View Full Version : Which lower?
Last year I built a 6.5 Grendel upper and presently it shares time on my Armalite lower with my 5.56 upper. I want to build a dedicated lower for my Grendel and later might add a BCM upper as well. My LGS only carries Spike’s and Anderson stripped lowers. Does it really matter the name on the lower?
I want this lower to be milspec so I am prepared to do it right, l just would prefer to buy locally if possible. Any suggestions and insight would be greatly appreciated.
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Just my $0.02.... but a mil spec lower is a milspec lower ... Buy the cheapest one u can find ...as long as it truly IS milspec. That said if your looking for a specific fancy feature then all bets are off. For example aero has a set crew in thier lowers that help tighten the upper to lower fit also their new lowers have a set screw to hold in the bolt catch, instead of a pin. Man I can NEVER not bugger up the finish when I put that same bolt catch in.
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redpillregret
02-22-18, 11:59
Just my $0.02.... but a mil spec lower is a milspec lower ... Buy the cheapest one u can find ...as long as it truly IS milspec. That said if your looking for a specific fancy feature then all bets are off. For example aero has a set crew in thier lowers that help tighten the upper to lower fit also their new lowers have a set screw to hold in the bolt catch, instead of a pin. Man I can NEVER not bugger up the finish when I put that same bolt catch in.
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I have had many “milepec” lowers that Colt lower parts wouldn’t fit and bargain brand lowers that were very out of spec. With today’s blem BCM lowers and Colts from Brownell’s, I can think of no reason to assembly my own lower. You won’t save much of anything and won’t improve on quality.
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Just my $0.02.... but a mil spec lower is a milspec lower ... Buy the cheapest one u can find ...as long as it truly IS milspec. That said if your looking for a specific fancy feature then all bets are off. For example aero has a set crew in thier lowers that help tighten the upper to lower fit also their new lowers have a set screw to hold in the bolt catch, instead of a pin. Man I can NEVER not bugger up the finish when I put that same bolt catch in.
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No, just... No.
I know this your 3rd post, welcome to M4C, I will be polite about it:
That's not accurate. Far, Far, FAR, from it. Please make sure to read the commentary that follows in this thread. I am sure you will tagged in many replies. Hopefully none are bad. But, that's not usually the case.
ETA: Also, on the topic of hammering in the Bolt Hold Open pin, I take masking tape/painters tape (electrical tape has worked well but it's not as wide as the blue painter's rolls) layer it on the side of the lower, set the lower on it's nose, use needlenose and hold the pin. Give it a few light taps til it starts, and whack it in. If I hit the tape, no harm no foul. Any residue is taken off with a little solvent, if even needed.
Last year I built a 6.5 Grendel upper and presently it shares time on my Armalite lower with my 5.56 upper. I want to build a dedicated lower for my Grendel and later might add a BCM upper as well. My LGS only carries Spike’s and Anderson stripped lowers. Does it really matter the name on the lower?
I want this lower to be milspec so I am prepared to do it right, l just would prefer to buy locally if possible. Any suggestions and insight would be greatly appreciated.
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I have run a few different types of lowers. Anderson is considered one of the lowest grade "Mil-Spec" but you will have a failure rate in some Andersons. I have built out 4 and none of them had issues, but I know a couple friends who did have issues with their pins. One had out of spec takedown pin holes, another had an out of spec Bolt Hold Open slot to far back.
Aero has been known to give good products, with decent customer service at a competitive cost.
BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, all great options but pricing tends to be high with these ones.
I had seen brownells has complete Colt "M4" lowers at times for around 239-250 shipped; at least I see Mike at Mr.GunsnGear posting them occasionally.
Overall, just make sure you go with something quality if you don't want to run a slightly higher risk of something being out of spec. I know Buds had some AR57 stripped lowers. They stripped out all the guns, sold the LPKs, uppers, and mags separately. They have a ton of "open-eared" lowers marked with the 57 that work just fine. Last time I checked they did anyways.
No, just... No.
I know this your 3rd post, welcome to M4C, I will be polite about it:
That's not accurate. Far, Far, FAR, from it. Please make sure to read the commentary that follows in this thread. I am sure you will tagged in many replies. Hopefully none are bad. But, that's not usually the case.Please enlighten me then. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have built 4 ARs. 1 franken gun on an rguns lower, one on a pro-fab set, and 2 Anderson sets. I didn't have an issue with any of them. All function well and do what I need them to do. I see no reason to spend $100+ for a lower when a $40 lower will do.
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I have had many “milepec” lowers that Colt lower parts wouldn’t fit and bargain brand lowers that were very out of spec. With today’s blem BCM lowers and Colts from Brownell’s, I can think of no reason to assembly my own lower. You won’t save much of anything and won’t improve on quality.
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This has been my experience as well. When buying bargain basement lowers you are taking a chance and hoping they will be in-spec "enough" to assemble and function correctly. By spending a little more you are buying higher quality control standards and usually better customer service in the event there is an issue with the lower.
I've probably assembled or helped others assemble close to 70 rifles in the last couple of years. I've seen spec issues on Anderson lowers more than anything else, but also with Noreen lowers, Palmetto State Armory, a few Aero Precision lowers (all during the run up to the 2016 Election and they were quick to make it right, but they never should have been shipped to begin with), and even a few Alexander Arms lowers.
Please enlighten me then. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have built 4 ARs. 1 franken gun on an rguns lower, one on a pro-fab set, and 2 Anderson sets. I didn't have an issue with any of them. All function well and do what I need them to do. I see no reason to spend $100+ for a lower when a $40 lower will do.
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The difference is the 33% failure rate in my anecdotal evidence provided in the post above.
Just my personal experience with Anderson in general. It's not supported by just mine, but many others. If you're cool with your 40$ lower, that's cool. I am okay with mine as well.
But, I don't fool myself into thinking: "Anderson is just as good." With a witnessed 33% failure rate.
ETA: I should also add, it's the whole: "I don't see the reason..." argument that leaves newbies to M4C in a very booty hurt place after those who understand this concept start chiming in and we have 3-4 pages of people making arguments against you and wondering why you are combative about a simple concept: We're not saying your lower that is working sucks, or is bad, or doesn't work, or that you're a bad person for buying it. Again: We just don't fool ourselves.
The difference is the 33% failure rate in my anecdotal evidence provided in the post above.
Just my personal experience with Anderson in general. It's not supported by just mine, but many others. If you're cool with your 40$ lower, that's cool. I am okay with mine as well.
But, I don't fool myself into thinking: "Anderson is just as good." With a witnessed 33% failure rate.I'm not doubting you, and as I said I'm no expert. But beyond being out of spec what would you be including in a failure rate?
Again in my limited experience, I haven't gotten one that out of spec and they are all 7075 t6 aluminum. I really don't see the need to spend an extra $60+
Obviously if it's an out of spec receiver the retailer or manufacturer would take it back and give you a new one. If there is some other failure (catastrophic failure, etc) well that might be more diffult to nail down the cause....ammo, metal fatigue, some other part.
All I said was all things being equal and genuine milspec.... I see no reason to spend the extra money on some "name brand"
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Thank you for the responses and keep them coming. I had already pretty much eliminated Anderson, but I’m still curious about people’s results with Spike’s. Even though I haven’t posted much here I am not a newb. I recently retired as an infantryman and have been a gun guy my whole life.
The reason I posed this question is because I’ve read that most upper and lower receivers are made by just a few suppliers and then company logos are engraved. Please correct me if this is false. Also I was hoping to avoid the hassle of buying online and finding an FFL to do the transfer.
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Obviously if it's an out of spec receiver the retailer or manufacturer would take it back and give you a new one.
Sometimes getting a manufacturer to take back a budget lower is easier said than done, and you're still out multiple transfer fees if you're buying online, not to mention the potential wait time and frustration of dealing with the whole thing.
All I said was all things being equal and genuine milspec.... I see no reason to spend the extra money on some "name brand"
I think the point you're missing is that just because a $40 lower is described as "milspec" by the manufacturer that doesn't necessarily make it so. In other words, you aren't guaranteed the "all things being equal" assumption that you are making. With a small sample size you may get lucky and never have an issue. But also realize with a more expensive receiver you are generally paying for more than just a roll mark or "name brand." You are also paying for a higher standard of QC and often a better ano, better attention to detail during machining, etc.
Sometimes getting a manufacturer to take back a budget lower is easier said than done, and you're still out multiple transfer fees if you're buying online, not to mention the potential wait time and frustration of dealing with the whole thing.
I think the point you're missing is that just because a $40 lower is described as "milspec" by the manufacturer that doesn't necessarily make it so. In other words, you aren't guaranteed the "all things being equal" assumption that you are making. With a small sample size you may get lucky and never have an issue. But also realize with a more expensive receiver you are generally paying for more than just a roll mark or "name brand." You are also paying for a higher standard of QC and often a better ano, better attention to detail during machining, etc.I would agree to both of your points. I'm just unsure that's worth the extra $$$.... Again just my humble non expert opinion.
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I would agree to both of your points. I'm just unsure that's worth the extra $$$.... Again just my humble non expert opinion.
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It's your $$, spend it how you please. I just think it's important that folks understand what they are paying for and why that $40 budget lower is so cheap. And that they might be taking a risk in return for saving some cash.
OP here, the Anderson is $40 and the Spike’s is $100. Is there a jump in quality here or just price? Anderson is officially off my list by the way. Thanks.
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OP here, the Anderson is $40 and the Spike’s is $100. Is there a jump in quality here or just price? Anderson is officially off my list by the way. Thanks.
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IMO Spikes lowers are just fine, as long as you can find one with markings that you like. I haven't seen the sort of issues with them that I've seen with Anderson's or other cheap lowers, and in my experience they are usually pretty on the ball as far as customer service is concerned.
I have a Spike's with no issues. That being said, take a look at Aero Precision. Nice lowers and based my locale are cheaper delivered than the Spikes last time I checked.
I have a Spike's with no issues. That being said, take a look at Aero Precision. Nice lowers and based my locale are cheaper delivered than the Spikes last time I checked.
I used an Aero upper on my Grendel build and it has function flawlessly. That being said, I can buy the Spike’s locally so that’s why I’m leaning that direction.
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Last year I built a 6.5 Grendel upper and presently it shares time on my Armalite lower with my 5.56 upper. I want to build a dedicated lower for my Grendel and later might add a BCM upper as well. My LGS only carries Spike’s and Anderson stripped lowers. Does it really matter the name on the lower?
I want this lower to be milspec so I am prepared to do it right, l just would prefer to buy locally if possible. Any suggestions and insight would be greatly appreciated.
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Go for the Spikes over the Anderson. Spikes makes decent stuff. I have built one Anderson lower and it seems fine, I haven't test fired it extensively though and I've read some horror stories from others about Anderson lowers.
I built a spikes lower for my BCM upper and that rifle runs great. I also have a spikes BCG in my 10.5 6.8 and it works great.
IMO Spikes lowers are just fine, as long as you can find one with markings that you like. I haven't seen the sort of issues with them that I've seen with Anderson's or other cheap lowers, and in my experience they are usually pretty on the ball as far as customer service is concerned.
They have several at my LGS, the spider, the pirate, and a spartan. They are $99 and I’ve found them online for $93-$115 so it makes sense to support the local shop if I go with a Spike’s.
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I got the Spikes pirate and that isn't just a spider ;)
Local shop had them, but still ended up being cheaper to order Aero even with shipping and transfer after looking around a bit.
They have several at my LGS, the spider, the pirate, and a spartan. They are $99 and I’ve found them online for $93-$115 so it makes sense to support the local shop if I go with a Spike’s.
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Seems like a solid choice.
everready73
02-22-18, 14:27
Do you have issue with just buying a complete lower? Sionics has blems for $199 which are a steal IMO. They come with their enhanced trigger, H Buffer, and Magpul trigger guard. Add a stock for $50ish and you have a quality lower
Do you have issue with just buying a complete lower? Sionics has blems for $199 which are a steal IMO. They come with their enhanced trigger, H Buffer, and Magpul trigger guard. Add a stock for $50ish and you have a quality lower
I had never heard of them, but I went to their website and that one is sold out.
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OP wanted to buy local. But yeah I agree, the $199 Sionics blem is a smokin' deal even with shipping and transfer fee. I've got one on the way.
I’m not totally against an online purchase, that was a great deal, but sold out at this time.
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My LGS has BCM complete lowers with nice stock , grip BCM love all over. For $350, you just cant beat that stuff. The Colts from Brownells are crazy cheap. Go get you a lower you can love for ever.
PB
Buying local is cool. I would just buy something like a magazine while I was there too. I have 2 spikes lowers and 1 has been fantastic and the other doesn't drop Pmags free. If you are worried about other things, I'm sure your dealer would be accommodating to you trying them out before you did your paperwork.
rocket 442
02-22-18, 18:52
Aero makes lowers for Spikes.Nothing wrong with Spikes lowers except some of their roll marks.
rocket 442
02-22-18, 18:54
Aero makes lowers for Spikes.Nothing wrong with Spikes lowers except some of their roll marks.
Never heard of mags not dropping free on Spikes but I've had Aero's not drop free.
I have a Sionics lower that is a little picky on GI aluminum mags dropping free.
How about a Centurion? In Stickman’s forum, he is checking into a group buy. Don’t cheap out, buy something good.
I have a Sionics lower that is a little picky on GI aluminum mags dropping free.
It’ll free up with use.
It’ll free up with use.
Would be nice but have had it since about this time last year. All the Pmags I have drop free from it which surprised me a bit.
I'm going with a solgw for my next one. It'll have the Vltor A5 system with a B5 sopmod stock. In spec is in spec regardless of the roll mark on it. Aside from that it's personal preference.
Buy What You want and can afford.
Buying local is cool. I would just buy something like a magazine while I was there too. I have 2 spikes lowers and 1 has been fantastic and the other doesn't drop Pmags free. If you are worried about other things, I'm sure your dealer would be accommodating to you trying them out before you did your paperwork.
This is a good idea, thanks for the recommendation.
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I’ll go to my LGS and check out whether mags drop free from the Spike’s or not. They do have other BCM items so I could probably just order a BCM lower.
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Deleted due to low knowledge base.
Ruger stripped lowers are pretty common in the local shops here and priced pretty reasonably. I replaced an Anderson lower with the Ruger and would definitely recommend the Ruger over Anderson for a cheaper lower.
I also have 2 ARs with quality lowers and the difference is noticeable; assembly was a breeze, controls all work freely, the anodizing looks and feels right.
Andy
I forgot that my LGS had a Ruger lower as well I just kinda dismissed it. Maybe I’ll check it out. Thanks for the info.
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Deleted due to low knowledge base.
I will probably go with the Spike and build with the parts I want. If it has any mag dropping free issues I’ll just use it for huntin. I bought my Armalite in ‘06 so I’m not sure if it’s true milspec or not, but it has been solid since day one.
I still plan to buy a BCM complete upper sometime for my “go to war” gun and run it on whichever lower performs best.
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I forgot to mention my LGS has a MI stripped lower for something over $200 (don’t remember the exact price). I would assume they are pretty good, maybe billet? Thoughts?
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redpillregret
02-23-18, 11:59
Man, just pony up and buy something quality. You have options. There isn’t much point in “building” to save a buck. Most guys end up not knowing what they are doing and do something wrong anyway. Colt, BCM, LMT...just grab one.
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Man, just pony up and buy something quality. You have options. There isn’t much point in “building” to save a buck. Most guys end up not knowing what they are doing and do something wrong anyway. Colt, BCM, LMT...just grab one.
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First, I never said anything about trying to save a buck. I enjoy builds. Second, how could I screw up an easy build like a lower? Thanks for your thoughts though.
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redpillregret
02-23-18, 13:22
First, I never said anything about trying to save a buck. I enjoy builds. Second, how could I screw up an easy build like a lower? Thanks for your thoughts though.
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If it’s not about money, why would you look at things like Spikes and Ruger?
Secondly, yes, lots of dudes mess them up. Especially things like the fire control group, fail to stake the castle nut, etc.
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If it’s not about money, why would you look at things like Spikes and Ruger?
Secondly, yes, lots of dudes mess them up. Especially things like the fire control group, fail to stake the castle nut, etc.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd bolt catch....
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If it’s not about money, why would you look at things like Spikes and Ruger?
Secondly, yes, lots of dudes mess them up. Especially things like the fire control group, fail to stake the castle nut, etc.
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I was wanting to buy locally so those were the only brands they carry. I think it would be difficult to mess up a lower build, but I guess it is possible.
After all the recommendations of you and several others I bit the bullet and bought a blemished BCM lower from Bud’s Gun Shop.
For those that have gone this route, how blemished do they tend to be?
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hurley842002
02-23-18, 13:32
For those that have gone this route, how blemished do they tend to be?
I bought one blemished BCM private party years ago, and one new online, and I couldn't find an issue with either of them.
ETA: I've only owned 4 AR's in total, and just now working on my first build, so I'm certainly not an expert on the subject.
I was wanting to buy locally so those were the only brands they carry. I think it would be difficult to mess up a lower build, but I guess it is possible.
After all the recommendations of you and several others I bit the bullet and bought a blemished BCM lower from Bud’s Gun Shop.
For those that have gone this route, how blemished do they tend to be?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMine was a couple specks in anodized finish. You made a good decision.
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Mine was a couple specks in anodized finish. You made a good decision.
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That’s what I was hoping, thanks.
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That’s what I was hoping, thanks.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey are spendy but worth it. Great trigger, stock, and grip as well. The stock latch is tight as hell but doesn't wiggle.
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redpillregret
02-23-18, 13:53
The Blem BCMs I’ve purchased I could find nothing wrong with.
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I was sad when I started reading this thread and thought a fellow retired Infantrymen was going to settle on the first two options you mentioned, glad you came to your senses! Enjoy the BCM, FYI if you would have retired near a base you would have had many more options, here at FT Bragg I can get just about any brand stripped lower in about 20 minutes.
I was sad when I started reading this thread and thought a fellow retired Infantrymen was going to settle on the first two options you mentioned, glad you came to your senses! Enjoy the BCM, FYI if you would have retired near a base you would have had many more options, here at FT Bragg I can get just about any brand stripped lower in about 20 minutes.
Well I retired at the home of the infantry and we have a pretty good gun store, but they don’t stock BCM lowers. They do have other BCM accessories and they stock DD rifles and some Colt I think. And yea, I guess I came to my senses lol.
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Well I retired at the home of the infantry and we have a pretty good gun store, but they don’t stock BCM lowers. They do have other BCM accessories and they stock DD rifles and some Colt I think. And yea, I guess I came to my senses lol.
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Surprised Phoenix city or Columbus doesn't have more shops there? I wasn't into building AR's while I was a Drill down there at 2-19th ITB but the area seemed pro firearms.
Surprised Phoenix city or Columbus doesn't have more shops there? I wasn't into building AR's while I was a Drill down there at 2-19th ITB but the area seemed pro firearms.
There may be some more shops, but I only go to Shooters in Columbus and a couple of pawnshops in PC. Most guys like the cheaper stuff it seems.
There may be some more shops, but I only go to Shooters in Columbus and a couple of pawnshops in PC. Most guys like the cheaper stuff it seems.
We have a shooters here as well and it's pretty much where I get all my lowers, but they have a good selection. I picked up my BCM, noveske and Knights lower there, and have all my FFL orders shipped to them. They charge $20 for transfers.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4714/38636650000_b5250b0f7c_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21SbVXW)IMG_8362 (https://flic.kr/p/21SbVXW) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr
Shooters in Columbus kinda sucks as far as quality AR components. Lots of Anderson crap. A little better selection of complete rifles. The redeeming factor is, they keep B&T pistols in stock.
We have a shooters here as well and it's pretty much where I get all my lowers, but they have a good selection. I picked up my BCM, noveske and Knights lower there, and have all my FFL orders shipped to them. They charge $20 for transfers.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4714/38636650000_b5250b0f7c_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21SbVXW)IMG_8362 (https://flic.kr/p/21SbVXW) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr
Sounds like you got a good shop there
Shooters in Columbus kinda sucks as far as quality AR components. Lots of Anderson crap. A little better selection of complete rifles. The redeeming factor is, they keep B&T pistols in stock.
I wouldn't say they suck, but they could be better I guess
Excellent choice with the blem BCM, you will be happy that you went that route. Hard to beat that kind of value.
Please enlighten me then. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have built 4 ARs.
I am here to learn as well. Which ones of your lowers or weapons is milspec?
Yeah, yeah none are milspec. We get it.
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I am here to learn as well. Which ones of your lowers or weapons is milspec?Honestly IDK.... All the ones I bought and used are listed as milspec 7075 t6 aluminum. All 4 receivers accepted all the parts I put in them. So I'm still not sure what the difference is.
I have used 1 Rguns, 1 profab, and 2 Anderson receiver sets. 2 pistols 2 rifles. On of the pistols is 300 BLK the rest are 556. Other than not dimplimg the 300blk barrel enough and having the gas block slip under recoil I haven't had an issue with any of them.
As I said I'm no expert. And of course my same size is limited, but they have worked for me.
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Yeah, yeah none are milspec. We get it.
I'm glad that you do, but the question wasn't meant for you, it was meant for the person who doesn't understand that his lowers aren't milspec, not does he understand why, or what the other overall implications are.
If no one bothers to explain things to new people, how are they expected to learn?
Honestly IDK.... All the ones I bought and used are listed as milspec 7075 t6 aluminum. All 4 receivers accepted all the parts I put in them. So I'm still not sure what the difference is.
I have used 1 Rguns, 1 profab, and 2 Anderson receiver sets. 2 pistols 2 rifles. On of the pistols is 300 BLK the rest are 556. Other than not dimplimg the 300blk barrel enough and having the gas block slip under recoil I haven't had an issue with any of them.
As I said I'm no expert. And of course my same size is limited, but they have worked for me.
To start, none of the lowers you own are milspec. It is a term which the industry uses in a misleading way. Once upon a time it meant something, but in the civilian world it has come to mean almost nothing. In using your above example, which is a common one used, what they are actually saying is the forging the receiver started with was made from 7075 aluminum, not that the receiver is milspec in any way other than they share the same material. The machine work isn't the same, the finish typically is a variation of the one called for by military spec, and the QC which the item is supposed to be held to is not the same.
This certainly doesn't make every cheap receiver out there an absolute piece of garbage. However, it doesn't change these items are much more likely to be out of the called for specs, and it shows in the overall amount of complaints that are generated. Add to that, a lot of people assembling AR15s don't have a factual idea of what is or isn't correct, and the numbers would honestly be worse.
I wrote an article for publication a few years back talking about the difference between rails, and there were a few things that came together to form the various prices. In the case of receivers, there are a few similarities, but the primary means which cement the two pricing structures rely heavily on machine time. You can crank out rails and receivers pretty quickly if you don't care about things like tolerances, tool chatter, and the like. The manufacturer bills the retailer, or subretailers for their costs, and the machine time. A rail, or receiver which spends 20 minutes on a CNC is going to be much cheaper than one which spends 120 minutes.
If the parts you have work well enough for your needs, that is great. A lot of people on this board go into, or have gone into harms way, and they are not interested in substandard components. For a guy or girl who doesn't shoot much, and is looking at their AR15 as a way to have fun when they go shooting, I'm not sure if there is much to get worked up over for anyone. Once many people have something cheap, they begin to understand and appreciate the varying levels of quality, and what they are missing.
From a personal perspective, unless you are on my squad, part of my family, or a close friend, it doesn't matter to me what other people do. If someone gets uppity with you, don't worry about it. However, don't have issue when people point out your component list as subpar. While it might not matter for your needs, it may be important for others to learn.
Hopefully some of the above makes sense.
If nothing else, welcome to the board. It can be a bit chilly here for some people, but the big difference is that this particular board won't allow people to post BS without calling the person out. The end result makes for a pretty nice place once you get used to it.
Ruger stripped lowers are pretty common in the local shops here and priced pretty reasonably. I replaced an Anderson lower with the Ruger and would definitely recommend the Ruger over Anderson for a cheaper lower.
I also have 2 ARs with quality lowers and the difference is noticeable; assembly was a breeze, controls all work freely, the anodizing looks and feels right. They were more expensive, but it was money well spent. Pride of ownership is also a very real thing to me.
Andy
Another vote for Ruger here. I completed four builds using their lowers and no problems to report.
The Firing Pin in Opelika may have BCM lowers. The owner is a good guy and he sold me my first DD V1 years ago. I'll check next time I'm in the shop.
There may be some more shops, but I only go to Shooters in Columbus and a couple of pawnshops in PC. Most guys like the cheaper stuff it seems.
I'm glad that you do, but the question wasn't meant for you, it was meant for the person who doesn't understand that his lowers aren't milspec, not does he understand why, or what the other overall implications are.
If no one bothers to explain things to new people, how are they expected to learn?Valid statement. It certainly doesn't help that the term gets thrown around by dang near every manufacturer around. Personally I like stuff that's held to tighter tolerances than minimum acceptable standards.
Maybe persuade admin to make a well written and informative post into a sticky for folks to use as reference?
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To start, none of the lowers you own are milspec. It is a term which the industry uses in a misleading way. Once upon a time it meant something, but in the civilian world it has come to mean almost nothing. In using your above example, which is a common one used, what they are actually saying is the forging the receiver started with was made from 7075 aluminum, not that the receiver is milspec in any way other than they share the same material. The machine work isn't the same, the finish typically is a variation of the one called for by military spec, and the QC which the item is supposed to be held to is not the same.
This certainly doesn't make every cheap receiver out there an absolute piece of garbage. However, it doesn't change these items are much more likely to be out of the called for specs, and it shows in the overall amount of complaints that are generated. Add to that, a lot of people assembling AR15s don't have a factual idea of what is or isn't correct, and the numbers would honestly be worse.
I wrote an article for publication a few years back talking about the difference between rails, and there were a few things that came together to form the various prices. In the case of receivers, there are a few similarities, but the primary means which cement the two pricing structures rely heavily on machine time. You can crank out rails and receivers pretty quickly if you don't care about things like tolerances, tool chatter, and the like. The manufacturer bills the retailer, or subretailers for their costs, and the machine time. A rail, or receiver which spends 20 minutes on a CNC is going to be much cheaper than one which spends 120 minutes.
If the parts you have work well enough for your needs, that is great. A lot of people on this board go into, or have gone into harms way, and they are not interested in substandard components. For a guy or girl who doesn't shoot much, and is looking at their AR15 as a way to have fun when they go shooting, I'm not sure if there is much to get worked up over for anyone. Once many people have something cheap, they begin to understand and appreciate the varying levels of quality, and what they are missing.
From a personal perspective, unless you are on my squad, part of my family, or a close friend, it doesn't matter to me what other people do. If someone gets uppity with you, don't worry about it. However, don't have issue when people point out your component list as subpar. While it might not matter for your needs, it may be important for others to learn.
Hopefully some of the above makes sense.
If nothing else, welcome to the board. It can be a bit chilly here for some people, but the big difference is that this particular board won't allow people to post BS without calling the person out. The end result makes for a pretty nice place once you get used to it.
Thanks for this very informative post. Which manufacturers truly put out milspec products to the civy market? I know several (Colt, LMT, DD, FN and probably others, maybe BCM?) have their mil contracts, but does their stuff aimed at the civilian market meet the same standards as milspec?
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Thanks for this very informative post. Which manufacturers truly put out milspec products to the civy market? I know several (Colt, LMT, DD, FN and probably others, maybe BCM?) have their mil contracts, but does their stuff aimed at the civilian market meet the same standards as milspec?
I don't have time this morning for a complete answer, but the short answer is that no manufacturers build fully mil-spec lowers for civilian consumption.
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To start, none of the lowers you own are milspec. It is a term which the industry uses in a misleading way. Once upon a time it meant something, but in the civilian world it has come to mean almost nothing. In using your above example, which is a common one used, what they are actually saying is the forging the receiver started with was made from 7075 aluminum, not that the receiver is milspec in any way other than they share the same material. The machine work isn't the same, the finish typically is a variation of the one called for by military spec, and the QC which the item is supposed to be held to is not the same.
This certainly doesn't make every cheap receiver out there an absolute piece of garbage. However, it doesn't change these items are much more likely to be out of the called for specs, and it shows in the overall amount of complaints that are generated. Add to that, a lot of people assembling AR15s don't have a factual idea of what is or isn't correct, and the numbers would honestly be worse.
I wrote an article for publication a few years back talking about the difference between rails, and there were a few things that came together to form the various prices. In the case of receivers, there are a few similarities, but the primary means which cement the two pricing structures rely heavily on machine time. You can crank out rails and receivers pretty quickly if you don't care about things like tolerances, tool chatter, and the like. The manufacturer bills the retailer, or subretailers for their costs, and the machine time. A rail, or receiver which spends 20 minutes on a CNC is going to be much cheaper than one which spends 120 minutes.
If the parts you have work well enough for your needs, that is great. A lot of people on this board go into, or have gone into harms way, and they are not interested in substandard components. For a guy or girl who doesn't shoot much, and is looking at their AR15 as a way to have fun when they go shooting, I'm not sure if there is much to get worked up over for anyone. Once many people have something cheap, they begin to understand and appreciate the varying levels of quality, and what they are missing.
From a personal perspective, unless you are on my squad, part of my family, or a close friend, it doesn't matter to me what other people do. If someone gets uppity with you, don't worry about it. However, don't have issue when people point out your component list as subpar. While it might not matter for your needs, it may be important for others to learn.
Hopefully some of the above makes sense.
If nothing else, welcome to the board. It can be a bit chilly here for some people, but the big difference is that this particular board won't allow people to post BS without calling the person out. The end result makes for a pretty nice place once you get used to it.I totally see your point and agree. I wasn't calling the parts i used milspec.... The manufacturers were. So either they are or they aren't. As you said they have all worked for my purposes, which so far is range use and some sporatic professional training.
I'm just a plain old civilian. I don't kick in doors or hunt down terrorists. I am also not an expert. While I don't take offense, it is a little off putting the response I've gotten to an opinion. I NEVER said the lowers I used were the same as other more expensive ones. I DID says all things being equal buy the cheapest one... obviously what most have been pointing out is that all things are NOT equal.
I'm new to this board, but not new to the internet nor shooting. I'm always will to listen and learn. Most of the responses have been informative. Thank you for that.
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I like stuff that's held to tighter tolerances than minimum acceptable standards.
I have years working in a manufacturing environment in the aviation industry. I have experience in looking at ways to reduce costs from defects.
Tolerances are set to ensure parts work with each other. Tighter tolerances mean nothing if there is no added value to the product. People have this idea that "milspec" is the minimum standard. What they don't realize is, in particular regards to machines and parts supplied to the military, it is THE Standard. It's what gets the job done. Anything outside milspec isn't better than the minimum. It is outside allowable limits. Changes to milspec results in a product that doesn't fulfill the mission. An example is the M203 notch cut on the M4 barrel. For civilian use, it isn't needed and can be deleted. But deleting the M203 notch from the barrel isn't better for an organization that needs to mount the M203 to their M4s. The M203 notch isn't the minimum standard. It is THE Standard.
Another thing people don't realize. Tighter tolerances mean nothing if the manufacturing process isn't in control. For example, On one project, hole defects were costing the aviation company I worked for millions of dollars and they wanted to know why. The short story is, the process had poor control. In one case, the hole needed to be .185"-.188" for an interference fit with the fastener. It was found that when the holes were perfectly drilled, using the tooling and drill process specified by the company, hole dimensions varied from minimum to maximum. What that meant is that when the holes were processed perfectly, the holes would be within tolerance, but there was no control. With further investigation, it was discovered that with a change to a cheaper drill, the mechanic could process holes faster with less effort and better control of the final dimension. The irony? The double margin drill we switched to wasn't held to tolerances as tight as the piloted reamer it replaced. But it gave us better control when processing the .185"-.188" interference fit holes and saved the company millions in hole defects. The holes were withing tolerance AND in control.
What you want isn't a product "made to tighter tolerances". What you want is a product that is made to proper tolerances using processes that are in control. That's what we call Quality Control. You want a lower made with good quality controls in place.
Let me add- Parts that are made to spec without controlling the process cost more than parts made to spec with good process control.
Wow, looks like Aero Precision has a bad reputation.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?124275-Aero-Upper-won-t-fit
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
Wow, looks like Aero Precision has a bad reputation.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?124275-Aero-Upper-won-t-fit
1.) That thread is 5 years old
2.) If you'd read the entire thing you would have realized that the OP eventually concluded his lower was out of spec and not the Aero Upper
There are some documented examples of issues with Aero products, but they seem to be good about addressing them when given a chance, at least in my experience (which is limited to their receiver sets and handguards). They are a budget oriented product for sure, but they put a better product than the bottom of the barrel manufacturers and are generally a good value at their price point.
1.) That thread is 5 years old
2.) If you'd read the entire thing you would have realized that the OP eventually concluded his lower was out of spec and not the Aero Upper
There are some documented examples of issues with Aero products, but they seem to be good about addressing them when given a chance, at least in my experience (which is limited to their receiver sets and handguards). They are a budget oriented product for sure, but they put a better product than the bottom of the barrel manufacturers and are generally a good value at their price point.
I read the entire thing and it was the rest of the thread I was referring to, not just a single upper. Sounded like long term and deep issues.
This thread ends with someone explaining exactly what Mil Spec means as opposed to what it’s taken to mean. The minimum standard of acceptance - with defined tolerances - for conformance to military specifications. It doesn’t require a Burst selection, it requires that where 6061 T6 alum. is specified, it actually conforms to 6061 T6 standards as defined by the spec.
Is that clear enough?
You would think so. You would be wrong.
Have ten expert technicians mike a pipe using the same micrometer.
You won’t get an answer, you’ll get a range.
It then falls upon one whose pay grade infers accountability deciding the final Go/No-Go sign off, and if you don’t think expedience and profit bend lines, you don’t understand the term “close enough for government work”.
Anderson has cost contractors their reputations.
Colt? A much safer bet.
But mil specs as absolutes? No such animal.
Anderson has cost contractors their reputations.
Rightfully so.
Fruits of the poisonous tree, the fish rots from the head down, or whatever other phrase people prefer, selling absolute and utter garbage components that have failed QC is inexcusable.
I really hope you don't mean they are not MIL-SPEC because they are not drilled for an auto sear pin and marked as full auto or burst.
Most of us understand that the lower is the firearm, and since 1986 new machine guns are not legal to build and sell to consumers.
My thought is that a "MIL-SPEC" lower is forged from the material specified in the M-16/M-4 Techical Data Package (TDP), machined to the dimensions called out in the TDP with hole placement and threads within the tolerances called out in the same TDP, and finished according to the TDP. Exceptions are markings and the afore-mentioned auto-sear pin hole.
I am certain Colt sells lowers built to the TDP they sold to the government, only semi-auto.
I am also certain that other companies sell lowers (or rifles built on the lowers) which match the material, dimensions, and finish called out by the TDP. Depending on the company, lowers may not be forged, tolerances may be smaller or larger, dimensions may be changed, and raw material and finish may vary.
All that to say - yes, I said I prefer Ruger lowers to Anderson, but I prefer my Sabre Defence and Nodak Spud lowers to either.
Andy
You are incorrect. This has been covered numerous times as to the hows and whys.
I can't believe this "just as good" or "Milspec is Milspec bruh" conversations still exist today, even with the overwhelming amount of evidence there is online today. A little googling goes a long way. I used to try to inform people about QC, the quality of parts and materials and reputation, but at the end of the day, there are three types of gun owners. The recreational shooter (who buys cheap and says just as good), the enthusiast (who knows about everything posted above, but buys the best at his budget) and the duty guys ( who buys the absolute best that knows it would probably not fail and can literally beat the shit out of).
I don't even bother anymore, just let them buy/do what ever they want. They'll learn on their own sooner than later.
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
Hammer_Man
02-26-18, 22:44
If you hang around the forums long enough you'll learn certain companies have a reputation for quality. BCM, Colt, KAC, Sionics, Vltor, Mega, Noveske, Aero etc... Learn who they are, and stick to their products. You'll save yourself a lot of headache in the long run if you do.
That name, Colt. Its legendary. But my son-in-law keeps comparing it to Harley-Davidson. But to be honest, I really can't vouch for them. Everyone who owns Colt sings their praises. But, are they really on a special level of high quality or are you just paying for a name? Vltor? I'll rave over Vltor and specify why. Im putting their CASV rail system on my current AR! Ill show you a AR15 and show you whats Noveske and talk Noveske and get stoked over their quality, innovation. Aero-Precision? When someone is tight on $$$, but they don't want to compromise ...on and on.
And I didn't come here to be a troll and piss off Colt aficionados by doing what my daughter's husband does to me. Actually, I'd like to arm myself with some facts.
If the first M16s issued when McNamara made them the official primary rifle of all five branches of the military, that works against making a case for them. i was trained on them at Ft Ord, but we weren't the first. We were told that, at a future date, everyone with a combat MOS would turn in their M14 for this black firearm that looked like a space gun and shot a .22 caliber bullet. It used a faster round than the ones I used on jackrabbits, but a .22?
I wish I could say we were impressed. They looked flimsy and ...to be honest, they said "Vietnam" like they characterized the whole war with questions about the wisdom of over-commitment to something that had the usual experts confused.
I returned three times to the little armory bunker run by a 20 year E-6 and his assistant, a Spec. 4 for new incarnations of the M16. They planned on holding that firebase about the size of a total football field, meaning the team areas, runways, accommodations etc and we caught hell just for saying "LZ" -because it was really just an LZ. Normally, we would have come in on a march order, set up bunkers and wire, and when everyone was talking about concrete bunkers, we'd get ordered to move out.
The point?
It really seemed we were digging in for a long stretch but we were only making occasional contact. Then some sgt who was going home said they couldn't pull all of IFFV into Tuy Hoa, but we were going o get trained on the M16, and trained well, and that rifle that replaced the M14 was GOING TO WORK.
THAT was scary. because they were scared!
The tracking number says my BCM lower group will be at my FFL tomorrow so I'll have it by Thursday at the latest. I'll take pics of the blemishes if noticeable to give an idea what you can expect if you buy a BCM blemished lower. Thanks for all the help, now I need to decide which upper to get to replicate the M4 I used on AD.
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-14-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-14.htm
Just have them install a2x.
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https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-14-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-14.htm
Just have them install a2x.
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I am between a BCM and a Colt 6920 upper. The BCM I was lookin at is the 14.5 Socom with pinned a2x though. The Colt is obviously closer to the real thing, but the 16" BBL bothers me that's why I'm leaning toward BCM.
Deleted due to low knowledge base.
That name, Colt. Its legendary. But my son-in-law keeps comparing it to Harley-Davidson. But to be honest, I really can't vouch for them. Everyone who owns Colt sings their praises. But, are they really on a special level of high quality or are you just paying for a name? Vltor? I'll rave over Vltor and specify why. Im putting their CASV rail system on my current AR! Ill show you a AR15 and show you whats Noveske and talk Noveske and get stoked over their quality, innovation. Aero-Precision? When someone is tight on $$$, but they don't want to compromise ...on and on.
And I didn't come here to be a troll and piss off Colt aficionados by doing what my daughter's husband does to me. Actually, I'd like to arm myself with some facts.
If the first M16s issued when McNamara made them the official primary rifle of all five branches of the military, that works against making a case for them. i was trained on them at Ft Ord, but we weren't the first. We were told that, at a future date, everyone with a combat MOS would turn in their M14 for this black firearm that looked like a space gun and shot a .22 caliber bullet. It used a faster round than the ones I used on jackrabbits, but a .22?
I wish I could say we were impressed. They looked flimsy and ...to be honest, they said "Vietnam" like they characterized the whole war with questions about the wisdom of over-commitment to something that had the usual experts confused.
I returned three times to the little armory bunker run by a 20 year E-6 and his assistant, a Spec. 4 for new incarnations of the M16. They planned on holding that firebase about the size of a total football field, meaning the team areas, runways, accommodations etc and we caught hell just for saying "LZ" -because it was really just an LZ. Normally, we would have come in on a march order, set up bunkers and wire, and when everyone was talking about concrete bunkers, we'd get ordered to move out.
The point?
It really seemed we were digging in for a long stretch but we were only making occasional contact. Then some sgt who was going home said they couldn't pull all of IFFV into Tuy Hoa, but we were going o get trained on the M16, and trained well, and that rifle that replaced the M14 was GOING TO WORK.
THAT was scary. because they were scared!
Welcome to the forum.
If your blem lower is like my BCM blem upper, good luck finding the blemish!
I get what you mean about the 16" barrel, it just doesn't look right on an M4 tribute build or clone. I still went with a 16" barrel, but it's a personal choice.
Andy
As I've noted before BCM blem uppers are all I use for builds. I'll second the good luck finding the blem.
I bought a blem BCM lower for my BCM Mk12 and I still couldn't find the blemish.
Receivers are often the responsibility of one individual who checks them over, and checks them in for inventory. I know one company that does this with special lighting. While many people might not be able to find a blemish, someone who does QC finish checks all day long looking for blemishes can come up with piles which make manufacturers cringe and curse.
sasquatchoslav
02-27-18, 12:40
I have two PWS uppers. One has a MOD 2 lower and the other is a PSA blem. One was $500 the other was $150. The PSA lower has about 6k rounds total through it on a hand full of different uppers and about 1k of them with the PWS upper. Never so much as a hiccup and mates up perfectly. I'm not saying it's as pretty as the MOD 2 it's not, but it functions just like the MOD 2 and I've not been nice to it over the years. It's genesis was on a cheap PSA beater I built up years ago for ramming steel cased ammo through it. You won't regret buying a top flight firearm component, but you might end up regretting PSA I've read some bad things maybe just lucky with mine. For a sub $500 rifle I never expected much, but it's been an absolute beast for me. Good luck and enjoy the rifle shopping!
Not incorrect; I assure you that I prefer Ruger lowers to Anderson and many manufacturers to either.
Andy
I certainly wasn't stating your preference was incorrect. Everything else you posted which didn't involve your last sentence.... that is what my post reflected.
You have a low knowledge base in this area, and appear caught up in reading garbage posts from other boards which you repeat.
You can't come to a board which has professionals and expect to post things you heard without getting corrected when wrong. There are a lot of new people on this board, especially as political climates turn ugly for firearms. We want to help them understand things, and to learn correct information.
I understand there are members here who know AR15s, so feel free to address the point I was trying to make before I started rambling. It’s a bad affliction; I’ll work on it.
A Colt is a higher quality AR15 than, say, a DoubleStar. In what way? Higher quality materials made to more exacting specs that ensure accuracy, reliability, etc?
The only Colts I ever had were neither, but that wasn’t Colt’s fault. They were the weapons the specs produced. The design was young.
I don’t want a response for the purpose of taunting or disputing you.
I’m told that the money I spend on a Colt 6920 is for the name not for the superior quality.
Facts, examples, specific results of using higher quality manufacturing of top grade materials. Anyone with the time or inclination to inform me on this has my appreciation for his patience and expertise.
A friend owns a Cobra Tactical franchise, and he truly believes no finer AR15 is produced. But my Cobra Tactical is the only lower I have where the pins don’t align with all of my uppers. He believes in his product, but he’s apparently delusional.
I understand there are members here who know AR15s, so feel free to address the point I was trying to make before I started rambling. It’s a bad affliction; I’ll work on it.
A Colt is a higher quality AR15 than, say, a DoubleStar. In what way? Higher quality materials made to more exacting specs that ensure accuracy, reliability, etc?
The only Colts I ever had were neither, but that wasn’t Colt’s fault. They were the weapons the specs produced. The design was young.
I don’t want a response for the purpose of taunting or disputing you.
I’m told that the money I spend on a Colt 6920 is for the name not for the superior quality.
Facts, examples, specific results of using higher quality manufacturing of top grade materials. Anyone with the time or inclination to inform me on this has my appreciation for his patience and expertise.
A friend owns a Cobra Tactical franchise, and he truly believes no finer AR15 is produced. But my Cobra Tactical is the only lower I have where the pins don’t align with all of my uppers. He believes in his product, but he’s apparently delusional.
You answered your own question.
In the world of the Cobra Tacticals, Cheap Frankengun, Instagram Mil-specs it's a delusional market on many aspects.
Colt is known as reliable due to TDP considerations and quality control. Every company can make a lemon, it's the rate in which that occurs and how they handle it that makes them above many. Ask anyone who's had a real problem with BCM how quickly it was resolved. Ask how many have experienced first hand issues with BCM's quality to begin with due to extension quality control standards.
Yes, that 40 dollar Anderson MIGHT be in spec. It might even be within the TDP specs. However, if they have a failure rate of 33% for many and that's just for the evident stuff like Bolt Hold Opens, take down pins, and detent pin holes. What about the more important stuff like premature sear face wear due to a cant in the pinholes? What about materials hardening or coatings not being done correctly?
It's not about pointing out every single evidence piece that they are "not mil-spec" it comes down to: Are you willing to trust your duty weapon on a lower that, statistically, can't get the basic stuff in spec at times? (And still have the delusion to keep on saying Anderson is just as good as Colt or BCM)
That's all.
Lots of knowledge bombs dropped by stick here. No, not all lower receivers are equal. You are the QC department for many of these companies. Buyer beware....
C4
Hammer_Man
02-27-18, 16:41
I bought two Anderson lowers during the 2012 panic, and the space between the pivot pin holes on one of them was so big, it felt like there was at least 1/8" of play between it and the upper receiver. I promptly sold them both off. I bought a Spike's Crusader lower that had a lot of receiver slop as well. I traded that one back into the dealer I bought it from for other parts I needed. I've tried low end parts kits from CMMG, Anderson, and Spike's. Of the three the Spike's kit was actually pretty good, but the CMMG had a really weak feeling selector detent, and a pivot pin that always felt loose. The Anderson kit looked like it was just a repackaged CMMG kit, do I returned it to the store I bought it from. All my current builds feature Colt, and Sionics parts kits, and I couldn't be happier. No weird feeling pins, no weak safety selectors. I even bought Colt dust cover assemblies, and can say they feel higher quality than the AR Stoner branded one I bought when I was in a pinch. My next build I plan to use BCM parts, as I have not used their small parts yet, but hear good things about them.
I have a problem with Spikes, but it’s more of a matter of who they are, not how good they are.
Children can’t buy firearms for an obvious reason.
When we hear about these mass shootings they’re almost always some childish video game fanatic and he’s playing out a children’s fantasy at the cost of human life and we who know what a lethal weapon is for suffer from guilt by association.
A firearms manufacturer who has a zombie theme isn’t marketing for adults. It’s time for Spikes to put aside childish things.
I have a problem with Spikes, but it’s more of a matter of who they are, not how good they are.
Children can’t buy firearms for an obvious reason.
When we hear about these mass shootings they’re almost always some childish video game fanatic and he’s playing out a children’s fantasy at the cost of human life and we who know what a lethal weapon is for suffer from guilt by association.
A firearms manufacturer who has a zombie theme isn’t marketing for adults. It’s time for Spikes to put aside childish things.Oh darn. I just bought a snowflake lower.
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It's not about pointing out every single evidence piece that they are "not mil-spec" it comes down to: Are you willing to trust your duty weapon on a lower that, statistically, can't get the basic stuff in spec at times? (And still have the delusion to keep on saying Anderson is just as good as Colt or BCM)
That's all.
Yes, as a matter of fact I would, because I shoot my stuff.
Doesn't matter what you have, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Myself, I like to work on things and build shit. I can't for the life of me see that as being hard to understand, so I, for one, get tired of folks telling me I'm a moron for enjoying putting budget rifles together. I'm willing to be the final QC on budget lowers, although I don't use Anderson because of their logo.
But, that's just me.
(Snicker!)
Snowflake lower?
Yes, the choice of maladjusted video game warriors, everywhere!
Those biblical scriptures that Spikes puts on their lowers include I Corinthians reference to “when I was a child I spoke as a child... and when I became a man I put aside childish things!”
These shooters aren’t crazy, they’re the gun owners who are adults by law, but their confirmed kills don’t haunt them because they see a nightmare as a Game Over score.
If we could test for adult consciousness, we'd never hear about another mass shooting!
It could be the last question on the DROS:
Q: Did you clap for Tinkerbell?
Yes, as a matter of fact I would, because I shoot my stuff.
Doesn't matter what you have, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Myself, I like to work on things and build shit. I can't for the life of me see that as being hard to understand, so I, for one, get tired of folks telling me I'm a moron for enjoying putting budget rifles together. I'm willing to be the final QC on budget lowers, although I don't use Anderson because of their logo.
But, that's just me.
I for one can't take issue with that approach. If you're making an educated decision based on your priorities with a clear understanding of what you're getting when you buy a more budget oriented product, what's wrong with that? To me that's entirely different from saying "Anderson is just as good as Colt/BCM/DD."
I've made the same choice with the last couple of rifles I put together for myself, choosing to go with Aero receiver sets instead of something more expensive and then spend the money saved on other components (A5 buffer system, G trigger, etc). I made that decision with the understanding that I may end up dealing with Aero's customer service dept if there's an issue with their receiver, and with no illusions that they are the same as a Colt/BCM/DD/etc product.
I have a DD Complete rifle. The last couple lowers I got were BCM complete lowers. I also have a 6920. I won't buy anymore Colt lowers because of the damned web sear block. The next few I buy will be BCM again.
redpillregret
02-28-18, 10:52
I have a DD Complete rifle. The last couple lowers I got were BCM complete lowers. I also have a 6920. I won't buy anymore Colt lowers because of the damned web sear block. The next few I buy will be BCM again.
Curious, what problems does this create for you?
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Anyone know where blem BCM lowers are for sale? Been looking everywhere to no avail.
Anyone know where blem BCM lowers are for sale? Been looking everywhere to no avail.
I got mine at Bud’s Gun Shop
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I got mine at Bud’s Gun Shop
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Sold out there as well. What did you pay for that?
Sold out there as well. What did you pay for that?
$326, I ordered it last Thursday or Friday
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Not bad. Primary Arms has new lowers in stock for $395 but they give 10% for LEO/Military so I can get it for about $356.
Not bad. Primary Arms has new lowers in stock for $395 but they give 10% for LEO/Military so I can get it for about $356.
Arms Unlimited has Colt lower receiver groups for $300
Arms Unlimited has Colt lower receiver groups for $300
This is the way I think:
Magpul Enhanced Receiver Extension (10 position A5 length) $59.95 (Magpul)
VLTOR A5 Buffer Kit $47.99 (Midway)
B5 Type 23 Grip $16.43 (Brownells)
EXOS TI-7 Stock $69.99 (EXOS)
ALG AR15/M4 Mil-Spec Lower Parts Kit (Less Trigger, Less Grip) $49.95 (ALG Defense)
LaRue MBT $99.00 (LaRue Precision)
Total (minus lower) $293.36
So then I take one of my $59.00 (IIRC) Alexandria Pro-Fab lower receivers out of my box o' receivers and I'm into a lower set up close to what I like for $352.36 without having to take off and replace parts.
I'll add a Geissele Maritime Catch ($49.00) a KAC Ambi Mag Release ($61.99) and an ambi safety from my parts bin. These are expenses I would have regardless.
Actually, if you consider the parts I would replace on either a complete Colt or BCM lower you would need to add $86.00 for the stock and grip, since I'd replace those anyways. So a $300.00 complete lower becomes a $386.00 complete lower and I have another stock and grip to toss in the box of stocks and grips that will never get used. :(
The point I'm trying to make is that unless you are going to run a basic, stock lower, putting one together is a very cost effective to get a lower that you like.
As long as the lower is made from a 7075 T-6 forging and works with the parts you install, what difference does it make whose logo is on it?
My way I roll out with exactly what I want in a lower. Well, except for the Sionics Logo which I think is cool, so I want one. And I'll buy one some day.
I said the heck with it and ordered a BCM full lower. $355 on Primary Arms.
I said the heck with it and ordered a BCM full lower. $355 on Primary Arms.
Good deal. The tracking says mine got delivered to my FFL today. I can’t go pick it up until tomorrow though. Now I gotta decide on a new upper for it. I’m considering a BCM 14.5 SOCOM, a Colt OEM2, or a BCM 16” mid-length ELW with mlok rail.
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Good deal. The tracking says mine got delivered to my FFL today. I can’t go pick it up until tomorrow though. Now I gotta decide on a new upper for it. I’m considering a BCM 14.5 SOCOM, a Colt OEM2, or a BCM 16” mid-length ELW with mlok rail.
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I plan to put an SBR upper on this but I have to get my class III for that here in NY first.
dontshakepandas
02-28-18, 19:57
I recently ordered a billet lower from Kinetic Development. I wanted to go billet on this build to do something a little different, but I wanted to avoid ambi lowers to avoid picking up bad habits that won't work on my other rifles. Rainier Arms had a great deal on it, especially when compared to other billet lowers. It only had one review, but it was a good review and I had a good experience with one of their other products.
It arrived at my FFL today and when I went to pick it up, the finish was worn off in several places. I'm pretty amazed that Rainier sent it out looking like that without it being marked as blemished.
After about an hour trying to get someone on the phone they agreed to send my FFL a return shipping label and refund me the full purchase price.
I just ordered a matching upper and lower from Cross Machine Tool Company for not much more than it would have been to add an upper to the KDG lower. I think I'll be a lot happier with the CMT.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/8418fbc2d4fee9ecb5ce3af61744b46e.jpg
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I recently ordered a billet lower from Kinetic Development. I wanted to go billet on this build to do something a little different, but I wanted to avoid ambi lowers to avoid picking up bad habits that won't work on my other rifles. Rainier Arms had a great deal on it, especially when compared to other billet lowers. It only had one review, but it was a good review and I had a good experience with one of their other products.
It arrived at my FFL today and when I went to pick it up, the finish was worn off in several places. I'm pretty amazed that Rainier sent it out looking like that without it being marked as blemished.
After about an hour trying to get someone on the phone they agreed to send my FFL a return shipping label and refund me the full purchase price.
I just ordered a matching upper and lower from Cross Machine Tool Company for not much more than it would have been to add an upper to the KDG lower. I think I'll be a lot happier with the CMT.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/8418fbc2d4fee9ecb5ce3af61744b46e.jpg
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That looks pretty shoddy I don’t blame you. Blems I’ve seen go out from BCM look much better than that.
I’ve never bought a complete AR. I get stoked just talking about how it’s gonna be built and why.
I want a Vltor rail system; I just can’t find one at the usual places.
There’s the Mako version (VFR-AR), but I’m not “settling” on this one.
Nothing ensures Buyers Remorse like getting less than what really wanted.
Picked up my BCM from my FFL today. Quick and easy purchase from Bud’s at a good price with fast shipping. The fit and finish is excellent especially for a blemished lower ( I found one small mark in the pic below), locks up tight on both my uppers, and there’s no wobble in the stock either. Thanks for all the advice, I am very happy with what I bought. Now, I need to order a new upper for it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/0208e746d46b59ca8146954e4ede602e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/609647f0e83445e8744063cbe21fd140.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/969329798ec3edfcd25f39f89dd6587e.jpg
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I’ve never bought a complete AR. I get stoked just talking about how it’s gonna be built and why.
I want a Vltor rail system; I just can’t find one at the usual places.
There’s the Mako version (VFR-AR), but I’m not “settling” on this one.
Nothing ensures Buyers Remorse like getting less than what really wanted.
I bought two and won’t ever again. I sold my first AR (Smith MP15) to my brother. Bought my Colt LE6920 since I wanted one now my 3rd and 4th will both be totally customized or built by me. It’s the fun way of doing it for sure.
If that’s blemished, you made out!
I wanted a chrome-lined barrel (despite all the evidence that nitriding/W.A.S.P./melanite treating is superior.)
Brownells had CHF chrome-lined barrels for $99 because they were “blemished”.
Like your lower, whatever blemish was there was indistinguishable, and it was apparently done well by whoever did it: it’s sub-MOA accurate.
Nice! Thanks for the photos!
Wow, even the mint BCM lower groups are selling out. Got mine from Primary Arms and it’s sold out. Brownells too. My LGS had 17 on order now they’re down to 10 I see. I would’ve had to pay about $120 more than I did if I went through them. NY sucks.
Folks are probably gonna start being stupid and panicking now.
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Hammer_Man
03-01-18, 21:51
Folks are probably gonna start being stupid and panicking now.
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Yep... :angry: Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an end to how crazy our world is getting.
Eurodriver
03-01-18, 21:54
Folks are probably gonna start being stupid and panicking now.
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Good.
Let them panic.
I have things to sell.
Best way to avoid it is to ensure you always have more than you "need right now", I think.
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Good.
Let them panic.
I have things to sell.
I, too, have sold a few things myself all firearm related. Rather quickly I might add.
PLEASE DO NOT GO OFF THE RAILS AND START POSTING PANIC AND POLITICAL BS HERE OR IT'S OVER. THANKS
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