View Full Version : 65 shots fired by SFPD
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/san-francisco-cops-fire-65-shots-in-15-seconds-at-murder-suspect-in-dramatic-video.html
Seven SFPD officers fired 65 rounds at a suspect, the Fox said in 15 seconds, but it's more like 5 seconds. The good news for the bad guy is he wasn't hit. No telling where those 65 shots went.
That's an average of 9.28 rounds per officer in roughly 5 seconds, split time of roughly 1.857 seconds.
Link no worky.
That said. Ask me if I am surprised that some cops can't shoot? I dare you.
Dist. Expert 26
03-01-18, 12:40
0 for 65, that's pretty damn impressive.
Coal Dragger
03-01-18, 12:41
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01...tic-video.html
Seven SFPD officers fired 65 rounds at a suspect, the Fox said in 15 seconds, but it's more like 5 seconds. The good news for the bad guy is he wasn't hit. No telling where those 65 shots went.
That's an average of 9.28 rounds per officer in roughly 5 seconds, split time of roughly 1.857 seconds.
Just goes to show how useless measuring split times is. Who cares about split times? Maybe care about like... hitting the target.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/san-francisco-cops-fire-65-shots-in-15-seconds-at-murder-suspect-in-dramatic-video.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-18, 12:58
Someone should put Star Wars StormTrooper helmets in their lockers.
I fixed it, it's working now.
As for split time, I hope it's obvious that I was being sarcastic. I'm trying to work on less than 0.4 second splits AND hitting a 6" x 10" (roughly) area EVERYTIME from 7 yards. Filling the air with lead at 1.8 plus seconds per shot isn't something to be proud of. Some people need to go back to the range and get read training between their department required qualifications.
It was suppression fire. Warning shots
Just goes to show how useless measuring split times is. Who cares about split times? Maybe care about like... hitting the target.
I hear Broward County is hiring. At least they got shots off... :D
It was suppression fire. Warning shots
I've heard that, not regarding OISs, but I've seen guys do mag dumps not hit shit and claim they were practicing suppression fire. :suicide:
Anyway, watched the video. I got nothing. Dear god man, that was a cluster.
Did anybody see the laser dots being painted all over the place and each other? I did, multiple times.
WickedWillis
03-01-18, 13:30
I am being a MMQB, but that looked really, really bad. How about Chow Yun Fat going all hard-boiled and laying down mag dumping?
Whiskey_Bravo
03-01-18, 13:33
That was fantastic. They better thank their lucky stars none of them were hit by friendly fire cause that was a cluster of retardation.
That was a mess of near biblical proportions. How they didn't have blue on blue fire I will never know. Every single one of them needs to go back to basic "This is a gun" firearms training and they should all be incredibly embarrassed.
Dionysusigma
03-01-18, 14:26
The literal rolling around, falling over, and tripping over each other calls for the Benny Hill theme :rolleyes:
Did anybody see the laser dots being painted all over the place and each other? I did, multiple times.
I didn't watch that close. Was too busy trying to staunch the bleeding from the bloody nose due to face palming.
Yes, 0 for 65 sounds horrible, I agree. But how many of you have been fired upon and had to return fire, hoping to hit a target? All I'm saying is, it might be a littler harder than you think.
Coal Dragger
03-01-18, 15:39
I’ve been shot at, and returned fire effectively. Granted that was in 2004 in a sandbox full of Arabs, but yeah I’m not theory crafting here. I’m sure there are others here who had more exposure to two way ranges than me.
Coal Dragger
03-01-18, 15:40
I hear Broward County is hiring. At least they got shots off... :D
LOL got shots off and didn’t hide like cowards. So they have that going for them at least.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-18, 15:44
I am being a MMQB, but that looked really, really bad. How about Chow Yun Fat going all hard-boiled and laying down mag dumping?
If you can't get a good backstop, drop down and use no backstop.....
come on you guys do not know what you are talking about
they are trained !!! ONLY LEO should have weapons cause regular folks are not trained !!!!
hahahaha well it is the bay area
snowflake training fall on ground and flail around
or maybe they hit all the shots cause its best to just scare them not actually hit the bad guy :)
we need someone to put in biden racking a shotgun in the background :) hahahahahah
Someone should put Star Wars StormTrooper helmets in their lockers.
I hear Broward County is hiring. At least they got shots off... :D
we really need a like button :)
I am being a MMQB, but that looked really, really bad. How about Chow Yun Fat going all hard-boiled and laying down mag dumping?
When I first watched the video, I thought he had taken a shot from someone behind him.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-01-18, 16:29
LAV said something once about speed vs accuracy....
That's East Coast Law Enforcement levels of shooting!
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-18, 16:37
That's East Coast Law Enforcement levels of shooting!
Somewhere, an NYPD cop is watching that video and thinking that they really need to up their game.
Wow, that was rifles even. And I like that the safety was off the entire engagement.
MMQB and all.
I am just embarrassed for them....:blink:
vicious_cb
03-01-18, 17:23
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/san-francisco-cops-fire-65-shots-in-15-seconds-at-murder-suspect-in-dramatic-video.html
Seven SFPD officers fired 65 rounds at a suspect, the Fox said in 15 seconds, but it's more like 5 seconds. The good news for the bad guy is he wasn't hit. No telling where those 65 shots went.
That's an average of 9.28 rounds per officer in roughly 5 seconds, split time of roughly 1.857 seconds.
That explains alot. Arent these the same brainwashed LEOs that think guns are so bad they turned in one their own of having an unregistered "assault weapon"?
San Francisco cop arrested on suspicion of building illegal AR-15-style rifle
"In the spirit of the Not on My Watch initiative, Department members will continue to hold each other accountable and will act swiftly to report any behavior that might bring dishonor to the Police Department," acting Police Chief Toney Chaplin said.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sfpd-arrest-weapons-charges-ar15-customized-20160727-snap-story.html
Maybe they should hold each other accountable for their piss poor shooting and endangering the public.
dwhitehorne
03-01-18, 17:26
I saw a 1:44 minute video on another link. It's a miracle there was no friendly fire injuries. Lots of sympathetic fire there. David
The_War_Wagon
03-01-18, 17:35
Sounds like they graduated Magna Cum Lauda from "The A-Team" School of Marksmanship!
Any car radiators wounded in the exchange? :rolleyes:
That's East Coast Law Enforcement levels of shooting!
No way man! Last figures I saw had NYCPD at an 11% hit ratio overall! That total beats SFPD's 0% in this incident!
Averageman
03-01-18, 17:54
This just further re-enforced the idea that if you are expecting someone to show up and save your bacon while your door is being kicked in, these guys might be the ones to answer the call.
Only you can protect you.
Jim Cirrillo with his Model 10 was more effective than all those guys put together. Although it was fun to watch.
gunrunner505
03-01-18, 18:43
Sure hope these guys had civilian legal mags.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The literal rolling around, falling over, and tripping over each other calls for the Benny Hill theme :rolleyes:
Serpentine, Shelly, serpentine!!
Ouch.....
Holy panic-fire batman.
I genuinely wonder what their plan was before that because... there doesn't seem to have been one.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-18, 21:27
Ouch.....
Holy panic-fire batman.
I genuinely wonder what their plan was before that because... there doesn't seem to have been one.
OK, we all move to the car. I'll dive to my right and shoot in that general direction as you muzzle sweep me with the rifle and we all shoot like monkeys jerking off. BREAK....
The cop with the ballistic shield would have been better off with it facing his fellow officers...
No "rookie numbers" meme?
Anyone wondering why it took two more hours beftthe subject gave up?
Because only those with "training and experience" should have firearms.
Jim Cirrillo with his Model 10 was more effective than all those guys put together. Although it was fun to watch.
I met the guy once at FLETC. That is just funny as hell. AND true!
ramairthree
03-02-18, 00:28
What happens when a red shirt fires at storm troopers?
How can he die if they can’t hit anything?
Moose-Knuckle
03-02-18, 01:10
This just further re-enforced the idea that if you are expecting someone to show up and save your bacon while your door is being kicked in, these guys might be the ones to answer the call.
Only you can protect you.
Add to that the SRO who stood outside the HS in FL while the students and teachers were being murdered.
As for the video in the OP, holy clown shoes Batman! :eek:
Did you see those two officers fall over each other while lighting up that RV?! It's amazing that they didn't shoot each other in the back.
I was half expecting to see an inebriated cousin Eddie come crawling out of that RV in nothing but his black socks and trapper hat and his poor wife wrapping herself in rubber sheets as gerbils scamper about.
I met the guy once at FLETC. That is just funny as hell. AND true!
Met him a SHOT in Orlando. First and only time we met, he made me feel like an old friend. What a super guy.
A guy posted this on another forum a 4 camera sync'ed view of the incident. The more cameras, the more chaotic it looks.
The shooting starts about 45 seconds near the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_al0rp9f3Vo
dwhitehorne
03-02-18, 08:39
Wow that is worse than the first video. I would have rather seen the guy in the top left with his safety ON while they were talking. I love at the end the guy running away yelling “get more ammo”.
I’m not a SWAT guy but more and more I see equipment being pushed down to patrol. That is great because patrol is usually on scene long before SWAT is even called. BUT SWAT units train as a team all the time and they each know their area of responsibility. This looks like another patrol response where multiple Alphas are barking commands and nothing is done safely. Can you at least get the shield guy up front instead of being 20 feet behind the lead guy. It is a miracle the officers didn’t shoot each other. David
Adrenaline_6
03-02-18, 08:44
A guy posted this on another forum a 4 camera sync'ed view of the incident. The more cameras, the more chaotic it looks.
The shooting starts about 45 seconds near the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_al0rp9f3Vo
Geez! Go to 4:10 (bottom right feed) and look at the two lasers painted on the officers kidneys!
4:02 (bottom left feed) laser on officers shoulder just missing head.
I mentioned the laser early on. Scary.
God...that's horrible. I instruct for the dept. I work for and I know we have some bad shooters but really no hits and in that timeframe all that is, is slinging lead and hoping it sticks. I can only imagine what the head instructor for the state academy is doing with this to teach the people in the current academy class, guarantee he is having a hay day on preaching accuracy and accountability.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-02-18, 10:27
Safety off on the AR early in the video.
'Don't do anything crazy'- great psychology there.
4:08; "GET MORE AMMO, GET MORE AMMO!!!!!"
Coal Dragger
03-02-18, 13:11
God...that's horrible. I instruct for the dept. I work for and I know we have some bad shooters but really no hits and in that timeframe all that is, is slinging lead and hoping it sticks. I can only imagine what the head instructor for the state academy is doing with this to teach the people in the current academy class, guarantee he is having a hay day on preaching accuracy and accountability.
Nah. It’s California. Their lead firearms instructor is probably busy preaching about transgender tolerance, and how to let illegal aliens off the hook. Firearms are bad and icky so his training time is now devoted to other subjects.
Since the State of California’s official position is that guns kill people of their own free will, the new training doctrine is that just taking the gun out and allowing it to kill is all that is needed.
Coal Dragger
👍 you nailed that
Moose-Knuckle
03-02-18, 16:17
As you watch the video Sam embedded mute the sound and play this as you watch the shooting unfold....
(I think SFPD should adopt the G18)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
God...that's horrible. I instruct for the dept. I work for and I know we have some bad shooters but really no hits and in that timeframe all that is, is slinging lead and hoping it sticks. I can only imagine what the head instructor for the state academy is doing with this to teach the people in the current academy class, guarantee he is having a hay day on preaching accuracy and accountability.
Oh yeah, this video will live forever in the halls of weapons trainers! Not just police depts but EVERYONE who trains. Could even be run at gun stores: "Are you relying on the police to protect you? Watch this video and think again! Gun sales are down this aisle and to the right."
As you watch the video Sam embedded mute the sound and play this as you watch the shooting unfold....
(I think SFPD should adopt the G18)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
You mean the Beretta 93R don't you? [emoji38]
Coal Dragger
03-02-18, 16:48
Watched that video again. Maybe the solution here is to just disarm those officers. Safer for them and the general public.
What happens when a red shirt fires at storm troopers?
How can he die if they can’t hit anything?
Stop that. You'll break the internet. :laugh:
A guy posted this on another forum a 4 camera sync'ed view of the incident. The more cameras, the more chaotic it looks.
The shooting starts about 45 seconds near the end.
Well, at least the lady's dog would have been pretty safe if they had tried to shoot it.... :rolleyes:
I also love how they left them in the potential line of fire after exiting the RV....
"Get more ammo".... There's so much to say about that, but it would be a waste of preachin' time.
And now for a legitimate question, because I honestly can't believe what I'm seeing here, on top of all the other dumb shit there is to see in so many other videos like this floating around the internet....
Do PD's even hands-on train their guys on the "enhanced" equipment (rifles, shields, etc) or does it just get issued along with a "training lecture" and then it's pretty much "good luck"? Because we're talking about major PDs here with applicable budgets, not bumf*** USA where I'd expect these shenanigans to happen....
Further, given many LEO's well-demonstrated proclivity to go to guns and figure out the situation afterwards, are PDs doing any sort of "use of force/ROE" training or have dept. SOP in place for what constitutes a "good shoot" Vs. a f*** up?
Because I've always expected to see a damn higher level of competency when dealing with the Popo than seems to be on a downward trend the last few years especially....
Inquiring minds would love to know if this is systemic, or just the 10% of idiots that are internet famous.....
ramairthree
03-02-18, 17:58
I first noticed stuff like this in the mid 90s.
In all seriousness, I formed an opinion then that remains.
First people want better equipment.
They get fancy equipment just like the big boys.
Then they want more training.
So they get training previously reserved for the big boys.
Then these clusterufkcs ensue.
This is not a popular opinion, but you will not convince me otherwise.
These clusterfuks ensue because giving people big boy toys and big boy training will not give you the results the big boys get-
Because absolutely none of the indoc, assessment, and selection was done.
The personnel matter more than the equipment and training.
Randomly take 100 E6s from the 82nd, 101st, CA, etc. give them the exact same load out as an operator and send them to days of VTaC, Gryphon Group, etc. courses and they are not going to perform like operators.
If you took grade school teachers with IQs from 90-110 and gave them the same computers, book budget, and lab equipment as a Ph.D. Materials Science professor and sent them to doctoral conferences in chemistry, physics, and engineering - you are not going to get the same results you do from a guy that actually has a Ph.D. In Materials Science.
Get more ammo - i wonder how that works? Is there like a 50 BMG can in the back of the SWAT van filled with ammo that you run to grab? Those people had spare magazines, why just not reload and be done with? were they expecting a human wave assault?
The joke is on us. That is really a trailer for "Super Troopers II:Lost in San Fran".
Get more ammo - i wonder how that works? Is there like a 50 BMG can in the back of the SWAT van filled with ammo that you run to grab? Those people had spare magazines, why just not reload and be done with? were they expecting a human wave assault?
So they averaged shooting about 10 rds each. That is not even one full mag. But one guy is yelling More ammo!! WTH?!
I like the assault plan.
Everyone get out from behind cover.
Congregate in the funnel of death between vehicles and the RV.
If they start shooting, lay down suppressive fire over the Bay Area.
Remember to Stop! Drop! And Roll!
dwhitehorne
03-02-18, 19:48
Do PD's even hands-on train their guys on the "enhanced" equipment (rifles, shields, etc) or does it just get issued along with a "training lecture" and then it's pretty much "good luck"? Yes we do but it is usually once a year or maybe every quarter if you have a very good training program
Further, given many LEO's well-demonstrated proclivity to go to guns and figure out the situation afterwards, are PDs doing any sort of "use of force/ROE" training or have dept. Yes we have to cover Use of Force every year but listening to over views of Supreme Court cases and a review of the General Orders is about all it is.
Because I've always expected to see a damn higher level of competency when dealing with the Popo than seems to be on a downward trend the last few years especially....
Inquiring minds would love to know if this is systemic, or just the 10% of idiots that are internet famous.....So I've worn the badge for 24 years now and have seen some screwed up scenes. A lot of people think it comes out like television. It is just not that pretty. Now that everything is on video the public gets to see what a cluster it really is.
Many officers are working out there every day doing a great job. They are motivated, take initiative and get the job done. The main problem is with these videos of multiple officers. You take a group of hard chargers and throw them together in to an uncontrolled scene. We never work as a group and multiple officers are trying to take charge at once because that is what we do. You have to have strict decisive leadership take immediate control of scenes like this and that rarely happens. Firsts line supervisors are getting fewer and fewer on the scenes. Many are also becoming managers not leaders. We are getting more and more equipment like the military with less and less military style structured command and control. David
This reminds me of an incident a few summers ago here where I live. I was on my enclosed front porch and heard something heavy trouncing through my flower bed just outside my window. I looked out and, "wow! the local SOG guys!". Noticed the street was blocked on either end by squad cars and saw horse barricades. First thing I did was tell my kids to stay in the back end of the house. Then I grabbed my camera and stepped out my front doorway. Two officers were apparently pulling perimeter duty across the street. One spent 10 minutes arguing with my via hand signals that I should go back inside. I pointed out I was on my privately owned property and perhaps he should keep eyes on his sector. He told me I was Number One! About 30 minutes after that things apparently got indexed as officers were walking back to their vehicles, swinging their 16s/4s by the carry handles or over their shoulders. When they went to clear their weapons, one guy forgot to drop his mag and shot a nice divot into the grass next to the curb. I'm not sure what the guy with the shotgun was doing when he peppered his trunk.
I didn't have much faith in our local SOG before that day, and seeing videos like this one makes me feel for the rest of country.
Coal Dragger
03-02-18, 19:56
I first noticed stuff like this in the mid 90s.
In all seriousness, I formed an opinion then that remains.
First people want better equipment.
They get fancy equipment just like the big boys.
Then they want more training.
So they get training previously reserved for the big boys.
Then these clusterufkcs ensue.
This is not a popular opinion, but you will not convince me otherwise.
These clusterfuks ensue because giving people big boy toys and big boy training will not give you the results the big boys get-
Because absolutely none of the indoc, assessment, and selection was done.
The personnel matter more than the equipment and training.
Randomly take 100 E6s from the 82nd, 101st, CA, etc. give them the exact same load out as an operator and send them to days of VTaC, Gryphon Group, etc. courses and they are not going to perform like operators.
If you took grade school teachers with IQs from 90-110 and gave them the same computers, book budget, and lab equipment as a Ph.D. Materials Science professor and sent them to doctoral conferences in chemistry, physics, and engineering - you are not going to get the same results you do from a guy that actually has a Ph.D. In Materials Science.
Wait what?
Are saying I am not going to be an operator? Or operate like an operator operating operationally?
Even if I buy cool guy toys and go to cool guy class every now and then?
Now we know why Andy only let Barney have one bullet, and made him keep it in his pocket.
Legendary derp material here. :(
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-02-18, 20:33
Wait what?
Are saying I am not going to be an operator? Or operate like an operator operating operationally?
Number, Pleeeeeassseeee.....
Now we know why Andy only let Barney have one bullet, and made him keep it in his pocket.
Legendary derp material here. :(
MORE AMMO!!!!
ramairthree
03-02-18, 20:58
Yep.
America’s Got No Talent.
Dionysusigma
03-02-18, 21:00
The joke is on us. That is really a trailer for "Super Troopers II:Lost in San Fran".
That would have to be #3. 2 is set in Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEed-o8fVpM
MountainRaven
03-02-18, 21:05
That would have to be #3. 2 is set in Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEed-o8fVpM
IIRC, it's actually set in part of Canada that nobody realized was supposed to be part of the US until recently, and is now part of the US state of Vermont.
IIRC.
Dist. Expert 26
03-02-18, 21:38
Wait what?
Are saying I am not going to be an operator? Or operate like an operator operating operationally?
Even if I buy cool guy toys and go to cool guy class every now and then?
Hopes and dreams = crushed
Coal Dragger
03-02-18, 21:55
I’m inconsolable with grief right now bro.
Dist. Expert 26
03-02-18, 22:08
Right? I just wanted to be a SEAL without all the hard work! Is that so much to ask for?!? :sad:
El Vaquero
03-02-18, 22:50
#The struggle is real.
Many points to ponder, easy to jump on the typical police bashing. Not defending their actions, just identifying weaknesses.
Training
Individual responsibility
Command and Control
Commanders Intent, reinforced by the FIRST LINE SUPERVISOR
Couldn't tell from the video, but I never saw a "target"- other than the RV......
Seems another training (or lack of) issue.
Handgun 101:
Watch front sight
Have an identifiable target
DO NOT press trigger unless FS is on target
ETC.
I have trouble comprehending the apparent lack of dedication to learning and learning damned well- a tool which may save your life, or the lives of the citizens you are sworn to protect.
Another example to me of "I'll just train as if I should rely on myself for my well being".
A LONG time ago I was riding around the Standing Rock Sioux reservation with a Tribal policeman. I was dumb enough to ask, "How do you like working for the government?" He glared at me and gritted, "I work for the PEOPLE!"
I really, really wonder how many of those who claim to "serve and protect" would even understand that today.
Evil times.
That would have to be #3. 2 is set in Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEed-o8fVpM
Dang, I missed that one....
Moose-Knuckle
03-03-18, 14:22
Couldn't tell from the video, but I never saw a "target"- other than the RV......
#RVlivesmatter
I ass-u-med that the suspect shot out of one of the murder holes from within the RV.
ramairthree
03-03-18, 15:28
You can talk about training all you want. But at the end of the day, this is a profession where half the personnel have IQs from the mid 80s to average, and the average hovers right at about 100. And this is not going to be a good snapshot of every department as some agencies and levels of government are going to be hogging more than their share of high quality personnel.
Without even getting into physical, fortitude, resilience, etc. this is not the distribution of brains and processing speed you are going to find in Ranger Bn, Special Forces, Force Recon, SEALs, PJs, or CCT let alone CAG or DEVGRU.
People are expecting them to perform like that. Not going to happen.
What I would like to see realistically is hopefully better than some of these shit shows that pop up.
There was one posted here in the last year or so where the lead guy did a great job and the others assisted and did well also. What was that department doing in terms of hiring and training?
Coal Dragger
03-03-18, 15:37
My guess is they’re focused on diversity hiring, not performance hiring.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-03-18, 16:01
This reminds me of an incident a few summers ago here where I live. I was on my enclosed front porch and heard something heavy trouncing through my flower bed just outside my window. I looked out and, "wow! the local SOG guys!". Noticed the street was blocked on either end by squad cars and saw horse barricades. First thing I did was tell my kids to stay in the back end of the house. Then I grabbed my camera and stepped out my front doorway. Two officers were apparently pulling perimeter duty across the street. One spent 10 minutes arguing with my via hand signals that I should go back inside. I pointed out I was on my privately owned property and perhaps he should keep eyes on his sector. He told me I was Number One! About 30 minutes after that things apparently got indexed as officers were walking back to their vehicles, swinging their 16s/4s by the carry handles or over their shoulders. When they went to clear their weapons, one guy forgot to drop his mag and shot a nice divot into the grass next to the curb. I'm not sure what the guy with the shotgun was doing when he peppered his trunk.
I didn't have much faith in our local SOG before that day, and seeing videos like this one makes me feel for the rest of country.
Are you seriously saying that on this one call out there were two NDs?
El Vaquero
03-03-18, 16:43
You can talk about training all you want. But at the end of the day, this is a profession where half the personnel have IQs from the mid 80s to average, and the average hovers right at about 100. And this is not going to be a good snapshot of every department as some agencies and levels of government are going to be hogging more than their share of high quality personnel.
Without even getting into physical, fortitude, resilience, etc. this is not the distribution of brains and processing speed you are going to find in Ranger Bn, Special Forces, Force Recon, SEALs, PJs, or CCT let alone CAG or DEVGRU.
People are expecting them to perform like that. Not going to happen.
What I would like to see realistically is hopefully better than some of these shit shows that pop up.
Training is a big portion of it. Rangers, SEALS, SF, etc spend a large percentage of their time training for combat situations. LEO’s do not. The exception being full time SWAT teams.
The second difference is not so much the IQ levels (although these guys looked horrible), but’s it the type of personalities you get in LE. There are definitely some guys that would be and are Tier I type of guys. But they’re the minority. The vast majority are your former IT people, some bible thumpers, the non combative, passive type people.
Things work out okay for the most part because 95% (depending on where you work of course) of police work is non violent type is stuff. You don’t want John Rambo showing up at your house to take your buglary report.
Having said all that, I don’t consider deploying rifles, plate carriers, and shields “cool kid gear,” anymore. When a lot of bad guys are using rifles bringing a pistol to rifle fight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. (Large armored vehicles, 50 cals, may have use but more debatable). On any average shift your lucky if you have 2-3 guys that are squared away and you’re lucky if they’re not tied up on another call when calls like this happen and they can be there. And if you got your passive, woosie officers on a call like that, then just hold what you got and call for SWAT.
And be grateful if you do have officers in your city they seek out on their own time and money ‘cool kid’ classes from Tier I guys. They’re doing it in hopes of not having a shit show like the guys in the vid.
You can talk about training all you want. But at the end of the day, this is a profession where half the personnel have IQs from the mid 80s to average, and the average hovers right at about 100.
Okay, we get that you have a high IQ.
What are you basing your data on? Trust me, I can teach someone with an 80-85 IQ to shoot, I did it plenty of times before many of them academically failed our academy.
With proper reality-based training, most anyone can get through a stressful situation - the key is proper exposure to stress inducing situations, which also includes periodic exposure.
It is not rocket science. You default to the level of your training. And in some cases your common sense.
I'm making and laying concrete. I watch high school drop outs do this shit all the time. I'll be darned if my genius ass can get the hang of floating a slab without leaving skid marks. Must be stupid.
Back to the battle, going to check and see if the slab has lost it's sheen, which means it's time for me to screw it up.
Training is a big portion of it. Rangers, SEALS, SF, etc spend a large percentage of their time training for combat situations. LEO’s do not. The exception being full time SWAT teams.
The second difference is not so much the IQ levels (although these guys looked horrible), but’s it the type of personalities you get in LE. There are definitely some guys that would be and are Tier I type of guys. But they’re the minority. The vast majority are your former IT people, some bible thumpers, the non combative, passive type people.
Things work out okay for the most part because 95% (depending on where you work of course) of police work is non violent type is stuff. You don’t want John Rambo showing up at your house to take your buglary report.
Having said all that, I don’t consider deploying rifles, plate carriers, and shields “cool kid gear,” anyone. When a lot of bad guys are using rifles bringing a pistol to rifle fight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. (Large armored vehicles, 50 cals, may have use but more debatable). On any average shift your lucky if you have 2-3 guys that are squared away and you’re lucky if they’re not tied up on another call when calls like this happen and they can be there. And if you got your passive, woosie officers on a call like that, then just hold what you got and call for SWAT.
Being LE, my view is that you are either doing the job and not training, or just training and not doing the job. The groups you mentioned are supposed to train for combat. Though some may think it an unpopular opinion, LEO/As are not. Soldiers go into combat, whereas combat comes to LEO/As. The role of police and investigators are to police and to investigate as well as be trained enough to handle (react to) a deadly force situation. It is a grey area shitty combination of hardness and "softness". You simply cannot make a black and white comparison between military and law enforcement.
One must also remember, broadly speaking, even many members of the military are not up to par in marksmanship, physical fitness, or tactics. We've all seen photos and videos of soldiers using tea cup grips, not knowing when their M4 is empty, or being grossly out of shape. This is "acceptable" (I don't think it is acceptable, but the reality is that it is) because combat is not their primary role. Conversely, it would be unacceptable for combat MOS types to not have a mindset of combat, in addition to more focus on fitness and training.
LEO/As need to be in a medium of both, which makes it more difficult than being in the military with a single focus.
Are you seriously saying that on this one call out there were two NDs?
Yes. I personally saw two.
ramairthree
03-03-18, 21:11
Okay, we get that you have a high IQ.
What are you basing your data on? Trust me, I can teach someone with an 80-85 IQ to shoot, I did it plenty of times before many of them academically failed our academy.
With proper reality-based training, most anyone can get through a stressful situation - the key is proper exposure to stress inducing situations, which also includes periodic exposure.
It is not rocket science. You default to the level of your training. And in some cases your common sense.
I'm making and laying concrete. I watch high school drop outs do this shit all the time. I'll be darned if my genius ass can get the hang of floating a slab without leaving skid marks. Must be stupid.
Back to the battle, going to check and see if the slab has lost it's sheen, which means it's time for me to screw it up.
I am not discussing me personally.
I am talking quality density within groups of people.
The typical IQ ranges of various professions is easily looked up.
Being an awesome shot is not necessarily IQ dependent. A way below average height, pear shaped LEO with coke bottle glasses that seemed on the uneducated and slow side used to show up for some USPSA matches locally. He was fantastic. A prison guard also used to show up. He was a vet with an enlistment in an MOS known for s bunch of dim witted, low quality personnel. He was a large, strong dude outshooting me and could have kicked my ass. Neither was going to hack a long offset infil through the mountains of Afghanistan and then come up with a brilliant follow up plan after a dry hole. But they were good people and they could outshoot me. There is more to it than just the shooting, or Jerry Miculek would be the ultimate operator.
What is important, among other things, is
Situational awareness in a rapidly changing situation while adapting optimally on the go and that requires processing speed and brainpower.
Brains is only one aspect selected for.
There are multiple other factors. The stress inoculation you bring up, and experience are certainly not negatives. But they are not going to turn a Coward County Sheriff’s Deputy into someone that will storm a building to save kids if they aren’t already that kind of guy.
You can buy all the equipment and pay for all the training you want-
But with the quality density in LE or, yes, say in the Army in the 47th Trekkie Quarter Master Bn -
You are still going to end up with all sorts of guys freezing in the door, dropping to the ground doing the funky chicken suppressive pistol fire technique, etc.
Falling back on training only works if the training took, the personnel don’t jack it all up, the presence of multiple other intrinsics that mean they will do what they were trained to, etc.
Take a group of 18 series guys and run them through SFAUC.
Take a same sized group from the Army at random, give them the exact same equipment, and run them trough the exact same course of instruction.
You will have two groups with a very different capability at the end.
On the Intel side certain aspects of personnel, like law enforcement, are better suited to more subtle, less direct types. But with high quality personnel selection, when things do go sideways, it does not end up like many of these farces we see.
Personnel selection matters.
These videos prompt people to say LE needs more money for better equipment and training.
I stand by my opinion that these episodes of assclownery will continue.
My opinion of the military as a whole is not all that different than my opinion of LE as a whole.
I think there are currently about two million active and reserve military personnel in America,
And about half that in federal, state, and local sworn LE personnel.
Most LE situations like this are going to turn out like most military situations where a convoy or REMFs get attacked.
There is not enough quality density for such large numbers and equipment and training are not going to have everyone react to a TIC like Delta or HRT.
Anyways, I spent years seeing the results of the same training and same equipment on varying qualities of personnel, both US and foreign. You don’t always get what you pay for.
Documented instances of not hiring the smartest and best personnel available have also shifted the curve to the left which does not help matters.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.