View Full Version : Wolves: Controversial Conversation
So,
Here in Minnesota, we have gone back and forth in regards to wolf hunting for a long time.
Most recently, we had an image traversing facebook supporting legislation that would revoke snaring rights to hunters as they cause collateral damage to animals, unintended targets, and the "ever endangered" wolf species.
I feel it's a statistical anomaly, and if it was my choice, Wolves would be open game at a hell of a premium for a license to be a controlled game just like it should be. Poachers will poach, and still do today illegally, but I wouldn't mind having a pelt and experiencing that hunt one day in a completely legal manner.
What-say-you?
Am I an evil person for deeming wolves a potentially dangerous species to the Natural Resources, as we know it today? Or am I one of the meat heads blocking "Natural Progression" even if it means I might not get the opportunity to get a deer or elk in a decade or two?
I am moderately intrigued to see how our generally conservative board feels about this topic. Should Snaring be outlawed? Is there no valid use for Snaring? Or should it be left alone? Should wolves be added to the license registry?
So,
Here in Minnesota, we have gone back and forth in regards to wolf hunting for a long time.
Most recently, we had an image traversing facebook supporting legislation that would revoke snaring rights to hunters as they cause collateral damage to animals, unintended targets, and the "ever endangered" wolf species.
I feel it's a statistical anomaly, and if it was my choice, Wolves would be open game at a hell of a premium for a license to be a controlled game just like it should be. Poachers will poach, but I wouldn't mind having a pelt and experiencing that hunt one day in a completely legal manner.
What-say-you?
Am I an evil person for deeming wolves a potentially dangerous species to the Natural Resources, as we know it? Or am I one of the meat heads blocking "Natural Progression" even if it means I might not get the opportunity to get a deer or elk in a decade or two?
I am moderately intrigued to see how our generally conservative board feels about this topic. Should Snaring be outlawed? Is there no valid use for Snaring? Or should it be left alone and animals added to the license registry?
I would ban snares and leg traps.
Wolves and other large predators are necessary for a healthy balance, IMO. Getting rid of wolves, bears, whatevers because some rancher lost a cow is probably why the mid-western states are over-run with unsustainably large deer populations. Enjoy that CWD.
Of course you also need to maintain balance of predator populations, so managing with hunting should be allowed. Rifle only though.
I hate trapping, so yes, snaring should be outlawed. All creatures deserve a clean and quick death. Snaring is neither. How would you like to be caught by your leg and left to either mutilate yourself in an attempt to escape or die of dehydration and exposure? Didn't think so...
I've never snared before, I haven't been fond of leg trapping due to ineffectiveness.
The impression I have been given about snares, and small game, is that death is usually pretty quick for wire snares due to the force used in setting them off. But, alas, I have no formal experience.
I am much less inclined to care about snares, and more about the persistence that killing off Coyotes is open season, no license required, but Wolves are treated in a different regard.
I don't agree that all wolves need to be removed, but rifle hunting in a controlled manner would be my elective.
Thanks for all the input thus far.
So,
Here in Minnesota, we have gone back and forth in regards to wolf hunting for a long time.
Most recently, we had an image traversing facebook supporting legislation that would revoke snaring rights to hunters as they cause collateral damage to animals, unintended targets, and the "ever endangered" wolf species.
I feel it's a statistical anomaly, and if it was my choice, Wolves would be open game at a hell of a premium for a license to be a controlled game just like it should be. Poachers will poach, but I wouldn't mind having a pelt and experiencing that hunt one day in a completely legal manner.
What-say-you?
Am I an evil person for deeming wolves a potentially dangerous species to the Natural Resources, as we know it? Or am I one of the meat heads blocking "Natural Progression" even if it means I might not get the opportunity to get a deer or elk in a decade or two?
I am moderately intrigued to see how our generally conservative board feels about this topic. Should Snaring be outlawed? Is there no valid use for Snaring? Or should it be left alone and animals added to the license registry?
I'll be curious to see how may replies you get from people who've actually trapped. I grew up on a cattle ranch. My dad was a ranch hand for 28 years. We always had a roof over our heads and plenty of food to eat, but cash money was in short supply. We did lots of things to make extra cash, from cutting firewood to bucking hay bales. One of those things was running trap lines for furbearers in the winter. Mostly muskrats, raccoons and opossums, with the occasional beaver and yote if we were lucky, and skunks if we weren't. I used leg traps, snares and live traps.
Anyone who's lived the full time ranching life knows that extra time is in short supply. There are gardens to be tended, animals to be fed and cared for, crops to sow and harvest, undergrowth to be cleared, repairs and improvements to be made and so forth. So sitting in a hide waiting for nuisance animals to show up for eradication isn't the best use of time. Better to set your traps and check them after all the other chores are done.
From an ethical standpoint, I preferred live traps whenever possible. If I trapped a non-targeted species, I could simply release them and move on. It happened a lot.
After live traps I preferred drown sets. That usually precluded most non-targeted species and made for a quicker end for the trapped animals. As a matter of fact, I don't ever remember taking a non-targeted species in a drown set.
After that, locking neck snares. Again to effect a quicker end for the animals, with some taking of non targeted species. Mostly feral cats (no big loss, they devastate quail populations) and on a couple of occasions, dogs.
While occasionally necessary due to circumstances, I really didn't like using leg traps in a non drown set. It always bothered me how long an animal suffers before being dispatched in a leg trap. I ran those twice daily at dusk and dawn.
So on the topic of non-live traps for hunters? I think there are certain circumstances where they should be approved. But in most circumstances? No. There's just too much room for abuse and waste. Maybe I'm just a softie now that I'm older? It pisses me off when I find unattended (and usually unmarked) trotlines, limblines and juglines with hooks in the water. I'll take time out of my own fishing to remove them or at least make sure the hooks can't snag a fish to waste for days or weeks before death. It's just inhumane and utterly unnecessary. Take the time necessary to police and secure your traps and lines, or you aren't a sportsman, at all.
As to predatory species and nature's balance? I guess it depends on just how many wolves per square mile you have in your area? If too many, you probably need a control program. But I'll bet more deer are sport killed by roving dog packs than wolves kill for survival. Just a guess, but it happens more than folks know.
In my area, we have WAY too many hawks. They're all fat and don't even seem to mind human presence much anymore. I have two that roost in my back yard, much to the chagrin of the squirrels and rabbits. The big thing is how much they and feral cats diminish the rodent population, which pushes the abundant number of yotes to search out both deer and family pets in my area. But raptors are federally protected, so there's nothing that can be done there. :(
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 13:38
Wolves are a hot-button topic where I live in the Inland NW (Eastern WA to Western MT, roughly speaking). They have had an undeniable impact on big game species since their reintroduction. Since they are, for better or worse, a native species to this area, my opinion is that they belong. Furthermore, I do not see how a responsible conservationist could argue otherwise. Fostering a natural environment as opposed to one artificially inflated with regard to certain species seems narrow-minded and short-sighted to me.
My only real complaint with wolf reintroduction, in Idaho especially, was the fact that they were allowed to roam completely unchecked for so long. The number of proposed breeding pairs was exceeded very quickly due to no hunting or trapping. Idaho now has essentially year-round trapping and hunting seasons for wolves of which I try to take every advantage.
In regards to trapping, I understand, and to some extent share, ethical reservations. That said, it remains one of the most effective tools available in controlling certain populations of animals- specifically predators given that they are relatively more difficult to hunt. The only snares allowed for wolves in Idaho are patterned after those used in Alaska and consist of braided aircraft cable suspended off of the ground. They are really ideally placed for an animal the size of an adult wolf, the most common bycatch being deer. I know a few very successful trappers who have reported catching nothing else. The snares are effective and quick killers as well. With regard to leg holds, while the animal is immobilized, it is not as gruesome as some make it out to be and the trappers that I know check their sets more often than the required minimum of 72 hours and ensure a quick kill when they are successful
Wolves and other large predators are necessary for a healthy balance, IMO. Getting rid of wolves, bears, whatevers because some rancher lost a cow is probably why the mid-western states are over-run with unsustainably large deer populations. Enjoy that CWD.
Of course you also need to maintain balance of predator populations, so managing with hunting should be allowed. Rifle only though.
I hate trapping, so yes, snaring should be outlawed. All creatures deserve a clean and quick death. Snaring is neither. How would you like to be caught by your leg and left to either mutilate yourself in an attempt to escape or die of dehydration and exposure? Didn't think so...
That's why I asked if maybe my mentality is genuinely offset. I am not sure if it is a factor for CWD. Thankfully I am North Enough to Avoid it all. I am in area 182. That affords me 5 deer and one early antlerless. I normally pay the 109 for the Super Sports Combo, than 7 bucks for Early Antlerless. I missed out on both tags last year due to traveling for work, but even separate its 26 bucks for the single tag and 7 for the early season. I couldn't even imagine filling 5 tags, or spending 26 x 5 for 5 tags, but people do around here. I've seen many families sustained for a year in one season. It's crazy though, as I would be willing to give up my ability (even if I didn't use it that much) to allow less CWD spread. Not sure if that's been researched.
I agree on your predator statement, especially pertaining to rifle.
I am much less inclined to care about snares, and more about the persistence that killing off Coyotes is open season, no license required, but Wolves are treated in a different regard.
I don't agree that all wolves need to be removed, but rifle hunting in a controlled manner would be my elective.
I am under the impression wolves are endangered? Hence the difference in rules for coyotes vs wolves?
I'll be curious to see how may replies you get from people who've actually trapped. I grew up on a cattle ranch. My dad was a ranch hand for 28 years. We always had a roof over our heads and plenty of food to eat, but cash money was in short supply. We did lots of things to make extra cash, from cutting firewood to bucking hay bales. One of those things was running trap lines for furbearers in the winter. Mostly muskrats, raccoons and opossums, with the occasional beaver and yote if we were lucky, and skunks if we weren't. I used leg traps, snares and live traps.
Anyone who's lived the full time ranching life knows that extra time is in short supply. There are gardens to be tended, animals to be fed and cared for, crops to sow and harvest, undergrowth to be cleared, repairs and improvements to be made and so forth. So sitting in a hide waiting for nuisance animals to show up for eradication isn't the best use of time. Better to set your traps and check them after all the other chores are done.
From an ethical standpoint, I preferred live traps whenever possible. If I trapped a non-targeted species, I could simply release them and move on. It happened a lot.
After live traps I preferred drown sets. That usually precluded most non-targeted species and made for a quicker end for the trapped animals. As a matter of fact, I don't ever remember taking a non-targeted species in a drown set.
After that, locking neck snares. Again to effect a quicker end for the animals, with some taking of non targeted species. Mostly feral cats (no big loss, they devastate quail populations) and on a couple of occasions, dogs.
While occasionally necessary due to circumstances, I really didn't like using leg traps in a non drown set. It always bothered me how long an animal suffers before being dispatched in a leg trap. I ran those twice daily at dusk and dawn.
So on the topic of non-live traps for hunters? I think there are certain circumstances where they should be approved. But in most circumstances? No. There's just too much room for abuse and waste. Maybe I'm just a softie now that I'm older? It pisses me off when I find unattended (and usually unmarked) trotlines, limblines and juglines with hooks in the water. I'll take time out of my own fishing to remove them or at least make sure the hooks can't snag a fish to waste for days or weeks before death. It's just inhumane and utterly unnecessary. Take the time necessary to police and secure your traps and lines, or you aren't a sportsman, at all.
As to predatory species and nature's balance? I guess it depends on just how many wolves per square mile you have in your area? If too many, you probably need a control program. But I'll bet more deer are sport killed by roving dog packs than wolves kill for survival. Just a guess, but it happens more than folks know.
In my area, we have WAY too many hawks. They're all fat and don't even seem to mind human presence much anymore. I have two that roost in my back yard, much to the chagrin of the squirrels and rabbits. The big thing is how much they and feral cats diminish the rodent population, which pushes the abundant number of yotes to search out both deer and family pets in my area. But raptors are federally protected, so there's nothing that can be done there. :(
Wolves are a hot-button topic where I live in the Inland NW (Eastern WA to Western MT, roughly speaking). They have had an undeniable impact on big game species since their reintroduction. Since they are, for better or worse, a native species to this area, my opinion is that they belong. Furthermore, I do not see how a responsible conservationist could argue otherwise. Fostering a natural environment as opposed to one artificially inflated with regard to certain species seems narrow-minded and short-sighted to me.
My only real complaint with wolf reintroduction, in Idaho especially, was the fact that they were allowed to roam completely unchecked for so long. The number of proposed breeding pairs was exceeded very quickly due to no hunting or trapping. Idaho now has essentially year-round trapping and hunting seasons for wolves of which I try to take every advantage.
In regards to trapping, I understand, and to some extent share, ethical reservations. That said, it remains one of the most effective tools available in controlling certain populations of animals- specifically predators given that they are relatively more difficult to hunt. The only snares allowed for wolves in Idaho are patterned after those used in Alaska and consist of braided aircraft cable suspended off of the ground. They are really ideally placed for an animal the size of an adult wolf, the most common bycatch being deer. I know a few very successful trappers who have reported catching nothing else. The snares are effective and quick killers as well. With regard to leg holds, while the animal is immobilized, it is not as gruesome as some make it out to be and the trappers that I know check their sets more often than the required minimum of 72 hours and ensure a quick kill when they are successful
Both of your posts are extremely eye opening and give a youngin' like me a lot more of a foundation to look to. Especially thanks for Glocktogo for the vivid explanation and utilization. It built a lot of good value into your rhetoric.
I am under the impression wolves are endangered? Hence the difference in rules for coyotes vs wolves?
Taking a look at the statistics, it's not hard to deny. And, in my opinion, this topic is one of the most controversial.
We have a lot of people saying that they are already getting out of hand; while others insist it's too early to do a population count and review.
Looks like in 2014 they recorded about 2300 Wolves in Minnesota. I have heard the numbers, due to unpredictable breeding, has grown significantly since then.
However, when Minnesota harvests about 4000 Coyotes a year, it's understandable that they will have significant population differences.
I am more in the mindset of: We have a bear lottery up here that supports and builds habitats, why not perform a lottery that will do the same with the other predatory species.
However, without truly accurate and, most importantly: current, count for the Wolf population in Minnesota, I will have to admit that I have no formal numbers to justify them not being deemed still endangered. Touche.
No matter what, all-in-all, I do not believe Wolves should be eradicated. I do believe they have a natural place in our ecosystem as they were a part of it long before we were. I just don't want to give the wrong impression. I agree, it would be foolish to believe that removing something from it's system completely could do more good than harm. I also didn't have much of a position of snaring as I had only heard anecdotal remarks and systems in survival books, shows, etc. It's an art lost on most nowadays; I have always believed in good sportsmanship and making sure to be as ethical and humane as possible.
I am more in the mindset of: We have a bear lottery up here that supports and builds habitats, why not perform a lottery that will do the same with the other predatory species.
I imagine they will when the numbers get big enough.
Kinda like in NJ when they have the bear hunts.
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 14:19
Both of your posts are extremely eye opening and give a youngin' like me a lot more of a foundation to look to. Especially thanks for Glocktogo for the vivid explanation and utilization. It built a lot of good value into your rhetoric.
I doubt that I’m much older than you if at all, but you’re welcome anyways. Too put my views in a little bit better perspective, I’m a passionate elk hunter and these animals are possibly more affected by wolves than any other species. If I would have a bias, I would think it would be anti-wolf.
While I’ve run snares for wolves, I’ve never set leghold traps for anything. I work in the woods four or five days a week and meet trappers and see their results often as well as being personal friends with more than a few. I’ve also assisted the Game & Fish department in removing bycatch. I’m not saying that it never happens, but I have personally not seen an animal in extreme duress while being held in a leghold trap.
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 14:22
I am under the impression wolves are endangered? Hence the difference in rules for coyotes vs wolves?
Not nationwide, no. Certain regional populations may protected such as the Mexican wolf in the Southwest.
Eurodriver
02-12-18, 14:59
People seem to get really heated about some damn wolves.
They opened a hunt in northern mi a few years back. I went down state and saw a guy with a sign protesting it and asking for petitions against it. He asked me to sign. I explained how the population had grown rapidly in a small area and they were causing problems. I asked him if he would like them relocated to his backyard. He then told me he didn't care about wolves and was only doing that to fulfill a community service obligation.
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Both of your posts are extremely eye opening and give a youngin' like me a lot more of a foundation to look to. Especially thanks for Glocktogo for the vivid explanation and utilization. It built a lot of good value into your rhetoric.
You're welcome!
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 15:37
People seem to get really heated about some damn wolves.
Very true. Up here if it’s not an ecological argument, it’s usually an excuse to damn the government etc, etc
My wife hikes the woods with our three Golden Retrievers almost daily, all seasons. She has come across snares, leg holds, and once even a conibear. She has become adept at dismantling these traps, detaching them and pitching them in the nearest swamp or bog.
Eurodriver
02-12-18, 16:55
My wife hikes the woods with our three Golden Retrievers almost daily, all seasons. She has come across snares, leg holds, and once even a conibear. She has become adept at dismantling these traps, detaching them and pitching them in the nearest swamp or bog.
Messing with a criminal’s property sounds like a good way to get dead. She can’t report this to Fish & Wildlife?
Dr. Bullseye
02-12-18, 16:58
Also ban poisoning. Wolf hunters deserve a clean death.
Messing with a criminal’s property sounds like a good way to get dead. She can’t report this to Fish & Wildlife?
Yeah. Hang on and I’ll ask her if she worries about that....
Edit... no, she doesn’t worry about that
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 17:19
My wife hikes the woods with our three Golden Retrievers almost daily, all seasons. She has come across snares, leg holds, and once even a conibear. She has become adept at dismantling these traps, detaching them and pitching them in the nearest swamp or bog.
You may wish to check your local regulations, she would face hefty fines for doing that here.
You may wish to check your local regulations, she would face hefty fines for doing that here.
Naturally, she’s aware of that.
WickedWillis
02-12-18, 18:26
I would ban snares and leg traps.
I generally feel like all trapping and snaring of predators is straight ***** hunting myself. If you can't hunt and kill them with all your thermal, and baiting, and being able to clap them from 600 yards then maybe you don't need to be hunting? "But predator hunting is hard!" I literally don't care. Man up.
BuzzinSATX
02-12-18, 19:01
My wife hikes the woods with our three Golden Retrievers almost daily, all seasons. She has come across snares, leg holds, and once even a conibear. She has become adept at dismantling these traps, detaching them and pitching them in the nearest swamp or bog.
If she's messing with legally set traps (in season, allowed traps, public or private property where trapper is allowed), then she is committing a crime. No different than actively screwing up someone's legal hunt.
BuzzinSATX
02-12-18, 19:06
Messing with a criminal’s property sounds like a good way to get dead. She can’t report this to Fish & Wildlife?
The traps are quite possibly legal...which would make the person messing with them the criminal.
BuzzinSATX
02-12-18, 19:21
I generally feel like all trapping and snaring of predators is straight ***** hunting myself. If you can't hunt and kill them with all your thermal, and baiting, and being able to clap them from 600 yards then maybe you don't need to be hunting? "But predator hunting is hard!" I literally don't care. Man up.
Trapping serves a purpose just like many other wildlife control methods like hunting seasons and bag limits. Trapping is an American institution that is, unfortunately, fading fast in many places inner Nation. When I was stationed in Alaska and Montana, I trapped for several years, both water trapping for coon, mink, muskrat, and beaver, as well as dry land trapping for fox, bobcats, coyote, etc. There is nothing easy about trapping if you are doing it right, but it is a challenge, and can be profitable if you are successful. I used snares, leg hold, and body gripping traps. All were legal where I was.
I ran across situations where I was setting traps in locations folks prefer I stay away from, usually due to pets or just preferences. I always moved traps when asked even though I had a right to be where I was...it was simple common courtesy. On the other hand, I ran across several other folks who asked me to come trap other land to help them reduce the numbers of coon, badger, and coyotes around their property, so it works both ways.
I never messed with wolves and lions but as we see with lions in CA, when left unchecked, they can become a dangerous critter to have around. Hunting and trapping is a good tool to help try and keep them in check, but it doesn't always help....ask any moose in AK how wolves can get out of hand fast.
The traps are quite possibly legal...which would make the person messing with them the criminal.
Don't. Care.
BuzzinSATX
02-12-18, 19:40
I feel it's a statistical anomaly, and if it was my choice, Wolves would be open game at a hell of a premium for a license to be a controlled game just like it should be. Poachers will poach, and still do today illegally, but I wouldn't mind having a pelt and experiencing that hunt one day in a completely legal manner.
What-say-you?
Am I an evil person for deeming wolves a potentially dangerous species to the Natural Resources, as we know it today? Or am I one of the meat heads blocking "Natural Progression" even if it means I might not get the opportunity to get a deer or elk in a decade or two?
I am moderately intrigued to see how our generally conservative board feels about this topic. Should Snaring be outlawed? Is there no valid use for Snaring? Or should it be left alone? Should wolves be added to the license registry?
Wolves are NOT easy to hunt...they are an extremely smart animal. Most wolves that are shot are taken because they were in the wrong place, wrong time. They are not an animal you will likely be able to stalk like a deer. They generally have large territories and make unpredictable movements. They are largely nocturnal, and do not come to calls as easily as a coyote or fox.
There are ways to minimize (but not eliminate) catching nontarget animals in snares, like mandating the use of deer-stops, which prevent the snare from totally closing, and allowing animals like deer to get out.
FTR, I am no longer an active hunter or trapper, and have almost completely eliminated animal protein from my diet, so I'm not someone who currently has any personal interest in killing a wolf. But the folks in MN need to be cautious about having too many large wild canines running around...as they will always go for the easy meal, which might include their livestock and/or pets...
BuzzinSATX
02-12-18, 19:43
Don't. Care.
So...above the law...or just proud to be a criminal? Kinda sound like these little POS kids who run around and screw up shit when they don't get their way...
So...above the law...or just proud to be a criminal? Kinda sound like these little POS kids who run around and screw up shit when they don't get their way...
Care about your opinion even less.
Just my opinion. I don't understand the idea of killing anything that isn't an immediate threat or to feed me.
No interest in shooting something just to have skin or skull or get a hard on from ground bones
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Don't. Care.
So I don’t post much on this on this site,but I do read here almost daily. So I have a pretty good understanding of who’s who around here. I am aware that you are a doctor and from the post of yours that I have read in the past you seem to be quite the decent person. I am in no way trying to be disrespectful to you at all, but I would like to maybe change your perspective a little. Read the following with the flattest Ben Stien voice you can imagine.
What I am about to type goes on a few assumptions. The first one being that the traps are legal, the second being that your wife is hiking with the dogs on public land or private land that doesn’t belong to you. If these assumptions are incorrect then disregard the following.
Assuming these things what is the difference in what she is doing and what someone like Diane Feinstein or any other anti-gunner does when they come after our guns? If the traps are legally set, and she is on public land or private land that the trapper has the right be on then she has absolutely no business touching someone else’s property. It is none of her concern. Is she doing this out of fear for the safety of the dogs? If so that doesn’t dictate throwing someone else’s stuff into a swamp where they can’t recover it. She could bring her issues to the land owner, or the DNR for whatever state you live in. She could attemp to contact the trapper and ask him to set up somewhere else. There are many better ways to handle it than taking the law into her own hands.
Whether she or anybody else likes trapping or not really doesn’t matter, if it’s legal. Doing something illegal to “teach someone a lesson” is inexcusable. Traps cost money, and taking someone’s traps not only outs then the money for the trap but it outs them the money they may have made from whatever fur they may have harvested.
There are many legal activities that people participate in that fall into an ethical gray areas. I don’t consider trapping to be one of them but I can see where people could be opposed to it. That doesn’t change the fact that when she moves the traps and throws them away she is basically stealing. What’s the difference in doing that and these protesters who destroy property in the name of their cause?
Just something to think about.
Just something to think about.
Thank you a response that doesn't perceive the need to stoop to a personal attack.
Thank you a response that doesn't perceive the need to stoop to a personal attack.
You’re quite welcome sir.
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 21:10
So I don’t post much on this on this site,but I do read here almost daily. So I have a pretty good understanding of who’s who around here. I am aware that you are a doctor and from the post of yours that I have read in the past you seem to be quite the decent person. I am in no way trying to be disrespectful to you at all, but I would like to maybe change your perspective a little. Read the following with the flattest Ben Stien voice you can imagine.
What I am about to type goes on a few assumptions. The first one being that the traps are legal, the second being that your wife is hiking with the dogs on public land or private land that doesn’t belong to you. If these assumptions are incorrect then disregard the following.
Assuming these things what is the difference in what she is doing and what someone like Diane Feinstein or any other anti-gunner does when they come after our guns? If the traps are legally set, and she is on public land or private land that the trapper has the right be on then she has absolutely no business touching someone else’s property. It is none of her concern. Is she doing this out of fear for the safety of the dogs? If so that doesn’t dictate throwing someone else’s stuff into a swamp where they can’t recover it. She could bring her issues to the land owner, or the DNR for whatever state you live in. She could attemp to contact the trapper and ask him to set up somewhere else. There are many better ways to handle it than taking the law into her own hands.
Whether she or anybody else likes trapping or not really doesn’t matter, if it’s legal. Doing something illegal to “teach someone a lesson” is inexcusable. Traps cost money, and taking someone’s traps not only outs then the money for the trap but it outs them the money they may have made from whatever fur they may have harvested.
There are many legal activities that people participate in that fall into an ethical gray areas. I don’t consider trapping to be one of them but I can see where people could be opposed to it. That doesn’t change the fact that when she moves the traps and throws them away she is basically stealing. What’s the difference in doing that and these protesters who destroy property in the name of their cause?
Just something to think about.
Excellent post. I know men and women who make a part of their winter living trapping in accordance with the law. To disturb their livelihood is criminal both legally and morally. I do not intend a personal insult here, just my opinion based on first-hand experience.
The trapping of a personally owned dog is something that concerns me greatly. In these parts, wolf snares are really only effective if placed in areas accessible only to snowmobile/tracked ATV/skis/etc., i.e. areas where one would be unlikely to encounter someone’s pet. Indeed, wolf snares are a big concern of mine when in the field with my canine partner. Luckily the fool doesn’t range much more than 25 yards from me at any time so I can be onto him quickly if he would become snared.
Luckily the fool doesn’t range much more than 25 yards from me at any time so I can be onto him quickly if he would become snared.
And if it's a leg hold, or worse..a conibear? By the time you get to him his leg is toast, or he's dead.
gunnerblue
02-12-18, 22:04
The Conibear is a fair point, but they are rare around here so I accept the risk (we’re LE so we’re used to it). Leg hold traps, despite popular assumption, are designed to HOLD the leg-not break or damage the limb. If it did, it would actually be easier for the animal to escape as the flesh would be easily torn with no intact bone for support. Leg hold traps are often used when trapping animals for relocation. It would hardly do to lessen an animal’s chance at survival in a new environment by hampering its mobility.
Averageman
02-12-18, 22:12
I was invited to run a trap line on a local ranch while I was in high school.
I had an experienced Trapper show me the ropes and at one point I might have had as many as 40 sets out over a weekend and maybe a dozen during the weekdays.
For the most part and because this was Arizona, we caught Coyotes. Probably 100-150 Coyotes over four months. Now that's a lot of Coyotes, but it barely put a dent in the population as far as I could tell.Toward the end you could tell it had just moved the population out and toward the BLM property nearby. You could go ten miles away and call Coyotes very, very successfully.
It's easy to assume this is cruel and a viscous way to treat an animal, but to balance those thoughts you have to understand that there simply wouldn't be the large numbers of Coyotes if they weren't killing a large number of calves. You could tell by simply seeing the numbers of calves with bobbed tails and the Coyote scat in the same range with hair fibers.
I don't know a thing about Wolves, but I would imagine that they can kill a lot more and with greater efficiency.
skywalkrNCSU
02-13-18, 08:48
I don’t have any experience trapping so I can’t comment on that except I think there is absolutely a place for it when done legally and responsibly. I hunt but not for any sort of bloodlust. The act of killing an animal is the worst part of hunting in my opinion and I have no desire to hunt wolves. That said, they should absolutely be managed like any other game animal so removing hunting because people like them as animals is beyond stupid and just thinking on emotion. If I worked in ranching and wolves were a problem near me I would absolutely hunt them.
I think of wolf hunting a lot of how I think of bear hunting. We think of these animals as charismatic megafauna because we grew up with stuffed versions in our crib, watched cartoons where they were super friendly, and they are smart animals. For some reason this causes people to throw logic out the window when the subject of hunting them comes up. I certainly don’t want to eliminate them because I think they are awesome animals and serve a place in the ecosystem but like anything else, if they reach a certain population threshold they should be managed and hunting is the best way to manage them.
skywalkrNCSU
02-13-18, 08:54
I was invited to run a trap line on a local ranch while I was in high school.
I had an experienced Trapper show me the ropes and at one point I might have had as many as 40 sets out over a weekend and maybe a dozen during the weekdays.
For the most part and because this was Arizona, we caught Coyotes. Probably 100-150 Coyotes over four months. Now that's a lot of Coyotes, but it barely put a dent in the population as far as I could tell.Toward the end you could tell it had just moved the population out and toward the BLM property nearby. You could go ten miles away and call Coyotes very, very successfully.
It's easy to assume this is cruel and a viscous way to treat an animal, but to balance those thoughts you have to understand that there simply wouldn't be the large numbers of Coyotes if they weren't killing a large number of calves. You could tell by simply seeing the numbers of calves with bobbed tails and the Coyote scat in the same range with hair fibers.
I don't know a thing about Wolves, but I would imagine that they can kill a lot more and with greater efficiency.
Coyotes are fascinating animals, they are an animal that humans have tried to systematically eliminate and yet they have only expanded their range. I heard that one issue with hunting them is that it can actually increase their numbers. When they do their howl it acts as a roll call and when one is missing the alpha female kicks into her reproductive cycle and had a little of pups. Dan Flores is the one who I heard that from, he wrote the book Coyote America and was a guest on the Meateater podcast with Steve Rinalla, the most interesting hunting podcast I have found.
Coyotes are fascinating animals, they are an animal that humans have tried to systematically eliminate and yet they have only expanded their range. I heard that one issue with hunting them is that it can actually increase their numbers. When they do their howl it acts as a roll call and when one is missing the alpha female kicks into her reproductive cycle and had a little of pups. Dan Flores is the one who I heard that from, he wrote the book Coyote America and was a guest on the Meateater podcast with Steve Rinalla, the most interesting hunting podcast I have found.
Well, hot damn...
This might explain why we had more activity in our areas the year after we moved onto this property and started hitting the ones stupid enough to try and get close to our Chicken Coop. I just thought we had that many roaming through. Interesting read, thank for sharing.
Over all, I have learned a lot about snaring/trapping and the different types. I think you all have provided a good service in educating someone (myself) about this topic and getting a better idea on how it applies.
I think Skywalker's post on the previous page echoes my mentality at this point.
Nonetheless, I didn't expect this many responses in such a short time. It's remained pretty civil, 'cept a couple individuals.
Well, hot damn...
This might explain why we had more activity in our areas the year after we moved onto this property and started hitting the ones stupid enough to try and get close to our Chicken Coop. I just thought we had that many roaming through. Interesting read, thank for sharing.
Over all, I have learned a lot about snaring/trapping and the different types. I think you all have provided a good service in educating someone (myself) about this topic and getting a better idea on how it applies.
I think Skywalker's post on the previous page echoes my mentality at this point.
Nonetheless, I didn't expect this many responses in such a short time. It's remained pretty civil, 'cept a couple individuals.
I'm surprised at how many have trapping experience. I expected it to be a lost art except for die hard survivalists. Then again, I've been out of the trapping business for 30 years and it's been a couple of decades plus since I hunted or poked cows. :)
I'm surprised at how many have trapping experience. I expected it to be a lost art except for die hard survivalists. Then again, I've been out of the trapping business for 30 years and it's been a couple of decades plus since I hunted or poked cows. :)
I periodically run a trap-line to deal with invisible beavers on my property. Anyone who is anti-trapping in this scenario has no clue as to how invasive & destructive beavers are. In most cases, once they show up, your woods, yard, whatever will soon be under water. I have over 100 hardwoods on my property killed by beavers, which then fall, blocking trails/roads, etc. Basically, beavers constantly expand their water as they eat (kill) the trees, and their offspring have to expand. I don't try to eliminate them all, just put a dent in them to curb the need to expand.
The connibear is the most ethical trap that exists. Some areas will only allow their use. It will not trap deer, and in most cases, will not see unintended bycatch if set correctly. I don't enjoy trapping, but have no issue with it as long as done ethically. I'd probably rather not trap bobcat/Lynx, etc. But only because they are rare in my area.
As to Wolves, we don't have them. But I'd welcome them, as we've never had as much game locally as we have since coyotes moved in. (and I have a bunch locally, they sounds like a pack of hyenas at times)
I've made my peace with the Coyotes. Yep, they eat deer and much else. I find the skulls in my pasture where they like to hang out at night. But overall, game seems more healthier now. Less extreme swings. We see more turkeys, rabbits, snakes, deer, then we ever did before.
I've also made my peace with the giant snapping turtle in my pond... it keeps geese away Spring-Fall. I do wish the ducks could use the pond, but if you've ever been around where geese hangout, I'll take the tradeoff. And he does not really eat much fish.
One last thing on the pack animals... like Coyotes... killing/thinning them does not work. They will increase the reproductive rate to makeup the loss. And once stable, dial it back down again. They only thing they have found that can keep them away is recordings of the blood curdling hyena sounding warbling they do as a pack to show the territory is occupied.
I have a neighbor who sits out at night guarding his goats and chickens because of coyotes. He's not learned the above yet. :-) I'd rather have the Coyotes, they have more claim to the land than pigmy goats do. Other neighbors raise stupidly expensive Alpacas. They have a particular guard dog breed that lives with them. They never have coyote problems. Nor do the ones with "watch-donkeys".
What I find very hypocritical is that many of the anti trapping crowd are the first to want the coyote's gone because they eat their family cat's. When in fact, the cats are ruthless killers of birds, rodents, snakes, lizards, pretty much everything.
We also have Great Horned Owls. Many cat/small dog losses at night are really from them, not Coyotes. But 'yotes are pretty opportunistic. Just wish they were more effective against beavers. Coyotes will haul a beaver carcass that weighs 50+ lbs to family and eat it.
Same for the hawks. Red Shoulders largely do not bother anything bigger than snakes/lizzards/mice/rats. Red Tails prefer more docile game. They are very opportunistic, will avoid even squirrels and the risk of bites if they can get smaller stuff. Yep, they'll happily eat a rabbit, but unless it's a very hungry juvenile, rarely would bother a cat or small dog. My son is a falconer, we've spent years handling & hunting hawks. I guess technically I'm a falconer as well as I passed the test, could have one. Still hunt with him and his hawk several times a year. (mostly squirrels)
I periodically run a trap-line to deal with invisible beavers on my property. Anyone who is anti-trapping in this scenario has no clue as to how invasive & destructive beavers are. In most cases, once they show up, your woods, yard, whatever will soon be under water. I have over 100 hardwoods on my property killed by beavers, which then fall, blocking trails/roads, etc. Basically, beavers constantly expand their water as they eat (kill) the trees, and their offspring have to expand. I don't try to eliminate them all, just put a dent in them to curb the need to expand.
The connibear is the most ethical trap that exists. Some areas will only allow their use. It will not trap deer, and in most cases, will not see unintended bycatch if set correctly. I don't enjoy trapping, but have no issue with it as long as done ethically. I'd probably rather not trap bobcat/Lynx, etc. But only because they are rare in my area.
My dad used to go out a couple of nights every spring and thin out the beavers with a 10ga goose gun. They can really do some damage if left unchecked.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/7676300/Worlds-biggest-beaver-dam-can-be-seen-from-space.html
And the donkey observation is spot on. They're great guards against yotes.
One last thing...
Most of the anti-Connibear stuff I see comes from people who are:
1) Transiting property they do not own
2) Lettings dogs run off leash on said non-owned property
Almost by definition:
1) If people are putting traps on your (or jointly owned) property without permission... It's illegal, call Fish & Game.
2) If they are putting traps on public property and is not allowed... It's illegal, call Fish & Game.
3) If it's public property and is allowed, it's legal, and if you don't like that, change the law. But until you do so in most states, it's illegal to tamper with otherwise legal trapping sets (or hunters).
And the biggie...
4) If on public lands, in many states, it's illegal to allow dogs off lead unless involved in hunting activities. If they leave your property and get on other's land (private or public), you are at fault for anything that happens to fido. Some will not like this point, but it's true, and in most areas, the law.
5) Keep your leashed dog on trails, and pay attention to where they stick their heads. I've never heard of a leashed dog encountering a kill trap. There are trapping laws that largely prevent this.
These 5 cases cover pretty much every situation a non-trapper & dog would ever encounter a connibear trap.
Meanwhile, dogs running deer, rabbits, foxes, chasing horses, or worse, throwing the rider happens every day in national parks near me. Illegal to have them off lead. Not allowed, verbotten. By the way, pick up after them. (never happens).
I live next to a lady crippled from being thrown from her horse on a public designated horseback trail from an off lead dog which attacked her horse, jogger owner 100 yards away making no attempt to control it.
So while I get no joy out of trapping invisible beavers with Connibears... (OK, a little, if it's successful), and in particular, I'm not a fan of trapping on WMA's... I believe it's legal, should be allowed. And because of property rights, should be legal without restriction on land you own.
Also, the same folks (usually) that are driving anti-trapping behavior use "we should not kill animals" as their basis, and are also anti-hunting. And usually use the same logic to pursue that goal. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they are rare in my experience.
So no, I'm not sympathetic to the "Connibears sometimes kill dogs" thing. Even though I would be very sad if my dog got killed in one, it would be my fault. Just like if they got killed by a car. Dogs off lead on property you don't own often come to a bad end.
Here's the deal... in my state... it's perfectly legal to kill beaver. Nuisance status. And completely illegal to tamper with a dam or den, even on your own property. Even if the beavers just moved in from downstream, and would flood your home. So what do you think folks do?
Also, beavers are smart in that canny rodent way. More like pigs. Trap them, they get trap shy. Shoot them, they go totally nocturnal. (you can usually only get away with it once). Tear their dam down, they build it back. Tear it down to the roots, they build it back stronger. Put a drain in that sneaks water out? They will build one 25 yards downstream, writing off the old dam site as problematic. BTDT.
The only longer term answer is to keep them thinned out. I leave small ponds with dams. A pair or two is not a problem. Keeps the skeeters down (fish) and gives the wood ducks a place to hang out.
The problem is, left unabated, they will flood 10-12 acres of mature hardwoods, and another 5-10 acres of pasture. In a year or two. And then keep moving upstream as well as expanding the current pond.
Back to Wolves and top predators... the same folks who want to let their dogs and cats run free will be the first to complain if they
are eaten by wolves or yotes. I'm sorry the jogger or the farmer's sheep was attacked by the mountain lion. You were in their house! Predators predate! We have plenty of joggers and sheep. Puma's are scarce!
I have a neighbor who sits out at night guarding his goats and chickens because of coyotes. He's not learned the above yet. :-) I'd rather have the Coyotes, they have more claim to the land than pigmy goats do. Other neighbors raise stupidly expensive Alpacas. They have a particular guard dog breed that lives with them. They never have coyote problems. Nor do the ones with "watch-donkeys".
In my experience some sort of guard animal (donkey, sheepdog, or llama) is usually enough to keep coyotes away from a heard of sheep or goats. The territorial nature of coyotes can also be a factor. If your property falls within the territory of an animal that is content to hunt small game and leave livestock alone, the worst thing you can do is kill that animal and open the territory up to another coyote that may not be so reluctant to kill domesticated animals.
I have no experience with wolves and livestock depredation.
If your property falls within the territory of an animal that is content to hunt small game and leave livestock alone, the worst thing you can do is kill that animal and open the territory up to another coyote that may not be so reluctant to kill domesticated animals.
Read an article recently, coyotes will apparently come back in estrus based on missing the howls of missing (dead) pack members. Where if the pack is stable in number they would not come into season as frequently.
Also learned that the really wild group howling is a territorial thing. That if it's thinned out, neighboring packs will move in.
Bottom line, thinning out the coyotes does not work. I've made peace with the pack on my property. And we've never seen as much game as we do now. The same day recently I saw two coyotes I saw a turkey and a bunch of does.
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