View Full Version : Ammo for the SHTF Stash
No Bananas
10-18-08, 09:14
I'm building two SBR ARs
10.5" LMT
&
12.5" Noveske
These two will be fun and for SHTF.
I'm relatively new to ARs and I don't have any ammo built up. I'd like to store 1 or 2K (yes, I'd love more but can't afford it right now) of reliable accurate enough ammo for SHTF. Reliability is #1 here.
Of course both guns will have a 1:7 twist, and I'd love to buy 2K of MK262 or 75 gr. TAP, but I don't have that kinda dough.
What do you recommend? Here is what I'm considering. Tell me what ya' think and if I've left any out:
-Winchester Q3131 55 gr. 5.56. This stuff has shot well in any and every AR I've tried it in. Decent on accuracy, but velcoity is always pretty high.
-Prvi Partizan M193. Can't find any here locally to put through my guns first, but it has a great rep.
-Prvi Partizan M855. Can't find any here locally to put through my guns first, but it has a great rep.
-Prvi Partizan .223 75 gr. Match. Has a decent rep for accuray and reliablity. I wonder how it would do in the SBRs:confused:. Hears it's a bit light.
-Winchester Q3131 55 gr. 5.56. This stuff has shot well in any and every AR I've tried it in. Decent on accuracy, but velcoity is always pretty high.
You should want the high velocity in a 55-gr projectile.
-Prvi Partizan M193. Can't find any here locally to put through my guns first, but it has a great rep.
I've shot a few thousand rounds of this ammo. It is indeed built to M193 specs. Good training ammo.
If you're using those SBR's you should really consider a JHP or JSP round for real use. The short barrel really robs the performance of FMJ rounds. If you really like the 75-gr TAP, save up the money and buy it.
Do you really need 2,000 rds in a stash? That's 66, 30-rd magazines! Unless you're digging in for some "Red Dawn" action, that's a lot of ammo.
No Bananas
10-18-08, 15:14
All good points, and thanks for sharing your advice and experiences. 2K sure would be a lot of ammo. The idea would be only some of it saved for a "stash" and a lot would be for pactice and plinking. Thought I would save on a bulk purchase.
For the heavier bullets, I thought that the Prvi Partizan 75 Gr. Match might be a good compromise. Not as accurate or as good a bullet as TAP, but a lot cheaper. I just don't know that much about its performace. If it would reliably cycle in a SBR and I'd want to be getting at least 2300 FPS out of the 10.5" on it.
Q3131 - I wouldn't trust this for anything unless it was the only thing available.
Priv M193 - good blasting ammo, but I've heard the bullet won't frag like real M193, and it's not due to lack of velocity.
Priv M855 - I wouldn't take that crap for free based on the problems I've read about it.
Brown box XM193 is a little expensive, but Ammunition to go has it. People claim the black box is a cut below the brown or white box. And there have been accounts of feeding issues with black box on more than one of the gun boards.
Thought I would save on a bulk purchase.
"Save" and "Hornady" in the same discussion is a non sequitur = doesn't belong, makes no sense... :D
MisterWilson
10-18-08, 15:23
Decent on accuracy, but velocity is always pretty high.
Why do you say that like high velocity is a bad thing? :confused:
No Bananas
10-18-08, 15:42
Yeah, that came out wrong. I have a couple hundred rounds of this stuff and it's great. I appreciate the high velocity in 55 gr. (especially for SBR). With the short barrel and 1/7 twist, I just figured that heavier would be better. But Q3131 stuff is reasonably accurate. I wonder how fast it'll get out of the 10.5".
I have stashed 2k of prvi m193 and 500rds each of Q3131A and AE 55gr, 3k total and I still feel I'm dangerously low on ammo. I've not had any problems with any of this ammo but then again I don't have as much experience as several guys here.
Ammo is a better investment than my stocks right now.
Had I the funds 5 years ago and what I know about the Ammo market now, I would have been sitting on 250,000 rounds each of 7.62Nato, X39, .303Brit and 5.56.
Anyone remember Shotgun news SOG ammo deals from 2000?:rolleyes:
I would at least try to have a thousand rounds of federal xm193 brown box included in your stash. Its loaded hot and pretty accurate. One of my favorites.
No Bananas
10-18-08, 23:10
Q3131 - I wouldn't trust this for anything unless it was the only thing available.
Priv M193 - good blasting ammo, but I've heard the bullet won't frag like real M193, and it's not due to lack of velocity.
Priv M855 - I wouldn't take that crap for free based on the problems I've read about it.
Brown box XM193 is a little expensive, but Ammunition to go has it. People claim the black box is a cut below the brown or white box. And there have been accounts of feeding issues with black box on more than one of the gun boards.
Really?
All the Q3131 ammo and guns I shot it out of shot it just fine. :confused:
I have also fired several hundred rounds of the Q3131 without any issues.
I believe there have been issues with SOME of this ammo in the past and demigod may have more info on it. Given a choice, the XM193 in the brown box is probably a safer way to go.
Make sure you check around and do your homework, before you buy anything in bulk. Actually I've had outstanding results with the Prvi Partisan ammo, both the the 62gr SS109 stuff, and the 75gr BTHP match ammo. For good buys on this stuff, check Wideners.
MisterWilson
10-19-08, 02:14
I'd read on the internet somewhere (so you know it's true) that either Pvri or Wolf 75 grain ammo uses a thicker jacket so while being relatively accurate, it's not really a good defensive ammo.
Really?
All the Q3131 ammo and guns I shot it out of shot it just fine. :confused:
It has a reputation for blowing primers with the instructors I've trained under. I bought a few boxes a year back and the ammo looked like crap. Mixed head stamps, grubby looking, etc. I did get a malf out of the small sample I had. I can't prove it was the ammo. But I know it was.
There's guys on the gun boards who've reported that their agencies have sent the 3131 they had back to WIN due to problems with it.
No Bananas
10-19-08, 16:06
Well most seem to agree that the Prvi M193 is good stuff in terms of reliability. Perhaps it won't fragment, but at the prices it's going for right now it would be a good all around value: SHTF/Plinkin/Practice?Stock up ammo
The Q3131 that I have stocked up on, has ran flawlessly for me. It is a couple of years old.
I have had problems with standard Q3131 but would use Q3131A for carry.
Same for me. Q3131A if an when I run out of TAP 5.56.
Perhaps the best case of ammo you could invest in for SHTF purposes comes in a blue box with "Dillon" on the side.
A lot of us can't get ahold of/purchase large amounts of factory ammo that we're happy with, and that solves the problem nicely for me. I think the biggest thing you'd be losing out on would be the crimped primers.
I think the biggest thing you'd be losing out on would be the crimped primers.
The crimp doesn't strike me as a very big deal. You still see popped primers with them when the conditions are wrong.
i've shot 2000+ rounds of amateurly made (by me of course) handloads and never had a popped primer
Perhaps the best case of ammo you could invest in for SHTF purposes comes in a blue box with "Dillon" on the side.
I personally think that a person should have the stuff to load for every gun they have ( that you can handload for -- 22lr etc excepted). I have thought this since before I became a Dillon dealer.
Whether due to laws, scarcity of materials, wars in foreign places, or whatever, there will come a time when it is hard to get ammo. SHTF is another reason. 101 reasons to do so. Your guns are not any good without ammo. Keeping components on hand is just a smart move.
Keeping a bunch of ammo around for emergencies is also a good idea, but for long term issues, knowing how and having the capability to reload could be the difference between being a zombie and being a zombie-killer...
Very good point. You hit the nail right on the head.
It's hard to imagine a situation in which ammo would be unavailable, but primers would be plentiful.
Face_N_The_Crowd
10-22-08, 11:16
[QUOTE=boltcatch;236086]Perhaps the best case of ammo you could invest in for SHTF purposes comes in a blue box with "Dillon" on the side.
A lot of us can't
It's hard to imagine a situation in which ammo would be unavailable, but primers would be plentiful.
You can buy and store primers in a lot less space than ammo. In the typical "case size" for 223 you can probably store 20-30K primers or more (no, I did not measure it but each small primer brick is 1K and they are pretty small).
primers are not difficult to make or 'reload'
You can buy and store primers in a lot less space than ammo.
That's the point I was going to make, but this whole line of thinking is getting a little nutty.
Remington primers are packaged in a very compact fashion. When I first bought 5 thousand of them, I though they brought my just 1 thousand.
SHTF means just that, and at that point you can't have enough.
You can buy and store primers in a lot less space than ammo. In the typical "case size" for 223 you can probably store 20-30K primers or more (no, I did not measure it but each small primer brick is 1K and they are pretty small).
And primers can be used for more than one caliber as needed. There are only 4 basic sizes, large and small pistol, and large and small rifle, with variations in each that in a SHTF scenario are not important (though need to be acknowledged in use)
I personally think that a person should have the stuff to load for every gun they have ( that you can handload for -- 22lr etc excepted). I have thought this since before I became a Dillon dealer.
Whether due to laws, scarcity of materials, wars in foreign places, or whatever, there will come a time when it is hard to get ammo. SHTF is another reason. 101 reasons to do so. Your guns are not any good without ammo. Keeping components on hand is just a smart move.
Keeping a bunch of ammo around for emergencies is also a good idea, but for long term issues, knowing how and having the capability to reload could be the difference between being a zombie and being a zombie-killer...
You had me at hello!:o
chillindrdude
10-22-08, 21:02
2000rds too much?
is there such a thing as having too much ammo??? :p
my .02
think of this as "taliv's baby steps":
1 enough ammo on hand to fill your 1st/2nd/3rd line gear. this is your Emergency Fund
2 get reloading equipment for your Ammo Snowball
3 buy two 550 rnd 22lr bulk packs every time you go to walmart
4 put 3 to 6 months of factory ammo in savings, replenish as you use it
5 be patient and wait for GREAT deals on components. buy 5-10 years worth at a time
my prediction:
metal commodity prices will drop just like oil has for the duration of the global economic crisis (probably several few years). however, ammo will continue to be expensive this year because of supply issues much like gas.
Long-term (decades), industrialization and emerging middle-classes in china and india will cause commodity prices to go through the roof. This will be exacerbated by inflation from central banks printing money; they've lost all control.
net/net, 20 years from now, you'll be whining about the good ol' days when a case of 223 was only $1500. but there will probably be a time in the next 1-4 years where ammo (or at least components) is a good bit cheaper (perhaps 30%?) than it is today. buy all you can afford.
You can buy and store primers in a lot less space than ammo. In the typical "case size" for 223 you can probably store 20-30K primers or more (no, I did not measure it but each small primer brick is 1K and they are pretty small).
OK. I'll grant you that. Now how about the space needed for your reloading equipment, not to mention the bullets (or lead), powder, etc.?
I suppose my thought process is that if the S really does HTF, I may not find myself with the time to reload.
I may not be able to lug a press to wherever my new home happens to be.
And if something goes wrong with your reloading gear (lose a critical die, etc.) then your entire stash becomes worthless until you can resolve the issue. Loaded ammo is always loaded. Lose some and the rest is still loaded. Have some get damaged and the rest is still loaded.
You could always have redundant reloading gear, I suppose, but then you're further adding to the space & expense which begins to weigh against the space & cost savings that reloading was supposed to provide.
This thread is getting Arfcom nutty.
Submariner
10-23-08, 09:33
my .02
think of this as "taliv's baby steps":
1 enough ammo on hand to fill your 1st/2nd/3rd line gear. this is your Emergency Fund
2 get reloading equipment for your Ammo Snowball
3 buy two 550 rnd 22lr bulk packs every time you go to walmart
4 put 3 to 6 months of factory ammo in savings, replenish as you use it
5 be patient and wait for GREAT deals on components. buy 5-10 years worth at a time
my prediction:
metal commodity prices will drop just like oil has for the duration of the global economic crisis (probably several few years). however, ammo will continue to be expensive this year because of supply issues much like gas.
Long-term (decades), industrialization and emerging middle-classes in china and india will cause commodity prices to go through the roof. This will be exacerbated by inflation from central banks printing money; they've lost all control.
net/net, 20 years from now, you'll be whining about the good ol' days when a case of 223 was only $1500. but there will probably be a time in the next 1-4 years where ammo (or at least components) is a good bit cheaper (perhaps 30%?) than it is today. buy all you can afford.
Dave Ramsey reloads. Too funny!:D
No borrowing to purchase components!
I suppose my thought process is that if the S really does HTF, I may not find myself with the time to reload.
Not all SHTF are zombie infested.
I also mentioned not just SHTF, but high ammo taxes, ammo scarcity, 101 other reasons why ammo might become unavailable for a gun you have.
My bad. I was very specifically thinking about zombies and their ilk, not about other more mundane catastrophes. Being self-sufficient is always a better choice than the alternative.
Mk262 77gr and the like
3131a
m193
Crimped primers, sealed necks.
Make sure youhave enough pistil/sg and rimfire too.
This thread is getting Arfcom nutty.
Indeed it is.
What's "ARFCOM" is discussing the nature of the thread instead of discussing the topic of the thread.
If you don't want to participate in the thread, don't participate. Please do not join a thread solely for the purpose of saying you don't like the thread. Thank you.
What's "ARFCOM" is discussing the nature of the thread instead of discussing the topic of the thread.
If you don't want to participate in the thread, don't participate. Please do not join a thread solely for the purpose of saying you don't like the thread. Thank you.
I did participate and discuss the topic. In fact, I made the first reply to the OP. What's making things nutty is going from answering a specific request re: recommendations for commercial ammo in a stash (not hoard) to stockpiling primers and reloading supplies. Way off tangent from the OP. But, I'm just sayin'...
Granted, and my apologies. I'll amend my request to: "Please don't continue in a thread solely for the purpose of saying that you don't like the thread. Thank you."
Priv M855 - I wouldn't take that crap for free based on the problems I've read about it.
What problems have you heard about? My understanding is that it's fine.
Joe Mamma
RogerinTPA
10-24-08, 17:55
I'm pretty GTG as for as AR ammo (25K and replenish as used), but need to get more .22, 9mm, .40, .45 and 7.62x39 to stock and for trading purposes in the future if needed. With ours and the world economy taking a dump and oil going down, I'm hoping that weapons and ammo prices start to plunge as well so I can get more.
I'm pretty GTG as for as AR ammo (25K and replenish as used), but need to get more .22, 9mm, .40, .45 and 7.62x39. With ours and the world economy taking a dump and oil going down, I'm hoping that weapons and ammo prices start to plunge as well so I can get more.
6-9 months.
Metals prices dropped like a rock. It'll take at least that long for ammo stocks to follow.
RogerinTPA
10-24-08, 18:34
6-9 months.
Metals prices dropped like a rock. It'll take at least that long for ammo stocks to follow.
I've been noticing "Sales" on quite a few ammo sites lately, especially on bulk rates. Hopefully, that's code for their stock isn't moving.
It's hard to imagine a situation in which ammo would be unavailable, but primers would be plentiful.
Ah, yes, but I can create that situation myself with a little planning and strategic consumption of Ramen Noodles.
In any case I think the main drift of my earlier post was not so much to load rounds while zombies pound on your front door, but as a cost saving measure for higher-volume shooters so that you can actually afford to stock up/have rounds on hand.
In any case I think the main drift of my earlier post was not so much to load rounds while zombies pound on your front door, but as a cost saving measure for higher-volume shooters so that you can actually afford to stock up/have rounds on hand.
Makes sense. I can't argue with that. (except insofar as I think reloading is the work of the devil)
(except insofar as I think reloading is the work of the devil)[/i]
It keeps me out of trouble. Idle hands... ;)
(except insofar as I think reloading is the work of the devil)
Have you seen your priest or pastor about this?
:D
6-9 months.
Metals prices dropped like a rock. It'll take at least that long for ammo stocks to follow.
Its not going to happen the ammo makers have been selling plenty at the inflated prices so they wont be going back down.
Its not going to happen the ammo makers have been selling plenty at the inflated prices so they wont be going back down.
Someone is showing his lack of understanding how a materials market works.
Prices on 100 Berry's 9mm DS already has dropped .50 cents since lead bottomed out at .22 cents a lb.
Watch the other makers do the same.
losbronces
10-25-08, 23:30
Someone is showing his lack of understanding how a materials market works.
Prices on 100 Berry's 9mm DS already has dropped .50 cents since lead bottomed out at .22 cents a lb.
Watch the other makers do the same.
Lead has dropped over 50%(copper did that in a month by the way), but its not at $0.22/lb yet:
http://www.metalprices.com/
Someone is showing his lack of understanding how a materials market works.
Prices on 100 Berry's 9mm DS already has dropped .50 cents since lead bottomed out at .22 cents a lb.
Watch the other makers do the same.
I guess I dont know much about what my direct ATK, OLIN, Dealer Reps tell me or what the owners of BVAC and HSM tell me about what will happen with the cost of ammuniton.
I don't see ammo getting any cheaper. Nothing gun related will get cheaper with the pre Obama demand.
I guess I dont know much about what my direct ATK, OLIN, Dealer Reps tell me or what the owners of BVAC and HSM tell me about what will happen with the cost of ammuniton.
So, you are saying that OLIN(Which I have family working at the Alton plant BTW) are going to intentionally screw over it's customers when the price of Copper Anode has dropped to 1/2 what they were paying 4 months ago?
When Lead will bottom out at the prices of 2002?
Interesting.
Did these dealer reps "Suggest" you make a large order now? To avoid the "Increase" or "Stagnation" of the ammo prices?
EDIT:
Here's the 5 year spot graph of copper prices. Notice the spike around march 06...About the same time ammo prices started climbing.
http://www.kitconet.com/charts/metals/base/spot-copper-5y-Large.gif
And here's Lead 5 year spot graph...notice the same spike around march 07?
http://www.kitconet.com/charts/metals/base/spot-lead-5y-Large.gif
I'll bring this thread back up in 6 months and see how well my prediction did.
Im glad you have family working at the plant and I suppose since they do plant work they are privy to sales information or even care.
Go back and raead my post it was not just the OLIN Rep and I have been doing this for quite sometime and quite connected in this industry.
So, you are saying that OLIN(Which I have family working at the Alton plant BTW) are going to intentionally screw over it's customers when the price of Copper Anode has dropped to 1/2 what they were paying 4 months ago?
When Lead will bottom out at the prices of 2002?
Interesting.
Did these dealer reps "Suggest" you make a large order now? To avoid the "Increase" or "Stagnation" of the ammo prices?
EDIT:
Here's the 5 year spot graph of copper prices. Notice the spike around march 06...About the same time ammo prices started climbing.
http://www.kitconet.com/charts/metals/base/spot-copper-5y-Large.gif
And here's Lead 5 year spot graph...notice the same spike around march 07?
http://www.kitconet.com/charts/metals/base/spot-lead-5y-Large.gif
I'll bring this thread back up in 6 months and see how well my prediction did.
Like anything else, market forces will dictate ammo prices. As long as there are three major suppliers as well as a number of smaller players, there is a reason for prices to drop as costs drop. Based on the folks I've spoken to at the ammo companies, they expect to see a drop in price. It's a much more competitive business than folks seem to realize. While you and I might be willing to spend half again as much for a pistol or rifle that is better (in our minds), most folks buy practice ammo based 90% on price.
Will there ever be a time when I can buy Blazer for $75/1000 delivered again? Probably not.
One thing I'm very sure of, as materiel costs go down we'll see an almost immediate drop in contract bid prices. How quickly (and to what extent) that flows into commercial price changes remains to be seen.
Things may drop slightly but even if material costs return to where they were before the "Big Hit" those prices wont return. The only factor in our favor is the poor economy and how it affects sales.
Looks like things are just going to get worse.
Copper and Lead are both headed back up. Copper up 20 cents in the past 10 days alone!!!
PANIC TIME!
RogerinTPA
03-24-09, 16:27
Looks like it's time for a couple of those .22 AR BCG conversions kits.:eek:
Littlelebowski
03-24-09, 16:48
Ammo? What ammo? I sold all of my guns and ammo and donated the money to help those poor inner city youth whose lives are being ravaged by those deadly assault weapons.
I can't believe people are splitting hairs about ballistics performance on SHTF stashes. Just be happy you have a few thousand rounds.
As long as my ammo and weapon can shoot minute-of-douchebag I am happy. Thus far, I believe that my requirements are being met. Maybe before the end of 2009 I can go home and shoot some......
Nobody seemed to mention that SBRs in 5.56 are not the easiest things in the world to get to run reliably 100% all the time.
Although this might have been a truism 10 years ago, there are enough established SBR builders out there that a reliable SBR can be had. Without rehashing the 'didn't pass mil spec' argument, I'll say that this statement is suspect at best.
People also seemed to forget that most ammo is below its fragmentation range in very short order from barrels that short. I can see the fun value in an SBR, but time and time again longer barrels have proven to be more reliable, and effective as far as the AR platform goes.If you are free to chose whatever you want you may want to consider going to a 12.5" 6.8 SPC piston upper. The terminal performance, and barrier penetration capabilitities are vastly improved. Also improved is the ability to use the carbine as a viable hunting tool for taking medium game if the end of the world does come. If you do choose 5.56 be aware of the limitations of the platform , and make sure you have spare parts available (bolt heads, extractors, etc.) available as the SBRs tend to be hard on those parts.
Addressing the OPs question in the framework of your quote above, for the average citizen justifying any shot past a hundred yards is a pretty daunting obstacle to begin with, so lets sort this out given a civilian shooters parameters:
1) At >100yds the 'loss of velocity' facet is moot.
2) A SBR is plenty accurate at >100yds (I've seen a friend ring steel at 472yds with a Meopta and a 10.5 RRA)
3) At inside house distances, 5.56 is plenty lethal (ask all the SWAT teams that run them)
4) 5.56 has less of an over penetration issues than a larger round (6.5/6.8 crowds)
Given these facts, I think that there are plenty of good reasons to use a 5.56 DI SBR for fun and home/shtf defense.
ETA: The Winchester ammo is my choice if you can get it. Excellent initial quality and the brass (if you reload) is hard to beat.
Just my .02 kopeks.
Looks like it's time for a couple of those .22 AR BCG conversions kits.:eek:
My Spikes upper is on its way and I hit every wally mart in town looking for .22 bricks. It took me going to 8 of them before I found a store with any.:(
There is nothing wrong with 5.56 in an SBR as long as the user understands the limitations of the platform.
Dig it.
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