View Full Version : Colt going-ons...Co is changing
30 cal slut
02-11-18, 09:19
The Hartford Horsey is undergoing quite a bit of change now.
It’s been steadily slimming down the headcount, with the last round of layoffs last week totaling 75 people. So I hear.
Also, importantly, I am hearing they are moving away from vertical integration (manufacturing their own parts) and moving towards subcontracting. I don’t know what that means for QC and hardcore Colt customers.
I hope Colt can steady the ship in a market characterized by slackening demand (no panic buying) and maybe have enough cash to diversify its product line (with a new non-1911 pistol).
We live in interesting times, especially now that Remington is shopping around for DIP financing ahead of a Ch11 re-org.
See....Colt was coming back from that slump.
I buy Colt because I know Colt makes their own parts. If they do this, they are actually validating what the gun shop A holes say "aw they dont make their own parts"
Just stick to 1911s and ARs. Not hard.
The Colt Expanse and that outsourced abortion should have learned them.
I dont want a Colt Glock clone. Or another Freedom Group style lack of quality.
I mean I have all the AR stuff I need but it seems like I wont be able to name drop the 6920 so easily.
Oh well, There's always LMT, BCM, and KAC
sidewaysil80
02-11-18, 09:57
Any sources? This is all heresay and opinion without them.
They could always bring back the Python and not charge $4k for it. I would buy...
Diamondback
02-11-18, 13:47
See....Colt was coming back from that slump.
I buy Colt because I know Colt makes their own parts. If they do this, they are actually validating what the gun shop A holes say "aw they dont make their own parts"
Just stick to 1911s and ARs. Not hard.
Well, 1911s, ARs and SAAs, with maybe an occasional "Legacy" run of other classics--stick to doing the things that built their brand and doing 'em well. And by classics, I mean faithful repro of original designs, not that back-birth outsourced abortion they called the "Model 1903" that wasn't even compatible with real M1903 parts, maybe one or two "Legacy Line" models a year with regular rotation.
The other thing that doesn't help is how Colt's been deliberately debt-loaded by its various owners over the years as a deterrent to hostile takeover... don't remember if it was Daniel Watters or one of the others, but one of the oldtimers over at GunHub who's been in the game longer than many of us here have been alive dished some interesting dirt a while back.
SomeOtherGuy
02-11-18, 13:59
IMHO they should license the full TDP for all their products to selected quality makers (let's say, BCM), allow/require those makers to have a "Colt (TDP) Inside" sticker/laser mark on their rifles, and just walk away to enjoy the royalties in the company's effective twilight years.
Most of all I'd like see the Colt 901 design continue at a company with a bright future and the ability to keep operating through up and down swings. LMT would be a natural but the MWS is too close in concept. So BCM would seem a logical fit, especially given that they don't currently have a .308.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-18, 15:09
Trumps fault.
Democrats are only good for one thing.
Colt has been going under since I was a kid, and that’s a long time. I remember when Winchester packed it in, and I was into those as much as my budget (minuscule) at the time would allow. The world didn’t end.
I’d sort of like to know what earth-shattering kaboom would result if Colt’s went under now?
John Boyd (and Charles Darwin) had some things to say about that.
Well, again, if true somebody will step in and make quality parts. A few already do. I have all the Colt stuff I need so....
Life goes on
There's nothing wrong with subcontracting provided your vendors are properly vetted and surveilled. Almost no one makes 100% of components in house and most companies don't mix their own elastomers or own their own foundries...
There's nothing wrong with subcontracting provided your vendors are properly vetted and surveilled. Almost no one makes 100% of components in house and most companies don't mix their own elastomers or own their own foundries...
I was told about Colt outsourcing their lowers years ago. I don't see any shock in them doing it with other parts, especially if they maintain solid QC and continue to make barrels and a few of the other pieces.
IMHO they should license the full TDP for all their products to selected quality makers (let's say, BCM), allow/require those makers to have a "Colt (TDP) Inside" sticker/laser mark on their rifles, and just walk away to enjoy the royalties in the company's effective twilight years.
Not to bitch at you. But, honestly, I don't think they'd find many buyers. There is a lot of TDP prints out there should one look around and there are plenty of good companies, BCM for example who have figured out the secret sauce of the TDP and are doing as good or better than Colt. BCM, Sionics, SOLGWS, LMT, DD, KAC, and others have a following for quality for a reason after all. if I was Paul at BCM and Colt came around offering to "sell" me their TDP I'd probably tell them to go **** themselves and counter offer to sell them my TDP since my guns are held to a higher tolerance. The companies who could benefits wouldn't give a **** anyway since Frank Fudd don't know the ****ing difference anyway.
That said. I would be very interested in seeing more done with the 901. That rifle interests me in many ways and I think could have a lot of promise.
Colt has been going under since I was a kid, and that’s a long time. I remember when Winchester packed it in, and I was into those as much as my budget (minuscule) at the time would allow. The world didn’t end.
I’d sort of like to know what earth-shattering kaboom would result if Colt’s went under now?
John Boyd (and Charles Darwin) had some things to say about that.
Nothing major, just end of another era. Kind of like when SIG changed. It was nice to be able to buy Colt or SIG by name and have a known quantity as far as reliability. Makes shopping a little harder is all.
Used to be "Get a 6920 and done." Maybe not anymore.
Per BCM, I wish I had gotten their SAM-R upper when zi had a chance.
I have a spare Mk. 12 rail but I will keep that for a different project/rainy day.
Nothing major, just end of another era. Kind of like when SIG changed. It was nice to be able to buy Colt or SIG by name and have a known quantity as far as reliability. Makes shopping a little harder is all.
Used to be "Get a 6920 and done." Maybe not anymore.
This.
So much this.
You could get a 226, 220, 239, or a 228 and not think twice. Now...not so much. They inherited the former Kimber guy(or other way around?) and lost track with the mediocre 556, the multitude of gimmick guns, etc.
The MCX is interesting and I wish the Mk. 25 didnt have the anchor on it.
I also miss the SSG3000. They were selling them at Wal Mart next to the Remington fudd guns at close out prices, I had the money, could have easily gotten the proper Mcmillan stock, but foolishly passed on it.
I dont mind innovation, but it shouldnt come at the expense of consistency
You know, they could sub to Colt Canada, as far as I know they are still doing OK, import uppers and source lowers here.
Diamondback
02-11-18, 17:54
You know, they could sub to Colt Canada, as far as I know they are still doing OK, import uppers and source lowers here.
Then you get into 922r and ITAR territory, not to mention whatever export restrictions Canada has... I'd love if I could get a genuine C8 URG for the GF's loaner iron to use while she's visiting, but I somehow don't see the pencil-pushing-pencildicks on either side of the border allowing it to happen.
SomeOtherGuy
02-11-18, 20:10
Not to bitch at you. But, honestly, I don't think they'd find many buyers. There is a lot of TDP prints out there should one look around and there are plenty of good companies, BCM for example who have figured out the secret sauce of the TDP and are doing as good or better than Colt. BCM, Sionics, SOLGWS, LMT, DD, KAC, and others have a following for quality for a reason after all.
I don't have the thread link handy, but I have read claims on here that Colt's overall quality package goes beyond the military M4 TDP. I don't have any independent knowledge of this. It may be that someone like BCM already has as good of a data package; but I don't know. Selling their whole TDP & trade secrets to someone, or licensing it, would ensure that builder X had the data to build as well as Colt. And I think anyone who has bought a new Colt, and a new rifle from some other top maker (BCM, LMT, DD) has seen the difference in cosmetics and not selling banged-up stuff as new. So to me it would be a win-win to know you have the entire secret sauce, along with a maker that realizes civilians buying $1k-3k rifles want something that isn't battle-worn (or lazy packing department-worn) as new.
I digress.
Colt already gets most of their parts from outside sources (vendors).
30 cal slut
02-12-18, 07:43
The other thing that doesn't help is how Colt's been deliberately debt-loaded by its various owners over the years as a deterrent to hostile takeover...
Prior to the last Ch11 re-org, Colt took on debt. That money was paid out to Colt's investors. It's called a dividend re-cap.
The investors sucked the money out of it well before the last bankruptcy. They were no dummies.
30 cal slut
02-12-18, 07:43
Colt already gets most of their parts from outside sources (vendors).
It's accelerating, it seems.
Poor Colt. It's been suffering from a myriad of problems.
Before it filed its last Ch11 bankruptcy, Colt was owned by Sciens Capital Management and Blackstone, the latter being a NYC-based private equity/investment bank.
Blackstone is antigun. It has a clause in its social responsibility charter that discourages the sale of arms to civilians.
Secondly, there were two Colt entities. Colt Defense LLC and Colt's manufacturing. Colt Defense made M4 rifles for military and law enforcement customers.
Colt's Manufacturing made handguns (1911's) and owned the Colt trademark. The also sold rifles made by Colt Defense to the "law enforcement market" with a wink wink nod nod for commercial sales. To assuage Blackstone's conscience.
Officially, Colt marketed its M4 as the "law enforcement" LE6920. IIRC, Colt Defense had to pay a royalty to Colt's Manufacturing for each rifle sold to the winkwinknodnod "law enforcement" market.
The result was that Colt didn't sell as many rifles as it could have because 1) its owners discouarged it and 2) Colt's Manufacturing didn't have a heck of a lot of economic incentive to sell the rifles.
But the problems stem from more than bad timing.
-Colt Defense was too reliant on U.S. and foreign military contracts. We saw what happened when Colt Defense lost the big contract.
-Their costs are high (you saw that reflected in the price of rifles). The workforce is older (over 55 IIRC) and they are union (UAW IIRC). The union wages and benefits aren't too out of whack for the region ... but the real cost to Colt has been in restrictive nonsensical union work rules that hamper productivity for manufacturing new guns, as well as customer service for guns already sold. I've heard horror stories.
-They're probably getting raped on rent. An affiliate of one of their owners (Sciens) owns the factory building. In high-cost CT mind you.
-The product line is dated and not diversified. The 1911 design is over 100 years old. The M4's (AR15 back then) basic design was introduced in the 60's.
-Remember when the M4 TDP was accidentally released to the public by the government? Now there are over ~150 manufacturers of AR-style rifles and pistols, and ironically most customers aren't aware of or don't give a $hit about TDP compliance. AR's are a commodity.
-In today's gun market, handguns are the money makers, especially in the CCW category and polymer-framed, striker-fired (cheap and easy to produce). This is the big gap in the product line. Even if Colt comes out with one now (rumblings were that they were)... is it too late?
-1911's are costly to make. The market is also competitive, as you know. Revolvers like the python? Even more labor intensive. Ain't coming back. Not like the old ones.
-Colt is perennially pinched for cash. I think internal R&D has come to a standstill so they rely on outside sources for ideas.
I wish them nothing but the best but I am worried.
Interesting tidbit. Shortly before they filed their last Ch11 bankruptcy (June 15, 2015), they had an issue with M240's that were out of spec. The gov't didn't want to pay the money to buy the M240 TDP from FN, so the gov't tried to reverse engineer the design and tasked Colt with making machine guns from those specs.
It was a disaster and I heard they had to fire ~20 people over that snafu. I think that's what led them into the last Ch11 filing - they had to write down a $hit ton of inventory.
The company raised some money from 2 NYC hedge funds (who shall remain anonymous ... the firm I was working for at the time arranged the financing) ... that loan was collateralized by the Colt trademark.
Can you imagine that? Two NYC hedge funds briefly owning the freaking trademark.
ramairthree
02-12-18, 10:22
Sad,
But what else could happen.
They shit on the civilian market for much of their history.
Many of us like building our own stuff, getting more boutique stuff, etc.
I only own two Colts.
A 1980ish used SP1 I bought.
And a ban era HBAR.
I bought a BM CAR 15 the year before the ban.
I picked up a VTaC S&W.
The other dozen ARs were all built.
Companies heavily reliant on .gov funding often end up not being all that competitive.
An expensive, highly taxed location with a high cost of living and unfriendly politics does not help things.
Pile on that the Amercian consumer 99 times out of a hundred will buy cheap.
How many American firearms manufacturers would be in business if 350$ Chinese ARs were available?
They shit on the civilian market for much of their history.
Companies heavily reliant on .gov funding often end up not being all that competitive.
Snipped for brevity
Everybody seems to forget this. For much of my life, Colt has been more like HK than BCM. I don’t know much about business, but in my uneducated eyes, Colt has always looked like a bad business selling a pretty good rifle, and would go under if we adopted new weapons.
Would not want to go to that funeral.
Doc Safari
02-12-18, 13:41
My only worry would be if they decide one day that making an inferior product is more profitable. Will the day come when 6920's are a rarity and the Expanse is their main offering?
Snipped for brevity
Everybody seems to forget this. For much of my life, Colt has been more like HK than BCM. I don’t know much about business, but in my uneducated eyes, Colt has always looked like a bad business selling a pretty good rifle, and would go under if we adopted new weapons.
Yep, only unlike HK they can't cite US import laws as the source of the problem. We should remember Colt voluntarily began neutering their rifles (no bayo lugs, sporter models) even before the Clinton ban existed. One could even argue the contributed to the Clinton ban.
They thought they would ALWAYS be the big military supplier, but Springfield used to think that too.
Yep, only unlike HK they can't cite US import laws as the source of the problem. We should remember Colt voluntarily began neutering their rifles (no bayo lugs, sporter models) even before the Clinton ban existed. One could even argue the contributed to the Clinton ban.
They thought they would ALWAYS be the big military supplier, but Springfield used to think that too.
Those choices weren't exactly "voluntary."
Colt started their "FU civilian trash" attitude with the SP1, big hole screwed uppers, sear blocks, oversized FCG pins, none of that was required by anyone. During those years I would rather run a Colt upper on a Bushie lower than put up with the Colt lower BS.
Averageman
02-12-18, 17:19
What is the time frame for this to begin?
Colt already gets most of their parts from outside sources (vendors).
And that's fine so long as they are still built to a known standard.
Those choices weren't exactly "voluntary."
Well they did it at a time when other manufacturers were still offering bayo lugs and things like that.
Colt started their "FU civilian trash" attitude with the SP1, big hole screwed uppers, sear blocks, oversized FCG pins, none of that was required by anyone. During those years I would rather run a Colt upper on a Bushie lower than put up with the Colt lower BS.
Actually, "some" of that was required and goes back to the 1968 GCA and early SP1s. The whole "not readily convertible" to automatic fire requirement that everyone else had to adhere to, that is why HK91s are clip and pin rather than swing down trigger groups.
The sear block in the "sporters" and removal of bayo lugs prior to the 1994 Federal law were BS though.
Also even though it was completely legal to sell a Colt M16A2 to a private citizen, if you did it, you'd never get another sales sample again. This was pre 86 ban of course.
Actually, "some" of that was required and goes back to the 1968 GCA and early SP1s. The whole "not readily convertible" to automatic fire requirement that everyone else had to adhere to, that is why HK91s are clip and pin rather than swing down trigger groups.
The sear block in the "sporters" and removal of bayo lugs prior to the 1994 Federal law were BS though.
Also even though it was completely legal to sell a Colt M16A2 to a private citizen, if you did it, you'd never get another sales sample again. This was pre 86 ban of course.
Actually that is not exactly correct, here is a link to a 1964 SP1 with that stupid front take down screw, that was all on Colt. After carrying a M16A1 for years when I got my SP1 in 1976 I always hated not having the front pivot pin.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/975022921/1964-COLT-SP1-VERY-LOW-SERIAL-NUMBER.htm
Yep, only unlike HK they can't cite US import laws as the source of the problem. We should remember Colt voluntarily began neutering their rifles (no bayo lugs, sporter models) even before the Clinton ban existed. One could even argue the contributed to the Clinton ban.
They thought they would ALWAYS be the big military supplier, but Springfield used to think that too.
Yup I sold my Colt A2 In 1994 just before the ban.I was pissed how much they neutered it. I bought a Bushmaster in 96/97 on letterhead.
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I also owned a Bushmaster back then. Colt wasn’t exactly sticking to the TDP. RRA probably sells as good a rifle as Colt was selling us 15 years ago.
Diamondback
02-12-18, 19:57
Yep, only unlike HK they can't cite US import laws as the source of the problem. We should remember Colt voluntarily began neutering their rifles (no bayo lugs, sporter models) even before the Clinton ban existed. One could even argue the contributed to the Clinton ban.
They thought they would ALWAYS be the big military supplier, but Springfield used to think that too.
Possible tangent, but... Doesn't 922r apply to Canadian-made guns too? That's probably the cop-out for why "no Diemacos here"...
Possible tangent, but... Doesn't 922r apply to Canadian-made guns too? That's probably the cop-out for why "no Diemacos here"...
It should apply to all imports.
It’s nice Colt finally started selling normal civilian stuff. But they waited too long.
Also karma, the BS they pulled on civilians was totally out of control. A real F U.
Look at the flood of Turkish handguns (and shotguns & some rifles) coming into the US these days. I guess it goes to show that you can save a lot of money on R&D if you just take a proven design (Walther, H&K, etc.), add a tweak here and there, and sell it by the buttload.
One company (Sarsilmaz?) actually injection molds their own polymer frames and even makes their own plastic gun cases.
I also owned a Bushmaster back then. Colt wasn’t exactly sticking to the TDP. RRA probably sells as good a rifle as Colt was selling us 15 years ago.People who are not there then don't understand that. Half moon bolt carrier groups, mags were not that available, unless you bought up beat up Surplus.
H&K 91s were slightly less to buy, had similar mag availability, and were much more reliable then Colt ARs of that era. Which is how I ended up with a 91 in college. And a close friend had the first car 15 I ever saw. We shot both extensively. You could get cheap German 762 in the green sleeves, cheaper than I could buy 223 until ppmc came along
I bought my first mini 14 for a quarter the cost of a Colt at that time. And factory mags were almost identical in cost between the two.
Not saying the mini is as good as modern Colts. Just that back then, the Colts were not what we have now. There were valid reasons the mini became as popular as it did.
Ace Hardware stores locally sold ruger's including the mini 14, and had mags in the sales counter. Probably 20:1 more retail distribution relative to Colts.
Then again, the local mall Sporting Goods chain (oshman's) briefly carried both H&K and Colt. Most LGSs could not get the Colts, not that different than what it was 5 to 10 years ago.
ramairthree
02-13-18, 09:48
Well, for a while post ban Colt has enjoyed the love and appreciation, of say 1980s Jane Fonda earning bucks in movies and selling exercise tapes and stuff.
Those of us that were not big fan boys remembered them with their screw front takedown pin, weird BCG, and dick attitude to buyers just like Jane Vietnam Fonda.
People who are not there then don't understand that. Half moon bolt carrier groups, mags were not that available, unless you bought up beat up Surplus.
H&K 91s were slightly less to buy, had similar mag availability, and were much more reliable then Colt ARs of that era. Which is how I ended up with a 91 in college. And a close friend had the first car 15 I ever saw. We shot both extensively. You could get cheap German 762 in the green sleeves, cheaper than I could buy 223 until ppmc came along
I bought my first mini 14 for a quarter the cost of a Colt at that time. And factory mags were almost identical in cost between the two.
Not saying the mini is as good as modern Colts. Just that back then, the Colts were not what we have now. There were valid reasons the mini became as popular as it did.
Ace Hardware stores locally sold ruger's including the mini 14, and had mags in the sales counter. Probably 20:1 more retail distribution relative to Colts.
Then again, the local mall Sporting Goods chain (oshman's) briefly carried both H&K and Colt. Most LGSs could not get the Colts, not that different than what it was 5 to 10 years ago.
Yup, had a 91, also. Bought “battle packs” of ammo wrapped up like MRE’s. I thought that gun was awesome back then. Never had to worry about crap like commercial vs milspec stocks.
The good old days are right now.
Yup, had a 91, also. Bought “battle packs” of ammo wrapped up like MRE’s. I thought that gun was awesome back then. Never had to worry about crap like commercial vs milspec stocks.
I wish I had hung on to mine. Did still have it when the $1 mags and other German surplus were available. I still have the Hensoldt scope and claw mount.
The good old days are right now.
Certainly as far as AR-15 platform and 223/5.56 goes. Bad old days, parts were not easy to get. Nor mags. There was virtually no aftermarket. Got easier in the 80's, started to see new surplus show up at gun shows. You could get new in package real mags instead of Nam era beaters, many of which were culls.
But I miss the battle rifles and cheap 308/7.62. Still have some DAG or MEN battle packs. Should have bought a pallet. I want to say at one point they were $20/200 round sleeve. maybe cheaper in quantity.
I still get the urge for a battle rifle royal flush (91, FAL, M1A, AR10, Galil). I'd have to add an MWS and SR-25 to round it out. I really regret not doing some of the STG-58 parts kits and Imbel receivers.
But Grendel with inexpensive steel case ammo fills that urge now. And reasonable cost match grade ammo if needed. Easy to reload if in the mood. Just fun to shoot and hunt with.
Back to Colt. I enjoy my bog stock 6920 (really OEM1) with GI handguard and Carry handle. Maybe I got lucky, but no finish issues, great trigger, clean rollmark. Zackly what I wanted at a very reasonable price. It just works, and is a great reminder of how well the platform does even in bog stock form, wonky gov profile barrel and all. Everyone needs at least one Colt.
I won't say it's better than my other (LMT/DD & AA) hybrids built to my preference. But it's not at a disadvantage (other than optics and accuracy compared to the Grendel). I enjoy shooting them all. Still prefer simple carbines and enjoy shooting with open sights.
Those of us that were not big fan boys remembered them with their screw front takedown pin, weird BCG, and dick attitude to buyers just like Jane Vietnam Fonda.
Perfect analogy
See....Colt was coming back from that slump.
I buy Colt because I know Colt makes their own parts. If they do this, they are actually validating what the gun shop A holes say "aw they dont make their own parts"
Just stick to 1911s and ARs. Not hard.
The Colt Expanse and that outsourced abortion should have learned them.
I dont want a Colt Glock clone. Or another Freedom Group style lack of quality.
I mean I have all the AR stuff I need but it seems like I wont be able to name drop the 6920 so easily.
Oh well, There's always LMT, BCM, and KAC
Colt has always made parts in house and out sourced. All smart companies do this.
C4
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Look at the flood of Turkish handguns (and shotguns & some rifles) coming into the US these days. I guess it goes to show that you can save a lot of money on R&D if you just take a proven design (Walther, H&K, etc.), add a tweak here and there, and sell it by the buttload.
One company (Sarsilmaz?) actually injection molds their own polymer frames and even makes their own plastic gun cases.
Actually Turkey (MKE) is a licensed contract company of HK. At least as far as HK designs go, they paid for that R&D.
I also owned a Bushmaster back then. Colt wasn’t exactly sticking to the TDP. RRA probably sells as good a rifle as Colt was selling us 15 years ago.
Sorry Nope
Possible tangent, but... Doesn't 922r apply to Canadian-made guns too? That's probably the cop-out for why "no Diemacos here"...
Correct.
People who are not there then don't understand that. Half moon bolt carrier groups, mags were not that available, unless you bought up beat up Surplus.
.
People who were not there then don't understand the political enthusiasm to ban "assault weapons" in the late 80's. And no one gave a shit about Bushmaster, Essential Arms, Olympic or Pac West. Colt and the AR15 was the target, and there wasn't nearly the public support, nor the buyers, for those guns that there is now. GHWB did what he could by executive order to ban imports, and Colt did what they felt they had to keep selling them and not risk their govt contracts. They also had to deal with the state of CT in their numerous financial difficulties to rearrange shitty union contracts. Colt has always been a poorly managed company, but viewing their history through the lens of today is ignorant.
People who were not there then don't understand the political enthusiasm to ban "assault weapons" in the late 80's. And no one gave a shit about Bushmaster, Essential Arms, Olympic or Pac West. Colt and the AR15 was the target, and there wasn't nearly the public support, nor the buyers, for those guns that there is now. GHWB did what he could by executive order to ban imports, and Colt did what they felt they had to keep selling them and not risk their govt contracts. They also had to deal with the state of CT in their numerous financial difficulties to rearrange shitty union contracts. Colt has always been a poorly managed company, but viewing their history through the lens of today is ignorant.
All true. Bushmaster was welcome, as they were retail friendly. And as the clone market developed, you could get closer to a real M-16 than from Colt.
Then again, old man Ruger also worked a traitorous deal. So Colt was not alone. And clan Bush (spit spit) did as much damage to our rights as the Clintons succeeded at. And worse than Obama ever did. (Even attempted, really)
I was on the early internet then (rec.guns anyone?) and even then, only found out about the Bush & Clinton bans after the fact.
I'm just glad both Colt and Ruger wised up. Colt much later than Ruger. I don't know if Colt will survive their union environment and boardroom checkers. I hope they do. Meanwhile, Steyr is alive in Alabama, FN in SC, DD & even HK in GA (With Bill Alexander in the design dept to boot!).
Sorry Nope care to elaborate?
The current market is so awash with AR's that the casual/entry level buyer might not even miss Colt.
The only thing Colt brought to the party was a high level of quality assurance which was a carry over from their government/military contracts. As documented here they screwed around with their lowers for many years to keep you from using a mil spec upper or bolt carrier or fcg just generally being dicks about the whole thing for no reason. They made good barrels so once they went to small pivot pins and you could slap their uppers on any of the other many lowers that would accept a mil spec upper you could put together a pretty good frankengun. After they lost the mil contracts and started to cater to the lowly civilian market a little they put out some decent rifles, but by then it was too late, they had to share the market with other companies producing decent product equal to or better than what Colt made. If they started out giving the SP1 a push out pivot pin, then add the A1 fences, keep the cost down and produce to market demand the AR world would be very different today. Would Oly or Bushmaster have had a chance to start up if Colt would have provided a true AR version of what they were making for the military? But no they had to pull their PC crap and now in their twilight we have lots of choices that might not have been. So karma is a bitch, they pissed on us for 20+ years, if they go under I won't miss them that much, but they did make a fine M16A1 like I was issued in the early 70's. But I still get pissed off thinking about cleaning the SP1 I bought in 76, that stupid screw.
Doc Safari
02-14-18, 08:58
The current market is so awash with AR's that the casual/entry level buyer might not even miss Colt.
Sadly, this might be their epitaph. I would love to know the demographics of the average buyer of a Colt AR. It the mean age is over fifty I suspect Colt is doomed.
sidewaysil80
02-14-18, 11:07
Sadly, this might be their epitaph. I would love to know the demographics of the average buyer of a Colt AR. It the mean age is over fifty I suspect Colt is doomed.
I dunno, but personally after trying a handful of other off the shelf brands and building, I ultimately swapped to Colts. Their reputation combined with my experience with them in the USMC made it a no brainer. I wonder if a large market share is due to guys/gals getting out and "buying what they carried". I think their name carries a lot of weight and time will tell if it's enough to carry them forward. But the one thing they absolutely cannot do is risk quality or start turning out substandard products. They are often (whether right or wrong) heralded as the epitome of AR-15 quality and build spec and I think that is realistically their biggest selling point.
Outlander Systems
02-14-18, 11:41
This.
After picking up a 6920, I have little use for any of the other offerings on the market.
I dunno, but personally after trying a handful of other off the shelf brands and building, I ultimately swapped to Colts. Their reputation combined with my experience with them in the USMC made it a no brainer. I wonder if a large market share is due to guys/gals getting out and "buying what they carried". I think their name carries a lot of weight and time will tell if it's enough to carry them forward. But the one thing they absolutely cannot do is risk quality or start turning out substandard products. They are often (whether right or wrong) heralded as the epitome of AR-15 quality and build spec and I think that is realistically their biggest selling point.
When Colt does something to impress me they'll have my money, not unless and not until. Like actually be run by guys like us instead of bean counters, corporate raiders, and stooges and model their business accordingly for a change. If I want to drop coin on a name brand it'll be LaRue, LMT, or Noveske. You've gotta suck pretty bad to have been making what is now the most popular rifle on the market for 30-40 years before anyone else and have companies that started in the last 15 be kicking your butt like an NFL team stomping on pee wees.
Can anyone else match their production while maintaining their QC?
I always feel like the next actual shooting war will kick off and they will receive a gigantic order just in time.
Early in my AR career, I bought an Olympic, then a Bushmaster, and a pre-Ban DPMS as the AWB was in full effect, but they weren't a Colt. The Olympic was a very accurate rifle, and functioned flawlessly, but it was a heavy barrel H-BAR, and unwieldy. The Bushmaster short stroked, and I could never get it to run reliably. The DPMS was OK, but also had issues. I sold them all, and the day after Sandy Hook bought a Colt LE6920 FDE Magpul Edition. By this time they were branded, as an M4. The fit, and finish is superb, and to me it is a beautiful rifle. It shoots as good as it looks, and never hiccups. It is more accurate than it should be also.
I sincerely hope Colt continues to make a great AR.
Moose-Knuckle
02-20-18, 12:52
People who are not there then don't understand that. Half moon bolt carrier groups, mags were not that available, unless you bought up beat up Surplus.
H&K 91s were slightly less to buy, had similar mag availability, and were much more reliable then Colt ARs of that era. Which is how I ended up with a 91 in college. And a close friend had the first car 15 I ever saw. We shot both extensively. You could get cheap German 762 in the green sleeves, cheaper than I could buy 223 until ppmc came along
I bought my first mini 14 for a quarter the cost of a Colt at that time. And factory mags were almost identical in cost between the two.
Not saying the mini is as good as modern Colts. Just that back then, the Colts were not what we have now. There were valid reasons the mini became as popular as it did.
Ace Hardware stores locally sold ruger's including the mini 14, and had mags in the sales counter. Probably 20:1 more retail distribution relative to Colts.
Then again, the local mall Sporting Goods chain (oshman's) briefly carried both H&K and Colt. Most LGSs could not get the Colts, not that different than what it was 5 to 10 years ago.
Ahhh memories....
The above was my childhood. I even scored my first Swiss Army knife (a Wegner) from an Oshman's in the mall. They had a better price than the tobacco / cutlery shop. Before the internet, the average bea got their info from gun rags and guys like Col. Cooper and Mel Tappan.
Tappan lauded the Mini-14 over the Colt AR for the reasons you mentioned. My dad being a young working class father at the time couldn't afford the Colt and went with the 91. Looking back from today's market it's crazy to think one could acquire an imported HK for less than an AR. He then picked up a couple of Mini's and being a kid I thought they were cool thanks to The A-Team lol. Fast forward to when I was a young man and got married (the first time oops) during the ban I received a Colt MT6731 as a wedding gift. It came with a LW neutered barrel, sans bayo lug, A2 upper, A2 stock, big hole lower with front screw pin, and sear block. I swear, with that A2 stock the thing would have made an ideal boat oar.
I never drank the 6920 Kool-Aid as I don't have need for a 16" govt profile barrel with M203 cut outs, I think flare launchers are homo and I'm not a clone dork. Prior to the last Obama panic I acquired and squirreled away several 6720s for future generations, to me they are the ideal Colt / kiss carbine.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5642/23554133259_50b0d7d88e_k.jpg
I wish I had hung on to mine. Did still have it when the $1 mags and other German surplus were available. I still have the Hensoldt scope and claw mount.
As late as two years ago I was scoring NIW (new surplus) OEM "paratrooper" G3 five packs for under $5 a mag. These were still in the wrapper with German writing on them and date stamps from the 60's/70's. Now these have even all dried up.
If you ever want to part with that Hensoldt scope and claw mount shoot me a PM.
Ahhh memories....
The above was my childhood. I even scored my first Swiss Army knife (a Wegner) from an Oshman's in the mall. They had a better price than the tobacco / cutlery shop. Before the internet, the average bea got their info from gun rags and guys like Col. Cooper and Mel Tappan.
Tappan lauded the Mini-14 over the Colt AR for the reasons you mentioned. My dad being a young working class father at the time couldn't afford the Colt and went with the 91. Looking back from today's market it's crazy to think one could acquire an imported HK for less than an AR. He then picked up a couple of Mini's and being a kid I thought they were cool thanks to The A-Team lol. Fast forward to when I was a young man and got married (the first time oops) during the ban I received a Colt MT6731 as a wedding gift. It came with a LW neutered barrel, sans bayo lug, A2 upper, A2 stock, big hole lower with front screw pin, and sear block. I swear, with that A2 stock the thing would have made an ideal boat oar.
I never drank the 6920 Kool-Aid as I don't have need for a 16" govt profile barrel with M203 cut outs, I think flare launchers are homo and I'm not a clone dork. Prior to the last Obama panic I acquired and squirreled away several 6720s for future generations, to me they are the ideal Colt / kiss carbine.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5642/23554133259_50b0d7d88e_k.jpg
As late as two years ago I was scoring NIW (new surplus) OEM "paratrooper" G3 five packs for under $5 a mag. These were still in the wrapper with German writing on them and date stamps from the 60's/70's. Now these have even all dried up.
If you ever want to part with that Hensoldt scope and claw mount shoot me a PM.
I actually did several posts from Shotgun News showing wholesale / dealer prices for 1985 and 1986. The bottom dollar HK91 was about $350 however a Colt SP1 was typically $100 less.
People were buying HK91s because Colts still had a reputation for being "jamomatic poodle shooters that failed everyone in Vietnam."
I actually did several posts from Shotgun News showing wholesale / dealer prices for 1985 and 1986. The bottom dollar HK91 was about $350 however a Colt SP1 was typically $100 less.
With all respect, I can state as fact: the HK91A3 was cheaper retail in 1979 / early 1980 than Colt CAR-15's. I don't doubt that changed by the mid-80's.
Maybe Oshmanns had a better deal with Interarms than Colt. Or had a sale. Or it was the effect of the improving exchange rate.
I bought my first Mini-14 in '78 or so. And remember when they were first released around '75 or '76. (Was major topic of discussion at the FFL/Bike shop I worked for and their LEO cronies.)
I went to my first SHOT show in 1981. Still have some of the brochures. Including some rare ones that I'll never get rid of.
So I know full well what the relative prices were back then. And in many cases, small FFL prices in Shotgun news. My CMP buddy's dad was an FFL, and I did buy commanders and similar from him starting around '80. But I always had a fresh copy of SGN. Bathroom reading for me since '75 at the bike shop. Picked it up at newsstands. You could buy an MP-40 parts kit for almost nothing. (lust lust) :-)
People were buying HK91s because Colts still had a reputation for being "jamomatic poodle shooters that failed everyone in Vietnam."
Likewise, a buddy and I shot my HK91A3 and his CAR-15 side by side extensively with cheap ammo around that timeframe.
The CAR-15 was simply more finicky, ammo, mags, etc. The HK shot anything you fed it. (including Win Silvertip hunting ammo, which I shot my first deer with before I started reloading again)
I'm pretty sure any remaining CAR's from that era have been thoroughly debugged by now, but the reputation for finickiness was not just VN era "poodleshooter" FUD.
My analogy was the CAR-15 was a Porsche. The HK was a Mercedes, heavier, not quite as refined, etc. When the Colt ran, it ran great.
And my buddies CAR was not the only finicky one. Another college buddy was very active in CMP then. They were just exploring allowing the AR's in competition. (Until then it was just Garands and issued semi M-14's). One of the core issues was reliability, capability to finish the match. And early on, reliable mag availability. M1A's were available, but rare.
Everyone keeps forgetting about how badly Colt neutered the AR's back then. It was not just the pin. Bad, stupid BCG.
And that it was not a high point in Colt mfg quality. SOP for any Colt 1911 (and I had multiple ones) from that era was polishing out the tool marks on the feedramp. You could catch a nail in them, and they would stop many JHP's of the era before they started rolling the jacket over the cavity.
Colt was not civvy friendly on the AR's, nor distributor friendly in general. Mags were hard to get before quality surplus and aftermarket started surfacing. (You could take a chance on ex mil issue culls. But the mil culled them for a reason)
All this has changed. But at the time, there was a reason S&W ruled LEO (except for hand fitted pythons, diamondbacks, and similar)
Moose-Knuckle
02-20-18, 15:30
I actually did several posts from Shotgun News showing wholesale / dealer prices for 1985 and 1986. The bottom dollar HK91 was about $350 however a Colt SP1 was typically $100 less.
People were buying HK91s because Colts still had a reputation for being "jamomatic poodle shooters that failed everyone in Vietnam."
I remember your SGN threads, I was a child then so don't recall numbers but when I asked him my dad always told me that he couldn't find a Colt cheaper than an HK.
He also said he could never find a Valmet cheaper than an HK.
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