View Full Version : Choosing a Beginner Handgun
I am looking specifically for a handgun that is better suited for a beginner.
I'm not looking for "buy a Glock and learn how to shoot it" advice. I have a Glock that I shoot well, but never felt it was an easy gun to start a beginner out on. Some discussion in the closed 320 vs thread by Grant really stood out to me, backing up my feeling on it.
...The truth is that the Glock is one of the hardest guns to shoot well...
...Glock's and new shooters should stay away from each other...
Insight especially from instructors on what they have/would choose to teach teens or a beginner with no gun experience is what I'm looking for.
I am looking specifically for a handgun that is better suited for a beginner.
I'm not looking for "buy a Glock and learn how to shoot it" advice. I have a Glock that I shoot well, but never felt it was an easy gun to start a beginner out on. Some discussion in the closed 320 vs thread by Grant really stood out to me, backing up my feeling on it.
Insight especially from instructors on what they have/would choose to teach teens or a beginner with no gun experience is what I'm looking for.
Before I get the random drive by from the Glock fanboys telling me I am wrong, I will add "shooting fast." Lots of people shoot Glock's "well" (loose definition here), but when we put them on a 10/10/10 drill, they push rounds to the left (as a right handed shooters). I will also add an * to my above statement that Todd grabbed. Flat triggers seem address a lot of the issues with people pushing Glock triggers (instead of pulling them). Example, my 14yr old son shoots my G19 straight and true (at speed). He has small hands and really cannot reach any of the controls...
With that out of the way, the M&P 2.0 line (compact) would be a good choice Todd as would the VP9/P30. Customizable grip size is where its at and allows a young shooter to grow into the gun. There are of course others (PPQ, FN 509, APX, etc), but these two a my favorite.
C4
Do you want a gun that will help them become a good shooter, or something that is easy to be good with?
Looking for easy to shoot reasonably well, keeping it fun so they build confidence and interest in continuing shooting.
Grant, just the kind of details I needed, thank you. If I don't have to give up Glock are the Gen 4/5 without backstrap small enough for most women? I'm only up to Gen3.
I believe in the ease of learning a single trigger pull of a striker. Is anyone challenging that idea?
Any advances in DAO worth looking at?
Being a range gun with no expectation of carry, is a DA/SA just run SA worth considering?
Coal Dragger
02-27-18, 17:12
DAO gun worth a look would be the HK P30 LEM trigger. It’s brilliant, almost like a long two stage trigger for a pistol. Long smooth (forgiving) takeup, comes to the point where the sere will break and gives a pretty clean break. Just happens that the long smooth takeup fully cocks the hammer on a preloaded mainspring. So DAO safety and forgiveness, with an SA like break for deliberate shooting. When you’re going fast you can just roll right through the trigger.
Of course you get all the other P30 benefits of grip configuration, quality etc.
Well, since it said handgun and not pistol I'll comment that a good K or L frame revolver is an extremely reliable and relatively easy shooting starting point.
What about a Beretta 92? I've taken a 92 out, a couple glocks, a few revolvers, and a 1911 out for new shooters before. The Beretta got a lot of trigger time, easy to shoot, low recoil, accurate. There is something there. Granted, a lot are going to slam the DA/SA trigger. But, if we are taking a new shooter and working with them on the basics, and getting comfortable, and not to be high speed face shooters out of the gate. A 92 isn't bad for that.
I find people these days only think of a handgun as a purely defensive instrument and if it is not in a service caliber or capable of being used as a carry gun is not to be considered.
Widen horizons a bit !
Some will disagree I know but nothing is better at teaching the fundamentals of sights grip stance and trigger than a target grade .22. Picking up something like a ruger standard auto ( not my personal choice but probably the most common these days) cheap to buy accurate and reliable and cheap to feed.
Some will say the fundamentals won’t transfer to service weapons- hogwash. Find a club running steel challenge matches. Start with the .22 ( focusing on hitting first speed second) then graduate to a larger caliber when skills are attained and maintained.
Honestly I think any handgun can be mastered by anyone who puts forth the effort. I carried a G21 for years because it was what my department issued. On the surface you say wow, that gun is way too big for a general issue pistol. But very few had trouble qualifying with it, and those that did have trouble would have had problems with any handgun. Personally I shoot the G21 better than any other handgun I've owned or shot. But I think it is because I have so much trigger time on it.
Looking for easy to shoot reasonably well, keeping it fun so they build confidence and interest in continuing shooting.
Grant, just the kind of details I needed, thank you. If I don't have to give up Glock are the Gen 4/5 without backstrap small enough for most women? I'm only up to Gen3.
I believe in the ease of learning a single trigger pull of a striker. Is anyone challenging that idea?
Any advances in DAO worth looking at?
Being a range gun with no expectation of carry, is a DA/SA just run SA worth considering?
Money no object? A 9mm 1911.
If it is, id suggest a cz75 or m92 based on my limited pistol experience. They are both easy to shoot well.
Achilles11B
02-27-18, 23:09
Similar to why CAVDOC said, does it have to be centerfire?
I really like Smith and Wesson’s M&P in .22LR. Work all day on good mechanics with a round that’s as easy on the wrists as it is on the wallet.
Averageman
02-28-18, 00:08
My Wife shot my G17 so well she had to have her own G19 three months later.
I would have wasted a lot of time, energy and money by not starting her with a Glock.
It's a very individual thing, so why not try the Glock first?
LMT Shooter
02-28-18, 00:31
CAVDOC nailed it.
I'll add that I want a new shooter to have a gun with a manual safety.
M&P 9 has worked very well for me, though the 2.0s texturing may be too aggressive. Their .22 seems promising, though I’ve yet to shoot one. Or a 1911 in .22 or 9mm.
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I'd go with an M&P 2.0 compact or a PPQ M2.
In a full-size, VP9 or Walther PPQ...both have great triggers, customizable grips that work well for smaller hands. I own both (along with a G19). I'd probably favor the VP9. In a compact, I'd opt for a Walther PPS M2.
I always found it to be a little scary giving new shooters SA guns. Too much to remember to do and sometimes you can see them thinking.... what's the next step. That extra step with the safety and finger off the trigger throws many off. They're fine once they get going but it's the beginning where they have to pick up the gun, aim, take safety off while keeping finger off the trigger then shoot.
SW model 10 K frame 38spl is a great gun to learn on. Older used ones are only around $300, often less. Throw in a set of rubber grips for a better grip with less felt recoil for $20 and you can shoot it all day.
For DA semi autos a used SW 5906. Although it depends who youre teaching. Some people have problems with the weight of the gun. It's around 40oz. It balances well, the DA is 10# but smooth and doesn't actually feel like 10#. Between used police trade Sig 226, SW 5906, Beretta 92 there's a some solid options for DA around $400. I dunno if I'd spend HK money to teach someone unless it's something I'm doing for a living. CZ has many options as well.
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My first pistol was a S&W M18 .22 6 shot revolver, I still have it. A good DA revolver will teach trigger control and economy of ammunition. What about a good .22 top end for one of your existing pistols? I have one for my Colt government .38 super and I use for teaching new shooters along with the afore mentioned Smith wheelgun.
ginzomatic
02-28-18, 08:48
What about a Beretta 92? I've taken a 92 out, a couple glocks, a few revolvers, and a 1911 out for new shooters before. The Beretta got a lot of trigger time, easy to shoot, low recoil, accurate. There is something there. Granted, a lot are going to slam the DA/SA trigger. But, if we are taking a new shooter and working with them on the basics, and getting comfortable, and not to be high speed face shooters out of the gate. A 92 isn't bad for that.
+1 for this. A lot of the criticism for the M9 is from bandwagon haters... it's a good gun for the reasons pointed out above
I regularly work with a lot of beginners of all ages. My new shooter guns are G19s and K frames. I'll use the occasional rimfire, but found the "start-with-a-22" shtick to be far less valid than we think. Instructional method matters enormously. If not a fan of the G, pick your 9mm mid to full size favorite.
I'll add that I want a new shooter to have a gun with a manual safety.
Why? When are they no longer a "new shooter" for purposes of that safety usage?
Looking for easy to shoot reasonably well, keeping it fun so they build confidence and interest in continuing shooting.
Grant, just the kind of details I needed, thank you. If I don't have to give up Glock are the Gen 4/5 without backstrap small enough for most women? I'm only up to Gen3.
I believe in the ease of learning a single trigger pull of a striker. Is anyone challenging that idea?
Any advances in DAO worth looking at?
Being a range gun with no expectation of carry, is a DA/SA just run SA worth considering?
The GEN 4/5 is going to be slightly smaller with the GEN 5 being the most accurate Glock made. So you will need to see how well their hand size fits.
IMHO, if a shooter can run a DA/SA gun, they can shoot ANYTHING well. The worst thing I ever did was start training with a WC CQB. The trigger pull set me up for failure when I transitioned to any other gun (Beretta, Glock, SIG, M&P, etc).
C4
I find people these days only think of a handgun as a purely defensive instrument and if it is not in a service caliber or capable of being used as a carry gun is not to be considered.
Widen horizons a bit !
Some will disagree I know but nothing is better at teaching the fundamentals of sights grip stance and trigger than a target grade .22. Picking up something like a ruger standard auto ( not my personal choice but probably the most common these days) cheap to buy accurate and reliable and cheap to feed.
Some will say the fundamentals won’t transfer to service weapons- hogwash. Find a club running steel challenge matches. Start with the .22 ( focusing on hitting first speed second) then graduate to a larger caliber when skills are attained and maintained.
Agree. A .22 pistol should be the starting point and then moved off of this when they show profeciency.
C4
The first handgun that I shot was an M9 at boot camp. Instructional methods were effective and I already had some rifle experience, so I shot it extremely well. I gave my 92FS Brigadier to my sister a few years ago but it’ll always be one of my favorites.
I regularly work with a lot of beginners of all ages. My new shooter guns are G19s and K frames. I'll use the occasional rimfire, but found the "start-with-a-22 shtick" to be far less valid than we think. Instructional method matters enormously. If not a fan of the G, pick your 9mm mid to full size favorite.
Why? When are they no longer a "new shooter" for purposes of that safety usage?
The bolded is a gem and completely true.
Away from the LE training ranges, I start new shooters on .22. It is fairly inexpensive, but most importantly reduces the likelihood on developing recoil/muzzle blast aversion.
As a newly married 19 year-old Marine, I taught my wife to shoot with a borrowed .22 pistol and a Marlin 39 lever action. When I finally got enough money to buy a 1911 (IIRC $159.00 at the PX) her remarks upon shooting it was 'it's loud' as she went about hitting the bullseye. As I had kids with my first wife, and then 20 years later with wife #2, they started with that same Marlin M39 and a Ruger Mark I. I have four kids, with a 20 year gap between sets. Plus grandkids, Those 22's have seen a lot of use. They are all shooters.
I like the Ruger Mark I to start with. I have 22 conversions for Glock and 1911, as well as a GSG 1911 .22, and an M&P 22.
When I go to the range with family, we shoot a lot more .22 than anything else. In addition to the pistols I have a dedicated 22 service rifle trainer, and a couple of 22 conversions for ARs as well as a couple of Marlin semiautos set up for Appleseed's
Aside from my experiences, Bill Rogers advocates starting new shooters on .22.
For range plinking you'll have a heck of a lot of fun with family and friends - if that is what you are aiming for.
JMO - I'd get a Ruger Mark IV and go shooting. Build a good foundation and moving on will be easy.
I like the 1911. It has a great trigger over all. Which will help learning sight picture, trigger control, follow up, etc. And, with enough practice, you get use to sweeping the safety off. Which could be useful for other types of guns . You could go 9mm, but with enough rounds through the gun, you can get use to the 45acp. Everything else after that won’t be so bad.
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Another M&P 2.0 compact vote here. I've shot a lot of different pistols and this package does a lot and does it well.
Adrenaline_6
02-28-18, 15:26
Away from the LE training ranges, I start new shooters on .22. It is fairly inexpensive, but most importantly reduces the likelihood on developing recoil/muzzle blast aversion.
As a newly married 19 year-old Marine, I taught my wife to shoot with a borrowed .22 pistol and a Marlin 39 lever action. When I finally got enough money to buy a 1911 (IIRC $159.00 at the PX) her remarks upon shooting it was 'it's loud' as she went about hitting the bullseye. As I had kids with my first wife, and then 20 years later with wife #2, they started with that same Marlin M39 and a Ruger Mark I. I have four kids, with a 20 year gap between sets. Plus grandkids, Those 22's have seen a lot of use. They are all shooters.
I like the Ruger Mark I to start with. I have 22 conversions for Glock and 1911, as well as a GSG 1911 .22, and an M&P 22.
When I go to the range with family, we shoot a lot more .22 than anything else. In addition to the pistols I have a dedicated 22 service rifle trainer, and a couple of 22 conversions for ARs as well as a couple of Marlin semiautos set up for Appleseed's
Aside from my experiences, Bill Rogers advocates starting new shooters on .22.
For range plinking you'll have a heck of a lot of fun with family and friends - if that is what you are aiming for.
JMO - I'd get a Ruger Mark IV and go shooting. Build a good foundation and moving on will be easy.
I agree. The Ruger SR22 is another option. Fun little pistol that eats everything.
EzGoingKev
02-28-18, 18:41
Flat triggers seem address a lot of the issues with people pushing Glock triggers (instead of pulling them).
Funny, I tried a flat trigger to fix that and I shot just as bad with the flat trigger as I did with a standard trigger.
Regarding the OP's question I would say know your audience. Different tools for different people.
Ruger MK series pistols shoot pretty well. My mother just got her LTC and I had her get a Ruger SR22 to learn on. It shoots pretty good.
Actually a .22 got me thinking about this subject. The last few years when I have had time to shoot I spend most of it teaching my kids on a .22 rifle. I have owned a Glock conversion for a long time, but it never ran quite good enough and I have not had both the time and motivation (at the same time) to work on it until recently. Thinking about getting a frame for it is what got me here, if I decide say to go to an M&P then getting the M&P .22 would make more sense.
I'm not trying to overthink this, just make sure I'm not handicapping them with my Glock perspective.
Starting with a Ruger 22 to teach the fundamentals is a great way to begin. The skills do transfer and for a beginning shooter it is so much easier to become proficient without having to worry about recoil, noise etc. A M&P 2.0 Compact 9mm would be my choice. I carry and shoot my G19 very well but I am more accurate with my M&P. The 2.0 9mm Compact is at the top of my list for my next purchase.
Some .22 pistols and top ends like and dislike certain .22 ammo. My Remington Speedmaster .22 rifle eats anything including short, long and long rifle with it's tubular magazine. My Advantage arms .22 top for the Colt loves the Remington Bucket 'o Bullets jacketed ammo but little else. Even the Smith revolver has it's likes and dislikes, the chambers are tight so with the wrong ammo extraction gets sticky.
Most .22 pistols will shoot with jacketed high velocity ammo.
The M9/ 92 platform gets a lot of flack, but having one in .22 seems like an ideal teaching pistol. It's close enough to combat handguns that proficiency and good habits are easily transferred to a number of service caliber weapons. .22 is easy to shoot and not intimidating for new shooters. Lastly, it has the manual safety. The military does some things right, and one of them is insisting that the service pistol they issue to inexperienced and non-combat focused personnel has such a safety. I'm sure there are other comparable rimfires I'm forgetting that have the same characteristics, but this is what I would use.
Actually a .22 got me thinking about this subject. The last few years when I have had time to shoot I spend most of it teaching my kids on a .22 rifle. I have owned a Glock conversion for a long time, but it never ran quite good enough and I have not had both the time and motivation (at the same time) to work on it until recently. Thinking about getting a frame for it is what got me here, if I decide say to go to an M&P then getting the M&P .22 would make more sense.
I'm not trying to overthink this, just make sure I'm not handicapping them with my Glock perspective.
It is funny how thought processes sometimes overlap. I'm also thinking about getting a frame for my Glock conversion. The Glock clone thread got me to thinking that finishing an 80% frame and putting the 22 conversion on it might be fun. Then I can put my .40 longslide back together.
The M&P 22 is made for Smith by Walther. Ours is accurate enough, and actually has a pretty good trigger, although it is a little different then our M&P 9. I shoot CCI 36gr copper plated ('Choot 'Em) and CCI 40gr cooper plated (AR Tactical) as well as the Federal 36gr (Auto Match) in the pistols.
The Glock sometimes gives newer shooters problems with function, but it works fine for me. I assume that is because I'm more serious about holding the pistol - LOL. Of course the most reliably functioning 22 pistol I own is my old Ruger MkI.
VP9 or PPQ (for centerfire)
If they are entirely new to firearms and not just new to handguns, a .22lr first becomes more important, as noted above. It's so much easier to see trigger pulls that move the gun without the centerfire recoil jumping everything around, and so much easier to avoid developing a flinch than to fix it
As for the comments about pushing rounds to the side (shooting left for a right handed shooter), I've been shooting Glocks for...13 years...had good instruction on them, shot them pretty well (on standardized courses etc), but always on every single one had to drift the rear site to the right (I could put hits on a B8 at 25 slow still) and from time to time would do a poor job on a string and the group would be pushed left again. Never a problem with the VP series. Ever. Dead centered sights, hits centered, all the time, every time. Just plain shoots better. PPQ would be the same.
With my kids I started with a S&W Model 63 (first single action, then double action), then a Ruger Mark II, then a Glock 17 (while wearing ear plugs *and* muffs). We then moved on to 1911s, CZs, etc. until they found what they liked best.
While I understand those who support starting with a centerfire pistol, I remain firm in my opinion that the best beginner gun is a good .22. On a related note, I’m also a fan of 8” steel targets at 10-ish yards for beginners.
My first pistol was a S&W M18 .22 6 shot revolver, I still have it. A good DA revolver will teach trigger control and economy of ammunition. What about a good .22 top end for one of your existing pistols? I have one for my Colt government .38 super and I use for teaching new shooters along with the afore mentioned Smith wheelgun.
Can't beat the Model 18 .22 for this--or anything else. A revolver will also let you do "skip loading" AKA "ball and dummy". Load one round, skip two chambers, and load the last two rounds side by side. That gives you a 50% chance of a live round coming up. When you hit an empty chamber you get instant feedback on how your trigger pull and follow-through was. Dirt cheap and tremendously effective. My other old favorites are a Colt .22 conversion unit (choose your ammo carefully; that "floating chamber" plugs up solid with some ammo... And I too like the old Ruger .22 autos.
A nice old .38 Special, even a Model 10, is ok too. Just use wadcutters or lightly loaded ammo. They'll shoot right along with anything out there; probably better.
On a related note, I’m also a fan of 8” steel targets at 10-ish yards for beginners.
Absolutely, instant feedback. I have 8 inch circles, 2/3 IPSC, and the club has plate racks. I put shims under the adjustment bolts to get them to fall for .22. I get tired of loading magazines, everyone likes falling plates.
hotrodder636
03-01-18, 23:32
I picked up an M&P 22 for my wife a couple years ago because she wanted a .22 to shoot when she was not shooting her P30. Feel and controls similar to the centerfire models. She likes it and enjoys shooting it. The funny part is that it has turned into one of my favorite guns to shoot, moreso than my Roger Mk II and my VP9.
Actually a .22 got me thinking about this subject. The last few years when I have had time to shoot I spend most of it teaching my kids on a .22 rifle. I have owned a Glock conversion for a long time, but it never ran quite good enough and I have not had both the time and motivation (at the same time) to work on it until recently. Thinking about getting a frame for it is what got me here, if I decide say to go to an M&P then getting the M&P .22 would make more sense.
I'm not trying to overthink this, just make sure I'm not handicapping them with my Glock perspective.
As for your beginner handgun, and this is just opinion from a guy who worked at a range for 5 years straight.
If you are starting off static position, this is the thing that you have to try with new shooters. We always preach fundamentals, grip, stance, sight picture, trigger pull, and all that. That is in a standing position. This is also for auto loaders type guns. As we start to do the shooting and moving, all the basics kick in, and plus more stress, and then we learn about the "front sight"!
So with that said, this is what I usually do with new shooters when I worked at a range. Who were not sure what kind of pistol they wanted, we would first do an exercise in grip. I would have them show me first how they were going to hold the pistol from their own knowledge, even if they didn't know. From there would teach them a modified combat hand grip style, not tea cupping, or holding the wrist, and no index finger on trigger guard like the movies.
After that would tell the customers to put different guns in their hands, gripping them like that was shown, and let them give me the description of what the gun feels like. Keeping, "Its heavy" out of the equation of comfortable pistol. You should get feedback, like on Glocks, its boxy, on the PPQ's or Vp9's, man it feels comfortable. Then from there we would narrow it down to 2-3 pistols. Then I would have the customer, close their eyes and grip the different guns again, remember at this point its about the grip and the feel of the pistol in their hands. With eyes closed, I would put different pistols in their hands, using the 2-3 different pistols they chose. Then let them tell me which one is the most comfortable. Then they would choose it, from that point after pistol choice, we would work on the stance, sight picture, and trigger pull.
I would say this would help the majority of the people who wanted to "learn" how to shoot. Let the beginner choose the pistol that is most comfortable in their hands, not yours, and then start teaching them grip and the fundamentals. 22 pistols like the P22 and ruger SR 22, and the Ruger Mark series are great pistols to start with just basics also, and for little hands those are the best. Majority of "shooters" don't feel like spending the money on a 22 to learn and then go to centerfire. Just what I've seen in the everyday business of range and firearm sales.
I could go on for hours about "shooting" in the range!
LMT Shooter
03-02-18, 01:30
Why? When are they no longer a "new shooter" for purposes of that safety usage?
Because I want a new shooter to have the idea ingrained in them, right off the bat, to use a manual safety. OP said a newbie with no experience. In this day, a lot of pistols have no manual safety, but the things taught to newbies are very likely to their first steps to a rifle or shotgun later on, and almost every single one of those w/o an exposed hammer that I know of will have a manual safety. I am way more comfy with the idea of a shooter transitioning from the use of a manual safety to using a gun w/o one than vise versa. I also may not be the sole source of instruction for the newbie, and if I've only shown them a Glock, and they go shoot with someone else who uses a Ruger 22/45, I see a potential problem.
But, I have no doubt that you are more experienced at this than I am.
To your second question, I'm not sure, other than it's gonna be a judgement call for the trainer. Newbies must be taught that there are a lot of different control/operating systems out there, and that they MUST know how to properly use the firearm when they move on to new guns.
Can't beat the Model 18 .22 for this--or anything else. A revolver will also let you do "skip loading" AKA "ball and dummy". Load one round, skip two chambers, and load the last two rounds side by side. That gives you a 50% chance of a live round coming up. When you hit an empty chamber you get instant feedback on how your trigger pull and follow-through was. Dirt cheap and tremendously effective. My other old favorites are a Colt .22 conversion unit (choose your ammo carefully; that "floating chamber" plugs up solid with some ammo... And I too like the old Ruger .22 autos.
A nice old .38 Special, even a Model 10, is ok too. Just use wadcutters or lightly loaded ammo. They'll shoot right along with anything out there; probably better.
That works with semi autos too, just use a snap cap or dummy round.
Or, on a VP9, just load a spent piece of brass (or three) into the magazine randomly. It will feed perfectly but go click instead of bang.
Because I want a new shooter to have the idea ingrained in them, right off the bat, to use a manual safety. OP said a newbie with no experience. In this day, a lot of pistols have no manual safety, but the things taught to newbies are very likely to their first steps to a rifle or shotgun later on, and almost every single one of those w/o an exposed hammer that I know of will have a manual safety. I am way more comfy with the idea of a shooter transitioning from the use of a manual safety to using a gun w/o one than vise versa. I also may not be the sole source of instruction for the newbie, and if I've only shown them a Glock, and they go shoot with someone else who uses a Ruger 22/45, I see a potential problem.
But, I have no doubt that you are more experienced at this than I am.
To your second question, I'm not sure, other than it's gonna be a judgement call for the trainer. Newbies must be taught that there are a lot of different control/operating systems out there, and that they MUST know how to properly use the firearm when they move on to new guns.
Do you teach them about a da/sa with decocker?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-02-18, 07:56
I don't look at as rimfire vs center, more that starting off with 22lr to get the basics and ensure that you aren't building in any recoil issues and then move to centerfire(not40, which I think is the 'snappiest') and learn recoil management- and then go back to 22lr to work up repetitions. With my son we do about a 4:1 Rimfire to centerfire. Mainly done with M&P 22 and 9FS. Started with a 22/45 because I had it. Let him work around with 38 snubby and a 45ACP 2011 to understand the envelope of firearms.
I'll jump in here since I've been instructing for a few years now with this org: https://www.reveresriders.org/
We teach several beginner classes per year & let shooters start out with their own guns and switch them into .22 LR loaners if they are not progressing during class.
One of my own guns that I let new shooters try is a Ruger .327 Federal Magnum revolver. Reason is I can start them with SUPER light recoiling 32 S&W, then 32 S&W Long, then start stepping them up to 32 H&R (self defense worthy) Magnum and finally the little hot rod round, .327 Federal Magnum. All 4 calibers are shot out of this same exact pistol.
My daughter does fine with a 6 shot .327 Fed Mag LCR double action only pistol loaded with 32 H&R for self defense.
LMT Shooter
03-02-18, 11:54
Do you teach them about a da/sa with decocker?
I carry a SIG P226 at work, keep it at home bedside, and have a P228 for carry. But I do not recommend the da/sa system to new shooters. I think it's the hardest system to learn, but I stick with it because I've been using it for decades, I'm familiar with it. If a new shooter insisted on using it, I'd help them learn it. I work as a part time instructor for a small department where you buy your own weapon, and I've seen the transition from a pistol with no safety/decocker to a pistol with a safety/decocker give folks problems. It was new & unfamiliar to them, and required multiple admonitions to the shooter to ensure proper use of the pistol. I'd rather they were trying &/or wanting to use a nonexistent safety, or decocker, than vise versa.
The last part where you quoted me I wrote "they MUST know how to properly use the firearm when they move on to new guns." I may not be the one to help them learn later on with that new gun, so I stress the importance of knowing how to use different ones. But in general I see a newbie as someone talking their first steps into the gun world and I want to instill in them good habits for later on.
My gut feeling is that there are probably more guns with a safety or decocker than without. Does this sound like horseshit?
I carry a SIG P226 at work, keep it at home bedside, and have a P228 for carry. But I do not recommend the da/sa system to new shooters. I think it's the hardest system to learn, but I stick with it because I've been using it for decades, I'm familiar with it. If a new shooter insisted on using it, I'd help them learn it. I work as a part time instructor for a small department where you buy your own weapon, and I've seen the transition from a pistol with no safety/decocker to a pistol with a safety/decocker give folks problems. It was new & unfamiliar to them, and required multiple admonitions to the shooter to ensure proper use of the pistol. I'd rather they were trying &/or wanting to use a nonexistent safety, or decocker, than vise versa.
The last part where you quoted me I wrote "they MUST know how to properly use the firearm when they move on to new guns." I may not be the one to help them learn later on with that new gun, so I stress the importance of knowing how to use different ones. But in general I see a newbie as someone talking their first steps into the gun world and I want to instill in them good habits for later on.
My gut feeling is that there are probably more guns with a safety or decocker than without. Does this sound like horseshit?
More "guns" with a safety or decocker than without, out there in existence or out there in the US, probably so, since long guns generally need them and a fair amount of handguns have them. But I suspect most handguns a new shooter is likely to come across today will not have a manual safety or decocker.
22 is a good start. After trying a myriad of different pistols, both my mom and my wife ending up buying M&P9s. My mom was equally interested in a P30 LEM but it was a little more than she was willing to spend.
Ultimately, my mom ended up selling her M&P to me for $1 because she just couldn't get used to 9mm and didn't have the strength to manipulate the slide comfortably. So she ended up with an M&P22.
LMT Shooter
03-02-18, 17:24
More "guns" with a safety or decocker than without, out there in existence or out there in the US, probably so, since long guns generally need them and a fair amount of handguns have them. But I suspect most handguns a new shooter is likely to come across today will not have a manual safety or decocker.
Long guns, as I said earlier and you seem to agree, almost always have a manual safety, hence I like newbie to know this on day one. Handguns do not always have safety or decocker, but a lot still do. I can't say definitively that you're wrong about "most," but my gut says if you are correct, it isn't a huge difference, unless the numbers are for new gun sales, then I would agree 100%. I can't think of a manufacturer other than Glock that doesn't have a model with a safety or decocker. Kahr, too, I think.
LI can't think of a manufacturer other than Glock that doesn't have a model with a safety or decocker. Kahr, too, I think.
As in, they sell at least one model that does have or have the option of a manual safety?
Because a whole hell of a lot of models out there obviously don't have them, with some models from other manufacturers not having the option, same as Glocks.
I carry a SIG P226 at work, keep it at home bedside, and have a P228 for carry. But I do not recommend the da/sa system to new shooters. I think it's the hardest system to learn, but I stick with it because I've been using it for decades, I'm familiar with it. If a new shooter insisted on using it, I'd help them learn it. I work as a part time instructor for a small department where you buy your own weapon, and I've seen the transition from a pistol with no safety/decocker to a pistol with a safety/decocker give folks problems. It was new & unfamiliar to them, and required multiple admonitions to the shooter to ensure proper use of the pistol. I'd rather they were trying &/or wanting to use a nonexistent safety, or decocker, than vise versa.
The last part where you quoted me I wrote "they MUST know how to properly use the firearm when they move on to new guns." I may not be the one to help them learn later on with that new gun, so I stress the importance of knowing how to use different ones. But in general I see a newbie as someone talking their first steps into the gun world and I want to instill in them good habits for later on.
My gut feeling is that there are probably more guns with a safety or decocker than without. Does this sound like horseshit?
I have no problem with your methodology, especially with shooters that may rarely handle their pistol.
One of the self-inflicted pistol wounds I handled at our range involved a recruit using a Sig220 during our night shoot, which at that time occurred after their firearms training block. He apparently made all the mistakes, forgot to decock, maybe even finger on the trigger when holstering, and bang a duty round in his thigh, out his thigh, in his calf, out his calf. It was good practice for my semi-rusty EMT skills.
Point being, this older recruit was relatively fresh from a concentrated block of firearms training, he had done dry drills on the line, at dusk with floodlights on, going through every stage of fire. An hour or so later he was late firing a shot, the self-imposed stress of that caused him to short circuit his recovery to the holster and an ND with injury was the result.
As detailed, these incidents most often happen when a relatively inexperienced person is operating outside their comfort zone. It also bites seasoned folks in the butt once and a while.
Unknowingly holstering a cocked DA/SA pistol, or a SA with the safety off, is a recipe for disaster. So I can see your point. I may not totally agree, but I do see your point.
LMT Shooter
03-03-18, 03:10
As in, they sell at least one model that does have or have the option of a manual safety?
Because a whole hell of a lot of models out there obviously don't have them, with some models from other manufacturers not having the option, same as Glocks.
If I understand your question then my answer is yes, provided that your omission of the decocker option was inadvertent.
You're also correct in that almost all manufacturers make models with neither safety or decocker, and these may well account for the majority of new handgun sales. And I do think that a well designed & manufactured pistol with no safety or decocker, with good training, and sufficient practice, is the way to go for a defensive handgun.
Consider a military surplus pistol like a cz50/70 or similar.
They can be had for $200. .32 acp won't kick much. Decent SA trigger. Enough grip to hold, reliable. Not very loud or blasty. More reliable than .22's.
Sights can be on the small side. Just put some white paint on the front blade and they work fine.
But if you don't mind a .22 and want something new and inexpensive a Bersa would be a good choice.
A revolver in .32 or .38/.357 (steel frame) would also be a great gun to learn with. Just be sure to use the weakest loads available and let them start shooting SA to get the fundamentals down.
If I understand your question then my answer is yes, provided that your omission of the decocker option was inadvertent.
I'm not sure I followed our posts well, but: I can not think of a manufacturer that does not sell a single model of handgun with either a manual safety or a decocker, at least as an option, other than Glock. There are individual models not available with a manual safety or a decocker, but the manufacturer of those models offers other models that can be had with manual safety or decocker.
LMT Shooter
03-03-18, 14:46
I'm not sure I followed our posts well, but: I can not think of a manufacturer that does not sell a single model of handgun with either a manual safety or a decocker, at least as an option, other than Glock. There are individual models not available with a manual safety or a decocker, but the manufacturer of those models offers other models that can be had with manual safety or decocker.
I agree.
Find a rental range where the person can handle and shoot a few different pistols and form a decision on what they like best.
WickedWillis
03-05-18, 14:54
Find a rental range where the person can handle and shoot a few different pistols and form a decision on what they like best.
Always excellent and cost saving advice imo. We can debate forever, but the individual needs to put rounds down range to really see what gun works the best for them
LGS had a very lightly used M&P Compact 22 so my immediate problem is solved. Great grip size for smaller hands (HEY S&W MAKE AN 8 ROUND SHIELD MAG 9mm ABOUT THIS SIZE) but doesn't feel like a toy.
I really want to like the 320 for a 9mm so far. The grip seems to be quite easy to get comfortable on in relation to trigger reach and getting a straight to the rear press. That is with the medium grip, if I could find a small grip I think it could be the best fit for smaller hands that I've seen. What was wrong with the 250, besides not being striker?
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