View Full Version : "I believe in the Second Amendment...BUT....."
Every politician seems to believe in the Second Amendment. Until they don't. This guy (current mayor of Dallas) purports to speak for Dallas and wants the NRA to have it's May convention elsewhere?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/20/top-dallas-official-pressuring-nra-to-hold-convention-elsewhere.html
Dallas Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway is telling the National Rifle Association to consider holding its annual convention this spring somewhere else, warning of protests if the event is held in Dallas as planned.
"I am saying to the NRA, reconsider coming to Dallas,” Caraway reportedly said Monday, five days after a gunman killed 17 people at a Florida high school. “There will be marches and demonstrations should they come to Dallas.”
He said he believes in Second Amendment rights and owns five guns but argued NRA officials, if they come to Dallas, should work with local leaders on changing laws to increase gun safety.
“It is time for them to stand up,” Caraway said. “And it's time for us to listen and it's time for Trump and every elected official in Washington and USA on every level to stand up and speak out against this type of violence.”
Not surprised by that at all. Hopefully his days as mayor are numbered. That's a lot of tourist business and money he's letting slip through his hands because he along with a lot of other people can't seem to put the blame where it really lies, with the idiot PODS that committed the crime.
I don't think there's one of us here who wouldn't, and doesn't speak out against this type of violence. They just don't like the fact that we speak out against the person who committed the act, and the failure of all those to stop someone who everyone knew was a walking time bomb.
These people [anti-gunners] really are dumb enough to protest outside a convention where nearly every visitor is armed?
The “butters” always make me laugh.
"But" is a conjunction to link a statement in the second part of a sentence which contradicts or contrasts the first part of the sentence. No matter what comes before the "but," you know what comes after is going to reveal the true character.
I am in full support of the second amendment, but I think only cops and the military should have anything more than a pistol.....
Or, as my wife says..."I am not mad, but....."
skywalkrNCSU
02-20-18, 10:14
These people [anti-gunners] really are dumb enough to protest outside a convention where nearly every visitor is armed?
What are they going to do? Come outside and start shooting protestors?
Duh-waine Caraway is an immoral, racist idiot who dropped out of TSU when he couldn't handle the intellectual workload of that institution. He is only the Mayor Pro Tem, not the elected Mayor of Dallas. Even Dallas residents aren't stupid enough to elect him, though they didn't do much better by choosing Rawlings. If he says he has five guns, I believe him. I'm also sure he had to lay them out and use his fingers to count them.
Dallas is in even worse shape than Houston and is another example of the epic failure of elected democrats at the helm of large cities.
The following is my wife's definition of "but". She says "but" means "disregard everything I just said". I find her definition fits most conversations when it's used.
What are they going to do? Come outside and start shooting protestors?
Heaven’s no. But that’s the logic of anti-gunners. So if they believe guns are dangerous, why protest outside? If they protest outside they just not believe guns are dangerous. It contradicts their platform.
The Mayor has the same mentality as Berkeley. If bad people protest, good people must oblige.
Heaven’s no. But that’s the logic of anti-gunners. So if they believe guns are dangerous, why protest outside? If they protest outside they just not believe guns are dangerous. It contradicts their platform.
The Mayor has the same mentality as Berkeley. If bad people protest, good people must oblige.
Too bad the sheeple will never be able to see this. They're too blind in their "moralistic" rage to see logic. They just want to keep stoking the fires of emotions.
What are they going to do? Come outside and start shooting protestors?
No, but I can imagine these idiots harassing NRA members trying to get inside or leaving and going back to the hotel. Similar to what protesters did to Trump supporters at various rallies. Like the video of the woman being cornered against a closed storefront entrance. I can totally see some self defense shoots happening when some wannabe ANTIFA asshole tries to go after an NRA member with a bike lock.
Averageman
02-20-18, 11:00
The "Mayor Pro Tem" is all I needed to read to understand he would be playing to the audience.
I believe in the 2nd Amendment but I wish it had been written in a manner that better precluded any possibility for opponents to engage in deliberate, agenda-driven "misinterpretations" about it's true meaning and intent.
I believe in the 2nd Amendment but I wish it had been written in a manner that better precluded any possibility for opponents to engage in deliberate, agenda-driven "misinterpretations" about it's true meaning and intent.
What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" is hard to read or understand? It's crystal clear. They only try to make it confusing, but it is not.
What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" is hard to read or understand? It's crystal clear. They only try to make it confusing, but it is not.
No, it's not, but there's apparently enough wiggle room so that idiots can try the "They meant muskets, not assault weapons" and "The People means the States, so they can have the national guard" lines. It would have been nice if the language had been so unambiguous that you could have an easier time arguing that pigs can fly or something. But I guess at the time they wrote it, the founding fathers could never have envisioned how idiotic contemporary American culture would become.
What are they going to do? Come outside and start shooting protestors?
I'm thinking more than a few of them might confront visitors on the way in and start things up the escalation of force ladder. "Some" protestors believe that their right of protest covers anything and everything they might do, including vandalism, assault and arson in relation to that protest.
No, it's not, but there's apparently enough wiggle room so that idiots can try the "They meant muskets, not assault weapons" and "The People means the States, so they can have the national guard" lines. It would have been nice if the language had been so unambiguous that you could have an easier time arguing that pigs can fly or something. But I guess at the time they wrote it, the founding fathers could never have envisioned how idiotic contemporary American culture would become.
Anyone who says they believe in the 2nd Amendment but... doesn't. If you say you believe in the 2nd Amendment, but then go on to tell me why you want to infringe on it, you're a liar. I can and will call you a liar too. You're attempting to commit fraud by pretending to believe something you don't really believe, and I'm not having it. You cannot have an intelligent discussion with an intellectually dishonest person. It's a null set. :(
No, it's not, but there's apparently enough wiggle room so that idiots can try the "They meant muskets, not assault weapons" and "The People means the States, so they can have the national guard" lines. It would have been nice if the language had been so unambiguous that you could have an easier time arguing that pigs can fly or something. But I guess at the time they wrote it, the founding fathers could never have envisioned how idiotic contemporary American culture would become.
There is no language more plain and unambiguous than that for Eminent Domain and it's specific "public use" qualification, but that didn't stop SCOTUS under Bush (43) from ruling that ED could be used for "private use" if it could be shown that it benefits the "public."
The FF could have said "Yes we mean modern military arms comparable to a standing arming including ray guns brought by alien visitors" and it wouldn't matter. The SCOTUS would get together and debate the meaning of the word "modern."
The Consitution even comes with a set of instructions called the Federalist Papers, just in case anyone isn't 100% clear what was meant, and it spells out EXACTLY the intent of the second amendment, but since most people don't know they even exist government has just ignored them and passed laws contrary to the intent and specific wording of both the Constitution and the Federalist Papers almost from the start.
There's also the anti-federalist papers as well. Much wisdom in them as well as a fair amount of accurate prognostication.
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
Jeez, the mayor of Dallas owns 5 guns? Anyone that owns more than 4 guns is a psychopath...
Yep, all you need is a shotgun and a porch. Just ask Joe Biden.
If Dwayne is "mayor pro tem", what happened to the real mayor? permanent, elected mayor? Why is Dwayne assuming the pro tem position? Tell my why Dallas peeps.
dwhitehorne
02-20-18, 15:55
and "The People means the States, .
It’s funny to hear this. When “people” as in all of us read the preamble to the constitution starting with We the People no one ever thinks to refers to the states or the government.
It’s funny to hear this. When “people” as in all of us read the preamble to the constitution starting with We the People no one ever thinks to refers to the states or the government.
Oh come on now, if you were a true constitutional scholar you'd understand that Amendment 2 is obviously a "collective right" while the others are indeed individual rights, because duh, reasons, that's why.
Moose-Knuckle
02-20-18, 18:10
I ponder as to when law abiding card carrying NRA members will be on no-fly lists?
It was Occupy, then BLM, and then Antifa.....I take it now the left's bank rollers will focus their attention on the NRA until they can get enough elected officials to cave on the 2nd.
As for Dallas, not surprised in the least. The DNC has been moving behind the scenes (Battleground Texas) to make the state blue. Texas is pivotal behind CA and in front of NY for electoral college votes. The Dallas County Sheriff (an Hispanic lesbian) recently resigned so she could run as the DNC's choice for governor against Greg Abbott. The City of Dallas made a big deal out of hiring their first female chief of police just last fall.
Even though no one made a stink about a Robert E. Lee monument that the Lee family paid for back in 1936 and then POTUS FDR dedicated the city made a media spectacle out of its removal. Cash strapped Dallas spent $350K of tax payer money to virtue signal.
SeriousStudent
02-20-18, 20:13
If Dwayne is "mayor pro tem", what happened to the real mayor? permanent, elected mayor? Why is Dwayne assuming the pro tem position? Tell my why Dallas peeps.
It's pretty much a ceremonial postion. The Mayor Pro Tem, sits in for the Mayor (Mike Rawlings) during city council meetings or other functions if the Mayor cannot attend.
Basically, Caraway is the senior member of the city council. And if you do a simple web search on how many recent city council members have been investigated by the FBI, indicted, tried and convicted, you'd be amazed he's senior.
I moved out of Dallas because of the rampant corruption. The local tourism office has estimated the NRA convention will bring to Dallas 42 MILLION DOLLARS in tourist spending. Caraway knew the convention was coming here months ago, because the convention center gave the NRA a reduced fee. Which the city council had to approve.
So it's a bit disingenuous at best for Caraway to climb on the bully pulpit and whine about the evil NRA coming to town. He's either incompetent that he did not know they were coming, or he's an opportunist trying to make points about something he knew long ago.
Oh wait - he's a Dallas politician, so it's likely both. :rolleyes:
I escaped to the burbs decades ago, and have not regretted it for a second.
LMT Shooter
02-20-18, 21:04
I posted something remarkably similar to the title of this thread in "Favorite liberal propaganda after shootings?", post #13.
Sorry, I ain't smart enough to post a link.
BuzzinSATX
02-20-18, 21:15
If Dwayne is "mayor pro tem", what happened to the real mayor? permanent, elected mayor? Why is Dwayne assuming the pro tem position? Tell my why Dallas peeps.
This clown is just looking for his pathetic “15 minutes of fame...”
I’m not from Dallas, but here is the rest of the story....
““It is time to put the heat on the NRA and demand that they work with elected officials in our country to establish gun laws that protect our children and keep our communities safe,” he (Carraway) said.
NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said the NRA is coming to Dallas whether Mr. Caraway likes it or not.
“No politician anywhere can tell the NRA not to come to their city,” Mr. Arulanandam told WFAA. “We are already there. Dallas, like every American city and community, is populated by NRA members. Our members work in fire stations and police departments. They save lives in local hospitals and own businesses in communities urban and rural throughout this country.”
*
“They’re constitutionally protected to be in the convention center,” District 13 council member Jennifer Staubach Gates told the station. “It’s a public building. We can’t be in the business to censor who uses that building.”
A spokeswoman for Democratic Mayor Mike Rawlings told the Associated Press that Mr. Caraway is entitled to his opinion, but a contract was signed in 2012 allowing the NRA to use the city’s convention center.”
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/20/dwaine-caraway-dallas-mayor-pro-tem-asks-nra-conve/
Averageman
02-20-18, 22:15
So let's see,
Dallas can elect a new Mayor Pro Tem or
receive 42 million in revenue via the NRA.
I predict a short career for this guy, longevity isn't for those willing to fall on thier sword based on decisions made emotionally and in haste.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 07:53
First let me say this isn't another thread for debate on the topic of bump stocks, purchase age, etc. That's been covered enough as it is.
Most of us agree ceding any point to the left, no matter how small, is a mistake. Since this isn't going to happen legislatively, how do we fight it? Petitions and emails? Legal challenges to ATF "determinations"? We have a collection of very intelligent people here, let's come up with some workable ideas.
crusader377
02-21-18, 08:04
I think we have to reach out to people on the individual level and educate people on why we have a Second Amendment. Have a guy or gal in your office that doesn't have an opinion on guns or even a liberal, invite them out to the range etc....The challenge is the left has a 24/7 propaganda machine and reaching out to people individually are the only way that we can counter that.
many of you saying "I don't care about bumpstocks" do NOT get IT
a long experienced former ATF analyst says that the ONLY ways to "ban" these devices will be to either change the definition of a machine gun or to add a definition of rate of fire.
In many experts opinions as with this former ATF analyst, creating a definition of "maximum rate of fire" will be a de facto ban on all semi-auto "devices" and lever actions and pump actions.
Basically any firearm that has any design that "allows" a higher rate of fire than their set maximum is banned/restricted etc.
We need to make our voices heard - petition the whitehouse directly on this. Who else is willing to sign?
NO further infringements
Use Logic- Is this really about saving lives?
If people TRULY wanted to "save lives" there are many other devices/items that can be banned that are not protected by the constitution.
For example, They banned lawn darts, why not Ban Swimming Pools?
If politicians TRULY wanted to save lives- here's something they ALL can do:
GIVE UP 10 CENTS on the dollar of their Government provided, tax payer revenue sourced benefits such as Vacation, golfing, private security and give that to a central fund that pays for school security marshals.
Politicians that balk at this should be ashamed that they don't care enough to give TEN CENTS to save the Children!
Also - Trump could simply mobilize the reserve units to protect public schools Right NOW
It's pretty much a ceremonial postion. The Mayor Pro Tem, sits in for the Mayor (Mike Rawlings) during city council meetings or other functions if the Mayor cannot attend.
.
So Dallas still has a real elected mayor and nothing happened to him, with him, etc. and Dwayne was just taking his moment in the spot light to mouth of. I did google "Dallas mayor" and Mike Rawlings came up.
A mixture of individual education.
We also, as a group, need to have the dickish folks just stop. If you can't stop yourself from stooping to personal attacks against people who disagree, get off the soap box. It just continues to add fuel to the fire.
I try to approach everyone with a coy, moderate sarcasm, and ultimately voice that my main concern is that people have a basic understanding of their opposition of thought and put some statistical data behind your opinions instead of just the feels.
When this crap happens, I get a little scared, hurt, angry (if not clenching my teeth and hoping the POS is a PODS), and I know and understand that my feels.
If the world was perfect, and we really could have no guns, great. I would be happy to live in that world. Unfortunately, trying to act like our planet could ever achieve that level is futile and simply self destructive.
I know, in my core, I would pick up my rifle and red dawn some mofos the moment it came down to it; at least try to keep our home OURS. I hope it never does, but knowing that I have the opportunity to protect my family and what is mine, is worth a lot. How many anti-gunners would be willing to put their lives on the line for everyone in this country if it really came down to it?
The fundamental understanding of evil needs to be recognized and understood that we ARE NOT above it. We NEVER will be. No society is immune from it, it is not something societies grow out of. We can ignore it, and act like our country is "Beyond All That" But, in all reality, we're barely 200 years old. We're a country that was founded on specific principles as those founding fathers had 4000 years of history of what worked and didn't.
The foundation we built wasn't just some proxy war, cold war bullshit. People, our ancestors, suffered, sweat, and bled on the battlefield against an oppressive government who wanted to make them subhuman.
Let's not give our own government the same ability we fought for no one to have over us. Over WE THE PEOPLE.
Beyond education on a personal level, give up with the lost causes. Don't waste your breath, stay calm, level headed, and hit them with stats and facts every step of the way. Make them stoop to a level that is obvious they're just emotionally fueled. Than, pull that emotional fuel card and advise them that it's obvious emotions and feels run them instead of actually thinking about it, or they would agree that there is some basis to the argument even if they don't agree.
Beyond that, we need to write and call. All Reps, All Offices, Even the Oval.
We got Faked News by the caller of Fake News. He made a promise that is, obviously, not being kept. Call him out on it.
Can't say this will help change anything with bump stocks, but when it comes to a full on ban, we also need a true foundation.
If it gets bad enough, I have considered compiling a list of pro 2nd states that touch borders, propose a petition for all to sign voicing support for a secession if the feds try to pull a true firearms ban. While I highly doubt it would ever happen, if we could find a hell of a lot of folks willing to sign to take a stand that divides the country with a "true-border" sure would open some eyes. Aim for a core residential signature basis and anyone else around the nation who would consider migrating to another place in our country to leave tyranny.
My rep and senator are pretty pro-2A. So, I do nothing. In this supercharged volatile environment, I am not going to paint my self as a target on social media. But I do preach pro-2A as much as I can otherwise.
Doc Safari
02-21-18, 10:05
I don't in any way want to negate the pain and fear people experience because of the school shootings.
Having said that, as soon as these whiny little snowflakes realize that they they are too young to vote and therefore don't amount to a hill of feces to a Congressman or Senator, they will fade into the background.
Sure, some permanent and dedicated activists have been created, and who knows how much of this is being stirred up by the organized and well-funded left, but "I Was a Teenage Gun Grabber" will fade quickly from the box office, replaced by a blockbuster movie called "We Demand the Right To Defend Ourselves."
I don't in any way want to negate the pain and fear people experience because of the school shootings.
Having said that, as soon as these whiny little snowflakes realize that they they are too young to vote and therefore don't amount to a hill of feces to a Congressman or Senator, they will fade into the background.
Sure, some permanent and dedicated activists have been created, and who knows how much of this is being stirred up by the organized and well-funded left, but "I Was a Teenage Gun Grabber" will fade quickly from the box office, replaced by a blockbuster movie called "We Demand the Right To Defend Ourselves."
Ultimately, I remember how close I was to being a leftist.
I was anti-flag, I didn't stand for the anthem or pledge. I didn't honor our country as I had felt it had let me down.
In many ways, our children are let down, but so many grow out of being facking stupid. I did; mostly. Especially when I stopped and asked myself: At only 17 years old, how in the hell has our country directly let ME down enough to justify the way I am treating out flag, our soldiers, our vets, our police, our firefighters. It was foolish.
I now stand proudly, hand over heart, and I know that I am thankful everyday for living in country that let me be so disrespectful to them, that I have the freedom to do so without being jailed, shot, or maimed; that understanding is one of the core reasons I realized our country was so amazing. That every day in this beautiful America is better than a lot of the others.
The scariest, was hearing how a childhood friend of mine who grew up in a house full of guns, I grew up where our house had none but family did, and grew up to a military fathers/uncles/grandparents, but turned Anti-Gun. We were talking after one of the shootings and how he felt ARs were not needed and that handguns were scary because he never knew if someone was carrying one. I was at the time. I had realized that while, he knew I was a firearms activist, that he had no idea I had been carrying a firearm for almost two years straight daily.
When I got him over to the home range, I broke out the AR15s, handguns, and I didn't pressure him. By the time he left, he had a lot of fun and had a much better understanding. He said it still worried him, but he couldn't see much difference between using an AR15 or his dad's .30-06 BAR; in the long scope of things. When we were done and enjoying a cold one, we talked about how I have been carrying regularly for over 25 months at that point. He didn't say much, but kind of shrugged and said: "Good, I know I will feel a lot safer when I am out with you."
It was all that came of it, and he hasn't posted any anti-gun rhetoric, or seemed to take their side as of yet. Even recently.
It's these types of "on-the-fencer" situations we need to identify and provide education.
First let me say this isn't another thread for debate on the topic of bump stocks, purchase age, etc. That's been covered enough as it is.
Most of us agree ceding any point to the left, no matter how small, is a mistake. Since this isn't going to happen legislatively, how do we fight it? Petitions and emails? Legal challenges to ATF "determinations"? We have a collection of very intelligent people here, let's come up with some workable ideas.
Honestly, we need to protest longer, harder, and be more visible doing so. We're terrible at it. Look at the protests in Tallahassee. Where are we at? What have we been doing? Just the normal pissing and moaning on the interwebz like we always do. They look like they're organized, and sadly we do not. A lot of life is perception, and right now they're the ones out there looking like they have everyone behind them.
Then we have half of our numbers wanting to cave in even more because they think it's "not worth the fight, no one should own one, it's a FUDD device, or standing for this will not help our cause in the long run".
I'm sick of saying it, and I guess it's never going to sink in. This is about freedom. Nothing more, and nothing less. We either have it, or we don't.
Personally, I could care less, and pretty damn sick and tired of the half that just wants to roll over and cave in. I'm getting damn sick of our disorganization. Hell, even the Gun Owners of America is pretty much clammed up right now, and the NRA is looking like a bunch of friggin' chumps right now. We're being out grass rooted, and it's showing, BADLY!!!
Honestly, we don't give one inch... A-holes will be a-holes and the FBI really managed to drop the damned ball on this one. Everything was in place to prevent this kid from acting out his sick and twisted fantasy, and the authorities were warned of the danger he represented in advance. He could easily have been charged with a crime for his postings and perhaps now there will be protocols in place to prevent future issues, but the kid broke an existing law. YES, free speech must be protected, but I stated "charged with a crime," just look at Watts v USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_threat). People have their day in court, and can show either scorn or remorse for their remarks threatening others, and perhaps go on to live a better life. People turn their lives around every day.
On the day of the shooting far more people in America died in car accidents, waiting for an organ transplant, etc... Some days it's far more dangerous to live in the city of Chicago. Sadly, innocent people will continue to die on a daily basis for a variety of preventable reasons. This is the world in which we live, and abridging the rights of several hundred million people to quell the temporary feelings of unease from others isn't how we need to be living our lives.
I write my elected officials and let them know that campaign contributions and votes are predicated on representing my views. I do what I can to educate others on the fence about just how "common sense" our existing laws are, and the failings in the system that occurred along the way, which could have possibly prevented this. I tune out the chimp-screamers who would rally for gun control at any cost. There is no amount of debate nor fact which will sway them, and I only have somewhere between zero and eighty years left on this earth. I'd rather enjoy most of them than waste my time at attempting to convert the unconvertible.
You cannot negotiate or reason with the Leftist Mind. They already know their point of view is superior to yours, and when you provide facts and statistics, they just deny or criticize what you're doing and resort to an emotional stance. You could show them that with 2016 FBI statistics, out of @ 38,000 gun deaths, only 11,004 were murders. The rest were suicides. You could show them that in 2016, 374 murders were done with rifles, while 1604 murders were done with knives and sharp objects. They don't care. They're agenda is on auto-pilot and nothing will stop it.
You cannot negotiate or reason with the Leftist Mind. They already know their point of view is superior to yours, and when you provide facts and statistics, they just deny or criticize what you're doing and resort to an emotional stance. You could show them that with 2016 FBI statistics, out of @ 38,000 gun deaths, only 11,004 were murders. The rest were suicides. You could show them that in 2016, 374 murders were done with rifles, while 1604 murders were done with knives and sharp objects. They don't care. They're agenda is on auto-pilot and nothing will stop it.
While I agree with your sentiment, I have found that there are relatively few super leftist, leaving a whole bunch of folks in the middle that we can reach. One of the key points we teach in hunter education is that roughly 10% of the population consider themselves hunters and about 10% of the country is vehemently anti-hunting. What is left is 80% of Americans that could go either way. I think that firearms are the same way. All we need to do is convince 60% of the 80% that guns are o.k. and we have the votes.
I employ three people that openly identify with more liberal politics. They are hard working, honest, and treat me with the utmost respect. All three of them are also pro-gun and are slowly being brought over to the fiscal conservative side. In fact, some of them are (in my opinion) more vocally pro-gun than some members I have debated here in General. They are sickened by the feeling that their party (the Dems) have abandoned them much the way some of us feel abandoned by the Republicans. People like them are ripe for the picking if you can identify them and treat them with respect.
This is a fight that will never end. Regardless of the laws passed or SCOTUS decisions handed down. We will always try to keep our guns and the Left will always try to take them. The only way this ends is if one group eliminates the other by force.
Honestly, we need to protest longer, harder, and be more visible doing so. We're terrible at it. Look at the protests in Tallahassee. Where are we at? What have we been doing? Just the normal pissing and moaning on the interwebz like we always do. They look like they're organized, and sadly we do not. A lot of life is perception, and right now they're the ones out there looking like they have everyone behind them.
Then we have half of our numbers wanting to cave in even more because they think it's "not worth the fight, no one should own one, it's a FUDD device, or standing for this will not help our cause in the long run".
I'm sick of saying it, and I guess it's never going to sink in. This is about freedom. Nothing more, and nothing less. We either have it, or we don't.
Personally, I could care less, and pretty damn sick and tired of the half that just wants to roll over and cave in. I'm getting damn sick of our disorganization. Hell, even the Gun Owners of America is pretty much clammed up right now, and the NRA is looking like a bunch of friggin' chumps right now. We're being out grass rooted, and it's showing, BADLY!!!
It's easy when their "Grass Roots" are 18-25 somethings that are let out of universities for the "interest of public political action", unemployed/part time employed, and/or work as something like a "librarian" or "in a band". when most average joes working day in and out don't get to attend a rally at 10AM on a Monday because: we effin work.
In the town I live in, the most politically active person I know (that's from my graduating class, whom didn't graduate with us) works 5-20 hours a week, lives at the random shelters/couch hops with her supportees, and claims to be more "woke" than a hungry-needing-to-be-changed newborn at 3am. But, I guess if I spent more time on Facebook spamming anti-next-righteous-topic memes, organizing these 20 person anti-trump rallies (in a town of nearly 100k) in our protesting square, I might feel that way too.
So, if I could afford to give up what I have earned to not care about having a roof over my head, I might try being a "career activist".
RetroRevolver77
02-21-18, 12:31
50678
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 12:34
This is a fight that will never end. Regardless of the laws passed or SCOTUS decisions handed down. We will always try to keep our guns and the Left will always try to take them. The only way this ends is if one group eliminates the other by force.
Every time the left bans something people want or hold dear we take another step in that direction. I've said it before, but if I'm going to be a felon for one thing I might as well be a felon for everything.
I think in terms of fighting we need a new organization to represent our interests. The NRA is too soft, too concerned with hunting and too greedy. We need people with PR and legal experience going toe to toe each and every time even incremental rights are threatened. Like the ACLU but for guns.
While I agree with your sentiment, I have found that there are relatively few super leftist, leaving a whole bunch of folks in the middle that we can reach. One of the key points we teach in hunter education is that roughly 10% of the population consider themselves hunters and about 10% of the country is vehemently anti-hunting. What is left is 80% of Americans that could go either way. I think that firearms are the same way. All we need to do is convince 60% of the 80% that guns are o.k. and we have the votes.
I employ three people that openly identify with more liberal politics. They are hard working, honest, and treat me with the utmost respect. All three of them are also pro-gun and are slowly being brought over to the fiscal conservative side. In fact, some of them are (in my opinion) more vocally pro-gun than some members I have debated here in General. They are sickened by the feeling that their party (the Dems) have abandoned them much the way some of us feel abandoned by the Republicans. People like them are ripe for the picking if you can identify them and treat them with respect.
I live in a part of the US where everyone is either pro-gun, or anti-gun. No in between. I have some kind of weapon on me at all times, mainly for predator control, or when I go to Albuquerque and have to deal with two-legged predators. Your urban areas, which mostly went for Bill Clinton's wife, are large voting blocks, and lots of anti-gun people. You may win a few over, but most are mindless drones listening to what CNN's Anderson Cooper has to say and his hand-picked panel of experts. Change the channel to Lester Dolt on NBC and you'll see more tear-jerking optics.
We are losing the argument because we don't have the Big Megaphone, and our champions in Congress are spineless. You can't hold up your Colt 6920 during an interview and say it's your right to own it, when you've got sobbing children on TV mourning their murdered peers. It's all about optics, not substance. Fluff and well edited video on TV always win the day.
It's been a matter of time for all of this to hit the fan, and I think it's the beginning of a new AWB; probably at State level but perhaps some form at the Federal level. These State level bans could even include banning possession.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 12:44
We also need a new political party. The Republicans are going to get utterly destroyed at the polls if this goes through, immigration fails and Hillary isn't in prison. Might be the perfect time to push libertarian candidates really hard.
We also need a new political party. The Republicans are going to get utterly destroyed at the polls if this goes through, immigration fails and Hillary isn't in prison. Might be the perfect time to push libertarian candidates really hard.
But have you noticed that some of the Libertarians are many times Democrat-Lite? Rand Paul is not the last word when it comes to Libertarian platforms.
First you have to identify whether the person you're dealing with is a propagandist, or a consumer of propaganda. Just because someone is parroting the propaganda, doesn't mean they're not a victim of it. If they're a victim, try to deprogram them and help them understand the lies they've been told. If they're a propagandist, you can't do anything with them except make them look like the fools they are.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 12:56
But have you noticed that some of the Libertarians are many times Democrat-Lite? Rand Paul is not the last word when it comes to Libertarian platforms.
I have, what I mean by libertarians are true libertarians. Small government, less regulations, lower taxes. Most people, particularly in my age group, identify more with those principles than either of the current parties.
It's easy when their "Grass Roots" are 18-25 somethings that are let out of universities for the "interest of public political action", unemployed/part time employed, and/or work as something like a "librarian" or "in a band". when most average joes working day in and out don't get to attend a rally at 10AM on a Monday because: we effin work.
In the town I live in, the most politically active person I know (that's from my graduating class, whom didn't graduate with us) works 5-20 hours a week, lives at the random shelters/couch hops with her supportees, and claims to be more "woke" than a hungry-needing-to-be-changed newborn at 3am. But, I guess if I spent more time on Facebook spamming anti-next-righteous-topic memes, organizing these 20 person anti-trump rallies (in a town of nearly 100k) in our protesting square, I might feel that way too.
So, if I could afford to give up what I have earned to not care about having a roof over my head, I might try being a "career activist".
You know, that's a good point.
We also need a new political party. The Republicans are going to get utterly destroyed at the polls if this goes through, immigration fails and Hillary isn't in prison. Might be the perfect time to push libertarian candidates really hard.
This is damn true too. I sure wish the Tea Party would really take off myself.
Every time the left bans something people want or hold dear we take another step in that direction. I've said it before, but if I'm going to be a felon for one thing I might as well be a felon for everything.
I think in terms of fighting we need a new organization to represent our interests. The NRA is too soft, too concerned with hunting and too greedy. We need people with PR and legal experience going toe to toe each and every time even incremental rights are threatened. Like the ACLU but for guns.
This is a friggin' good point too! I like the Gun Owners of America, but even they've been pretty silent the past week or so. I hammer my representatives every week over this issue and others. Hopefully every one of us are contacting our representatives about these issues.
I e-mailed the NRA after their press release about bump stocks after Vegas. I've never once received a reply from them over it. Now, they'll e-mail me ten times a week, and call my house several times a week looking for more handout money, but they won't even dignify my e-mail to them. Once my membership expires next year it's the last time they ever get any money from me. They need to pull out the hardball stronger than they did after Sandy Hook.
It pisses me off to no end that guns are blamed again, yet the Fearless Band of Idiots dropped the ball not once, but twice on the PODS. Then we have over 30 contacts by the local police with this PODS, but no one flags him as mentally unstable and a danger to himself and others? A lot of people failed, but the gun owners aren't among them. That's the slap in the face to me. We get blamed like we always do.
Averageman
02-21-18, 14:41
People aren't holding local and federal law enforcement agencies or the school accountable.
If you've made thirty visits to a home, If you have a student carrying a backpack with racially insulting and fight provoking slurs emblazoned on it, If your FBI gets a warning about a possible school shooting and the guy makes it in to the school and shots it up, you failed.
A lot of failure happen for this to take place and the fate of those who failed must have consequences.
The whole idea that no one could protect these students, but they can overnight organise a protest is intellectually insulting to everyone in America.
Doc Safari
02-21-18, 14:43
If the whiny little snowflake liberal skulls full of horseshit had any sense they would be protesting the FBI's lack of action on this and other shootings.
Of course, that wouldn't jibe with the liberal community organizing tactics, would it?
If the whiny little snowflake liberal skulls full of horseshit had any sense they would be protesting the FBI's lack of action on this and other shootings.
Of course, that wouldn't jibe with the liberal community organizing tactics, would it?
And all the local authorities who knew he was going to cook off at some point. There's plenty of fault to go around and not a bit of it is because of gun laws. :(
First let me say this isn't another thread for debate on the topic of bump stocks, purchase age, etc. That's been covered enough as it is.
Most of us agree ceding any point to the left, no matter how small, is a mistake. Since this isn't going to happen legislatively, how do we fight it? Petitions and emails? Legal challenges to ATF "determinations"? We have a collection of very intelligent people here, let's come up with some workable ideas.
Sporter clause, strike it. Offer to trade it for bump stocks and then watch as the basis for regulating bump stocks evaporates.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 17:01
Sporter clause, strike it. Offer to trade it for bump stocks and then watch as the basis for regulating bump stocks evaporates.
But we can't negotiate anything unless things go the legislative route. As it stands we're just getting screwed.
We didn't need the FBI to figure this out. The school system knew or should have known he was a danger.
This was not a gun problem, this was an individual problem.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 17:34
We didn't need the FBI to figure this out. The school system knew or should have known he was a danger.
This was not a gun problem, this was an individual problem.
Let's stay on track here. That point has been well discussed in the other thread.
I'm saying the school should have moved his problem behavior in to the criminal system.
So we should back a law to make it mandatory for the school to report threats and violence. Rack up enough points you get into the juvenile system.
Outlander Systems
02-21-18, 18:26
Simple. Sensible. Elegant.
Hear, hear.
I'm saying the school should have moved his problem behavior in to the criminal system.
So we should back a law to make it mandatory for the school to report threats and violence. Rack up enough points you get into the juvenile system.
Then they can choose, charged as an adult or probation + finish HS + mental heath until 21.
Either way prohibited until 21 at the least.
Phillygunguy
02-21-18, 18:39
I think we need Trump to know if any ban goes into effect he's toast. I think it's rather ironic that we were able to survive with Obama for 8 years and we're going to be screwed by Trump. Sad
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 18:55
I'm saying the school should have moved his problem behavior in to the criminal system.
So we should back a law to make it mandatory for the school to report threats and violence. Rack up enough points you get into the juvenile system.
Now that is a solution I think people could get behind. I'd suggest sending that to your representatives, the NRA, GOA etc.
Dist. Expert 26
02-21-18, 18:56
I think we need Trump to know if any ban goes into effect he's toast. I think it's rather ironic that we were able to survive with Obama for 8 years and we're going to be screwed by Trump. Sad
I'm not sure he cares. His life was probably a lot more fun prior to getting into politics, he doesn't need the money or influence either.
I think we need Trump to know if any ban goes into effect he's toast. I think it's rather ironic that we were able to survive with Obama for 8 years and we're going to be screwed by Trump. Sad
THIS X10000000
Averageman
02-21-18, 19:03
We didn't need the FBI to figure this out. The school system knew or should have known he was a danger.
This was not a gun problem, this was an individual problem.
The School Administration (not the Teachers) don't want to bring Law Enforcement in to it. It scares the kids and then parents start calling, in their opinion it turns in to a basket of vipers.
Never mind the consequences, they have a career to look out for.
This is another reason to bring in a security team, they shouldn't answer directly to the Principal. Assaults get reported, weapons get found at the door and a lot of stuff that goes on in schools stops
SeriousStudent
02-21-18, 19:33
So Dallas still has a real elected mayor and nothing happened to him, with him, etc. and Dwayne was just taking his moment in the spot light to mouth of. I did google "Dallas mayor" and Mike Rawlings came up.
Correct.
The School Administration (not the Teachers) don't want to bring Law Enforcement in to it.
So it should be mandatory reporting like signs of abuse.
I think we need Trump to know if any ban goes into effect he's toast. I think it's rather ironic that we were able to survive with Obama for 8 years and we're going to be screwed by Trump. Sad
Well the problem is, NRA asked him to ban bump stocks. So like Reagan in 86, he thinks he has the greenlight from gun owners.
Phillygunguy
02-21-18, 22:30
Well the problem is, NRA asked him to ban bump stocks. So like Reagan in 86, he thinks he has the greenlight from gun owners.
Yeah the NRA needs to clean its house
Yeah the NRA needs to clean its house
I spent a half hour today on the phone with my NRA rep. We work together through the Friends of NRA and have become friends over the years. In 5 years my wife and I have raised over $150,000 for the FNRA. And while the FNRA is the non-profit, non-political side of the NRA, they are inseparable in the eyes of the people I fundraise from. People around me are VERY unhappy with what is going on at the NRA and have pretty much said they are withholding from donating even to the FNRA until this all gets straightened out. I went as far as telling him I'm taking a year off and will reevaluate at the end of the year.
Phillygunguy
02-21-18, 23:38
I spent a half hour today on the phone with my NRA rep. We work together through the Friends of NRA and have become friends over the years. In 5 years my wife and I have raised over $150,000 for the FNRA. And while the FNRA is the non-profit, non-political side of the NRA, they are inseparable in the eyes of the people I fundraise from. People around me are VERY unhappy with what is going on at the NRA and have pretty much said they are withholding from donating even to the FNRA until this all gets straightened out. I went as far as telling him I'm taking a year off and will reevaluate at the end of the year.
Good for you. They constantly hound us for money and don't do shit right. If they don't get rid of Marion Hammer and the likes of her and put good guys like Adam Kraut on the BOD, then it's time to abandon ship and go all in GOA
The School Administration (not the Teachers) don't want to bring Law Enforcement in to it. It scares the kids and then parents start calling, in their opinion it turns in to a basket of vipers.
Never mind the consequences, they have a career to look out for.
This is another reason to bring in a security team, they shouldn't answer directly to the Principal. Assaults get reported, weapons get found at the door and a lot of stuff that goes on in schools stops
So how does an obstruction of justice charge and criminal malfeasance affect their careers? Because if I was a DA or CLEO looking at this particular basket of vipers, I'd be hanging paper on school officials until they thought they were in a ticker tape parade!
I tell my RP's that we can work almost anything out at the local level, so long as they keep me informed and we do the work. But once we're on CNN as the lead story? It's over. Then we have to play by the script and that script sucks for everyone.
So I hope the district plans to empanel a Grand Jury and IA is working over everyone with a fingerprint on this debacle, and I hope warrants are being drawn up for all the school records because someone needs to pay for this, and it's damn sure not law abiding gun owners! :(
Dist. Expert 26
02-22-18, 18:41
Rather than resign ourselves to defeat, let's (try) to put the advocacy organizations to work.
https://www.nraila.org/contact-nra-ila/
http://gunowners.net/cgi-bin/ttx.cgi?cmd=newticket
https://www.nationalgunrights.org/contact-us
Feel free to add to the list.
Texas has been Californiated like Oregon, Washington and soon Idaho.
Thanks. Already emailed my reps. These are next on the list
Rather than resign ourselves to defeat, let's (try) to put the advocacy organizations to work.
https://www.nraila.org/contact-nra-ila/
http://gunowners.net/cgi-bin/ttx.cgi?cmd=newticket
https://www.nationalgunrights.org/contact-us
Feel free to add to the list.
Good post. I e-mail my reps several times a month on different issues. Gotta let them know how we feel.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/
https://www.sheriff.org/Pages/Contact-Us.aspx
Another GOA for the "to do" list.
https://www.gunowners.org/important-call-trump-to-oppose-bump-stock-ban-other-gun-controls.htm
Texas has been Californiated like Oregon, Washington and soon Idaho.
Why do you say Idaho...what's going on there?
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