear about the new Streamlight TLR-7 and TLR-8... until I actually saw them. I guess they're alright, but I'm not a fan of the controls. As much as I hate Inforce, the APLc is going to remain on my EDC G19 for at least another year it seems.
Stryk pistols have new branding but will probably still never ship. I don't know why I even still check back on them for updates, they've been "shipping in about a month" for nearly three years.
KAC has a new 14.5" SR25 upper, not for us poor people.
TNVC ColorTAC night vision looks equally amazing, also not for us poor people.
SomeOtherGuy
01-24-18, 14:03
Do what now?
AR-10's? Link needed.
ETA I hope you meant Retro AR-10s. Otherwise my SR-25 does MY talking
That would be awesome. I wish I had bought an Armalite retro AR-10 when they were in production - the 20" with full sights, trigger type charging handle, and brown furniture. Do you hear me, Armalite? (Make it take original AR-10 pattern mags though, not the M14-derived mags that your previous version took.)
4k for an auto mag? You can often buy an original cheaper.
I wonder if the parts will interchange?
I, too, read mack Bolan, and saw sudden impact.
Here ya go, firefly..........https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180124/c7a405f4057a9c34a2c7def37dd00123.jpg
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WickedWillis
01-24-18, 15:11
I know a lot of people are over it, but I would love to see it once.
I am in the same boat as you. I really want to go one year.
The thing I am most excited about from the show is the new Lone Wolf Glock frames. I know, I know Lone wolf, but they appear to mimic the Gen 5 fingergroove-less frames and they even have a more favorable (to most) grip angle. As someone who has a beat to hell G17 frame, I am probably going to grab one of these.
Also that Sig 365 is looking more and more like a winner.
gunfixr, I hate you in the most respectful way possible. Sweet automag and rig.
Very envious.
Thanks for sharing
gunfixr, I hate you in the most respectful way possible. Sweet automag and rig.
Very envious.
Thanks for sharingLol. Anytime.
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My thoughts so far, even though no one cares:
Cloud Defensive OWL is the real panty dropper of the show. Bums me out that I just bought several of their LCS/Streamlight combos, and then they drop this out of nowhere... first world problems.
......................
Haley D3CR-M looks great, as does their new PC. I'm not sure if they launched the PC yet but the Micro rig was definitely on display. I have no need for a chest rig but I want one anyways, because 'Merica.
New Magpul 700 chassis looks great, but the real news as far as I'm concerned is that the Hunter American .223/.300BLK stocks are coming soon and will accept AR mags. I can see the point of their new suppressor cover but again, does nothing for me personally.
......................
Obviously the Nightforce ATACR and the NX8 1-8s are still making a buzz for good reason....
Just tired of the rehashes and "who cares" products. Now the worthwhile stuff.... yeah, we care. Well, I do anyway... :laugh:
If that Cloud OWL actually works as advertised..... that's gonna be kickass (and for once perhaps and *actual* gamechanger) and I want a couple. And like you I literally just invested in other lights (SF scouts w/ tape switch). FML.
Do you have any pics of the new Haley chest rig and PC? Very interested in these.
An LMT LM8/Mlok is still my dream .308, and I'm pretty sure the NF 1-8x is now officially my dream optic to put it under.
Especially if it costs less than a CQBSS....
QD head feature of the OWL is retarded. Like completely unnecessary. The rest is mildly interesting.
Past that all that need to exist are right angle Surefire plugs.
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Do you have any pics of the new Haley chest rig and PC? Very interested in these.
There are pics floating around the net, I got to see them personally at the HSP open house last year and I like their micro rig better than the Spiritus, personally. Large zippered center pouch ideal for admin or medical items, one pistol/light/tq/tool pouch on each side of the center magazine rack, and comes in a few different versions for 4 subgun/3 556/2 762 mags and their KYWI-like wedge inserts come standard vs. being an upgrade as with the other D3CRs. Same modularity otherwise.
Best picture I can find quickly:
https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/c179.0.721.721/25007967_730642020474968_6130462780156805120_n.jpg
What is the most significant release at this year's shot show? I like the PSA MP5...
sundance435
01-26-18, 07:42
My thoughts so far, even though no one cares:
Sig P365 looks interesting. No universal rail means we'll be stuck with Sig or TLR-6 type lights for it. New magazine body and follower geometry is a little concerning to me, but if it works it could be huge.
This was really the only thing so far I'd consider buying. Being that it's a polymer Sig, I'll probably wait a year+ before buying one. Firearm Blog's write-up on it said that Sig designed the magazine first - I hope they got it working before moving on.
skywalkrNCSU
01-26-18, 09:02
For those in the know and who have seen them what makes the Nightforce 1-8 optics so much better than current market offerings? I’d like to get a 1-8 in the future but am not in a rush or anything and have heard a lot of hype from these.
RetroRevolver77
01-26-18, 10:51
For those in the know and who have seen them what makes the Nightforce 1-8 optics so much better than current market offerings? I’d like to get a 1-8 in the future but am not in a rush or anything and have heard a lot of hype from these.
No idea but here is a write up on them.
http://www.eurooptic.com/blog/post/2017/12/14/nightforce-optics-releases-3-1-8x-riflescopes
skywalkrNCSU
01-26-18, 10:54
No idea but here is a write up on them.
http://www.eurooptic.com/blog/post/2017/12/14/nightforce-optics-releases-3-1-8x-riflescopes
Interesting for sure, thanks for the link. If target acquisition in 1x is really as good as it sounds then it would be a pretty versatile optic for my uses.
Zero Delta modular “Glock” looks cool. Not something I would buy but the concept is interesting.
Also Yankee Hills hinged gas block. Nothing I need I just like the innovation along with a few companies making narrower muzzle devices to make pin and welding “easier”
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Retro AR everything
Automags
and that NF 1-8....
It's just my body not my heart.
I know what I must do.
What is the most significant release at this year's shot show? I like the PSA MP5...
Yeah, that has piqued my interest. I wish it would be the regular length as opposed to the "K" shorty though. I also hope it doesn't forever remain vaporware.
I knew with these double-strutted braces now that it could be made to be REAL close aesthetically to the real deal.
Why do people want MP5 clones?
It seems deceptively cool but then its like "this literally does nothing my Glock does except weigh more and be expensive"
Once you realize you shan't ever be in Rainbow Six, the luster fades. Even real MP5s aren't all that
I was sorta hoping PTR was putting out a non-turkish HK93.
Nope, more MP5 crap.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-18, 11:27
Just tired of the rehashes and "who cares" products. Now the worthwhile stuff.... yeah, we care. Well, I do anyway... :laugh:
If that Cloud OWL actually works as advertised..... that's gonna be kickass (and for once perhaps and *actual* gamechanger) and I want a couple. And like you I literally just invested in other lights (SF scouts w/ tape switch). FML.
Do you have any pics of the new Haley chest rig and PC? Very interested in these.
An LMT LM8/Mlok is still my dream .308, and I'm pretty sure the NF 1-8x is now officially my dream optic to put it under.
Especially if it costs less than a CQBSS....
Used CQBSSs are pretty cheap, relatively.
My thoughts so far, even though no one cares:
Cloud Defensive OWL is the real panty dropper of the show. Bums me out that I just bought several of their LCS/Streamlight combos, and then they drop this out of nowhere... first world problems.
Sig P365 looks interesting. No universal rail means we'll be stuck with Sig or TLR-6 type lights for it. New magazine body and follower geometry is a little concerning to me, but if it works it could be huge.
Geissele Rem 700 trigger will take my money if they ever ship the damn thing, unlike the SSP I'm still waiting on more than a year later...
.
I agree on the Sig. I might not go out and rush to buy it, but I might swap it for the M&P Shield that I have.
Can you explain more about the light- why is it different?
Lot's of 700 trigger out there...
Is PSA becoming legit?
gunnerblue
01-26-18, 11:33
For those in the know and who have seen them what makes the Nightforce 1-8 optics so much better than current market offerings? I’d like to get a 1-8 in the future but am not in a rush or anything and have heard a lot of hype from these.
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/just-released-nightforce-nx8-ffp-1-8x24mm-30mm-tube-atacr-f1-1-8x24mm-34mm-tube-models.6798633/
Some good info here, I believe some posters are also M4C members so maybe they’ll chime in. I am in the same boat as you and am really wondering how easily the reticles are to pick up without illumination on both models.
skywalkrNCSU
01-26-18, 11:34
Why do people want MP5 clones?
It seems deceptively cool but then its like "this literally does nothing my Glock does except weigh more and be expensive"
Once you realize you shan't ever be in Rainbow Six, the luster fades. Even real MP5s aren't all that
I was sorta hoping PTR was putting out a non-turkish HK93.
Nope, more MP5 crap.
I’m pretty much done buying guns that are just toys for me, all my future purchases will have a distinct purpose. That said, there is something about a MP5 that just looks fun as hell and I would be very tempted by a well priced, decent quality clone.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-18, 11:58
I’m pretty much done buying guns that are just toys for me, all my future purchases will have a distinct purpose. That said, there is something about a MP5 that just looks fun as hell and I would be very tempted by a well priced, decent quality clone.
My buddy who drew me deeper into guns had a similar gestalt. He always had a hunt or a sport to shoot for guns he bought. If he did buy a safe queen, he did it with open eyes that he simply wanted to posses it. We have USPSA carbine matches that have pistol caliber sections, so there is a 'use'.
In the video I saw, it was implied that they would sell it as a pistol with an arm brace?
Why do people want MP5 clones?
It seems deceptively cool but then its like "this literally does nothing my Glock does except weigh more and be expensive"
Once you realize you shan't ever be in Rainbow Six, the luster fades. Even real MP5s aren't all that
I was sorta hoping PTR was putting out a non-turkish HK93.
Nope, more MP5 crap.
I don't want to live out a Rainbow Six fantasy, unless they bring in the MP5/10. Then I might change my mind. But, I just want an MP5 so I can reenact Operation Nimrod on a local fraternaty or three.
RetroRevolver77
01-26-18, 12:40
I’m pretty much done buying guns that are just toys for me, all my future purchases will have a distinct purpose. That said, there is something about a MP5 that just looks fun as hell and I would be very tempted by a well priced, decent quality clone.
Buy an HK 94 and send it to Investment Grade Firearms to have it properly re-marked, registered as an SBR. If you go the aftermarket route, it's not German, it's just a clone- of the real thing. I have two HK MP5's, they are neat and they round out my original factory import collection well.
I’m pretty much done buying guns that are just toys for me, all my future purchases will have a distinct purpose. That said, there is something about a MP5 that just looks fun as hell and I would be very tempted by a well priced, decent quality clone.
Pretty much in the same boat, but like you that MP5 clone has gotten my attention.
Why do people want MP5 clones?
It seems deceptively cool but then its like "this literally does nothing my Glock does except weigh more and be expensive"
Once you realize you shan't ever be in Rainbow Six, the luster fades. Even real MP5s aren't all that
I was sorta hoping PTR was putting out a non-turkish HK93.
Nope, more MP5 crap.
I have an old VCR tape of "Navy SEALs" with Charlie Sheen. That PSA clone would go nicely as I squint trying to watch that grainy-ass video.
You have your floppy hat, tiger stripes, and CAR/A1 clone. I'll perhaps have my MP5 clone someday, tie a bandana around my head, and jump out of a moving car off a bridge.
What is the most significant release at this year's shot show? I like the PSA MP5...I saw a pic of a New Frontier Armory MP5 lower earlier today. Thought that was interesting. As they are local to me I look forward to seeing them in person. (First time in 4 years I couldn't make it to SHOT because of other commitments)
I'm interested to hear reports on the Regent BR9 Stainless (supposed to be at SHOT). I've resisted getting another BHP for years because I'd want to pimp it. With the minimal rollmarks and stampings, this might be a good basis for a custom project.
http://www.lkcillc.com/wbn-content/uploads/regent-br9-ss-25092017161530.jpg
http://www.lkcillc.com/wbn-content/uploads/regent-br9-ss2-25092017161532.jpg
http://www.lkcillc.com/wbn-content/uploads/regent-br9-ss3-25092017161533.jpg
This one relocates the SN off the frontstrap, which I'd want full stippled down the center but not quite all the way to the edges for carry comfort.
http://www.lkcillc.com/products/9mm/regent-br9-ss-stainless-steel/
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-18, 16:01
For the PSA MP5, It is a 'pistol', right? Better get them out fast....
In the interview, did I hear right that they are planning on a 2nd and third generation? 40, 45, 10mm? In what I saw he hinted that there might be a 223 version? Wouldn't that just be an HK33? A 300BK would be interesting?
Outlander Systems
01-26-18, 16:49
This. The MP5 is an itch that needs to be scratched.
I'm very interested in PSAs version.
I’m pretty much done buying guns that are just toys for me, all my future purchases will have a distinct purpose. That said, there is something about a MP5 that just looks fun as hell and I would be very tempted by a well priced, decent quality clone.
Rayrevolver
01-26-18, 17:13
This. The MP5 is an itch that needs to be scratched.
I'm very interested in PSAs version.
Why not buy a POF for $1200 now? Atlantic Arms has great CS if there are issues.
Just seems unlikely PSA will hit $1000 and you have to wait until 2019 to find out.
Used ATI and MKEs can sometimes be found close to $1000 on GunBroker.
True story, since getting the Z-5P (MP5K-PDW) I really haven't shot my ARs much. Too much fun shooting it suppressed.
RetroRevolver77
01-26-18, 17:35
We should probably start an MP5 thread. However, if you can find an older MKE MP5 pistol, some of those came in with the paddle release and a 16" barrel in case you don't want to SBR. I had two of them. They ran fine, they worked well but I decided to upgrade to the real HK MP5's because I didn't want a clone, I wanted the original.
Outlander Systems
01-26-18, 17:50
It's hard for me to justify just for the fun. Sub-$1k and I'm in like General Flynn.
Why not buy a POF for $1200 now? Atlantic Arms has great CS if there are issues.
Just seems unlikely PSA will hit $1000 and you have to wait until 2019 to find out.
Used ATI and MKEs can sometimes be found close to $1000 on GunBroker.
True story, since getting the Z-5P (MP5K-PDW) I really haven't shot my ARs much. Too much fun shooting it suppressed.
For the PSA MP5, It is a 'pistol', right? Better get them out fast....
In the interview, did I hear right that they are planning on a 2nd and third generation? 40, 45, 10mm? In what I saw he hinted that there might be a 223 version? Wouldn't that just be an HK33? A 300BK would be interesting?
If you can do those a 357Sig version is certainly doable. That would make my aging pecker somewhat hard! :)
It's hard for me to justify just for the fun. Sub-$1k and I'm in like General Flynn.
Same here, I don't think about it as a defensive weapon more of a range toy and if it's under a grand I'll pick it up.
What really looks interesting to me is the new Giessele uppers.
Even real MP5s aren't all that
Nope, more MP5 crap.
Et tu Firefly?
Et tu Firefly?
Give the boy a break, I think he has the flu. Must be messing with his brain.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-27-18, 10:47
What PSA should do is at Carbine/3-gun matches sponsor a stage with their PSA-5 as a 'pick-up' gun for part of the stage. Have a suppressor company sponsor the can, and just collect orders at the end of the stage.
As long as the gun doesn't **** itself in the roll out reviews, and they keep it healthy under $1k, why not get one?
Already have a GSG-5, so this would just add to the fun.
Does anybody else see this Shot show as having a "clone"
trend? Brownell's ARs and all the Rollerlock copies... the only other thing that I am really seeing is 6.5 ARs and 224 Valkyrie.
Outlander Systems
01-27-18, 15:41
I think the industry is oversaturated with Gucci-assed, overpriced lifestyle guns. The move toward more classic, iconic weapons is symptomatic of this.
10 years from now, nobody is going to be cloning M-LOK railed guns with Scalarworks meme sights.
Does anybody else see this Shot show as having a "clone"
trend? Brownell's ARs and all the Rollerlock copies... the only other thing that I am really seeing is 6.5 ARs and 224 Valkyrie.
Et tu Firefly?
We have them at work and I echo FireFly’s sentiment. A relic of the past.
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I think the industry is oversaturated with Gucci-assed, overpriced lifestyle guns.
You have to admit though, if we're at the point of "Gucci-assed, overpriced lifestyle guns" then we've come a long way as AR enthusiasts.
Nah you can have MP5 clones I'm good
The B&T APC 16" has me noticing Senpai though
RetroRevolver77
01-27-18, 18:50
Nah you can have MP5 clones I'm good
The B&T APC 16" has me noticing Senpai though
I've thought about going all uber modern, dumping all weapons that were designed prior to the 2000's and starting from scratch. I think if I was just getting into the game today and was much younger- that's exactly what I would do. No weapons designed prior to 2000's and then build from there. In twenty to thirty years- you'd have a relatively desirable and modern collection versus some outdated relic designs from the past.
Outlander Systems
01-27-18, 18:51
I can concede this.
You have to admit though, if we're at the point of "Gucci-assed, overpriced lifestyle guns" then we've come a long way as AR enthusiasts.
Why do people want MP5 clones?
It seems deceptively cool but then its like "this literally does nothing my Glock does except weigh more and be expensive"
Once you realize you shan't ever be in Rainbow Six, the luster fades. Even real MP5s aren't all that
I was sorta hoping PTR was putting out a non-turkish HK93.
Nope, more MP5 crap.
There are two SMGs I will always own, MP5 and Uzi. When I get my Gustav M45 the trinity will be complete. Everything else is just a semi auto.
There are two SMGs I will always own, MP5 and Uzi. When I get my Gustav M45 the trinity will be complete. Everything else is just a semi auto.
Select fire there is a point but semi only? meh.
I think I told about how I had a chance at a real Swede K for relatively cheap because a guy was getting out of guns. Still kick myself over that.
I know PCC matches are a thing but I dunno if they are my thing.
I've thought about going all uber modern, dumping all weapons that were designed prior to the 2000's and starting from scratch. I think if I was just getting into the game today and was much younger- that's exactly what I would do. No weapons designed prior to 2000's and then build from there. In twenty to thirty years- you'd have a relatively desirable and modern collection versus some outdated relic designs from the past.
I would say it depends on the goals of the shooter. Sometimes there are lessons that can be learned from older designs. And sometimes you have to have itches that just need scratching, and an MP5 would be one of mine. The asshole in my also would mouth off about what designs are really actually new in this day and age? Me, I am torn, I have a lot of "hard use" guns covered and they get shot and trained with more, but sometimes, I do want that pointless enjoyment at the range. Because otherwise, why the hell live if you don't have some fun every now and again. Which is the issue I think we run into, guns that we enjoy, and even have fascinations with, and trying to shoehorn them into practical roles. It doesn't always work.
I do think, to answer another comment about a lot of retro guns hitting the market probably has more to do with those who were growing in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's finally are at the point of having excess disposable income and wanting to live out fantasies of yesteryear so those guns that they were jerking off to back then are still a draw and there is money to made there.
I remember reading about prototype AR-10s bursting barrels during tests in the day. Now I can fire up the Mac and order a “retro” one.
Worse yet, I was there to see the first SR-71s go operational. Now all of them are stuffed and mounted in museums.
I feel like Lazarus Long some days.
SomeOtherGuy
01-27-18, 21:06
I've thought about going all uber modern, dumping all weapons that were designed prior to the 2000's and starting from scratch. I think if I was just getting into the game today and was much younger- that's exactly what I would do. No weapons designed prior to 2000's and then build from there.
The problem with this is that there isn't much that's brand new since 2000 that is (a) civilian available, (b) an actual improvement of pre-2000 designs, and (c) fully debugged. In rifles, the cool HK stuff fails a, SCAR fails b, and Masada/ACR massively fails c. More options in pistols, but still not compelling.
I also find that most post-1990 designs were engineered for rapid, cheap production instead of real quality or durability. Yet advancements in CNC and economies of scale make some much older designs, originally requiring tons of skilled machinist time (AR-15? FAL?) no more expensive and in fact often less.
Finally, plastic has its place but when the entire gun minus the barrel and bolt is plastic you tend to end up with bulky, not as light as hoped-for, cheap feeling designs.
In twenty to thirty years- you'd have a relatively desirable and modern collection versus some outdated relic designs from the past.
Someone taking this approach could end up with a whole lot of unsupported, oddball, rare-but-not-valuable stuff.
I used to own a Robinson M96. Absolutely awesome design, I think the design is still among the best ever, yet in large scale production it would likely have been cheaper to make than ARs (even at 2018 prices) and not much above AKMs. But it wasn't fully debugged, it was hardly supported by its maker (even when it was nominally still in production), and I sold it recognizing that it would eventually break an irreplaceable part and become a paperweight. If FN, or even Ruger, made a M96 clone today I would be first in line. But without a widely military-adopted design, you'd better have a large and stable manufacturer to have any future support.
The problem with this is that there isn't much that's brand new since 2000 that is (a) civilian available, (b) an actual improvement of pre-2000 designs, and (c) fully debugged. In rifles, the cool HK stuff fails a, SCAR fails b, and Masada/ACR massively fails c. More options in pistols, but still not compelling.
I also find that most post-1990 designs were engineered for rapid, cheap production instead of real quality or durability. Yet advancements in CNC and economies of scale make some much older designs, originally requiring tons of skilled machinist time (AR-15? FAL?) no more expensive and in fact often less.
Finally, plastic has its place but when the entire gun minus the barrel and bolt is plastic you tend to end up with bulky, not as light as hoped-for, cheap feeling designs.
Someone taking this approach could end up with a whole lot of unsupported, oddball, rare-but-not-valuable stuff.
I used to own a Robinson M96. Absolutely awesome design, I think the design is still among the best ever, yet in large scale production it would likely have been cheaper to make than ARs (even at 2018 prices) and not much above AKMs. But it wasn't fully debugged, it was hardly supported by its maker (even when it was nominally still in production), and I sold it recognizing that it would eventually break an irreplaceable part and become a paperweight. If FN, or even Ruger, made a M96 clone today I would be first in line. But without a widely military-adopted design, you'd better have a large and stable manufacturer to have any future support.
You bring up some good points. But, there are some aspects I think you might be missing on manufacturing. Older, more labor insensitive designs may be cheaper not because they are older, but because the equipment and R&D costs have been amortized to the point that the company can sell the stuff at a lower rate while still seeing a profit. How many times have we heard about the machinery that was used to build the product of yesteryear(Christ how many times have I used that word lately) being destroyed, or sold off, or no longer existent and retooling being cost prohibitive? Same concept. Some older designs, everyone's beloved, Colt Python for example, also may require a large amount of hand fitting to meet the standard that people set, thus driving the cost up to stupid high levels, unless things are redesigned. That said, with modern manufacturing techniques some things, and I think the AR is one of them, can now be produced faster at a cheaper price than every before.
You also touched on a good point on the M96, which I think was a offshoot or clone of the Stoner 63, which is a lot of, and I do mean A LOT!!!! of designs that are newer just don't have all the gremlins worked out. Just look at everyone's beloved SCAR, there are those who chime in as it being the most tested rifle in history, and yet, I still think it has deficiencies that make me hold onto my AR15s, not maybe part of that is laws, not being able to get FA and SBR rifles over the counter, but maybe it is that there are certain aspects that I feel need to be addressed and I don't like being someone's beta tester unless I am getting paid. Which I don't doubt manufacturers don't see, and I am sure some have to be going, "Our sales are down, we are selling at a slower rate. Do we put our money on the safe bet on things that will sell because of the market and guarantee a steady income, or do we bet on a long shot that could cost us?" The larger manufacturers might swing to the second for somethings, but you better believe that they might be less than fully cooked, and that there are likely to be at least small issues(The Hudson 9's sight issues being a good example, gun might run fine, but the sights need some tweaking, which, by and by, if that is the only issue they have, then someone buy them a drink they did a bang up job), but there might be some major teething issues as well which will leave some, like myself, on the fence until things prove out.
That said, there will always been a market to those looking for something new, I been seeing it here trust me, or something different, also saw that today too, but how much money are in the two prior markets compared to marketing to those looking for the old reliable standby that they can trust? Pros and cons, and money. What do you as the business do? Chances are, follow the money, because those who are going for the long shot are rarely remembered.
Select fire there is a point but semi only? meh.
I think I told about how I had a chance at a real Swede K for relatively cheap because a guy was getting out of guns. Still kick myself over that.
I know PCC matches are a thing but I dunno if they are my thing.
With ammo prices in the last 10 years running belts of Hirtenburger .308 through my HK 21 has less appeal than it once did. So I can see how people have warmed up to semi auto 9mm ARs, HKs and 100 round value packs.
And honestly even with a select fire group, if I'm shooting for scores, I spend a lot of time on semi auto. Full auto is a comforting option, knowing it's there...kind of like a parachute.
RetroRevolver77
01-27-18, 22:29
With ammo prices in the last 10 years running belts of Hirtenburger .308 through my HK 21 has less appeal than it once did. So I can see how people have warmed up to semi auto 9mm ARs, HKs and 100 round value packs.
And honestly even with a select fire group, if I'm shooting for scores, I spend a lot of time on semi auto. Full auto is a comforting option, knowing it's there...kind of like a parachute.
Well an HK 21 is expensive to run. I thought about just getting a FA Colt lower and be done with it. At least as mentioned above, it would be supported long term or so we think. I never thought we'd run out of FAL parts- yet here we are. Same can be said for a lot of older designs. I never thought they'd stop producing parts for German SIG's, good luck finding an extractor. Or the Hi Power, it's no longer in production. This is what I'm saying about keeping up with modern designs- not necessarily small companies producing off the wall stuff, but simply items that are dwindling in components long term may not be a valuable as one would think.
I know. The struggle is real. When I get a chance to shoot my 308, all I think is "Thats a dollar down the pipe" because my KACs only get FGMM.
I remember being a college kid with an STG 58 and getting stupid cheap surplus 308 thinking those days would last forever.
Newp.
I couldnt fathom feeding a beltfed
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-28-18, 00:04
Not seeing much about optics, especially long-range/PRS types? Are we just where 5-25, 10MIL/rev scopes are so common that there isn't much more to do?
Buy an HK 94 and send it to Investment Grade Firearms to have it properly re-marked, registered as an SBR. If you go the aftermarket route, it's not German, it's just a clone- of the real thing. I have two HK MP5's, they are neat and they round out my original factory import collection well.
Agreed, but I would only send it to TSC.
Well an HK 21 is expensive to run. I thought about just getting a FA Colt lower and be done with it. At least as mentioned above, it would be supported long term or so we think. I never thought we'd run out of FAL parts- yet here we are. Same can be said for a lot of older designs. I never thought they'd stop producing parts for German SIG's, good luck finding an extractor. Or the Hi Power, it's no longer in production. This is what I'm saying about keeping up with modern designs- not necessarily small companies producing off the wall stuff, but simply items that are dwindling in components long term may not be a valuable as one would think.
One could say the same about large pin / screw Colt receivers. As far as FALs, might have a tough time tracking down original Belgian parts for your LAR, but DSA still makes just about everything. More importantly some of those old 91s and Hi Powers might just outlast the SCARs and Gen I Glocks out there. I have a 100+ year old 1911 still running on all original parts that saw action in WWI, WWII and Korea. It's not as accurate as it once was, but it's still serviceable. Wonder what the first 100+ year old Glocks and USPs might be like.
We've seen G36s that are already having serious problems but 1960s vintage G3s are still running strong.
When I was a gunstruck kid, I about had the entire Stoeger "Shooter's Bible" memorized. Now I can't even keep track of the manufacturers, let alone their offerings. ARs come in 157 varieties, but I'll stay with the ones I brought to the dance. I have the obligatory (and, to me, expendable) G19. Everything else was already on the market in 1970. And they all still work just fine.
It just got boring.
When I was a gunstruck kid, I about had the entire Stoeger "Shooter's Bible" memorized. Now I can't even keep track of the manufacturers, let alone their offerings. ARs come in 157 varieties, but I'll stay with the ones I brought to the dance. I have the obligatory (and, to me, expendable) G19. Everything else was already on the market in 1970. And they all still work just fine.
It just got boring.
I grew up with Soldier of Fortune as my "Shooters Bible" and when I saw Die Hard in 1988 that pretty much shifted me into high gear. Just as a guy who worked all his life might buy a bright, red corvette to give it all meaning and purpose I starting buying the guns I read about, especially if Peter Kokalis was doing the writing (and sadly I just learned of his passing January 11, 2017.)
And for a time during the 1990s, when you couldn't get new rifles with bayonet lugs or flash hiders, machine gun prices were probably closer to most peoples income ranges than at any time before or since, and I managed to grab a few.
At one time I had a massive personal firearm collection of 500+, but with the Great Obama Gun Sale I went from 35 AKs that in some cases were nearly identical except for country of manufacture and things I had paid $450 for were selling for $2,500 so I kept the best of the best, decided I didn't need standard AKMs from every country that made one and I let go of all my century arms receiver parts guns. I then reinvested in a few more NFA items and some big ticket collectibles. If an AR wasn't a Colt, it pretty much got sold and I thinned a half dozen RRA and some other brands from my collection.
During the Sandy Hook Scare I realized I had almost 1,000 AR mags and things I had paid $10 for were selling for $75, I divested myself of a few hundred with the realization that if they banned the sale of high capacity magazines I could survive on my stockpile of 800. It didn't happen and I turned around and bought a few hundred more modern P mags as well as grabbing piles of AUG and SIG mags.
I have a list of about 25 firearms I'm actively seeking when I get 10 more important things taken care of. I've had and sold some great stuff. It was neat owning several .50 rifles, but it was also neat selling them for almost twice what I paid for them later on.
I have had so many firearms but I always come back to the same ones, for if the scary "IF" ever does happen. I have the same ones I shoot for recreation. I have the same ones I shoot for pure nostalgia. And I have the same ones that I just love to collect.
Very little that has been produced and offered since 2000 has changed much of that. Might eventually buy a MEUSOC 1911.
That tactical ascender looks interesting
Wait...Peter Kokalis died?!
I read SOF pretty regularly from age 12-24. I remember in HS we had to pick an article from a magazine to write about and while people were getting Time, Sports Illustrated, Ebony Jet, Seventeen, etc I picked SOF.
They actually did an article on why you shouldn't be a mercenary. Like thats why they stopped letting folks advertise. Because some dude's wife sued them in the 70s-80s because he literally had no training of any kind and got a job in Africa and was executed.
In the 90s, they got a bit weird with the anti-govt spiel like they claimed all the PDs in the US would be Federalized (which makes no sense). Plus it was a lot of dudes writing their Vietnam War stories. The gun articles got a bit mediocre but they still had at least one dude with a FAL.
I just bought them for the pictures and would trace or doodle dudes with FALs. Had it not been for SOF I wouldnt have gotten an STG 58. I miss it. One day I will get/build another FAL. They are grossly obsolete but are fun to shoot.
Then I got into Small Arms Review and wish I hadnt thown out my early 00s issues. They had extensive articles on the HK416 and the XM8 and broke the news on the SCAR (the prototype looked way different).
Like they showed all proposed variants of the XM8 from the PDW to the DMR to the IAR. Looking back the XM8 was kinda a lame idea. Like the DMR had a fixed G36 style dual optic. I thought G36s were cool until I got to shoot one then...naw. Could not get comfy.
Yet the SL8 I shot with the thumbhole (guy I knews gun) wasnt bad. If you werent limited to the neutered mags and could use G36 mags, it would actually be an interesting rifle. But they are drying up because folks want to waste nigh 4k total to turn it into a G36.
If they were still reasonably priced I might get a normal SL8 and pop a 3-9 on it.
Kinda rambly but these are the good ol days. 10 years ago gun companies werent trying to get you Vietnam War CAR-15 and Dutch AR-10 clones, Mlok wasnt a thing, new Steyr AUGs werent a thing and I remember getting janked on hard for showing up with a pmag because "plastic magazines suck".
My only deal is that Vltor never came out with the Bren Ten clone. I wish someone could get on that. 10mm is making a bit of a comeback. The Delta Elite, the 10mm TRP, etc.
You maybe could get an EAA Witness and it would sorta look like one, but still..
Also Glock Pmags exist. I keep my OEMs for putting away and just use pmags now.
Actually, stuff is better now. I saw where KAC is gonna sell SR-25 uppers and 556 BCGs and do their own "retro" line of MRE rails.
Wouldnt be cheap but I wouldn't mind an APR upper.
Yep, this is pretty much the best timeline.
I dunno what it will be like in 10 years but compared to 10 years prior we got it made.
jethroUSMC
01-28-18, 07:51
For the PSA MP5, It is a 'pistol', right? Better get them out fast....
In the interview, did I hear right that they are planning on a 2nd and third generation? 40, 45, 10mm? In what I saw he hinted that there might be a 223 version? Wouldn't that just be an HK33? A 300BK would be interesting?
I missed out on a .300 BLK MP5 clone last year. IIRC it was a build from Dakota Arms (or something like that) - highly sought after and not inexpensive. Had a cool factor about it for sure.
Definitely didn't need it, but the want was there.
In the time researching the manufacturer, and any info about the firearm, someone else snagged it.
I wasn't heartbroken, but it might have been cool to have. Honestly, it worked out as it allowed me to focus on finishing acquiring parts for other upper builds.
I’m glad to see more mp5 options in the marketplace. Hopefully HK unveils a SP5 fullsize at the NRA show.
The .44 Automag has me considering selling more vital bodily fluids so I can get my Mack Bolan on.
Oh yes, it will be mine.
I'll be in line with you. I plan on setting up a psychic service for the local PDs in order to be able to raise the funds. Just think "Johnny Wishbone" and I come runnin...
I'll be in line with you. I plan on setting up a psychic service for the local PDs in order to be able to raise the funds. Just think "Johnny Wishbone" and I come runnin...
If some dude in a suit or some gypsy woman showed up claiming to be a psychic I'd say GTFO but if some skinny gnarly Auschwitz looking dude in leather gimp gear and a Gas Mask with a Russian accent showed up and could move my controller then I'd be aaaalll ears
If some dude in a suit or some gypsy woman showed up claiming to be a psychic I'd say GTFO but if some skinny gnarly Auschwitz looking dude in leather gimp gear and a Gas Mask with a Russian accent showed up and could move my controller then I'd be aaaalll ears
That is why us smart guys use the 2nd controller port David.
I'll be in line with you. I plan on setting up a psychic service for the local PDs in order to be able to raise the funds. Just think "Johnny Wishbone" and I come runnin...
Johnny Wishbone would be using a Highpower
50107
Johnny Wishbone would be using a Highpower 50107
Yeah, but he's hunting for an AutoMag!
Moose-Knuckle
01-31-18, 16:45
For anyone that attended the show....
Did Elon Musk's economical flame thrower make an appearance?
SeriousStudent
01-31-18, 20:01
Johnny Wishbone would be using a Highpower
50107
That's damn near a Full Sabrina.
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