View Full Version : M27 officially replaces the M4 with Marines?
BoringGuy45
02-01-18, 21:18
Well, according to this, it sounds like the M27 is now officially to be the USMC's new rifle. https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/hk-protest-usmc-fields-m27-iar-shot-show-2018/
Anyone have any further insight into the truth of this?
It's been touched on. They could do worse. I think it's not a bad idea from a layperson's perspective.
They are versatile rifles. IAR, Carbine, SPR, etc while all being functionally the same.
This was the idea sorta behind the XM8 project where everyone had the same gun just different roles. For a relatively small branch, this isn't a bad idea.
Maybe go to G rails later.
ETA Author needn't look much farther, there are quite a few rifles assembled in GA ready to buy.
I just hope people dont try to chase the HK 243/433 dragon.
Right now I believe the plan is to buy up to 58,000 and issue just to infantry.
MountainRaven
02-02-18, 01:28
Only problem I can think of is that it's heavy for a general purpose rifle. Maybe the Marines will eventually put a lighter barrel in the general issue guns and call them M27A1s.
BoringGuy45
02-02-18, 01:48
I also have to wonder if the Army is going to consider changing its mind and pick up a 416 variant as well. It seems like they have a thing about not letting the Marines get cooler toys then them. A decade ago, the Marines got their cool, new digital camo. So the Army needed to get a cool, new digital camo that was uniquely their own. Now the Marines have a cool new rifle, so I'd imagine the Army will want one as well.
Not to mention, it's France's new rifle, potentially Germany's new rifle (we'll see what happens with the 433, of course), it's been Norway's rifle for awhile, and it's been the rifle for all the top SOF and CT units in the Western World.
It's going to be an interesting few years in firearms development. If the US Army picks it, the 416 design will likely be the new standard for AR design.
Not an expert, just a bloke with an opinion but....if all goes according to prophecy; the 433 will be the "new" export gun for HK while they finally adopt the 416. There's a reason for the mag interoperability between AR/G36 magazines. It's really not the gun the 416 is. More of a less irritating G36. So, ideally Bundeswehr finally buys the 416 and the lesser nations who buy HK G36s will buy 433s and the G36 slowly and quietly gets retired. The rifle (G36) is a stop-gap footnote between G3 and 416.
Without getting into the lame piston v. DI debate; 41x rifles check a lot of boxes and have a solid track record.
If the Germans pick the 433 then something fell through.
I doubt the big army will adopt the 416 because DI guns aren't broke and 416s aren't cheap even at wholesale price.
But if one is going to run a rifle as an IAR then yeah a piston facilitates that a bit easier. But otherwise it would be unnecessarily prohibitive. For a smaller branch like the Marine Infantry, not a bad idea. But at a certain point there's just too much gun for people who realistically wouldn't need it and where the current rifle checks all the boxes.
Besides both normal ARs and the 416 use the same magazines. They are interesting rifles and I'd love to get an MR 556 at some point.
I would never make full use of the rifle's potential just hitting paper but despite a bit more heft; the rifles offer exceptional accuracy out of the box and just plain work. An easy button for sure.
I think we, if the stars align, may be seeing a 1980s HK 2.0 in America with the new Army CSASS, the Marine M27, and an uptick in US production. Quality will be the same and before anyone scoffs; most Mercedes and VWs are made in Alabama and Tennessee.
The VP9 is a much worthier Glock alternative than Sig or M&P. There's interesting things afoot and if price can come down on 556 and 762s then they will be much more attainable as opposed to being kind of a luxury gun.
A lot going on to consider.
They are not going Corps-wide; the current plan is for infantry only.
Excellent news for the Marines.
Bad news for budget conscious LARPErs
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Dist. Expert 26
02-02-18, 07:49
Apparently the infantry is (finally) going to get 21st century gear and training too. Ops-core helmets, electronic ear pro, squad level comms, binocular NVGs, UTVs, suppressors etc.
The older officers and SNCOs will fight it tooth and nail (I had a battalion commander that wouldn't let us wear FROG gear on deployment), but it's definitely the right track. Train and equip infantry to a higher standard so they can relieve some of the burden on SOF.
Apparently the infantry is (finally) going to get 21st century gear and training too. Ops-core helmets, electronic ear pro, squad level comms, binocular NVGs, UTVs, suppressors etc.
The older officers and SNCOs will fight it tooth and nail (I had a battalion commander that wouldn't let us wear FROG gear on deployment), but it's definitely the right track. Train and equip infantry to a higher standard so they can relieve some of the burden on SOF.
Those things were at a 'test and evaluation' level. They won't be distributed infantry-wide.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/13/marine-uber-squad-will-get-suppressors-m27s-socom-gear.html
Definitely a step in the right direction.
Dist. Expert 26
02-02-18, 08:14
Those things were at a 'test and evaluation' level. They won't be distributed infantry-wide.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/13/marine-uber-squad-will-get-suppressors-m27s-socom-gear.html
Definitely a step in the right direction.
There's also units out west working along the same lines. Like I said, they'll have to fight tooth and nail to get there, but I think it'll happen.
A more recent article:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/marine-corps-times/2018/01/22/modernizing-infantry-marines-big-changes-coming-as-grunts-take-on-more-special-ops-style-missions/
Outlander Systems
02-02-18, 08:36
Meh.
Shoulda gone with the OICW.
Army is holding out for LSAT, polymer cased telescoped ammo in the 6-6.5 mm range is the future. Then hopefully the Marines will surplus all their M27 uppers. :dance3:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/08/lsat-6-5mm-plastic-cased-ammo-armys-next-small-arms-program/
Doc Safari
02-02-18, 10:17
I want to know more about the 16" barrel being "more lethal." The article isn't 100% clear on this.
I want to know more about the 16" barrel being "more lethal." The article isn't 100% clear on this.
I'm sure it has to do with the little bit extra velocity generated vs. the M4.. adds a little bit to "lethal" range.
Doc Safari
02-02-18, 10:28
I'm sure it has to do with the little bit extra velocity generated vs. the M4.. adds a little bit to "lethal" range.
So, to open a can of worms....our civilian 16" carbines were superior all along?
So, to open a can of worms....our civilian 16" carbines were superior all along?
I like to think so ;).. maybe USMC should have just stuck to the A4's and modded them a bit. Of course, this one has a piston and everyone knows a piston is better...
16" is a good 80% length.
Not much it can't do without messing with new calibers.
The future is 16" Mid length gas for DI.
14.5 comes from the CAR-15 and working around the carbine gas.
The difference is so negligible as to be moot ballistics wise.
The bullet is gonna spin the exact same amount of revolutions before leaving the barrel regardless.
The Colt CAR (not CAR-15 but CAR) 24" ekes out more revolutions per twist rate but that's a lot of barrel and was pretty niche (but an interesting rifle).
ETA to clarify I dont think/know if the Colt CAR was ever used by the military but was in Colt Catalogue for some years and was marketed towards the police for a semi auto precision rifle
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 10:54
There is no future for DI systems.
There is no future for DI systems.
I must respectfully disagree.
You will not find a more proven, weight reducing small arms innovation.
Of what I have, my "not coming back" rifle is a DI 7.62.
In the year 2065, there will still be DI rifles in combat use provided energy weapons aren't a thing.
vicious_cb
02-02-18, 11:39
The biggest thing to come out of this is that the USMC found to a way to sidestep the procurement process for a new rifle.
The bad thing is the increase in soldiers load. Giving everyone a 12lb is basically reversing the trend of the last 60+ years. Now we're back to M1 Garand levels of weight except everyone is now rucking 105lb worth of gear + that 12lb rifle. You're putting a lot of dudes in the hurt locker.
Its like the Russians giving everyone an RPK or a the Brits giving everyone a LSW.
The fact is, if you give the M4 an HK uber barrel(high chromium content Aubert & Duval chrome-molybdenum-vanadium steel, cold hammer forged to give a tapered bore, and heat treated to 41 Rockwell C, then chrome lined) and an improved bolt you can achieve much of the same performance of the M27 at a lighter weight and lower cost.
The awesomeness of the 416 isnt the piston system, its the fact that Germans being Germans, overengineered the shit out the rifle. Except you're paying for that in increased weight, cost and recoil impulse.
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 11:50
I must respectfully disagree.
You will not find a more proven, weight reducing small arms innovation.
Of what I have, my "not coming back" rifle is a DI 7.62.
In the year 2065, there will still be DI rifles in combat use provided energy weapons aren't a thing.
What I'm trying to point out is that no one is making a new DI based weapon that isn't some type of an AR15 variant. In my estimation, DI cannot go away fast enough and should only exist in the footnotes of weaponry history. Once the entire military adopts piston variants and hopefully non AR based firearms- then we will finally be able to move toward the future of small arms technology. The AR 18 should be the focus of future design elements.
The awesomeness of the 416 isnt the piston system, its the fact that Germans being Germans, overengineered the shit out the rifle. Except you're paying for that in increased weight, cost and recoil impulse.
This. Really if they go to a G rail, they will shave some weight. The piston is amusing, but the main selling point of the HK is the barrel. It'll beat a rack grade Colt or FN all day.
I get why they keep the pic rail but 416s can be lightened up. An HK CR556 feels way lighter than you'd think.
Per cost, I think for what you are getting it isn't unreasonable.
Per recoil impulse, kinda subjective.
But I do agree, the piston itself is not the selling point. The HK is an OTB rifle with a factory barrel that is hard to beat without a modified SPR.
What I'm trying to point out is that no one is making a new DI based weapon that isn't some type of an AR15 variant. In my estimation, DI cannot go away fast enough and should only exist in the footnotes of weaponry history. Once the entire military adopts piston variants and hopefully non AR based firearms- then we will finally be able to move toward the future of small arms technology. The AR 18 should be the focus of future design elements.
You shan't find a bigger AR-18 fan than me, my dude, but AR-15 is once and future king for a reason.
Outlander Systems
02-02-18, 12:00
But the AR15 shits where it eats, r-right g-guys?
You shan't find a bigger AR-18 fan than me, my dude, but AR-15 is once and future king for a reason.
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 12:03
You shan't find a bigger AR-18 fan than me, my dude, but AR-15 is once and future king for a reason.
I still don't see what the AR15 excels at in particular other than ergonomics. Once that gap is closed with other less ammo/environmental sensitive gas systems- then we'll realize advancements in small arms technology. Here is a step in the right direction;
https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/assault-rifles/hk433/hk433/overview.html
But the AR15 shits where it eats, r-right g-guys?
Lots of STEG here
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I still don't see what the AR15 excels at in particular other than ergonomics. Once that gap is closed with other less ammo/environmental sensitive gas systems- then we'll see the advancement in small arms technology.
Don't take this poorly, but nobody really cares if you don't see where the AR-15 is excelling. People have been trying to dethrone the AR15 for decades and the people who get paid to shoot bad guys all day seem happy with it or some variant thereof.
ETA OMG Stop trying to make the 433 happen. It's never going to happen.
But the AR15 shits where it eats, r-right g-guys?
Last I checked, high functioning coprophages that get results still get results!
BoringGuy45
02-02-18, 12:41
I still don't see what the AR15 excels at in particular other than ergonomics. Once that gap is closed with other less ammo/environmental sensitive gas systems- then we'll see the advancement in small arms technology.
Modularity, accuracy, and it's a remarkably reliable rifle despite its early reputation.
The whole ambidextrous, multicaliber thing has been all the rage for the past 10 or so years, but the AR has already been ambidextrous and multi-caliber for longer than that. People make a big thing about being able to quickly change the barrel on a SCAR, XCR, ACR, ARX160, etc. Well, pop the two pins on the AR lower, swap the upper, and boom! New caliber, new barrel length, or whatever you need.
As for reliability, the AR is still near the top. Even with dirty ammo and in dirty environments, it still excels.
Western countries have a lot of choices, and good ones, before them for service rifles. We have the FNC, SG550, G36, SCAR, AUG, HK33, AUG, and 805 BREN to name a few. But even with all those choices, the AR and its variants (including the 416) remain the weapon of choice. Even countries that don't issue an AR for a service rifle usually issue it for special operations. They could choose any of the rifles I named above, but most still choose the AR. I think that says something about its overall quality.
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 12:44
Don't take this poorly, but nobody really cares if you don't see where the AR-15 is excelling. People have been trying to dethrone the AR15 for decades and the people who get paid to shoot bad guys all day seem happy with it or some variant thereof.
ETA OMG Stop trying to make the 433 happen. It's never going to happen.
Given your argument we should only have 1911's. The classic; "did your Glock win two world wars because my 1911 did". Look, if you want a DI AR then you can keep your DI AR's. In fact there's hundreds of manufacturers to choose from. However I welcome more advanced weapon systems personally and look forward to the day we can finally have advanced ergonomics along with a gas piston system. I've seen glimpses of the future in modern designs be it HK, B&T, FN, CZ, Steyr, or Radom- and the future is bright.
I wonder if the next generation of issue will take on more this look given some of the specs listed within their RFI for the next rifle.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180202/bf1d39be0acc5d421a8dacc1bcbfeb70.jpg
I still don't see what the AR15 excels at in particular other than ergonomics. Once that gap is closed with other less ammo/environmental sensitive gas systems- then we'll realize advancements in small arms technology. Here is a step in the right direction;
https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/assault-rifles/hk433/hk433/overview.html
Maybe someday, but that day ain't anytime soon. With the 1911 analogy, it did take them over 90 years to replace it, and still they are in use in the military.
Doc Safari
02-02-18, 13:08
So this thread degenerates into DI vs. piston?
Seriously?
GLOBAL DELETE.
So this thread degenerates into DI vs. piston?
Seriously?
GLOBAL DELETE.
Is it any worse than the SOTU thread devolving into evolution?
Doc Safari
02-02-18, 13:16
Is it any worse than the SOTU thread devolving into evolution?
Apples and oranges. At least it didn't degenerate into a "what kind of lube are you using?" thread.
Apples and oranges. At least it didn't degenerate into a "what kind of lube are you using?" thread.
Disagree first part, TOTALLY agree second....
Given your argument we should only have 1911's. The classic; "did your Glock win two world wars because my 1911 did". Look, if you want a DI AR then you can keep your DI AR's. In fact there's hundreds of manufacturers to choose from. However I welcome more advanced weapon systems personally and look forward to the day we can finally have advanced ergonomics along with a gas piston system. I've seen glimpses of the future in modern designs be it HK, B&T, FN, CZ, Steyr, or Radom- and the future is bright.
Ah-ah, I didn't say that. I said what I said:
A. The 416's main selling point is its barrel and better rack grade accuracy
B. Nobody, with all due respect, cares about your opinions on small arms advancements.
C. The 433, of which you have no knowledge, is not the "next big thing". It is essentially HK's Galil ACE and will cost less to produce than the 416. What do I mean by "HK's Galil ACE"? That it is intended to replace the G36 as a catalogue rifle for export. The German military wants the 416. It all depends on the budget. Obviously it wont affect special units regardless which way the wind blows.
I'm not going to be sucked into Urinary Olympics over this. You can enjoy what you want, but the HK rifle is being picked for a lot of reasons, the piston being incidental to those reasons.
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 13:48
Ah-ah, I didn't say that. I said what I said:
A. The 416's main selling point is its barrel and better rack grade accuracy
B. Nobody, with all due respect, cares about your opinions on small arms advancements.
C. The 433, of which you have no knowledge, is not the "next big thing". It is essentially HK's Galil ACE and will cost less to produce than the 416. What do I mean by "HK's Galil ACE"? That it is intended to replace the G36 as a catalogue rifle for export. The German military wants the 416. It all depends on the budget. Obviously it wont affect special units regardless which way the wind blows.
I'm not going to be sucked into Urinary Olympics over this. You can enjoy what you want, but the HK rifle is being picked for a lot of reasons, the piston being incidental to those reasons.
Well if the 416's main feature is just the barrel, then why not just outfit the M4 with a German barrel and be done with it? Besides, FN already makes an M4 with a high quality hammer forged barrel yet the Marine's are still going to the M27 anyway? Perhaps the barrel isn't the only reason for the upgrade.
7n6
vicious_cb
02-02-18, 14:27
Well if the 416's main feature is just the barrel, then why not just outfit the M4 with a German barrel and be done with it? Besides, FN already makes an M4 with a high quality hammer forged barrel yet the Marine's are still going to the M27 anyway? Perhaps the barrel isn't the only reason for the upgrade.
7n6
Because bureaucracy, why take 10 years to change the TDP when they can just procure a rifle already in the system. How long did it take to start issuing M4s Fleet wide in the USMC, like 2015?
Look at what the special units who have the latitude to procure their own systems are doing. USASOC are getting uppers with DD secret sauce CHF 14.5 mid barrels enough to outfit whole ranger battalions. The even cooler guys are getting Hodge/FN's version of an uber barrel.
I WISH HK made M4 barrels hoping some would fall off the back of a truck so I could get one. Its hard enough trying to get a Hodge/FN uber barrel.
Dist. Expert 26
02-02-18, 14:53
This. Really if they go to a G rail, they will shave some weight. The piston is amusing, but the main selling point of the HK is the barrel. It'll beat a rack grade Colt or FN all day.
I get why they keep the pic rail but 416s can be lightened up. An HK CR556 feels way lighter than you'd think.
Per cost, I think for what you are getting it isn't unreasonable.
Per recoil impulse, kinda subjective.
But I do agree, the piston itself is not the selling point. The HK is an OTB rifle with a factory barrel that is hard to beat without a modified SPR.
I saw a marked increase in qualifying scores when dudes were shooting an M27 vs an M16/M4. And that was with the, in my opinion, worthless SDO. When I went through the trainer course they told us to use "the tip of the circle" to confirm zero at 100. The RMR on top was also entirely useless unless you were rocking a SAW.
It's all around just a better rifle, minus the weight penalty. The trigger is better, the stock is better, the rail is heavy as shit but better, and obviously the barrel is better. Would I rather have a Mk 18? Absolutely. But it's a step in the right direction.
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 15:20
What is the Rockwell on the Hk416 vs MR556? Last I read the MR556 tested at 26RC. Comparison wise, a Bulgarian 104 or SAM7 hammer forged barrel comes in between 25RC to 27RC. While some of the Polish Radom barrels come up just under 30RC. Read some nitrided barrels come in between 28RC-32RC overall hardness, not the actual surface only. Some 4140 heat treated barrels stated on one website are between 28RC-32RC which is the same as nitride. I don't think there is anything particularly special about an HK 416/M27 barrel other than perhaps the taper so it's not just the barrel.
WickedWillis
02-02-18, 15:27
Because bureaucracy, why take 10 years to change the TDP when they can just procure a rifle already in the system. How long did it take to start issuing M4s Fleet wide in the USMC, like 2015?
Look at what the special units who have the latitude to procure their own systems are doing. USASOC are getting uppers with DD secret sauce CHF 14.5 mid barrels enough to outfit whole ranger battalions. The even cooler guys are getting Hodge/FN's version of an uber barrel.
I WISH HK made M4 barrels hoping some would fall off the back of a truck so I could get one. Its hard enough trying to get a Hodge/FN uber barrel.
Lol we still can't even buy chrome-lined HK416 barrels and uppers here in the states normally
RetroRevolver77
02-02-18, 15:51
Lol we still can't even buy chrome-lined HK416 barrels and uppers here in the states normally
Nitrided 4140 barrels only come in at general hardness of 28RC-32RC anyway. Which is roughly the same as what you get with a quality hammer forged barrel. Given the MR556 supposedly tests at a 26RC hardness from a post I read on HKPro, then not sure what's significantly better about the 416 given they use the same barrel blank- other than chrome lining for additional protection. Otherwise, just get a decent AR barrel and be done with it. What this likely boils down to is that the military just wants a piston fed rifle like everyone else has. Now they can shoot underwater or whatever they think they need that for.
Moose-Knuckle
02-02-18, 17:34
At least it didn't degenerate into a "what kind of lube are you using?" thread.
So what kind of lube are you using these days and how big is your daddy's wedding tackle?
:jester:
MountainRaven
02-02-18, 22:51
The biggest thing to come out of this is that the USMC found to a way to sidestep the procurement process for a new rifle.
The bad thing is the increase in soldiers load. Giving everyone a 12lb is basically reversing the trend of the last 60+ years. Now we're back to M1 Garand levels of weight except everyone is now rucking 105lb worth of gear + that 12lb rifle. You're putting a lot of dudes in the hurt locker.
Its like the Russians giving everyone an RPK or a the Brits giving everyone a LSW.
The fact is, if you give the M4 an HK uber barrel(high chromium content Aubert & Duval chrome-molybdenum-vanadium steel, cold hammer forged to give a tapered bore, and heat treated to 41 Rockwell C, then chrome lined) and an improved bolt you can achieve much of the same performance of the M27 at a lighter weight and lower cost.
The awesomeness of the 416 isnt the piston system, its the fact that Germans being Germans, overengineered the shit out the rifle. Except you're paying for that in increased weight, cost and recoil impulse.
I don't know if you've seen what Russian SOF are rocking, but once they get done dragging their AK-74Ms through Zenitco and CAA catalogs, they weigh in at about 12 lbs. And I'm not certain that the Army's M4A1 carbines in general circulation weigh much less, with those SOCOM contour barrels.
What is the Rockwell on the Hk416 vs MR556? Last I read the MR556 tested at 26RC. Comparison wise, a Bulgarian 104 or SAM7 hammer forged barrel comes in between 25RC to 27RC. While some of the Polish Radom barrels come up just under 30RC. Read some nitrided barrels come in between 28RC-32RC overall hardness, not the actual surface only. Some 4140 heat treated barrels stated on one website are between 28RC-32RC which is the same as nitride. I don't think there is anything particularly special about an HK 416/M27 barrel other than perhaps the taper so it's not just the barrel.
It's not just the barrel: It's also the hand guard.
Stiff, sturdily-mounted, and free-floating.
vicious_cb
02-03-18, 00:28
I don't know if you've seen what Russian SOF are rocking, but once they get done dragging their AK-74Ms through Zenitco and CAA catalogs, they weigh in at about 12 lbs. And I'm not certain that the Army's M4A1 carbines in general circulation weigh much less, with those SOCOM contour barrels.
It's not just the barrel: It's also the hand guard.
Stiff, sturdily-mounted, and free-floating.
Yes Im aware of what the Russians are using in Syria, their "modern" RATNIK kit is about as heavy as IBA circa 2006. They are just recently getting their hands dirty with combat experience in Syria. They'll probably end up learning the same lessons we did in Afghanistan and start trying to field more lightweight gear when they get out maneuvered by dudes in sandals.
The difference in weight between the M4 gov't profile barrel and the M4A1 SOCOM is 4 oz under the handguards, contrary to popular belief the SOCOM barrel is medium profile. The M27 has a 16.5" literal heavy barrel, .865" behind the gas block.
Again I use the umbrella term overengineered as the reason why 416 is good, because its more than just a barrel and handguard. Pretty much everything about the 416's materials and processes are proprietary trade secrets. Notice how they dont list what kind of alloy their receivers are made of? Or the reasoning behind their taller receiver? The M16/M4 materials are pretty much unchanged since the 1960's.
The HK is the sum of its parts all right. People think "Durrrr its cuz its got a piston" but the same way people say "Duurrr its got electrolytes"
The rifle is one huge workaround but for the better in a lot of ways. It was initially the "HK M4" but thats when Colt was suing folks over "M4" (Bushmaster caught it too)
The magwell that folks whine about was based on the SA80, the Bolt Group impressive, the barrel is Kraut Space Magic, and the trigger is much nicer than the standard (until Geissele anyways). It is pretty much its own gun in an AR style with familiarity and the newer lowers are ambi.
It's heavier than normal but you get a lot of good from it. People focus on the piston and not the impressive engineering. It isn't "perfect" and while I would like one of my own; I wouldn't sell off all my stuff for one although if it were my only rifle, I wouldn't feel bad either.
Just appreciate it for what it is. It checks off quite a few boxes
The HK is the sum of its parts all right. People think "Durrrr its cuz its got a piston" but the same way people say "Duurrr its got electrolytes"
The rifle is one huge workaround but for the better in a lot of ways. It was initially the "HK M4" but thats when Colt was suing folks over "M4" (Bushmaster caught it too)
The magwell that folks whine about was based on the SA80, the Bolt Group impressive, the barrel is Kraut Space Magic, and the trigger is much nicer than the standard (until Geissele anyways). It is pretty much its own gun in an AR style with familiarity and the newer lowers are ambi.
It's heavier than normal but you get a lot of good from it. People focus on the piston and not the impressive engineering. It isn't "perfect" and while I would like one of my own; I wouldn't sell off all my stuff for one although if it were my only rifle, I wouldn't feel bad either.
Just appreciate it for what it is. It checks off quite a few boxes
I will say that after I picked up my 10.4 HK upper the design work that went into it is noticeably a cut above. With the G rail it’s really like a finely crafted piece of engineering that actually performs. Even with the straight taper barrel profile it’s not unwieldy by any means.
I needed a second host for one of my Surefire cans and figured this would be ideal.
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leibermuster
02-03-18, 09:01
You made the right choice. Jpmuscle
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You made the right choice. Jpmuscle
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#clonecorrectLARPlife
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The bolt carrier group is a flipping work of art.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s5/v127/p554384010-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v111/p960534285-5.jpg
Dist. Expert 26
02-03-18, 09:42
The bolt carrier group is a flipping work of art.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s5/v127/p554384010-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v111/p960534285-5.jpg
I can't believe I forgot to mention that. Everything about the BCG screams quality.
RetroRevolver77
02-03-18, 12:53
The HK is the sum of its parts all right. People think "Durrrr its cuz its got a piston" but the same way people say "Duurrr its got electrolytes"
The rifle is one huge workaround but for the better in a lot of ways. It was initially the "HK M4" but thats when Colt was suing folks over "M4" (Bushmaster caught it too)
The magwell that folks whine about was based on the SA80, the Bolt Group impressive, the barrel is Kraut Space Magic, and the trigger is much nicer than the standard (until Geissele anyways). It is pretty much its own gun in an AR style with familiarity and the newer lowers are ambi.
It's heavier than normal but you get a lot of good from it. People focus on the piston and not the impressive engineering. It isn't "perfect" and while I would like one of my own; I wouldn't sell off all my stuff for one although if it were my only rifle, I wouldn't feel bad either.
Just appreciate it for what it is. It checks off quite a few boxes
You keep going down this path that somehow all this has nothing to do with the piston for adopting the M27 but it's 100%- the piston. We can't build a free a float handguard M4 with a hammer forged barrel and a decent trigger? Doesn't KAC already build exactly that with the SR16E3 series? Seems we could have saved a lot of money just adopting a KAC carbine rather going down the road with an HK. Vickers however discussed the 416's development on one of his videos. They wanted to create an AR based weapon that could pass an over the beach test, improve reliability along with having free floating barrel for accuracy. HK offered all that. Trust me, I have a nice collection of factory Colt AR's all done up like mil spec originals. However once big army switches to HK, then I to will embrace the future and get rid of my DI rifles.
7n6
You keep going down this path that somehow all this has nothing to do with the piston for adopting the M27 but it's 100%- the piston. We can't build a free a float handguard M4 with a hammer forged barrel and a decent trigger? Doesn't KAC already build exactly that with the SR16E3 series? Seems we could have saved a lot of money just adopting a KAC carbine rather going down the road with an HK. Vickers however discussed the 416's development on one of his videos. They wanted to create an AR based weapon that could pass an over the beach test, improve reliability along with having free floating barrel for accuracy. HK offered all that. Trust me, I have a nice collection of factory Colt AR's all done up like mil spec originals. However once big army switches to HK, then I to will embrace the future and get rid of my DI rifles.
7n6
Both can exist. It isn't just about the piston, it is about the rifle and the package. This all or nothing attitude, based on what big army does is next to meaningless. Big army doesn't buy Tavors, or any numbe of other rifles, I own.
Dist. Expert 26
02-03-18, 13:31
You keep going down this path that somehow all this has nothing to do with the piston for adopting the M27 but it's 100%- the piston.
Dude, we get it. You love piston guns. But that's not why the USMC went this route. I went through the trainer course and talked with my battalion gunner (CWO4) about it. The piston aspect was a very small part of the decision.
You keep going down this path that somehow all this has nothing to do with the piston for adopting the M27 but it's 100%- the piston. We can't build a free a float handguard M4 with a hammer forged barrel and a decent trigger? Doesn't KAC already build exactly that with the SR16E3 series? Seems we could have saved a lot of money just adopting a KAC carbine rather going down the road with an HK. Vickers however discussed the 416's development on one of his videos. They wanted to create an AR based weapon that could pass an over the beach test, improve reliability along with having free floating barrel for accuracy. HK offered all that. Trust me, I have a nice collection of factory Colt AR's all done up like mil spec originals. However once big army switches to HK, then I to will embrace the future and get rid of my DI rifles.
7n6
I don't mind you disagreeing with me but please dont make inferences. What I say is what I say.
The Big Army simply will not be going all HK. That boat sailed with the XM8.
Yet again, the HK is the sum of its parts. The piston is incidental to the totality of the rifle.
Even if the entire military went to SR-15s tomorrow; it wouldn't be feasible. There is more to procurement than "This is new! It must be good!".
SOF units had SCAR Ls and stuck with M4s or HKs. On paper, the SCAR L is great but it wasn't an AR. Gas rifles aren't going anywhere for what they are.
A rack grade HK will stomp a rack Colt or FN. Fact. But a Gas SPR....eehhhh....not so much.
This isn't hard. Most non combat types simply dont need HK rifles. And sometimes, those with a choice, don't need a piston.
But something like a Ranger Batt, SMU, or Marine Infantry gets a solid 80% gun.
The future, really, is in the Geissele upper.
I know you have a predilection for a piston gun but different tools for different jobs.
I feel like, sometimes, you'd almost say everyone should use a kitted up AK, possibly in 5 45, and my advice is to see if Russia has a Foreign Legion and have at it.
RetroRevolver77
02-04-18, 15:23
I don't mind you disagreeing with me but please dont make inferences. What I say is what I say.
The Big Army simply will not be going all HK. That boat sailed with the XM8.
Yet again, the HK is the sum of its parts. The piston is incidental to the totality of the rifle.
Even if the entire military went to SR-15s tomorrow; it wouldn't be feasible. There is more to procurement than "This is new! It must be good!".
SOF units had SCAR Ls and stuck with M4s or HKs. On paper, the SCAR L is great but it wasn't an AR. Gas rifles aren't going anywhere for what they are.
A rack grade HK will stomp a rack Colt or FN. Fact. But a Gas SPR....eehhhh....not so much.
This isn't hard. Most non combat types simply dont need HK rifles. And sometimes, those with a choice, don't need a piston.
But something like a Ranger Batt, SMU, or Marine Infantry gets a solid 80% gun.
The future, really, is in the Geissele upper.
I know you have a predilection for a piston gun but different tools for different jobs.
I feel like, sometimes, you'd almost say everyone should use a kitted up AK, possibly in 5 45, and my advice is to see if Russia has a Foreign Legion and have at it.
So an HK 416 is better than a standard issue Colt or FN but not better than an SPR? Better how? Anyway, from my perspective it seems the military wants to transition to a modern piston variant long term. They'll field DI guns for the most part because that's what they have but over time they'll likely transition. They want that AK reliability coupled with AR ergonomics- I can appreciate that.
7n6
Dist. Expert 26
02-04-18, 15:40
So an HK 416 is better than a standard issue Colt or FN but not better than an SPR? Better how? Anyway, from my perspective it seems the military wants to transition to a modern piston variant long term. They'll field DI guns for the most part because that's what they have but over time they'll likely transition. They want that AK reliability coupled with AR ergonomics- I can appreciate that.
7n6
AK reliability...are we really going to go down that road again?
MountainRaven
02-04-18, 15:44
So an HK 416 is better than a standard issue Colt or FN but not better than an SPR? Better how? Anyway, from my perspective it seems the military wants to transition to a modern piston variant long term. They'll field DI guns for the most part because that's what they have but over time they'll likely transition. They want that AK reliability coupled with AR ergonomics- I can appreciate that.
An AK may be more durable than an AR, but I've never seen anything to suggest that an AK is more reliable than an AR.
When most global SOF have reached for a 5.56mm rifle (or carbine) over the last 50 years, they have mostly reached for AR-15s. Even before black o-rings, carbine feedramps, mid- and intermediate-length gas systems, Magpul followers, and tungsten buffer weights. And for good reason: It's lightweight, accurate, ergonomically sound, and reliable.
Only recently has that really shifted to the HK416 - and I'm not sure that's because the HK416 really is all that great or if it's because US SOF like Delta and DEVGRU use them and so everybody has to have them (like how everybody had to have the MP5 because of its use by the SAS in the 1980s).
I'm reminded that LAV once mentioned that a piston-operated rifle like the HK416 makes the most sense under the following conditions:
-Lots of suppressed use.
-Lots of use with a short (≤11") barrel.
-Lots of full-auto use.
-Lots of use with ammunition with large variations in port pressure.
So when the guy who helped design the HK416 says that you don't really get anything out of a piston gun when you're shooting unsuppressed, semi-automatically, with 14.5-16" (or 11.5-20", for that matter) barrels, and one (maybe two) types of ammunition built to a spec... which is about what 99.9% of hard use guns will see from about 99.9% of their handlers... you don't need - or even particularly want the added weight and complication of - a piston in your AR.
vicious_cb
02-04-18, 16:08
AK reliability...are we really going to go down that road again?
Not this shit again...
https://media1.tenor.com/images/36a55b291030530011e3c954bbc53342/tenor.gif?itemid=9099179
BoringGuy45
02-04-18, 16:09
I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we thought that the lure of the 416 in no way, shape, or form has to do with the piston operation. If it only had to do with the quality of the barrel, BCG, and trigger, among other things, there are dozens of quality companies that could offer something near to the quality of HK in DI gun, and at probably quite a bit less of a price tag.
The DI system is a good one; it's time proven, and it's superior to most of the piston systems on the market today. But pretty consistently, even this site rates the 416, along with the PWS and the LMT piston systems, as ones that are the exception. A piston operated system, whether it's in an AR or another rifle, offers advantages, and disadvantages for that matter, over a DI system. In the case of the 416, I don't think anyone has considered the piston as a weakness.
While your average soldier or marine may not need something along the lines of a 416, the standard AR has a lot of design features that your average soldier or marine really doesn't need as well. Hell, with how little some of the support units actually fire their weapons, the military could probably supply them with M&P Sports and no one would notice the difference. Except the price tag, I don't see too many downsides to issuing a 416 variant to all our services. Advantages? Time would tell, but really no reason not to beyond "Nothing wrong with what we already got."
It'll be an interesting few years coming up.
vicious_cb
02-04-18, 16:12
I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we thought that the lure of the 416 in no way, shape, or form has to do with the piston operation. If it only had to do with the quality of the barrel, BCG, and trigger, among other things, there are dozens of quality companies that could offer something near to the quality of HK in DI gun, and at probably quite a bit less of a price tag.
Uh no, there aren't. There are literally 2 piston AR mfgs with gov't contracts and one of them is the subject of the thread.
MountainRaven
02-04-18, 16:32
Uh no, there aren't. There are literally 2 piston AR mfgs with gov't contracts and one of them is the subject of the thread.
You missed the part where he said, "in DI gun."
RetroRevolver77
02-04-18, 17:10
I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we thought that the lure of the 416 in no way, shape, or form has to do with the piston operation. If it only had to do with the quality of the barrel, BCG, and trigger, among other things, there are dozens of quality companies that could offer something near to the quality of HK in DI gun, and at probably quite a bit less of a price tag.
Agree plenty of manufacturers make quality DI rifles. Still doesn't address their primary reason for wanting to adopt a piston system.
7n6
https://i.imgur.com/hhl68BJ.gif
"It's got a piston. It's what operators crave."
pointblank4445
02-04-18, 17:54
Well played, Firefly. Well played.
PS. There's whispers on the darkside (HKPro) of there being a hammer forge awaiting assembly at the new HK GA facility.
Let's just say if the stars align just so that 1980s HK 2.0 may be around the corner sooner than one might think
Dist. Expert 26
02-04-18, 18:39
Yet Raiders, Rangers, Recon, Green Berets etc are rocking Mk. 18s. If they wanted piston guns they could have them, they just don't.
The USMC used the M27 program to get better rifles for everyone in the infantry without outright replacing the M4. It's not some conspiracy for piston guns.
RetroRevolver77
02-04-18, 20:45
This is why the military wants to adopt a piston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y
This is why the military wants to adopt a piston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y
What is this showing? That it can run under water? Is this a standard 416, or one that has been modded? You do know that you can make a DI AR do that with some mods, generally to the RE so that you can push the water out. The rounds actually making it to target are amusing, though performance I am betting lacks.
There is also the point to be made that where in any combat situations is your average warfighter going to need to try to shoot someone from under water? Because I am not seeing it.
Seriously brother, I love me some H&K too. I am eyeing a couple of their pistols for CC, unless I end up with a new job that will have me required to carry their issue shit, but this fascination with a piston is just getting old. I hate to say it but rifles don't win wars. Neither do pistols. We get wrapped around the axle on this shit, most likely because we can own some of it, but in the end, being proficient makes a hells of a more of a difference than the actual platform.
RetroRevolver77
02-04-18, 21:39
What is this showing? That it can run under water? Is this a standard 416, or one that has been modded? You do know that you can make a DI AR do that with some mods, generally to the RE so that you can push the water out. The rounds actually making it to target are amusing, though performance I am betting lacks.
There is also the point to be made that where in any combat situations is your average warfighter going to need to try to shoot someone from under water? Because I am not seeing it.
Seriously brother, I love me some H&K too. I am eyeing a couple of their pistols for CC, unless I end up with a new job that will have me required to carry their issue shit, but this fascination with a piston is just getting old. I hate to say it but rifles don't win wars. Neither do pistols. We get wrapped around the axle on this shit, most likely because we can own some of it, but in the end, being proficient makes a hells of a more of a difference than the actual platform.
This is showing the HK 416 passing a very basic over the beach test and is one of many reasons why they are looking to adopt it.
7n6
SeriousStudent
02-04-18, 21:40
7n6 - this isn't some General Discussion thread. Adopt a more polite tone or stop posting.
7n6 - this isn't some General Discussion thread. Adopt a more polite tone or stop posting.
Point of order sir, and with all do respect. Isn't this in General Discussion?
MountainRaven
02-04-18, 23:54
This is showing the HK 416 passing a very basic over the beach test and is one of many reasons why they are looking to adopt it.
A video of a rifle undergoing one OTB test. A test which might demonstrate a certain amount of the weapon's suitability for combat divers but really doesn't speak to it being more suitable than any other weapon.
RetroRevolver77
02-05-18, 01:43
A video of a rifle undergoing one OTB test. A test which might demonstrate a certain amount of the weapon's suitability for combat divers but really doesn't speak to it being more suitable than any other weapon.
I am the only American to have ever designed a Kalashnikov variant. I only look to the future.
7n6
I am the only American to have ever designed a Kalashnikov variant. I only look to the future.
7n6
This is very interesting. May we ask what rifle, for whom, and when?
It may cast your adherence to some of what you are saying in a different light.
https://i.imgur.com/hhl68BJ.gif
"It's got a piston. It's what operators crave."
From Snuffy’s perspective, what’s the point? Inquiring minds want to know...
RetroRevolver77
02-05-18, 13:12
This is very interesting. May we ask what rifle, for whom, and when?
It may cast your adherence to some of what you are saying in a different light.
It didn't set out to be intentional but I ended up designing a proto-type AK rifle with Ted Marshall in the late 90's. Previewed the rifle to Arsenal and they decided to produce a few series based on it once the ban sunset. My belief is a piston offers a self leveling gas system to run a variety of ammo and overall is reliable in adverse conditions. Which is why I'm interested in the advances of modernized piston type AR's.
7n6
What I'm trying to point out is that no one is making a new DI based weapon that isn't some type of an AR15 variant.
That's because everyone is making an AR15 variant. For all the good reasons they should.
The 416 will evolve back to DI. It's inevitable... then they can take the crash helmet off the trigger group, and can stop development on the 9 position adjustable gas block.
Mr. Goodtimes
02-07-18, 13:24
The 416 will evolve back to DI. It's inevitable...
Lol wut?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WickedWillis
02-07-18, 13:25
That's because everyone is making an AR15 variant. For all the good reasons they should.
The 416 will evolve back to DI. It's inevitable... then they can take the crash helmet off the trigger group, and can stop development on the 9 position adjustable gas block.
Help me understand this statement, please.
My belief is a piston offers a self leveling gas system...
This is demonstrably untrue with a 10" 416 and silencer. Most outrageous cyclic rate increase I've ever seen.
RetroRevolver77
02-07-18, 15:30
This is demonstrably untrue with a 10" 416 and silencer. Most outrageous cyclic rate increase I've ever seen.
The OSS suppressors were designed specifically to address that issue- alleviate the back pressure of conventional suppressors. Self leveling is in reference to bleeding the gas off at the block and utilizing inertia for the remainder cycling of the action.
The 10" 416 doesn't vent. And it has a greater cyclic rate increase than a mk18.
I just dislike blanket statements on "piston" designs.
For example AK=piston=reliable ignores other features that might make it less sensitive to different ammo. The longer stroke past the magazine and longer cam path are examples, that are also not found on the 416.
This is demonstrably untrue with a 10" 416 and silencer. Most outrageous cyclic rate increase I've ever seen.
This is true with the non-vented shorties but from what I can gather with the information I’ve perused from serious end users is it’s a non issue? Like high cyclic rate aside the guns are dead nuts reliable and suffer from minimal parts breakage? So I guess it’s really a trade off I suppose.
Maybe it’s better with the vented ones.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 10" 416 doesn't vent. And it has a greater cyclic rate increase than a mk18.
I just dislike blanket statements on "piston" designs.
For example AK=piston=reliable ignores other features that might make it less sensitive to different ammo. The longer stroke past the magazine and longer cam path are examples, that are also not found on the 416.
Don't the newer ones have a vented gas block? It's supposedly not interchangeable with the 14.5" ones as the bleed-off port is different.
It would have been an early one if there are changes. I was not told if it was a problem of parts, reliability, or control.
My point was more to move past the piston blanket statements.
If all pistons were so "self regulating" we wouldn't need SCAR port inserts, AUG gas plugs, FAL adjustable gas vents........
RetroRevolver77
02-08-18, 12:00
It would have been an early one if there are changes. I was not told if it was a problem of parts, reliability, or control.
My point was more to move past the piston blanket statements.
If all pistons were so "self regulating" we wouldn't need SCAR port inserts, AUG gas plugs, FAL adjustable gas vents........
In context, I was discussing specifically the HK 416 being a self leveling piston system. I understand other piston systems offer the ability to adjust gas pressure back into the system. Having owned several FAL's, AUG's, AK's, even SCAR's at one point- being able to adjust pressure at the block is preferable if wanting to run suppressed. Point is though, we live in awesome era of firearms design- especially the newer stuff coming out these days.
M
MARSOC doesn't want the M27, likes the M4 better:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/23/marine-raiders-dont-want-any-m27s/
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-26-18, 12:07
Does this mean that AR15s are no longer weapons of war?
Dist. Expert 26
02-26-18, 12:41
MARSOC doesn't want the M27, likes the M4 better:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/23/marine-raiders-dont-want-any-m27s/
I don't blame them. Their rifles are significantly lighter than the M27, aren't clapped out like most line company's stock and get the job done.
Only problem I can think of is that it's heavy for a general purpose rifle. Maybe the Marines will eventually put a lighter barrel in the general issue guns and call them M27A1s.
It weighs 7.9lbs. I think the M16 weighs about the same. Not that heavy really (only about a lb more than the M4).
I like 'em. As a derivative of the 416, its a step up.
Dist. Expert 26
02-26-18, 14:14
It weighs 7.9lbs. I think the M16 weighs about the same. Not that heavy really (only about a lb more than the M4).
I like 'em. As a derivative of the 416, its a step up.
Pounds equal pain.
Swapping out the rail for a Geissele would be a good step before replacing barrels.
BoringGuy45
02-26-18, 15:15
MARSOC doesn't want the M27, likes the M4 better:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/23/marine-raiders-dont-want-any-m27s/
Decent reasoning: Too heavy, too long a barrel. Of course, if the Marines go all in on the 416, I suppose that doesn't preclude the possibility that the Raiders get the 416A5 or whatever variant JSOC has been using for the past decade.
I have to wonder though...the Marines seemingly used the IAR trials as a backdoor way to get the M27 as their standard service rifle, maybe adopting the M27 is a backdoor way of getting a standard 416 (that is, the one used by JSOC, Norway, France, etc) as the service rifle. They'll conclude that the M27 is a good all-around rifle, filling the role of automatic gunner, marksman, and rifleman, but that the extra weight and length affects the Marines' ability to be the flexible, mobile fighting force they are supposed to be. Because we don't want supply line problems, it would be best to go to a shorter, lighter 416 upper receiver for the standard riflemen, that way they would have parts commonality with the M27 riflemen. Flash forward, the marines are happy with their shorter, lighter 416s, and the Marine leadership then pulls strings and makes that the new USMC rifle, keeping the M27 as a marksman/automatic rifle.
Lots of games to play. I'll be interested to see how everything shakes out.
Pounds equal pain.
Swapping out the rail for a Geissele would be a good step before replacing barrels.
I know the saying.
So if it can be lightened, then great. My hd/3gun rifle is about 9lbs loaded, but I'm sure its different when a soldier has to carry it every day.
Dist. Expert 26
02-26-18, 15:59
I know the saying.
So if it can be lightened, then great. My hd/3gun rifle is about 9lbs loaded, but I'm sure its different when a soldier has to carry it every day.
It absolutely is. My M16 was as stripped down as I could get away with. Carrying a SAW or M203 was pretty miserable, especially on week long patrolling exercises.
Apples and oranges. At least it didn't degenerate into a "what kind of lube are you using?" thread.
Well, what lube are you using? Enquiring minds want to know.
BoringGuy45
04-11-18, 03:42
Somewhat related: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/18/new-photos-new-hk416a7/
I'm wondering a few things about this:
1st, is this going to be the new, and soon to be only, version of the 416 (outside the M27)? Or is this just the version for the German military?
Where does the extra weight come from? I'll say, in an era when we're trying to shave weight on rifles, adding almost 2.5 lbs to the rifle seems odd. Are they using the same barrel as the M27?
What do they mean by easier access to the gas system? One of the things about the 416 that makes me scratch my head is the fact that it can't be completely field stripped without tools. The fact that you need a wrench, screwdriver, or at the very least the rim of a bullet case to complete unscrew and remove the handguard to clean the piston seems like a step back when compared to the tool-less designs of the M4, AK, FAL, and most other modern weapons. If they improved that, it sounds like a great step forward.
Anyone have any further insight on the 416A7?
Somewhat related: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/18/new-photos-new-hk416a7/
I'm wondering a few things about this:
1st, is this going to be the new, and soon to be only, version of the 416 (outside the M27)? Or is this just the version for the German military?
Where does the extra weight come from? I'll say, in an era when we're trying to shave weight on rifles, adding almost 2.5 lbs to the rifle seems odd. Are they using the same barrel as the M27?
What do they mean by easier access to the gas system? One of the things about the 416 that makes me scratch my head is the fact that it can't be completely field stripped without tools. The fact that you need a wrench, screwdriver, or at the very least the rim of a bullet case to complete unscrew and remove the handguard to clean the piston seems like a step back when compared to the tool-less designs of the M4, AK, FAL, and most other modern weapons. If they improved that, it sounds like a great step forward.
Anyone have any further insight on the 416A7?
Where are you getting the 2.5 lbs more?
The A7 looks to weight 3.70 kg / 7.7 lbs with a 14.5" barrel vs the A5 14.5"variants 3.50 kg / 8.15 lbs
For comparison
- Colt M5 Enhanced Carbine with a 14" barrel equipped with the Geissele SMR rail weighs 3.60 kg / 8.02 lbs
- SIG MVC Virtus, if available with a 14.5" barrel would most like be c. 3.60 kg / 7.95 lbs ( 16" weighs 3.70 kg / 7.7 lbs )
- LMT piston carbines, if available with a 14.5" barrel would most likely c. 3.25 - 3.30 kg / c. 7.15 lbs ( 16" weighs 3.36 - 3.40 kg / 7.40 - 7.50 lbs )
The gas nozzle can be removed out the front on both the A5 and A7, by pushing the leaf spring down by hand and turning & pulling it out. The piston and piston rod remove like on the earlier variants.
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