View Full Version : Figuring out a new Faxon barrel
I recently acquired a used Burris 1-8 scope. I set it up on a 11.5 Sionics barrel with AAC can and it was pretty sweet. But I really wanted to run the scope out at distance and 11.5 is not ideal.
Therefore, I bought a new Faxon 16 inch 1/8 barrel new in wrapper off EE. Upon delivery, the fit and finish was very nice and the profile was super thin. I bought an SLR GAS block, geissele 15 rail and had a spare LMT MARS lower with SSA Trigger.
I took my new beloved rig out and drove the time proven load of 77 grain SMK and TMK. Well well well,
With the suppressor it offered up 5 inch groups, without 4 inch groups. We shot multiple groups thinking no way. But it was consistent.
I contacted Faxon and they suggested 60-70 grain bullets. The following week, with little hope any barrel is going to shoot lighter bullets to any satisfaction, the gun grouped 1.5 and one moa group. The 62grain BTHP shot 1.5 and some other load I had shot MOA. Mark may remember the load.
I forgot to take 69 grain SMK's. Range report to follow from this Sunday shoot.
Very strange, I wish it shot 77's well, it was built for distance.
Is this faxon 1/8 twist?
I've had similar issues with another 1/8 twist
Any heavier than 62g the group opens up
I've heard of folks who have around moa
Group with 1/7 twist 11.5 barrels using 77smk
I have every possible size barrel in 1:7 , 10.3, 11.5, 14.5, 16 all group moa with 77's. I was shocked when this 16 inch barrel shot atrocious with SMK 77's.
I am hopeful to get SMK 69's to cruise with this barrel. That would suffice me. I've never seen any barrel close up groups THAT MUCH by dropping a few grains off the BULLET.
I not super impressed but I'll live with it.
hmmm - looks like I'm going to cross off any 1/8 twist barrels from my future builds...sigh
I would contact Faxon on this. Something besides twist rate is off. They should stand behind a new barrel.
I shoot 77gr TMK and OTM with a 1:8 twist rate match barrel from another manufacturer and it is sub-Moa at 100yds.
Twist rate isn’t causing the problem.
I contacted them and they said shoot 60-70 grain bullets. Seems strange even if they are right. I agree 1/8 isn't the issue.
PB
I have every possible size barrel in 1:7 , 10.3, 11.5, 14.5, 16 all group moa with 77's. I was shocked when this 16 inch barrel shot atrocious with SMK 77's.
I am hopeful to get SMK 69's to cruise with this barrel. That would suffice me. I've never seen any barrel close up groups THAT MUCH by dropping a few grains off the BULLET.
I not super impressed but I'll live with it.
Just to reduce any wild cards, Got any factory ammo to run through it? I am assuming you are using custom loads since you referred to "proven loads"
I would be interested to hear how faxon treats you on this
I am looking at a pencil or gunner for my next build...
I contacted them and they said shoot 60-70 grain bullets. Seems strange even if they are right. I agree 1/8 isn't the issue.
PB
Hmm- I missed that. So they ARE saying their 1/8 will NOT group rounds over 70grain? Ouch
What exact barrel is this?
Just to reduce any wild cards, Got any factory ammo to run through it? I am assuming you are using custom loads since you referred to "proven loads"
I would be interested to hear how faxon treats you on this
I am looking at a pencil or gunner for my next build...
I'm taking the trusty Black hill next week, just to do so. Not positive which barrel, but it's skinny skinny skinny
PB
Could be useful:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?203765-1-8-Twist-Ammo-Selection
I’ve read that when manufacturers label a barrel twist, there can be a fudge factor one way or the other. Don’t remember where I saw that or what the reason is. Perhaps your 1/8 is actually 1/9; you could measure it with a twisty cleaning rod and jag.
I would contact Faxon on this. Something besides twist rate is off. They should stand behind a new barrel.
I shoot 77gr TMK and OTM with a 1:8 twist rate match barrel from another manufacturer and it is sub-Moa at 100yds.
Twist rate isn’t causing the problem.
I agree
Hmm- I missed that. So they ARE saying their 1/8 will NOT group rounds over 70grain? Ouch
What exact barrel is this?
No. I believe the guy said they had the best luck in the 60-70 range. NOT that the barrel wouldn't shoot heavier stuff.
When we took the barrel out on week two, all groups were better. The best was a hot 55 gr game king load that I'd put together last year some time.
It also shot the 77 gr house load MUCH better, but not quite sub MOA. The barrel is spaghetti strap thin, and we have a Sig can hanging on the front of it, so harmonics may be super sensitive.
crosseyedshooter
01-26-18, 00:44
The barrel is spaghetti strap thin, and we have a Sig can hanging on the front of it, so harmonics may be super sensitive.
Is it the pencil profile or Gunner profile?
When we took the barrel out on week two, all groups were better. The best was a hot 55 gr game king load that I'd put together last year some time.
It also shot the 77 gr house load MUCH better, but not quite sub MOA. The barrel is spaghetti strap thin, and we have a Sig can hanging on the front of it, so harmonics may be super sensitive.
Faxon, so I assume it's nitrided/QPQ? The twist rate theory and your harmonics theory have merit, but it is possible the barrel may just need several hundred rounds to settle in. I have seen and experienced this several times with nitrided barrels. The surface is so hard that the imperfections take many rounds to smooth out. For this reason, it's common for precision barrels to be hand-lapped or fired a few times before being nitrided.
You're likely aware of all this... Send another couple hundred rounds through it and test again? Curious minds want to know.
triggerjerk
01-26-18, 09:04
I am curious: wouldn't barrel length and resulting velocity interact with twist to produce rpms necessary to stabilize a bullet? Faster bullet as it leaves barrel = higher rpm?
Recognize gun to gun, barrel to barrel diffs and admit I have no experience with short barrels. Little experience with ar.....
But?
SomeOtherGuy
01-26-18, 10:01
I am curious: wouldn't barrel length and resulting velocity interact with twist to produce rpms necessary to stabilize a bullet? Faster bullet as it leaves barrel = higher rpm?
Recognize gun to gun, barrel to barrel diffs and admit I have no experience with short barrels. Little experience with ar.....
This is correct. The stability is a primary function of the bullet rotational RPM, and that results from a combination of both twist rate and muzzle velocity. However, the difference is not that large even for significant changes in MV. You can play with the calculator here:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
And get a good sense of it. Berger's 77gr OTM was still stable in a 1:8 at just 2200fps MV, per this calculator.
I suspect that the new barrel and pencil profile are the main issues.
We are hopeful that the barrel needs to settle in with more round count. We brought this up as a potential causative factor. It would be truly stunning if this barrel goes from 5 MOA to MOA with round count. I bought some premium ammo from Bonefrog, we have some 69 SMK's to try and we have Black Hills 77 and 69's to try. Very excited to try the BH fodder.
Barrel twist is but one factor in stabilizing bullets. I have a 1/9 Rem 700 5R bolt gun that shoots 80 grain SMK's light out. It is the most accurate gun that Mark or I have ever shot. There is a great sticky on this about barrels if i'm not mistaken.
I am committed to make this barrel work, I have too much $$ in the gun and SLR gas block that won't fit any other barrel I own. This is the skinniest pencil I have ever seen. The gun handles very nicely. I'll get Mark to post some pics since I'm Photo challenged on M4.
Is it the pencil profile or Gunner profile?
I don't even know who FAXON is... let alone the model.
Faxon, so I assume it's nitrided/QPQ? The twist rate theory and your harmonics theory have merit, but it is possible the barrel may just need several hundred rounds to settle in. I have seen and experienced this several times with nitrided barrels. The surface is so hard that the imperfections take many rounds to smooth out. For this reason, it's common for precision barrels to be hand-lapped or fired a few times before being nitrided.
You're likely aware of all this... Send another couple hundred rounds through it and test again? Curious minds want to know.
No doubt... that seems to be the case. We were fixin to do a mag dump or two... I think Pappabear did dump some rounds last Sunday.
The Remington 700 Barrel is how long?
Is the faxon a 556 or 223wylde?
Pencil or gunner?
Is the faxon a 556 or 223wylde?
Pencil or gunner?
556 NATO, pencil
The Remington 700 Barrel is how long?
20 inch barrel
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
Afaik
Thin profiles can have very good accuracy but are generally not good for sustained firing
As they heat up and poi changes
Some develop vertical stringing
I built an upper for my nephew using a melonited barrel that took a little over 300 rounds to settle in. This is the only one that took this many rounds to do so. I stripped the copper at 50, 150, then at 300 rds. After that it tightened right up. I was worried it would foul quick but it’s had another 500 69gr tmk’s through it and it hasn’t started opening up yet. I’ve built 6 of these for friends and family from the same barrel manufacturer(4150 cmv AR15Performance) and 1 other melonited Lothar Walther with good results. 3 of them are 1-8 twist rate and they shoot everything up to 77gr tmk’s well. I haven’t shot anything heavier. I’ve never used a Faxon barrel. Don’t give up on it yet.
556BlackRifle
01-28-18, 12:23
I installed a 16" Pencil barrel on a light weight build. Like yours the barrel looked beautiful but the accuracy was horrible. I thought it might have to do with the 2A T3 muzzle device but removing it didn't change anything. I tried LC XM193 ball - which has been great for what it is when shot through my 16" Recce light, 16" Colt 6920 and even my 10.5" CQB, as well as several other off the shelf brands and weights. No help. I expect variability in a pencil barrel but not as much as I've seen from this one. Hell, my Mini-14 shoots tighter groups. I haven't had time but I plan to work up a load and see if I can find the sweet spot for this barrel.
I installed a 16" Pencil barrel on a light weight build. Like yours the barrel looked beautiful but the accuracy was horrible. I thought it might have to do with the 2A T3 muzzle device but removing it didn't change anything. I tried LC XM193 ball - which has been great for what it is when shot through my 16" Recce light, 16" Colt 6920 and even my 10.5" CQB, as well as several other off the shelf brands and weights. No help. I expect variability in a pencil barrel but not as much as I've seen from this one. Hell, my Mini-14 shoots tighter groups. I haven't had time but I plan to work up a load and see if I can find the sweet spot for this barrel.
How many rounds through the barrel? I'm wondering if it'll improve after a couple hundred rounds.
This doesn't look good for faxon
Have you contacted them?
A
I installed a 16" Pencil barrel on a light weight build. Like yours the barrel looked beautiful but the accuracy was horrible. I thought it might have to do with the 2A T3 muzzle device but removing it didn't change anything. I tried LC XM193 ball - which has been great for what it is when shot through my 16" Recce light, 16" Colt 6920 and even my 10.5" CQB, as well as several other off the shelf brands and weights. No help. I expect variability in a pencil barrel but not as much as I've seen from this one. Hell, my Mini-14 shoots tighter groups. I haven't had time but I plan to work up a load and see if I can find the sweet spot for this barrel.
Range report. This barrel continues to improve each week. I believe it might need 300 rounds to be good to go. I have no idea round count, but probably 150-200 rounds. Here are the results:
We tried the XBR loaded Sierra 55gr Gamekjngs and they shot MOA once again.
The Black hills TMK 69 grainers shot 2 inches, I was hopeful it would get better
Markm's 69gr SMK house load shot 1.5 MOA, Hell Yes!
Tried some Federal 62gr OTM 2.5 inches, oh well I tried
Federal Tactical Bonded 62 grainers, complete shit show, 3 to 4 inches
Hornady 60grain Varmint load, 1.5 MOA
Then we went back to the 77 gr Noslers, house load that shot 5 MOA, 1.5 MOA! You talk about being shocked, I have seen barrels tighten up but never 5 MOA to 1.5 MOA. I would also add it was windy as hell and we are using a 1-8 scope, not exactly an ideal set up. I would expect on a less windy day and better scope and these groups would tighten a bit.
Im going to take it for one more week then clean it and let it know it made the Team!
Pics to follow compliments of Markm.
Good to hear the update but a bit of a let down to hear these require hundreds of rounds to "shoot in"
Pics of bench set up?
Good to hear the update but a bit of a let down to hear these require hundreds of rounds to "shoot in"
Pics of bench set up?
I wouldn't say that all of them need it. It's just that the nitride process creates a surface that is so hard that any imperfections can take a while to erode/smooth via shooting.
Glad you boys were successful PB.
That does seem a stretch- to go from 5 to 1.5 MOA just with "fire lapping" a bunch of rds.
Glad you boys were successful PB.
That does seem a stretch- to go from 5 to 1.5 MOA just with "fire lapping" a bunch of rds.
Fire lapping, I like it. haha
556BlackRifle
01-28-18, 18:20
How many rounds through the barrel? I'm wondering if it'll improve after a couple hundred rounds.
Low compared with my usual but certainly enough. ~200. There shouldn't be any break in required IMO.
This doesn't look good for faxon
Have you contacted them?
A
No. But I will after I run some precision grade rounds through it.
556BlackRifle
01-28-18, 18:26
Range report. This barrel continues to improve each week. I believe it might need 300 rounds to be good to go. I have no idea round count, but probably 150-200 rounds. Here are the results:
We tried the XBR loaded Sierra 55gr Gamekjngs and they shot MOA once again.
The Black hills TMK 69 grainers shot 2 inches, I was hopeful it would get better
Markm's 69gr SMK house load shot 1.5 MOA, Hell Yes!
Tried some Federal 62gr OTM 2.5 inches, oh well I tried
Federal Tactical Bonded 62 grainers, complete shit show, 3 to 4 inches
Hornady 60grain Varmint load, 1.5 MOA
Then we went back to the 77 gr Noslers, house load that shot 5 MOA, 1.5 MOA! You talk about being shocked, I have seen barrels tighten up but never 5 MOA to 1.5 MOA. I would also add it was windy as hell and we are using a 1-8 scope, not exactly an ideal set up. I would expect on a less windy day and better scope and these groups would tighten a bit.
Im going to take it for one more week then clean it and let it know it made the Team!
Pics to follow compliments of Markm.
Thanks for the update PB. That's what I was hoping to hear.
The Faxon is on the gun in the front.
https://i.imgur.com/dESfwpq.jpg
Some of the test ammo:
https://i.imgur.com/3zEzLSf.jpg
Some of the results:
https://i.imgur.com/k6bpfWM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Opf5GN3.jpg
Thanks
What's the verdict?
Im just going to rock this barrel. It might still yet improve. We really expect just about any barrel to shoot MOA these days, but this is one SKINNY barrel and shouldn't be surprised it is a little finicky. If it can shoot our 77 load 1.5 MOA, that is good enough to get any job done except a target contest which I have no interest.
It is a welcomed family edition. Shoots like a cream puff with the SLR block and balances / handles great. It is a nice rig. Hell next week, it might be .5 MOA gun :)
PB
The settling in period is an interesting thing. I have two precision barrels, a BCM 16" SS 410 and a White Oak 18" SPR that I put together just recently. The BCM needed around 200 rounds before the groups came down from MOA to .6x and .7x. Before this last weekend I had 300 on the SPR and finally saw some movement to the smaller groups.
The XBR load looks promising in your pics.
I wish I'd have taken a pick of the barrel prior to installation. It's ported at .080" and ran nice without the suppressor. With the suppressor, it runs great due to the SLR adjustable block.
It seems to like the 55 gr gamekings with XBR the best.
The settling in period is an interesting thing. I have two precision barrels, a BCM 16" SS 410 and a White Oak 18" SPR that I put together just recently. The BCM needed around 200 rounds before the groups came down from MOA to .6x and .7x. Before this last weekend I had 300 on the SPR and finally saw some movement to the smaller groups.
The XBR load looks promising in your pics.
It is going to be interesting to watch this barrel settle in. Maybe it likes XBR, maybe a certain velocity, bullet weight..but finding the right combo is going to be a fun project. Id really like for it to shoot our 77 load MOA just because I like that stuff. Mark built a White Oak SPR 18 inch for me, it was a laser beam for a long time.
I have a standard Varget load that my BCM likes with either 77gr SMK or 75gr Hornady. In the WOA it's been MOA so far so figured I would give the XBR a try. Shows some promise at 22.9 with 77gr SMK. Forgive the 4 round group, lost count on the group before!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180129/1f8664f5373c110221239af39adcc0c6.jpg
I have a standard Varget load that my BCM likes with either 77gr SMK or 75gr Hornady. In the WOA it's been MOA so far so figured I would give the XBR a try. Shows some promise at 22.9 with 77gr SMK. Forgive the 4 round group, lost count on the group before!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180129/1f8664f5373c110221239af39adcc0c6.jpg
Thats legit shooting and grouping. That XBR has treated is so good and produced some really hot loads that performed well.
PB
Thanks. Wondering how far I can push it velocity wise and retain accuracy. What are your experiences? At 22.9 I think I can probably go another .5gr.
Thanks. Wondering how far I can push it velocity wise and retain accuracy. What are your experiences? At 22.9 I think I can probably go another .5gr.
Mark was at 24.2 with the Gamekings 55gr, so I would expect you to be safe. We found a good variation in lot to lot "hotness" with XBR, but you have already got a base load, so you should be fine. Do you know your velocity?
PB
I chrono'd 5 groups yesterday and got 2703, 2710, 2715, 2716 and 2730 averages. 2710 and 2730 were loaded at 2.24" and the rest at 2.25". The worst ES at 111 is the best group that you see above. The others were 30, 40 and 50 ES. All loaded on a Dillon 550. Usually when I know I am going to be shooting distance, I use a single stage set up and the ES comes down to 20-30 consistently.
I chrono'd 5 groups yesterday and got 2703, 2710, 2715, 2716 and 2730 averages. 2710 and 2730 were loaded at 2.24" and the rest at 2.25". The worst ES at 111 is the best group that you see above. The others were 30, 40 and 50 ES. All loaded on a Dillon 550. Usually when I know I am going to be shooting distance, I use a single stage set up and the ES comes down to 20-30 consistently.
Mark does not single hand load any 556 ammo and produces MOA ammo all day every day. That 111 ES is a bit out there. Black Hills produces 2800fps plus out of a 20 inch gun, the Gold Standard! You may bump a little, but go slow to make sure its safe. How big are the squares on your target ? or should I just ask, what size is that group? What primers are you running?
PB
PB
I'm going to use one of those barrels for my next build. 16" mid length with 1/8, pencil profile. They tend to settle into about 1.5 moa. They are cheap, but good. They do require a breaking in period as you see.
Great barrel for a lightweight build. They heat up fast, but cool down fast as well.
Mark does not single hand load any 556 ammo and produces MOA ammo all day every day. That 111 ES is a bit out there. Black Hills produces 2800fps plus out of a 20 inch gun, the Gold Standard! You may bump a little, but go slow to make sure its safe. How big are the squares on your target ? or should I just ask, what size is that group? What primers are you running?
PB
PB
Completely missed your post before! One inch grid, 100 yards, so just a little over .5 MOA. Primers were the Rem 71/2 BR. I also have some Winchester SR and some cheapo Sellier & Bellot SR to use. Was out today and had some similar groups with a 5 round flyer. Was a little warmer plus I put a light crimp on and was getting around 2750. At this point, my vertical dispersion has been pretty good but have been dealing with some horizontal stringing. I was thinking of trying 23.2gr but I am a little concerned about the summer and how much the velocity will rise from low 70's to 100*F plus temps.
Completely missed your post before! One inch grid, 100 yards, so just a little over .5 MOA. Primers were the Rem 71/2 BR. I also have some Winchester SR and some cheapo Sellier & Bellot SR to use. Was out today and had some similar groups with a 5 round flyer. Was a little warmer plus I put a light crimp on and was getting around 2750. At this point, my vertical dispersion has been pretty good but have been dealing with some horizontal stringing. I was thinking of trying 23.2gr but I am a little concerned about the summer and how much the velocity will rise from low 70's to 100*F plus temps.
2750 at .5 MOA, WIN WIN Chicken dinner. I would call that good. I'm pretty good with MOA, I'm real good at around .5. I always consider I'm at .25 MOA part of the problem.
PB
HelloLarry
02-08-18, 07:08
I know Douglas claims that it isn't necessary to lap barrels, but most match barrels are lapped. You'd think they would run at least one lap through it to knock off the burrs.
Glad it's turned around for you.
ETA: Oh, and when it comes to 1 1/2 MOA guns, you can win a lot of matches shooting from your hands with a 1 1/2 MOA gun. So, that's not bad.
ETA: Oh, and when it comes to 1 1/2 MOA guns, you can win a lot of matches shooting from your hands with a 1 1/2 MOA gun. So, that's not bad.
We are spoiled Divas. We expect everything we touch to shoot 1/2 MOA.
Thanks for the information
I was considering this but it seems this faxon 1/8 twist does not group reliably on most loads over 55gr
Thanks for the information
I was considering this but it seems this faxon 1/8 twist does not group reliably on most loads over 55gr
I'd guess it's more of the MacDonald's straw profile than the twist.
BufordTJustice
02-11-18, 09:49
Thanks for the information
I was considering this but it seems this faxon 1/8 twist does not group reliably on most loads over 55gr
My FAXON 18" rifle gas GUNNER went through a working in period, though way less drastic (Gunner by FAXON is government profile behind the gas block and pencil in front) with 70+ grainers. Several hundred rounds in, it shot them great. Specifically, Hornady 70gr GMX TAP and IMI 77gr Razor OTM.
It wears a primary Arms red dot, but I have been able to put both 55gr m193 and 70gr TAP onto an IPSC swinger at a verified 500 yards without issue, from mag monopod prone.
The 18" Gunner is 1:8.
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Update range report. Took the Faxon pencil out Sunday. We were doing mostly big gun long range stuff. I ran it out to 750 popping steel along the way. Mark grabbed it and drilled a clean sub moa group. It just stuns me to see a barrel go 5 MOA to clean sub moa.
I’m going to run more groups next week, along with a Noveske that has shot so so that I did a big copper cleaning. That Melonite process must be the cause and effect to such a long break in process.
Just pretty amazing, pretty pleased this rifle came together.
PB
Nice.
Glad it straightened out and shoots PB.
Have a BA pencil barrel that did similar; from 3 MOA to 1 but it took a couple hundred rds.
It is also a nitride barrel.
After all this drama, we took the barrel out after all this and it shot all over the board again. So Faxon sent me an RMA and Im going to let them figure it out. My love affair on again off again has been a bit much, but I hope they make good. Or I hope when they test, it has a bad day.
I appreciate their efforts regardless.
PB
vicious_cb
10-25-18, 23:42
NO barrel should be shooting 5 moa out of the box. I wouldnt even bother wasting the ammo trying to make the barrel settle.
Lesson learned, I took the challenge and it has won. I bought a damn $200 gas block which is part of the pain, one of the skinny ones too which makes it less attractive to move around on guns.
We shall see what Faxon can do. I hear good things.
PB
everready73
10-26-18, 20:58
They took care of a few others on the other site that had issues.
From what I hear they were having issues with the company that was doing the QPQ on the barrels. Rough chambers etc that caused the same type of symptoms you are reporting. They have since switched to another company for the QPQ. I would push to have the barrel replaced if they don't offer that so a solution. They have publicly started the QPQ issues if you want to bring that up.
I was shocked to read what they just sent me , check this out . " Hi Philip,
QC looked over the barrel and came to the conclusion that this barrel has seen quite a bit of use. Erosion around the gas port and throat indicate thousands of rounds of use.
Unfortunately we cannot replace the barrel as it is impossible to tell if any poor performance is the result of defects or just the product of wear from use. We can return the barrel to you, but we cannot authorize a replacement on a barrel in this condition.
Thanks,
Martin
Faxon Firearms"
There is no way I have even a thousand rounds down this pipe. There were no mag dumps and the gun was used to bang steel out 750 most of the time, precision type shooting. Makes you wonder what they consider a barrel is shot out at round count wise, 2,000 rounds?? Evidently QC doesn't know jack squat which may explain a lot. I did what I rarely do and took a chance on brand X and got burnt. Shame on me.
Had they told me 3MOA is what you get with a skinny barrel, that would be one thing, but to come up with this BS is a bit surprising.
I asked Martin what Faxon what they considered the round count that would be to ruin a barrels accuracy to ??MOA. I just wonder what they think their barrels should last and still shoot as they did in their first hundreds of rounds.
PB
Interested in this as I was considering faxon for my next build
QC looked over the barrel and came to the conclusion that this barrel has seen quite a bit of use. Erosion around the gas port and throat indicate thousands of rounds of use.
Unfortunately we cannot replace the barrel as it is impossible to tell if any poor performance is the result of defects or just the product of wear from use. We can return the barrel to you, but we cannot authorize a replacement on a barrel in this condition.
This is comedy because that would be more than the round count fired over all our guns over the time period this shit barrel has been in the rotation. Tells me the barrel material and/or their QPC process is bad.
SomeOtherGuy
11-02-18, 11:34
Wondering if defective heat treat or steel quality might give the appearance of higher round count than actual. Which is what Mark's last comment is suggesting.
Any gunsmiths / other experts want to take this barrel and inspect it, then measure its hardness? I know of two companies that contract "private label" manufacture of barrels to Faxon and I suspect there are more, so any issue with their QC would be of broad interest.
Shame that Nathan is no longer at Faxon to look into this.
I have two Faxon barrels in use, with modest round counts. So far the early production (possibly first batch) 20" Gunner is very accurate and soft, while the 16" gunner is overgassed and harsh but otherwise OK.
A shame... Faxon had built a name for themselves over the last few years but things don't seem the same after Nathan left.
Adios, Faxon.
Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
A shame... Faxon had built a name for themselves over the last few years but things don't seem the same after Nathan left.
Adios, Faxon.
Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
Absolutely what I was thinking. Probably not the best time to alienate customers with the softening of the AR market.
Andy
everready73
11-02-18, 13:13
I would escalate this to a manager and explain the situation. I know you probably just want to leave it at this point, but you did spend time and money on the barrel and all the ammo.
I would call in and ask to speak with Pat. He posts on the other site in their industry forum. I believe he took over for Nathan.
I would leave a link to this thread as well.
I wonder if the throat looks shredded as well.
SomeOtherGuy
11-02-18, 15:09
I would escalate this to a manager and explain the situation. I know you probably just want to leave it at this point, but you did spend time and money on the barrel and all the ammo.
I would call in and ask to speak with Pat. He posts on the other site in their industry forum. I believe he took over for Nathan.
I would leave a link to this thread as well.
+100%
Faxon seemed quite serious about quality before, and AFAIK Nathan was a PR guy, not a principal. I would escalate and see if this might just be 1-2 guys not looking at the barrel properly.
These threads have a tendency to go dogpile much too quickly. Let's see if this is a whole-company problem or just a bad CS issue one time.
Point well taken, and I am guilty of snap judgment more often than I realize. On the other hand, there's no lack of quality barrel mfgrs nowadays. Eliminating one off my list of contenders makes choosing easier.
Let's see what Faxon does next.
Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
I asked what round count should see accuracy diminish. " Hi Philip,
We have barrels that had 10k rounds put through them at a rate of 120 rds, allowed to cool and shot again until a thousand round had been shot. They were then measured, cleaned and shot for accuracy. This was done ten times with no appreciable degradation in accuracy. The wear in your barrel looks to be on the order of thousands of rounds, not hundreds. If the barrel was used when you received it, it is difficult to determine the conditions under which it was fired. Unfortunately, the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.
The barrel will ship back within two business days.
Thanks,
Mark
Customer Service"
I told the guys I bought it pre owned but new in wrapper. Evidently they have no idea how ridiculous this even sounds, 10,000 rounds??
PB
vicious_cb
11-02-18, 16:37
I asked what round count should see accuracy diminish. " Hi Philip,
We have barrels that had 10k rounds put through them at a rate of 120 rds, allowed to cool and shot again until a thousand round had been shot. They were then measured, cleaned and shot for accuracy. This was done ten times with no appreciable degradation in accuracy. The wear in your barrel looks to be on the order of thousands of rounds, not hundreds. If the barrel was used when you received it, it is difficult to determine the conditions under which it was fired. Unfortunately, the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.
The barrel will ship back within two business days.
Thanks,
Mark
Customer Service"
I told the guys I bought it pre owned but new in wrapper. Evidently they have no idea how ridiculous this even sounds, 10,000 rounds??
PB
Its that magical QPQ process they keep talking about :rolleyes:. Obviously it sooo much better than chrome lined. Faxon is one of the worst offenders to push nitride barrels as the superior barrel finish.
My advice is treat people who push nitride barrels like that like the liberal media.
I asked what round count should see accuracy diminish. " Hi Philip,
We have barrels that had 10k rounds put through them at a rate of 120 rds, allowed to cool and shot again until a thousand round had been shot. They were then measured, cleaned and shot for accuracy. This was done ten times with no appreciable degradation in accuracy. The wear in your barrel looks to be on the order of thousands of rounds, not hundreds. If the barrel was used when you received it, it is difficult to determine the conditions under which it was fired. Unfortunately, the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.
The barrel will ship back within two business days.
Thanks,
Mark
Customer Service"
I told the guys I bought it pre owned but new in wrapper. Evidently they have no idea how ridiculous this even sounds, 10,000 rounds??
PB
If their gonna use a technicality to get out of an obligation of remedying a problematic barrel from round 1 that has been documented in this very thread.....than that says quite a bit about the company.
It also doesn't speak well about a barrel maker/seller when they can be so wrong about a barrel's wear?
Sorry you guys are going through this, as the rest of the build sounds awesome, and something I'd love to shoot.
I asked what round count should see accuracy diminish. " Hi Philip,
We have barrels that had 10k rounds put through them at a rate of 120 rds, allowed to cool and shot again until a thousand round had been shot. They were then measured, cleaned and shot for accuracy. This was done ten times with no appreciable degradation in accuracy. The wear in your barrel looks to be on the order of thousands of rounds, not hundreds. If the barrel was used when you received it, it is difficult to determine the conditions under which it was fired. Unfortunately, the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.
The barrel will ship back within two business days.
Thanks,
Mark
Customer Service"
I told the guys I bought it pre owned but new in wrapper. Evidently they have no idea how ridiculous this even sounds, 10,000 rounds??
PB
Sorry for the dumb question, but is it possible that the barrel you bought was actually that used?
Sorry for the dumb question, but is it possible that the barrel you bought was actually that used?
I assembled the upper, and there was no sign at all of usage. No sign of a muzzle device being mounted. No sign of the barrel ever being mounted into an upper, etc.
I assembled the upper, and there was no sign at all of usage. No sign of a muzzle device being mounted. No sign of the barrel ever being mounted into an upper, etc.
I figured as much. Just thought I'd ask the obvious question.
Sorry for the dumb question, but is it possible that the barrel you bought was actually that used?. It actually came in a plastic wrapper that was not open. Im 90% sure, but the barrel had not been shot. wrapper or no wrapper, I bought as new and would have been pissed and not even sent back to company.
Yes it was new.
PB
I'm guessing a bad QPQ batch. There's probably other shooters running the barrels without magnified optics, and thus wouldn't be seeing the strange accuracy issues we observed.
I'm guessing a bad QPQ batch. There's probably other shooters running the barrels without magnified optics, and thus wouldn't be seeing the strange accuracy issues we observed.
In my years going to test ARs for precision/accuracy at 100yd ranges, I've seen only a couple other shooters that were actually testing an AR @ 100yds with a proper optic, and setup to do so. This is especially true in current times with the explosion of $400-500 ARs, and those who buy them.
In my years going to test ARs for precision/accuracy at 100yd ranges, I've seen only a couple other shooters that were actually testing an AR @ 100yds with a proper optic, and setup to do so. This is especially true in current times with the explosion of $400-500 ARs, and those who buy them.
Yeah. Honestly if it were set up with irons, and I was getting 4 inch groups, I'd chalk it up to aging eyes. And if it were a cqb type set up, I'd never notice the poor performance.
bamashooter
11-03-18, 16:42
I'm guessing a bad QPQ batch. There's probably other shooters running the barrels without magnified optics, and thus wouldn't be seeing the strange accuracy issues we observed.
My experience with Faxon was quite different as was, come to find out, another guy (at the same time) (barfcom). See my pic for what I'm attempting to describe. We noticed marks on the tossed brass. My AR functioned fine. The other guy had purchased two barrels and had both the marks and I believe an extraction problem. Faxon either replaced or repaired his barrels. I had contacted that Mark fellow and explained my problem to him. He was nice enough about it and said they'd do whatever was needed to correct it asap. I told him having researched and identified the problem along with a self-remedy, I simply used a .38 mop and some Flitz a few times on a drill in and out, cleaning the chamber. Didn't polish it by any means; just smoothed it out. No more marred brass. Being honest with him, I asked if my remedy would void any warranty. He said no and that's in writing.
The problem was a bad QPQ job. During my correspondence with "Mark" he told me the problem and that they "fired" the shop who did their QPQ, etc work and went with another contractor. My 2 cents regarding QPQ. This is actually the other guy's brass but mine was same/same.
https://i.imgur.com/MLWJ7uS.jpg
On 11/2/ I was told they would send my barrel back in two days. Still no barrel. I sent a message a couple days ago, where is my barrel. NOTHING - CRICKETS
I did however buy an awesome BCM barrel that shot MOA day one. All my guns have historically shot well, functioned well, bla bla bla because I bought BCM, Colt , LMT and the stuff runs. I take one stupid chance on brand X got burnt. I feel like the idiot that post, I bought a frankenburger and it taste like shit - shocker.
Oh well back in the fold. Life is good with BCM.
PB
If that chamber was smoothed out with a drill and flitz, I'd really be concerned at how hard the QPQ was in the rest of the barrel. That would explain why Pappabear's barrel looked like a 10k barrel at only 500+/- rounds. (according to Faxon) - we don't have a bore scope.
Paints a really poor picture of Faxon. Bargain grade price, bargain grade support.
On 11/2/ I was told they would send my barrel back in two days. Still no barrel. I sent a message a couple days ago, where is my barrel. NOTHING - CRICKETS
I did however buy an awesome BCM barrel that shot MOA day one. All my guns have historically shot well, functioned well, bla bla bla because I bought BCM, Colt , LMT and the stuff runs. I take one stupid chance on brand X got burnt. I feel like the idiot that post, I bought a frankenburger and it taste like shit - shocker.
Oh well back in the fold. Life is good with BCM.
PB
PB, which BCM barrel did you buy? I'm also of the opinion that "only accurate rifles are interesting." Thanks.
bamashooter
11-14-18, 07:51
If that chamber was smoothed out with a drill and flitz, I'd really be concerned at how hard the QPQ was in the rest of the barrel. That would explain why Pappabear's barrel looked like a 10k barrel at only 500+/- rounds. (according to Faxon) - we don't have a bore scope.
No idea. I did 6-7 45/60 second sessions with a decent application of Flitz to the mop each time. I only have perhaps 350 or so rounds through the barrel. Does fine and looks great with my untrained eye. Looks new internally. My understanding is what I smoothed away was similar to or was residual salts.
turnburglar
11-14-18, 09:44
One of my carbines has the newer 'gunner match' barrels in the 14.5 flavor. It's lmost brand new and only has a rough zero and maybe 200 rounds through it. After reading this thread I am really curious to get it on the true 100m line and recover my brass. It's ancedotal evidence for sure, but this is supposed to be their best attempt at a barrel and its newer. Maybe it will show where their quality is at now.
And of course I have a BCM and PSA barrel I can compare it too on the same day.
What really thows me off thouhg isnt that you got a lemon, its the way they are handleing the customer service. All companies throw out a bad product, but the good ones fix it ASAP.
EDIT: here's the specs faxon posts for the barrel
Barrel Material: 416R Stainless Steel
Barrel Type: 5R Button Rifled
Barrel Caliber: .223 Wylde
Barrel Twist: 1:8
Barrel Length: 14.5”
Barrel Profile: GUNNER
Barrel Gas System: Mid
Inside Finish: Salt Bath Nitride
Outside Finish: Salt Bath Nitride
Muzzle Thread: 1/2-28 TPI (Threads Per Inch)
Gas Block Diameter: .625"
Gas Block Journal Length: 1.9"
Barrel Extension: M4 - Nickel Teflon Coated
Weight: 1.20 lbs
Magnetic Particle Inspected!
Polished 11-degree Target Crown
Yea, it stunned me too that they didn't give a shit nor did they attempt to make things better. And suggested I had 10K rounds down the pipe. How could you look at a barrel and think that is beyond me.
PB
PB, which BCM barrel did you buy? I'm also of the opinion that "only accurate rifles are interesting." Thanks.
I bought the (BCM-BRL-MID-16LW STD BCM Standard 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) Barrel, Stripped (.625))
I went with this barrel because I had a $200 or so adjustable gas block in the .625 variety. It handled great and shot great. Very happy with the BCM barrel. The gun is now super sweet. I just couldn't use an LMT MARS lower with Geiselle rail....and crappy barrel. I couldn't let that go.
PB
Yea, it stunned me too that they didn't give a shit nor did they attempt to make things better. And suggested I had 10K rounds down the pipe. How could you look at a barrel and think that is beyond me.
PB
Send them this thread ?
I was considering faxon but now will not
Probably ballistic advantage
bamashooter
11-14-18, 17:03
But, but .................
Faxon: "All barrels are manufactured under our ISO:9001 and AS:9100 (pending) quality certifications. We inspect each barrel over 15 times before it ever reaches you.
https://www.rainierarms.com/faxon-firearms-308-win-dpms-pattern-barrel-16/
vicious_cb
11-14-18, 17:29
But I thought Faxon makes high quality parts for serious shooters...oh wait.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/581/3189/15A58M14NGQ-NCR-003__04049.1540559960.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/579/3193/20181025_161615__57648.1540561010.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/549/3100/FF556BCGCNITRIDE-LW-NCR-001__12262.1529094508.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
But but I thought Faxon makes high quality parts for serious shooters...
If you put the BCG in a Spikes Tactical carbine, you'd have 2 dicks and a rainbow ...
Now we know who is supplying weapons to Antifa...
Is Barack working for Faxon now, because those barrel look just like the White House did not too long ago?
Andy
But I thought Faxon makes high quality parts for serious shooters...oh wait.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/581/3189/15A58M14NGQ-NCR-003__04049.1540559960.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/579/3193/20181025_161615__57648.1540561010.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-f1hwux/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/549/3100/FF556BCGCNITRIDE-LW-NCR-001__12262.1529094508.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
Oh shit that killed me, quality post.
But, but .................
Faxon: "All barrels are manufactured under our ISO:9001 and AS:9100 (pending) quality certifications. We inspect each barrel over 15 times before it ever reaches you.
https://www.rainierarms.com/faxon-firearms-308-win-dpms-pattern-barrel-16/
Iso certification doesnt mean shit. It means you have a system for paperwork. I feel like people think iso cert means you have to have a certain level of quality to your product. It doesnt.
No idea. I did 6-7 45/60 second sessions with a decent application of Flitz to the mop each time. I only have perhaps 350 or so rounds through the barrel. Does fine and looks great with my untrained eye. Looks new internally. My understanding is what I smoothed away was similar to or was residual salts.
Assuming they use cyanide salts, i would hope they dont ship hazmat to customers, especially if not labeled as such. 2nd, water would dissolve it quite quickly.
If their gonna use a technicality to get out of an obligation of remedying a problematic barrel from round 1 that has been documented in this very thread.....than that says quite a bit about the company.
It sucks, but it is not a technicality. Unless they state their warranty is transferable they can take care of him or not at their discretion.
I believe that if they were not going to take care of him they should have simply returned the barrel with a note that their warranty only applies to parts which are purchased new. Telling PB the barrel (which is almost certainly a faulty part) is worn out made them look like idiots.
This thread would also have a different ending if they said "The pencil barrels are not designed for optimal accuracy. We can either return the barrel to you or issue a $xxx credit towards the purchase of a ____________ barrel which is designed to deliver the level of accuracy that you are looking for."
Andy
To me using an implied, or even stated non transferable warranty policy is indeed a technicality....i.e. a point of law or a small detail of a set of rules.
If they would have come at me personally with "sorry, pencil barrels are not designed for optimal accuracy" to explain why my barrel's results were so terrible, I'd tell them that my Colt pencil barrels have been excellent in terms of accuracy(are also widely regarded for this as Molon did a write up on them), and my DD pencil barrel shoots a 1.1MOA 10rd group at 730yds. There is no excuse for AK accuracy in an AR-15. Any quality AR-15 barrel should be well within 3MOA at 100yds with FMJ ammo.
Every barrel shoots slightly different, and thus barrel manufacturer's reputations are built over time, across a wide number of individual barrels produced. So I'd never base a companies overall ability to produce barrels based on a sample of one. However, I will not do business with a barrel manufacturer based on one vetted report of a very poorly handled CS issue due to bad QC. There are just too many other outfits that make great barrels, and back them up to do business with ones that don't.
I did not word the hypothetical reply well.
If they had offered him credit towards a different barrel, we all would have a different opinion of Faxon right now.
I'm not defending their decision, and certainly not criticizing PB for expecting to receive a quality barrel in the first place, or expecting a much higher level of customer care.
My Faxon barrel shoots quite well; this thread is making me think I got lucky.
Andy
If they had offered him credit towards a different barrel, we all would have a different opinion of Faxon right now.
Exactly. I don't know anyone at faxon or anything about the company. But we wasted a few hundred dollars in ammo, Labor in making the ammo and assembling the upper, etc. WELL in excess of the price of the barrel.
And they reply that it's too shot out to diagnose after 500 or so rounds?
Oh well... here's its beautiful chrome lined replacement BCM barrel:
https://i.imgur.com/uaw5e2T.jpg
On 11/2/ I was told they would send my barrel back in two days. Still no barrel. I sent a message a couple days ago, where is my barrel. NOTHING - CRICKETS
I did however buy an awesome BCM barrel that shot MOA day one. All my guns have historically shot well, functioned well, bla bla bla because I bought BCM, Colt , LMT and the stuff runs. I take one stupid chance on brand X got burnt. I feel like the idiot that post, I bought a frankenburger and it taste like shit - shocker.
Oh well back in the fold. Life is good with BCM.
PB
After how I was treated about 6 years ago by Faxon, I vowed to never spend a dime with them. There are other and BETTER product available with great CS.
I just purchased a Faxon pencil barrel for a lightweight build I am doing
I also purchased their lightweight gas block and slim comp.
I made my purchase on all the good things I heard about them, this is the first negative review I have ran across.
Will definitely document every aspect of the build and how it works out with the end results.
Build consist of a Mag Tactical magnesium lower and a Fostech magnesium upper with lightweight 13.5 M-loc handguard.
Will keep you posted on the progress and the results after I get it to the range.
I bought the (BCM-BRL-MID-16LW STDBCM Standard 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) Barrel, Stripped (.625))
I went with this barrel because I had a $200 or so adjustable gas block in the .625 variety. It handled great and shot great. Very happy with the BCM barrel. The gun is now super sweet. I just couldn't use an LMT MARS lower with Geiselle rail....and crappy barrel. I couldn't let that go.
PB
Just now reading through this thread. That’s impressive for the barrel, the few posts I’ve seen about actual BCM accuracy are typically decent but not great. I assume you were using your 77 SMK handloads?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BufordTJustice
12-21-18, 15:18
I was an early adopter of Faxon barrels and have bought several from them. But this behavior from them is disturbing and is not something that I can excuse, nor would I try to.
Hell I'm local to ballistic advantage, and either BRT or BA will get my business from now on.
Faxon is f*cking up huge here.
Almost like Kimber/SIG leadership transitioned to Faxon.
Such a shame as my 18" first run Gunner, 16" Gunner, and 308 16" medium-taper all shoot lights out. Not to mention the half dozen I built uppers around for various friends and co-workers. I won't sell what I've got, but I'll not buy another.
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Wow, just ran across this post. Was planning on using the 16" gunner, for the wife's next build.
After reading this I am not so sure. They have great reviews. Plenty of people "claiming" MOA, some even Sub MOA.
So if I understand this, it started out with 5" groups , went down to 1.5" and later jumped back up to 5" groups.
And then customer service debacle.
Hmmm
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The real issue is their customer service, everybody can produce a lemon, its where it goes from there that matters. They failed miserable and don't care.
PB
I have a BCM elw barrel. It’s accuarcy first mag far exceeded my expectations.
I’ve never really understood the whole new flavor of the month ‘budget’ companies that get such huge followings. I’m just a big sucker for the long term performance and reputation of a company.
Sounds like faxon will be one of the many flavors of the month that comes and goes.
I had a BCM barrel that was minute of barn. Never again. Anyways, I had such good results with faxon's SOCOM line in 18" and 10.5, that I went and got another in 16. This was my first time having issues as the brass looked squeezed tight because of the rings around it. On a hunch after an inspection, the chamber looked like it needed to be honed. I messaged Faxon on Facebook and they told me to do it myself and that it would not void anything. I have nothing against doing it myself but to be told to fix it myself that was their mess up all along and not any apology, pissed me off. I will no longer be buying anything from Faxon.
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