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C4IGrant
10-26-06, 18:01
Can a full custom shop (like Ed Brown, WC, NH, etc) produce in a month?? 10? 20? 50? 100? What do you guys think?

We know that production guns (Kimber, Springfield, etc) turn out tons of them as they do very little fitting/tuning to their 1911's. But, what about custom shop?



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Aubrey
10-26-06, 20:21
Ed Brown no longer does custom pistols as far as I know.

Robb Jensen
10-26-06, 20:30
Can a full custom shop (like Ed Brown, WC, NH, etc) produce in a month?? 10? 20? 50? 100? What do you guys think?

We know that production guns (Kimber, Springfield, etc) turn out tons of them as they do very little fitting/tuning to their 1911's. But, what about custom shop?



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I think we wait 2-3 months for Les Baer, 10 months for RRA pistols. Nighthawk seems to take 2-3 months. The very best 1911 I've seen come through the shop is a Yost-Bonitz.

trio
10-26-06, 21:40
i ordered my yobo in may, and the last time i spoke to them (about 2 weeks ago) they had not begun it yet....:(

rob_s
10-27-06, 08:15
None of the companies listed turn out custom guns. They will, for a fee, make adjustments to their standard high-end production guns, but they do not produce custom guns.

K.L. Davis
10-27-06, 08:38
When I was somewhat "serious" about building 1911s, I would have to call them fully custom, I had no catalouged designs... running about 2 a month was comfortable -- if I quit my day job, that would double.

C4IGrant
10-27-06, 10:04
Sorry folks, my brain was thinking about full custom weapons when I was typing.

The question is, how many 1911's do you think come out of say WC, Brown, NH, etc a month?


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C4IGrant
10-27-06, 10:20
When I was somewhat "serious" about building 1911s, I would have to call them fully custom, I had no catalouged designs... running about 2 a month was comfortable -- if I quit my day job, that would double.


That sounds about right to me. Where I am going with this is that, the big name boys produce HUGE numbers of 1911's a month (100 or more) and some of them only have about 4-6 smiths on duty. Here is the kicker, a 1911 with a lot of attention to detail spent on it (polishing, tuning, etc) takes somewhere around 50-80hrs hours to produce (if not more)!

So we (this includes me) are spending $2k-$3K on a production gun that has almost NO hand work. :( I am also willing to bet, that the guns don't have more than $800-$900 worth of parts in them.

I now find that I can have and produce a custom gun with much higher grade parts, better coating that is hand polished (read no machine), tuned, blended, etc for $2,500!

When I first got into 1911's I believed that the big name 1911 makers were semi-custom to full custom and that is why they were $2,500-$3,000 (or more). After a lot of research and questions asked, I now realize that I didn't get anything more than a production weapon with SOME upgraded parts, SOME fitting/blending and nothing more. :mad:

Edited to add: What I mean by full custom is that someone is going over the weapon by hand (no machine polishing, etc) not just adding some parts to their normal "production" gun.

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rob_s
10-27-06, 10:38
A gun can be production and still be hand made/fit. Rock River Arms standard models are a perfect example of this. I believe that Wilson, Nighthawk, and Ed Brown (to name a few) are the exact same way. As far as I know at least a couple of these shops also have one guy working on any given pistol from start to finish, rather than an assembly line with a guy that just sits there and installs sights all day.

It's not like any of these shops has a big machine that they feed steel into at one end and have a pistol spit out the other ready for grips.

rob_s
10-27-06, 10:39
i ordered my yobo in may, and the last time i spoke to them (about 2 weeks ago) they had not begun it yet....:(
Is it a 1* or something else? I think I waited 5 months for my 1* I just received but I'd have to check my old CC bill to be sure.

C4IGrant
10-27-06, 11:29
A gun can be production and still be hand made/fit. Rock River Arms standard models are a perfect example of this. I believe that Wilson, Nighthawk, and Ed Brown (to name a few) are the exact same way. As far as I know at least a couple of these shops also have one guy working on any given pistol from start to finish, rather than an assembly line with a guy that just sits there and installs sights all day.

It's not like any of these shops has a big machine that they feed steel into at one end and have a pistol spit out the other ready for grips.

Sure a production gun can "hand fit" the point I am trying to show you is that VERY little "hand anything" is spent on these $2,500-$3,000 1911's.



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Aubrey
10-27-06, 11:33
None of the companies listed turn out custom guns. They will, for a fee, make adjustments to their standard high-end production guns, but they do not produce custom guns.

rob_s,
I guess it depends upon one's definition of "custom." This from Nighthawk Custom's site:


We will be happy to build your gun using any high quality part you desire. You will be charged the price of the part and $7.50 shipping from Brownells, or you can buy the part and send it to us.

Now that doesn't mean that they will necessarily do whatever one might want, as every shop (one-'smith or otherwise) has different capabilities, but I was surprised to learn that Nighthawk will at least consider using other-than-Nighthawk parts, which I would not expect from EB or LB.

rob_s
10-27-06, 11:44
rob_s,
I guess it depends upon one's definition of "custom." This from Nighthawk Custom's site:


We will be happy to build your gun using any high quality part you desire. You will be charged the price of the part and $7.50 shipping from Brownells, or you can buy the part and send it to us.

Now that doesn't mean that they will necessarily do whatever one might want, as every shop (one-'smith or otherwise) has different capabilities, but I was surprised to learn that Nighthawk will at least consider using other-than-Nighthawk parts, which I would not expect from EB or LB.
I knew about that, but I was surprised by it when I found out too, especially the part about the user being able to buy the part himself and send it in. I wonder how far they'd take that. For instance, I wonder if they'd build a gun on their frame and slide but with all the rest of the parts supplied by the buyer.

My point in my original post though is that the companies listed make their living off of high-end production guns, not "custom" guns.

rob_s
10-27-06, 11:46
Sure a production gun can "hand fit" the point I am trying to show you is that VERY little "hand anything" is spent on these $2,500-$3,000 1911's.
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I wonder if you don't reach a point of diminishing returns though. I mean, is a $500 trigger job really twice as good as a $250 trigger job?

Just because something costs alot doesn't mean it's worth alot. It would probably cost quite a bit of money for me to have 10 yards of egyptian desert sand shipped to my jobsite, but it doesn't mean it's worth quite a bit of money when it gets here.

Aubrey
10-27-06, 11:58
Sure a production gun can "hand fit" the point I am trying to show you is that VERY little "hand anything" is spent on these $2,500-$3,000 1911's.



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Grant,

I'm not challenging your information, but I'd really like to know what evidence you have of this?

My perception is that many who consider a "custom" 1911 really want a customIZED 1911. They buy a "base gun" (with prancing pony or other roll mark they like) and then take/send it to a pistolsmith for reliability/ergonomic/tolerance upgrades. There is lots of hand labor in customizing many of these guns, either because they are deficient to begin with or because the modifications requested require more than simple removal and replacement of parts. This is compounded when the customer specifically requests that certain parts be used that require lots of time-consuming fitting, welding-up of the frame to prevent unsightly gaps...

In my opinion, CMC and Kimber did a long-overdue thing when they introduced parts and complete pistols that had "custom" features integral to the design/fabrication of the products. Why should a 'smith have to recontour the frame tangs to fit an ergonomic grip safety? Why hadn't Colt or SA or others offered this long before? Another thing they attempted to do with some success was to use appropriate tolerances for a frame/slide fit that would allow something other than a rattle trap without time-consuming hand fitting/lapping. They provided dovetailed high-profile sights, an extended thumb safety, forward slide serrations (luv 'em or hate 'em), etc... that shooters who were buying more traditional pistols had to spend big bucks and wait months to get customized on theirs.

Guys like Ed Brown and Les Baer and others have done enough of that time-consuming "customizing" (i.e., correcting design/tolerance deficiencies) on mass-produced pistols to recognize that if they just had a precision-made frame/slide combo and tight-tolerance parts to go in them, then the labor hours could be drastically reduced and focused on barrel fit, trigger, sight alignment, reliability checks, etc. that the big makers couldn't afford to do at their price points. These limited-production (not custom in many eyes) pistols (including WC, RRA, NH, et al) are more expensive because the parts that go into them are more expensive, the experienced labor is more expensive, and the customers are willing to pay.

Add up what it takes to buy a "base gun" (parts kit) and have it customIZED (don't forget to include expensive shipping costs) and one begins to see how competitively priced the limited-production guns are. Of course another way to look at it might be how much could a really good pistol be built for overseas where labor is cheap, but a 1911 built in some 2nd or 3rd-world nation somehow just seems wrong.

C4IGrant
10-27-06, 12:52
Grant,

I'm not challenging your information, but I'd really like to know what evidence you have of this?

My perception is that many who consider a "custom" 1911 really want a customIZED 1911. They buy a "base gun" (with prancing pony or other roll mark they like) and then take/send it to a pistolsmith for reliability/ergonomic/tolerance upgrades. There is lots of hand labor in customizing many of these guns, either because they are deficient to begin with or because the modifications requested require more than simple removal and replacement of parts. This is compounded when the customer specifically requests that certain parts be used that require lots of time-consuming fitting, welding-up of the frame to prevent unsightly gaps...

In my opinion, CMC and Kimber did a long-overdue thing when they introduced parts and complete pistols that had "custom" features integral to the design/fabrication of the products. Why should a 'smith have to recontour the frame tangs to fit an ergonomic grip safety? Why hadn't Colt or SA or others offered this long before? Another thing they attempted to do with some success was to use appropriate tolerances for a frame/slide fit that would allow something other than a rattle trap without time-consuming hand fitting/lapping. They provided dovetailed high-profile sights, an extended thumb safety, forward slide serrations (luv 'em or hate 'em), etc... that shooters who were buying more traditional pistols had to spend big bucks and wait months to get customized on theirs.

Guys like Ed Brown and Les Baer and others have done enough of that time-consuming "customizing" (i.e., correcting design/tolerance deficiencies) on mass-produced pistols to recognize that if they just had a precision-made frame/slide combo and tight-tolerance parts to go in them, then the labor hours could be drastically reduced and focused on barrel fit, trigger, sight alignment, reliability checks, etc. that the big makers couldn't afford to do at their price points. These limited-production (not custom in many eyes) pistols (including WC, RRA, NH, et al) are more expensive because the parts that go into them are more expensive, the experienced labor is more expensive, and the customers are willing to pay.

Add up what it takes to buy a "base gun" (parts kit) and have it customIZED (don't forget to include expensive shipping costs) and one begins to see how competitively priced the limited-production guns are. Of course another way to look at it might be how much could a really good pistol be built for overseas where labor is cheap, but a 1911 built in some 2nd or 3rd-world nation somehow just seems wrong.


You are more than welcome to challenge anything I have said. I am hear to share what I have learned in an open discussion.

As far as the proof I am using that high end companies are basically pushing guns out the door is the amount of volume they are producing. I cannot name the company, but a VERY well respected company does upwards of 100 guns a month with 4 "smiths" on duty! There is absolutely NO WAY that you can put out that many 1911's that have had extensive "hand polishing/fitting/tuning" in that amount of time. As KL pointed out, he might be able to put out a couple 1911's a month MAX! The 1911 Smith that I am using advised that if we build 2 guns a MONTH he will be busting his ass.

The question as to whether a gun needs to be fitted/re-worked, polished/blended, etc is 100% up to the shooter. Think of the 1911 as a piece of art. Some like Van Gogh and other like what their kids drew with a crayon. We all know what we like and to what level we are willing to pay for it.

From the intel I have received, most "High End Production" companies (WC, NH, etc) use somewhere around $800-$1000 worth of parts. Knowing that I have over $1,500 in my 1911 parts (with the finish) I have to question if they are really using the best parts they can. I also wonder how they can charge so much ($2,500-$3000) when they are not spending very much time in the fit/finish/tune area (read labor). How I am able to tell that they are not spending very much time is that I take the number of pistols pushed out the door by the number of "smiths" on duty.

For the record, I am not here to wreck anyones homes, but just to start a debate where people question some things. :)




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C4IGrant
10-27-06, 12:53
I wonder if you don't reach a point of diminishing returns though. I mean, is a $500 trigger job really twice as good as a $250 trigger job?

Just because something costs alot doesn't mean it's worth alot. It would probably cost quite a bit of money for me to have 10 yards of egyptian desert sand shipped to my jobsite, but it doesn't mean it's worth quite a bit of money when it gets here.

That is a very good question. I have NEVER owned a $3k or $4k 1911. Generally speaking, when you get into that dollar amount, it is not about parts, but more about fit/finish. If your not a fit/finish guy then I imagine that you wouldn't pay that much.


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C4IGrant
10-27-06, 12:59
rob_s,
I guess it depends upon one's definition of "custom." This from Nighthawk Custom's site:


We will be happy to build your gun using any high quality part you desire. You will be charged the price of the part and $7.50 shipping from Brownells, or you can buy the part and send it to us.

Now that doesn't mean that they will necessarily do whatever one might want, as every shop (one-'smith or otherwise) has different capabilities, but I was surprised to learn that Nighthawk will at least consider using other-than-Nighthawk parts, which I would not expect from EB or LB.


I think you kind of found out what I found out (that NH doesn't really make any of their own parts). For instance, they use hammers by STI. :D

So if I am using high grade parts and spending double to triple the time on body work, blending and tuning for the same price. Are my 1911's a better value (which is what I am after)?? :D

I also don't mean to use NH as the example in the above equation, but since you mentioned them I will use them.


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trio
10-27-06, 14:57
its just a 1*....when I call they tell me Im close...ive been close for a month and a half now....i know its worth the wait...doesnt make the waiting any easier though....

Nitrox
10-28-06, 17:45
When I was somewhat "serious" about building 1911s, I would have to call them fully custom, I had no catalouged designs... running about 2 a month was comfortable -- if I quit my day job, that would double.

Justoutofreachium is very hard to machine. :D

madryan
10-29-06, 00:56
IMO, if you're willing to pay for the extra tight tolerances on your parts then you can reasonably expect to get what ammounts to a hand fit in a production frame and slide. It's easy to machine metal to the kind of tolerance that takes. I'm talking +.002, -.000 which anyone with a decent CNC can hit all day if they know what they're doing. You just pay more for your parts. If "Custom 1911 company A" is producing an incredible amount of "Custom" guns a month with little manpower it means that whoever is machining their stuff is evidently doing a pretty good job.

This is where Grant is right. People pay for a gun that some artisan lovingly built by hand. That's not to say that you can't use machines to do some of the work, but it's a human being with reams of knowledge actually "Doing" it, whether it's with a needle file or a 5-axis horizontal mill. IMO, machining your rails to size beats peening them down to make them tight any day.

I have a Kimber that I'd put up against anything any of the "Wonder Smiths" produce for real accuracy and function/reliability. That doesn't mean that just because it shoots as well as a NH people would pay $2500 for it. Course, the only thing "Kimber" is the frame and slide...

Boris
10-29-06, 19:52
Course, the only thing "Kimber" is the frame and slide...

FWIW a S&W LE Rep told me that S&W makes the slides for Kimber . . . .

madryan
10-29-06, 22:15
I wouldn't be suprised. I know that a while back they built a really nice production facility and they make all sorts of stuff for other companies.

rob_s
10-30-06, 04:15
FWIW a S&W LE Rep told me that S&W makes the slides for Kimber . . . .
http://www.kimberamerica.com/knowledgebase/index.php?ToDo=view&questId=13&catId=3

It's funny to me that this is still out there. I got in an argument with a gunshop owner about this that swore up and down she knew more than me because she had "insider information".

Robb Jensen
10-30-06, 06:10
I thought is was a company called Jericho that made the slides and frames that both Kimber and Wilson Combat use. Maybe just frames I can't remember.

SethB
10-30-06, 10:59
The big problem with a Kimber is that they will always be ugly.

Other than that, you can make them cool.

Aubrey
10-30-06, 11:24
It is my understanding that Kimber is no longer dependent upon forging houses because they are machining from billet.

macman37
11-01-06, 20:03
So this is the second high-end 1911 tease you've provided us Grant... When are you going to make a formal announcement???

C4IGrant
11-02-06, 08:39
So this is the second high-end 1911 tease you've provided us Grant... When are you going to make a formal announcement???

I am making two high end 1911's for sure (project is actually underway). We will see how those go and then tip toe into the 1911 market. :D




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