View Full Version : Browning Gets Serious--Launches TL-30 Safe
As many of you already know, that which we call "gun safe" is really not a safe but a "residential storage container." That's according to the testing standards laid out by the UL for such things.
The RSC rating is pretty basic and indicates that the safe will withstand at least five minutes of attack by one man using hand tools. That does not sound like much but that's actual working time on the safe. Taking a break to switch tools or go to the bathroom stops the clock until tools are actually employed against the safe again.
The RSC rating has recently been augmented by UL and now includes three levels of testing. The RSC 1 is the legacy rating. RSC 2 lengthens the attack time to ten minutes and adds a few more tools while the RSC 3 adds more tools but stays in that 10 minute working time.
https://www.ul.com/inside-ul/residential-security-container-standard-revised-to-give-manufacturers-and-consumers-increased-options/
Well, in a surprising move it seems Browning has decided to skip right over the RSC ratings and go right into TL territory with a new TL30 rated safe. TL is a "real" safe rating and is probably what you'll find in most supermarket offices and places like that. TL means the door is resistant to common hand tools and grinders and can withstand half an hour of total working time on the door.
There aren't too many choices for TL stuff on the gun safe market. American Security has some models and I think Brown Safe also does some TL stuff. Otherwise the choice, for those wanting maximum security, has been used and repurposed office safes.
I find it interesting that Browning has entered this market. I wonder if Liberty, etc will take note.
Here's the Browning info on the website:
http://www.browning.com/products/gun-safes-and-pistol-vaults/pro-series/tl-30.html
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SeriousStudent
02-06-18, 22:19
Interesting. I am in the market for another safe. I had been looking at AmSec but will check these out.
Thanks for the heads up.
Very impressive but for $8900 it should be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCk-odaIxcs
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One thing to keep in mind is that a TL-30 rating in a gun safe sized box will weigh over 4,000 lbs.
One thing to keep in mind is that a TL-30 rating in a gun safe sized box will weigh over 4,000 lbs.
This new Browning weighs 3,100 pounds. :blink: You're not putting that in the upstairs closet...
Here are a few photos of the new safe. These were sent by a local Browning dealer. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/152c8f650a3874e02f538f3c51767b5d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/1fe0aa9557a9bed578d76e76d8e32d95.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/deddff6604cfbe8ef1a6ae46be7b3f92.jpg
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One thing I note that's odd. At one point they list the body as .25" yet it shows here it is 11 gauge. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/9e4056239f81b7a590c8cf43a6013b72.jpg
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SeriousStudent
02-07-18, 20:54
Very impressive but for $8900 it should be.
Sweet baby Harambe, that's about four grand over what I was going to spend on the AmSec.
Sweet baby Harambe, that's about four grand over what I was going to spend on the AmSec.My local dealer quoted me a price that's about $1500 below the listed retail. Still expensive but arguably tougher than anything built as an RSC.
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SeriousStudent
02-07-18, 22:03
My local dealer quoted me a price that's about $1500 below the listed retail. Still expensive but arguably tougher than anything built as an RSC.
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My nephew works for a Browning stocking dealer. I'll ask him what kind of deal I can get.
Fifteen hundred below retail is still above my budget. No doubt it's a nice safe.
My nephew works for a Browning stocking dealer.
Will you ask him where the safe is made? I wonder if it is an import.
Thanks sweet but pricey
I prefer the redneck safe
Rubbermaid tub with a couple of pit bulls = 24 hour security for less than $200
hotrodder636
02-08-18, 08:48
Where would one put a safe of that weight? The listed weight also doesn’t include the weight of what will be stored in it...
How the hell do you get 3,100lbs into your house? Sounds like you have to build your house around this.
Where would one put a safe of that weight? The listed weight also doesn’t include the weight of what will be stored in it...Most likely a garage.
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Close up of the door tag. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/c94581499e7506e92bf2f446ba31b6ca.jpg
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SeriousStudent
02-08-18, 18:56
Will you ask him where the safe is made? I wonder if it is an import.
I'll ask him. For those kind of sheckels, I hope it is made in 'Murica.
I'll ask him. For those kind of sheckels, I hope it is made in 'Murica.Nope. Appears to be made in China.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180209/0769523ca16c3dabddc998524928097c.jpg
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TexasGunNut
02-08-18, 20:39
I have been seriously impressed with my Sturdy Gun safe. Made in USA (Well almost...it’s made in CA) and a solid slab of metal.
I like that there's a tip hazard warning on it. There is no realistic way to tip that thing over without the right tools and/or strong people.
As to where to install it? A concrete slab is really your only option.
If you're serious about a TL15 or TL30 (or want to be a high roller and get a TL30x6), check your area for someone that sells used jewelry safes. You can find them for less than half the cost of buying new. You'll have to build/finish the interior, but that means you can customize it to your exact collection. And forget electronic locks. Stick with a good old mechanical lock.
I have been seriously impressed with my Sturdy Gun safe. Made in USA (Well almost...it’s made in CA) and a solid slab of metal.I like Sturdy, too. But they are not TL rated. They are not even certified as an RSC. Granted, the RSC standard appears to be fairly low and there safes would probably pass.
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I like that there's a tip hazard warning on it. There is no realistic way to tip that thing over without the right tools and/or strong people.
As to where to install it? A concrete slab is really your only option.
If you're serious about a TL15 or TL30 (or want to be a high roller and get a TL30x6), check your area for someone that sells used jewelry safes. You can find them for less than half the cost of buying new. You'll have to build/finish the interior, but that means you can customize it to your exact collection. And forget electronic locks. Stick with a good old mechanical lock.From what I'm seeing, most of these used TL safes offer little in the way of fire protection.
I guess it is all a trade-off. Do you want security and theft protection or insulation and fire resistance?
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Eurodriver
02-09-18, 06:35
Does anyone make a TL30 safe for guys who have just a few rifles and a life?
A 18x18” footprint is really all I need. I can’t imagine that weighing a ton (literally)
Does anyone make a TL30 safe for guys who have just a few rifles and a life?
A 18x18” footprint is really all I need. I can’t imagine that weighing a ton (literally)
I haven't seen anything that small. At least not anything that will work for rifles. I'm afraid the problem will be internal useful space. Anything with an 18X18 footprint will probably only be 12X12 or so inside.
http://www.amsecusa.com/high-security-safes/amvault-tl-30-composite-safes/
My favorite uncle was a watchmaker and jeweler. I remember a safe similar to the one in this link. I have no idea what brand or what it weighed but I remember it being much smaller inside than outside.
DarkTemplars
02-09-18, 08:03
How the hell do you get 3,100lbs into your house? Sounds like you have to build your house around this.The same way pyramids were built. A few rollers and it'll move fairly easy. The biggest thing is the physical dimensions to get through doorways and halls.
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From what I'm seeing, most of these used TL safes offer little in the way of fire protection.
I guess it is all a trade-off. Do you want security and theft protection or insulation and fire resistance?
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You definitely have to do your research. My amvault is rated for two hours at 1850 degrees, with internal temp below 350, for instance.
You can have your cake and eat it, too, but it will be expensive. :D
it will be expensive. :D
That's what I find appealing about this Bronwing although I'm not too keen on the idea of Chinese gun safes.
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TexasGunNut
02-09-18, 18:49
I like Sturdy, too. But they are not TL rated. They are not even certified as an RSC. Granted, the RSC standard appears to be fairly low and there safes would probably pass.
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True, but given the specs on their product they appear to exceed RSC standards. Since I didn’t need fire protection they fit the bill perfectly.
True, but given the specs on their product they appear to exceed RSC standards. Since I didn’t need fire protection they fit the bill perfectly.
Sturdy would need to make a safe that has 1" of steel in the body and 1.5" in the door to be TL-30 equivalent.
Eurodriver
02-10-18, 07:06
I haven't seen anything that small. At least not anything that will work for rifles. I'm afraid the problem will be internal useful space. Anything with an 18X18 footprint will probably only be 12X12 or so inside.
http://www.amsecusa.com/high-security-safes/amvault-tl-30-composite-safes/
This has always been an issue. I just want an interior dimension of like 18x18 that's maybe 60" tall. Even an interior 12x12" width is probably enough for me. I really don't have that many guns, and I don't want anymore. I just want my stuff to be fireproof and theft proof but its like the safe manufacturers don't market to guys like me. They sell the 1 ton behemoths to guys who have like 60 rifles.
medicman816
02-10-18, 07:16
Used jewelry safes are definitely the way to go. Prices are usually less than half of retail, and if you are buying them from a dealer they know how to move it. Just make sure you get a written contract specifying the final location in your house. Also, a concrete slab is the best place for them, and steps are mostly out of the question. Moving them isn't all that difficult with a pallet jack. Injuries will be serious if done wrong.
This has always been an issue. I just want an interior dimension of like 18x18 that's maybe 60" tall. Even an interior 12x12" width is probably enough for me. I really don't have that many guns, and I don't want anymore. I just want my stuff to be fireproof and theft proof but its like the safe manufacturers don't market to guys like me. They sell the 1 ton behemoths to guys who have like 60 rifles.
I'm afraid all the commercial safes with such a small footprint will be too short to hold a rifle unless maybe you pull the upper and lower apart. You might take a look at Sturdy then. The smallest gun safe they offer has a base of 24X19 and can be beefed up with a 1/4" steel body and 3/8" steel door. From there you can add stainless plates or additional carbon steel plates to reinforce the safe as you see fit.
Other small safes like this from competing companies will be 1/10-1/8" thickness and you won't be allowed to add any options to increase thickness.
This safe won't be TL rated but it is probably about as good as you can get for a small gun safe. The down side with Sturdy is the lack of any real info regarding their fire liner.
https://www.sturdysafe.com/products/model-2419
Used jewelry safes are definitely the way to go. Prices are usually less than half of retail, and if you are buying them from a dealer they know how to move it. Just make sure you get a written contract specifying the final location in your house. Also, a concrete slab is the best place for them, and steps are mostly out of the question. Moving them isn't all that difficult with a pallet jack. Injuries will be serious if done wrong.
Absolutely. You can score a similar sized tl 30x6 at about half the price. You just need to have some patience.
Here's a TL30X6 that would probably work for a few ARs and some pistols on a top shelf.
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/hvo/d/tl-30x6-vault-gun-safe-heavy/6452498862.html
But, as mentioned, such safes don't offer much in the way of storage vs the amount of space they take up. This is one of the things that interests me most about the new Browning.
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Here is a bit of info on the new RSC Level 2 attack standard. American Security is already making safes tested to meet this.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/d7e172c190073b8e8ad3820d95b64262.jpg
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Hilarious how they show the axe and hand tools
Besides the one drill
Why no metal cutting tools Like cutting torches or chop saws
Hilarious how they show the axe and hand tools
Besides the one drill
Why no metal cutting tools Like cutting torches or chop saws
Power tools and cutting torches don't come into play until the TL rating and above.
Here is some info on the various security levels although this info predates the new RSC II and III attack standards:
Safe Rating Details
Unless the safe has been tested & classified by Underwriters Laboratories (U.L.), the rating standards are completely up to the individual manufacturer and can vary greatly. Generally those non-U.L. tested ratings, in ascending levels of security, are:
"B" Rate
Most of the safe industry recognizes a B-rated safe as having a 3/16" to 1/4" thick steel body with a 1/2" thick steel door. The steel thicknesses are a combined total. For example, a safe may have an insulating material in between 2 pieces of 1/8" steel in the body and it can still be considered a B-rated safe. There are no formal written standards to which manufacturers must adhere.
"C" Rate
A majority of the industry recognizes a C-rated safe as having a 1/2" thick steel body with a 1" thick steel door. As with the "B" Rating, the steel thicknesses are a combined total after deducting any insulating materials. There are no formal written standards to which manufacturers must adhere.
"E" Rate
It is generally agreed that an "E" Rated safe has a 1" thick steel body with a 1-1/2" thick steel door. As with the "B" & "C" Ratings, the steel thicknesses are a combined total after deducting any insulating materials. Here too, there are no formal written standards to which manufacturers must adhere.
Underwriter’s Laboratories (U.L.) has been rating products and services from around the world, instilling confidence in purchasers, for over 100 years. To ensure that a safe continues to uphold the U.L. certification standards initially met during the U.L. testing process, a U.L. representative will periodically visit the manufacturing facilities to perform random inspections.
Highly trained U.L technicians work to forcibly enter the safe under ideal laboratory conditions, unlike those a real burglar would encounter. They use a wide variety of tools depending on the U.L. rating that is being sought. Successful "entry" is defined as opening the safe’s door or creating a 6 inch square hole. The "net working time" is the total time tools actually touch the safe while trying to gain entry. In reality it may take a burglar hours to accrue only 15 minutes of "net working time."
FOLLOWING ARE ALL OF THE U.L. SAFE RATINGS IN ASCENDING LEVELS OF SECURITY
As you would expect, as the level of protection increases, so does the weight and cost of the safe.
UL Residential Security Container (RSC) Rating
The RSC rating is based on a net working time of 5 minutes using common household tools such as a crow bar, a drill with a 1/2 HP motor, a hammer and chisel against the door. The safe body is not tested. The RSC rating also requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of "Group 2." RSC rated safes are good for residential applications that don't require protection from professionals with high-powered tools.
UL TL-15 Rating
The TL-15 rating is based on a net working time of 15 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against the door, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer. The safe body must made of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I., which should provide a minimum of 8 minutes of net working time protection. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TL-30 Rating
The TL-30 rating is based on a net working time of 30 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against the door, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer. The safe body must made of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I., which should provide a minimum of 8 minutes of net working time protection. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TRTL-30 Rating
The TRTL-30 rating is based on a net working time of 30 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against the door, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer, plus an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. The safe body must made of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I., which should provide a minimum of 8 minutes of net working time protection. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TL-30X6 Rating
The TL-30x6 rating is based on a net working time of 30 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against all six side of the safe, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TRTL-30X6 Rating
The TRTL-30x6 rating is based on a net working time of 30 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against all six side of the safe, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer, plus an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TRTL-60X6 Rating
The TRTL-60x6 rating is based on a net working time of 60 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against all six side of the safe, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer, plus an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
UL TXTL-60X6 Rating
The TXTL-60x6 rating is based on a net working time of 60 minutes using a wide variety of high powered tools that would be employed by professional burglars or locksmiths against all six side of the safe, such as high-speed drills with tungsten-carbide drill bits, grinders, abrasive wheels, power saws, hole saws, pry bars, a wedge and sledge hammer, plus an oxy-acetylene cutting torch, plus the use of 8 ounces of nitroglycerin explosives, generally focused on the lock. This rating requires a lock with a minimum U.L. rating of Group 2M.
Here's an example of a safe designed to withstand a half hour's worth of tool attack on all six sides. Still not rated for cutting torches...
https://highsecuritysafecompany.com/King-Richard-I-Model-R71GS.html
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
...do I really need more than a Liberty USA series residential security container?
Maybe.
There are plenty of examples out there on the 'net where inexpensive gun safes have been torn or chopped open. It seems a common trend is to ignore the door and attack the thin 12g bodies on these inexpensive safes.
The UL has gotten a bit of a black eye over the whole RSC rating since all those Chinese safes on YouTube getting pried open in mere minutes are all RSC listed. Hence the new RSC II and III ratings.
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medicman816
02-21-18, 21:30
So if all I care about are some young men kicking in my front door and grabbing my guns while no one is home, and ensuring no children in my home have access without supervision, do I really need more than a Liberty USA series residential security container? I don't care about fire protection, that's what insurance is for.
Andy
P.S. Recent break-in/theft activity in my area has prompted me to get off my butt and buy a safe.
I would consider myself fairly mechanically inclined and would estimate ~15 mins with an angle grinder and some abrasives to get through a RSC the first time, less if I've done it before. If you have an alarm system and PD response times to a "burglar alarm" in your area are less than that, then yes, it would be good enough. Keep in mind that in many areas that use a priority dispatching system these types of alarms are not going to be handled as a priority. Last time i looked there were RSC's that were the same thickness as a stack on cabinet, at several times the price.
Something else to keep in mind is that they can't take what they can't find, so an alarm, with a RSC that is somewhat hidden, will buy you some more time. Asking the PD about their response times is generally not a good idea. I am also gong to assume that you've checked on the insurance coverage for firearms lost to fire as most homeowners policies have stupidly low limits on firearms without an additional rider.
I don't know if I agree with this fellow's message. "My flimsy cabinet offers the same low security as a cheap gunsafe."
What he does do is help illustrate just how thin the body is on a 12g safe.
https://youtu.be/thw_obnU-jY
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Deleted due to low knowledge base.
At this moment, the only place I can put a safe is in my garage (high humidity, live in south east) or in my laundry room. House is built on a slab, safe would be anchored to concrete floor and have walls on rear and one side.
I am actually considering buying a Sturdy safe and spray painting it appliance white so it looks (at a glance) like the upright freezer in the laundry room now. Of course, Sturdy safes are not cheap.
AndyYou might want to check out the M2 and M3 line from Ft Knox. These aren't shown on the Ft Knox website but there is some info on cesafes.com and westcoastsafes.com
These are dealer exclusive models and are more "old school." Built with heavier steel and plate door. These should, on paper at least, offer better security than some other options. Price is generally good too considering the name, etc.
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