View Full Version : In Theater Hearing Protection
This question is for those who have done this. When on patrol, how do you balance the need to move, shoot, and communicate with the need to not come home deaf? What hearing protection devices are used and how? And how does that affect your ability to use radios, etc.? I haven't heard a good description of how this is being done now.
Most of the pics I see have the guys wearing Sordin-based communications headsets that are also awesome active hearing protection.
I am not in the service and don't have personal experience except from seeing lots of pictures of in theatre guys as well as having sold Sordin in the past before MSA bought them and knowing some of their history and product line details.
NinjaMedic
10-16-08, 15:43
http://www.militaryaudiology.org/newsletter05/ceps.html
http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/documents/FACT/51-005-0504.pdf
http://www.cep-usa.com/CEPS%20Product%20Description.pdf
You will probably see more solutions such as this in the future, basically an in ear version of the MSA Sordin type noise attenuating head sets that feature the talk-through circuitry. This system was originally designed as a solution for the 160th SOAR to facilitate face to face communication while wearing their helmets and be compatible with the CEPs that all of the military aviators are wearing now.
The MSA Sordin supreme pro tactical headsets work great, the attenuation is instant. I don't think the SAE (situational awareness enhancement) works all that great. I tend to leave the volume down or there's a lot of static.
They also fit under the standard ACH 2000/MICH helmet, although, I had to mod my pads to make it comfortable.
All in all, good protection, battery life is amazing when using as just stand-alone protection/enhancement.
I have the Peltor Comtac I system--they don't fit very well under the ACH2000helmet but not an issue with the ACH2001 style. The Headband is too thick IMO and is always noticeable.
Additionally, you may have to look at other helmet strap options. The standard issue gentex did not fit the earcups for me very well. I switched to the ops-core head-loc retention and that worked out much better. Could just be the way I wear my helmets.
So would you consider electronic active protection to be common in theater for dismounted troops?
I don't think the SAE (situational awareness enhancement) works all that great.
Is SAE just sound amplification?
I've noticed on ordinary electronic range muffs that while they do amplify the sound, they do it in a way that doesn't really improve SA at all. If anything, it is weird and disorienting because directionality is messed up.
RogerinTPA
10-16-08, 17:26
The problem I've found with electronic ear protection is that most will completely stop the harmful noise, but shut out all vocal communication until the firing stops. Which is great for one way ranges but not for two way ranges. There are some which others have mentioned that are used regularly in a combat zone (Peltor's) but I have no experience with that type. You may want to consider the Peltor green/yellow ear plugs that aren't electronic or battery dependent. Green side in for ranges, yellow side in for combat. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/75023-1.html I use them almost exclusively at indoor ranges because the electronic ones get too hot for me. Some folks either love em or hate em, but they work for me, without the sudden shut down of speech and need no batteries.
Situational awareness involves visual cues as well as audio cues. If the audio is shut down via electronic hearing protection, you will have to train yourself to rely on visual cues, scanning frequently for bad guys and hand & arm signals from your team to keep you safe and situationally aware of whats going on around you. I strongly suspect that the folks that wear electronic hearing protection in combat had to make to same tweak to there SA.
Here's a link to some in-ear electronic protection.
http://www.nacre.no/
Stay safe
The problem I've found with electronic ear protection is that most will completely stop the harmful noise, but shut out all vocal communication until the firing stops. Which is great for one way ranges but not for two way ranges. There are some which others have mentioned that are used regularly in a combat zone (Peltor's) but I have no experience with that type. You may want to consider the Peltor green/yellow ear plugs that aren't electronic or battery dependent. Green side in for ranges, yellow side in for combat. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/75023-1.html I use them almost exclusively at indoor ranges because the electronic ones get too hot for me. Some folks either love em or hate em, but they work for me, without the sudden shut down of speech and need no batteries.
Situational awareness involves visual cues as well as audio cues. If the audio is shut down via electronic hearing protection, you will have to train yourself to rely on visual cues, scanning frequently for bad guys and hand & arm signals from your team to keep you safe and situationally aware of whats going on around you. I strongly suspect that the folks that wear electronic hearing protection in combat had to make to same teak to there SA.
Here's a link to some in-ear electronic protection.
http://www.nacre.no/
Stay safe
Definitely right on about the retraining.
I also have the green/yellow plugs and they work much better than I thought they would for only $15. They just started stocking them at the PX instead of the old school green ear plugs.
I would not say that hearing protection like this is all that common. The only people I've seen with them outside of us contractors are operators, various Gov agency/GS, and vehicle crew.
I believe hearing loss is rated as the #1 combat injury these days--I think that was in Stars and Stripes this past week.
I believe hearing loss is rated as the #1 combat injury these days--I think that was in Stars and Stripes this past week.
So there are a lot of soldiers using nothing at all sometimes?
I would say in my experience that most of the time I've spent with soldiers outside the wire--they had no hearing protection. Its an item that most units do not issue unless your Cav/Armor and even then--its not the SAE style protection and only commo/noise isolation.
Operators usually have some type of SAE and sometimes a silenced weapon. Regular light infantry usually do not have either as issue from what I've seen.
I do want to add that the commo gear in MRAPs functions pretty well in the noise isolation role. However, we still have alot of HMMWV's out there and soldiers rolling outside the wire every day without this stuff.
This question is for those who have done this. When on patrol, how do you balance the need to move, shoot, and communicate with the need to not come home deaf? What hearing protection devices are used and how? And how does that affect your ability to use radios, etc.? I haven't heard a good description of how this is being done now.
Personally I am now partially deaf from my total use of no protection while I was over there. Were I to do it again I would definitely invest in some electronic muffs.
I'll tell you what, this issue has me charged up. It is 2008 for crying out loud, not 1944. I am appalled this is going on like this. We have the ability to solve this problem. Soldiers shouldn't be having to make the choice between hearing now and hearing later. All that's needed is a little leadership in the right places. I've built a fire under some people tonight over this. We'll see where it goes as I keep the pressure on.
I applaud your determination on this issue, but its going to be an uphill battle. With the Army's doctrine of "Fight like we train", soldiers will have to be issued and trained with hearing protection before they actually arrive in theater. That puts this type of an item out reach for most of the folks deployed already.
The other issue will be the cost of the SAE headsets (Sordin, Peltor etc..) With the cost of kit rising astronomically as it is--yet another item will most likely be looked down upon by the bean counters who already feel the average foot soldier is "over equipped".
The next issue will be to actually get guys to wear the stuff. As pointed out, they get hot, they don't sound all that great--but they are better than nothing.
Plus you now have another item to keep batteries for and hopefully will take the abuse of deployment.
I would say that issuing silencers might be a better option as there is nothing mechanical to go wrong. Most of the hearing damage is coming from the weapons that are closest to you--aka you and your buddies.
Crew served weapons are also extremely loud, especially when your sitting in an armored cupola. M2s and 240 bravos wake up the neighbors thats for sure--I remember coming up on M2s in action last year that were audible long before you could hear any other weapon involved.
I am thankful that I am more of a "fobbit" this year.
Gentlemen, you need to curb your hostilities. As of last year EVERY MARINE is issued quiet pro hearing protection which is on line with the likes of invisio. AND if you have a hearing problem prior it is YOUR FAULT. You are issued combat ear plugs and eye pro as part of your PPE. If you don't use them shame on you. If your unit did not provide them... shame on you for not finding out why.
As far as what I choose.... Invisio
Interesting. Is quiet pro / invisio pretty much the state of the art as is stands today?
Interesting. Is quiet pro / invisio pretty much the state of the art as is stands today?
Right now the Quiet Pro is the "Best Value" but the invisio is probably the best especially now that they are more rugged. They both offer the same features and protection but IMHO the invisio is more comfortable.
Gentlemen, you need to curb your hostilities. As of last year EVERY MARINE is issued quiet pro hearing protection which is on line with the likes of invisio. AND if you have a hearing problem prior it is YOUR FAULT. You are issued combat ear plugs and eye pro as part of your PPE. If you don't use them shame on you. If your unit did not provide them... shame on you for not finding out why.
As far as what I choose.... Invisio
No hostilities on my part, I wear my stuff.
I don't usually go on door kicker missions unless thats something that happens by accident as part of being engaged and I don't leave the vehicle.
I have not noticed the Marines that I've worked with wearing anything outside of commo gear as far hearing protection. I haven't been in MND-West for a year now so maybe they're more high-speed at this point. I will say the most f'd up convoy I've been was with the Marines--not that it was the Marine's fault. Got IED'd, had to wait for I don't know how many to be marked/called in/disarmed and took SAF 3 times going 12 miles. No casualties thank God. Every time there was SAF, there was a total dismount to engage and track down the assclowns.
That 12 miles took 12 hours....
BlueForce,
I purchased a set of Sordins recently, used em in a couple shooting classes. Yeah the cut out during shooting, yeah it sucks, but so does hearing loss. I lost so much hearing in Iraq (and this is after voluntarily wearing ear plugs just to hear myself think while riding in the back of Bradleys on hard ball roads-ear pro will only partially protect you, the vibration does just as much damage) that I got asked at every hearing test I went to if I needed a waiver to even join the Army. The last hearing test I had before my most recent deployment I was told if I lost much more, I'd be eligible for a hearing aid. I'm 29 years old. I'm usually pretty religious about eye pro and ear pro (when shootin's goin on or riding in aircraft), but I didn't have it in this trip and again paid the price when 107mm rocket detonated under my truck (no casualties). I didn't have the issued plugs in and I didn't own Sordins at the time. No one to blame but myself.
The Combat Arms Earplugs (the green/yellow ones) aren't back, but I don't think they let you hear as well as the Sordins (but then they don't require batteries either). My preference is for the Sordins (you can route radios into them so you can monitor the 'nets-either by getting ones specifically set up to plug into radios, or with a 3.5mm cord running from the jack on a Thales MBITR handmike to the jack on Sordin Supreme Pro-Xs (haven't tried this setup).
ryanm,
One reason gear costs are going up, the government is already buying a lot of the stuff (or buying stuff using the same raw materials or using the same factories which reduces the commercial output) and so it's not as available commercially, supply & demand.
Right now the Quiet Pro is the "Best Value" but the invisio is probably the best especially now that they are more rugged. They both offer the same features and protection but IMHO the invisio is more comfortable.
Do either of these provide any kind of directional sense? And do they allow pass-through of audio while shutting down for fire? And are they adequately compatible with your comms gear?
I'm usually pretty religious about eye pro and ear pro (when shootin's goin on or riding in aircraft), but I didn't have it in this trip and again paid the price when 107mm rocket detonated under my truck (no casualties). I didn't have the issued plugs in and I didn't own Sordins at the time.
So you actually took a shot on your hearing loss from an IED? I hadn't even thought about that, but the volume would be intense, I suspect. Glad to hear you got through that one.
My preference is for the Sordins (you can route radios into them so you can monitor the 'nets-either by getting ones specifically set up to plug into radios, or with a 3.5mm cord running from the jack on a Thales MBITR handmike to the jack on Sordin Supreme Pro-Xs (haven't tried this setup).
I am gathering the comms compatibility is critical?
So you actually took a shot on your hearing loss from an IED? I hadn't even thought about that, but the volume would be intense, I suspect. Glad to hear you got through that one.
I am gathering the comms compatibility is critical?
I'm pretty sure the blast jacked up my hearing even worse-just haven't been tested to prove it.
Comms compatibility is nice, especially if you're in a duty position that requires the use of the radio, not 100% critical, but definitely useful.
Do either of these provide any kind of directional sense? And do they allow pass-through of audio while shutting down for fire? And are they adequately compatible with your comms gear?
The quiet pro's are more "Omni Directional" in thier design. They do cut out when there is fire close enough to trip the circut but only briefly and not as much as your own ears would. Comm compatability is achieved through the use of an intermitance / ptt box that can handle up to two types of radios.
The quiet pro's are more "Omni Directional" in thier design. They do cut out when there is fire close enough to trip the circut but only briefly and not as much as your own ears would. Comm compatability is achieved through the use of an intermitance / ptt box that can handle up to two types of radios.
Are any of these that you have tried very directional at all? And if you could get directionality with an electronic device, would you consider that a big deal from a force protection point of view, or a not-so-big deal? When I say directional, I mean if a sound is coming from a certain direction, you can sense that direction pretty accurately like you can with your ears.
Iraq Ninja
10-17-08, 16:24
My favorite is the surefire ear plugs. Strange, but they seem to work better than my sordins, in allowing me to hear conversations and being able to pinpoint fire.
My favorite is the surefire ear plugs. Strange, but they seem to work better than my sordins, in allowing me to hear conversations and being able to pinpoint fire.
You talking about just the passive plastic ones? Better than active?
Comms compatibility is nice, especially if you're in a duty position that requires the use of the radio, not 100% critical, but definitely useful.
Is this something everybody eventually needs to do, or just a subset of the overall team?
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