Slow-selling handgun models

[Slater]

From what I've herad from various people, Beretta's new 90Two isn't exactly setting any sales records. Possibly the same for the M9A1 (but not really sure on that one).

The same goes (apparently) for SIG's P-250, and FN's FNP series.

Is it a case of market saturation, ho-hum products, or do these newer guns just take time to catch on?

[John_Wayne777]

The M&P seemed to sell pretty well from it's introduction. Ditto the Ruger LCP.

[Pilgrim]

I'm good on M&P's and LCP's...

All I want now is more Glocks...all of them in 9mm...

Quote Agent Smith, "more... More... MORE!"

[Alpha Sierra]

I think some of it is market saturation and some of it is follow the herd mentality.

I don't care for Glocks. I don't care if they are the world's most reliable pistol. They simply do not work for me.

The Beretta PX4 is probably not setting sales records either. But if the PX4 had been available in its DAO mode a few months ago, I would have bought it. I don't care who thinks it is not "duty rated" or whatever the buzzword of the day is. All I cared about is that it fit my hand perfectly and pointed like an extension of my finger and that it came from a reputable maker. Unfortunately, the only ones out at that time were DA/SA and I would rather not have that operating system in any of my handguns.

So I bought an M&P because it fullfilled all my criteria, not that of some gunrag writer or internet expert.

[evilmonkey]

At the shop I work at we quit carrying the 90-two because no one wants it but we still carry the 92 FS and the M9A1 which doesnt sell very fast. The ruger LCP sells very quickly! We have 3 people on a waiting list to get them. Glock is still king and next is the XD, Suprisingly the M&P doesnt sell that well. The sig 250 sells quickly, we probably go through 2 or 3 a week. In the 1911 department the kimber is the quickest selling, we hardly sell any colts unless its a world war 2 era colt which we sell a few of those. The gun I sell the most is the Glock 19

[Bob]

My completely uneducated take (with a bit of ranting) on it:

I guess I don't really see 'the point' of the P250. I know the theory was that you could swap out the action or whatnot, but apart from the fact that no changes have been made available yet, you know that's gonna have to cost a pretty penny. And with Glocks/M&Ps/etc being as relatively affordable as they are, well... But, it does seem to fit in nicely with the new Sig 'model of the month' mentality. ;)

Beretta seems to need to work on their marketing a bit. 92G-SD seem to fly off the shelf, so let's not import/make them anymore? I know the '90-Two' or whatever is close to the same thing, but there just isn't a lot of info out there about them, such as parts interchangeability with the 92 series? I know a few people that see the PX4 as just a polymer-framed Cougar, which is good or bad, depending on your view of the Cougar. I like my friends PX4, but the trigger had a lot of 'slap' to it. I'm curious what the sales numbers are on the PX4s.

FN makes great stuff, but they seem to lack in the 'supply chain' part of things. Night sights? Holsters? Spare parts availability? Come on, partner up with Trijicon (or whoever), Safariland (again, or whoever), and some parts distributor before you release the pistol. I love my SLP shotgun, but the market is not exactly awash in parts and accessories for it...

With Glocks, M&Ps, 92FS, etc, being nearly ubiquitous, cheap, and well supported in the 'supply chain', releasing a new pistol is a tough sell these days, I bet.

[evilmonkey]

the 250 to me is pointless they should have just kept that gun for the german market. For the price of the slide you could almost buy a new glock! The only FN's we sell are the five sevens and they move pretty slow. We sell a lot of the cheap taurus pistols because most people dont know crap about guns. Besides the 250 sig we sell a lot of the 239's. Every time someone picks up a beretta px4 they hate it because it is so top heavy.

[IrishDevil]

In talking with a local dealer, he said they can't keep HK P30's on the shelf, and has a waiting list for the Ruger LCP. Glock is his #1 seller, most everything else is pretty even. He did say that M&P's collect dust, only the 45's really sell.

[Slater]

I'm not sure you could apply the term "flop" to the 90-Two or P-250 because it's still early, but I guess the next year or so will tell.

[MarshallDodge]

I think some of the new guns take a little time and name recognition before they catch on just like most products. Look at how many times S&W tried to come to market with a polymer pistol before they found something successful.

I don't care for the looks and feel of the P250 too much but I like the concept. I could see all kinds of possibilities including some kind of carbine system.

I was at a Scheels in MT this summer and the salesman there said that the XD had taken over the sales of Glocks at that particular store. I would bet that it was because of price but maybe marketing as well.

[AwaySooner]

It's easy to see why the P30 is selling, you just need to hold one in your hand. One thing I hate about the P30 is the slide release lever, it's too long and my forward thumb press on it all the time preventing slide lock back on last round. Glock is always number 1 seller considering the price point. I am surprise that M&P is collecting dust.


In talking with a local dealer, he said they can't keep HK P30's on the shelf, and has a waiting list for the Ruger LCP. Glock is his #1 seller, most everything else is pretty even. He did say that M&P's collect dust, only the 45's really sell.

[John_Wayne777]

In talking with a local dealer, he said they can't keep HK P30's on the shelf,

...and here if you even mention somebody stocking an H&K you'll get laughed at. To most buyers they don't see the point of the P30 over a much cheaper Glock or XD or in some cases Rugers....

The gun buying public is, to put it charitably, unsophisticated.

[oldtexan]

...and here if you even mention somebody stocking an H&K you'll get laughed at. To most buyers they don't see the point of the P30 over a much cheaper Glock or XD or in some cases Rugers....

The gun buying public is, to put it charitably, unsophisticated.

I agree. Now let's carry the bolded argument a little further. My guess is that the average service pistol buyer is a guy who buys a pistol, shoots a few times a year in a benign environment (maybe a thousand rounds per annum if that many), never takes a training course where the gun and the shooter will be seriously stressed, and may not ever carry the gun as a defensive device.

For that guy, the gun is largely an entertainment device. He doesn't really bet his life on it any more than he bets his life on his XBox or MP3 player.

Thus price point becomes a more important criterion in his decision-making process when choosing a pistol than it is for folks who put lots of rounds through guns under stress and in sometime hostile environments.

This isn't to ridicule that user; it's just to say that the marketplace for pistols has some users who can afford to view a handgun purchase as entertainment, and some who can't. And one's decisions in this area should certainly be shaped by that distinction.

But let me add that I think even if one is a high-volume "save your life or somebody else's life" user of service pistols that a compact or full size Glock 9mm is as "good" as anything out there, assuming that the Glock fits the shooter. It does not fit some shooters. In this case "good" being defined as durable, reliable, easy to use, easy to maintain, easy to carry, and holding enough rounds to finish almost any fight without a reload.

[IrishDevil]

I agree, love my P30 and P30L, they've replaced my Sigs. As far as the slide release levers go, I shortened mine by 3/8". I have no problems with my thumbs forward grip now.




It's easy to see why the P30 is selling, you just need to hold one in your hand. One thing I hate about the P30 is the slide release lever, it's too long and my forward thumb press on it all the time preventing slide lock back on last round. Glock is always number 1 seller considering the price point. I am surprise that M&P is collecting dust.

[JonInWA]

This unsophisticated buyer took a very hard and serious look at the HK 45, P30 and P30L, and concluded that while they were superb guns, they were drastically overpriced both in terms of what they intrinsically are, as well as in terms of their competition (and I'm primarily, but not exclusively, talking about Glocks).

I ultimately decided that I was quite satisfied with my Glock 17/19, and 21; and was unconvinced that the HKs would add even an incrimental increase in my performance or capabilities, as well as that they would necessitate building up another set of "muscle memory."

Additionally, their aftermarket support/service pales into insignificance (or worse) compared to other manufacturers-especially Glocks (among others). Magazine prices are somewhat spendy-and both Larry Vickers and David Bowie recommend additional work be performed to make up for some minor deficiencies as the guns come out of the box. On my Glocks, all that I do as a matter of course is replace the sights (if they're the polymer ones), and add the Glock extended slide release-for a total cost of about $35.00.

Rumor has it that HK may be opening up a US production line, which would make the guns more price competitive.

That's my unsophisticated take!

Best, Jon

[John_Wayne777]

A point of clarification:

By "unsophisticated" I was mostly referring to the individuals I've seen who saw no advantage to an H&K over a Ruger or a hi-point semi-auto....

Generally these individuals couldn't get through a sentence without spitting beechnut juice.

Glock vs. HK isn't a question of "sophistication"....:D

[JonInWA]

Fair enough, John Wayne!

Incidentally, though, (and surprisingly, to me), an end-of-production base (and box-stock, except with the substitution of a set of Craig Spegel-designed Uncle Mike's rubber grips) blued Ruger P89 that I got more or less as a nostalgia piece has turned out to be an absolute tack driver, and totally reliable (and also admittedly overbuilt for the 9mm cartridge it houses).

In 2007, Ruger's management subsequent to Bill Ruger's passing away, in an attempt to revitalize both the product line and overall efficiency went through a comprehensive product/manufacturing enhancement program, and my P89 was one of the recipients of that process. Additionally, throughout the 20 year P85/P85MkII/P89 production cycle Ruger had quietly added product improvements and upgrades, which enhanced ergonomics, accuracy, durability (not too much needed there!) and reliability. What is relatively little known is that the gun (in its earlier P85 incarnation) actually passed the XM10 trials in the late 1980s with flying colors-but so did the Beretta 92, which was already fielded, so there was little to no incentive for DoD to commit to another full-sized service handgun at that point. The P89 is a bit of a diamond in the rough, recognized by most as a good (albeit somewhat bulky) price-point general service semi-auto-and most of its users are probably at that lower price-point of the handgun buying scale. My point is that the gun is actually quite good-to the point that I'd seriously consider it in a hard-use "one and only" gun scenario.

I think that Ruger may have seriously erred in eliminating it from their market line-up, particularly 1) After the benefits of the product enhancement program, and 2) Given the fielding problems inherent to at least the first production run of the SR9.

I was intrigued enough to use my personal P89 in an IDPA match, replete with driving rain throughout the entire match, where it performed without a hitch, and where I was impressed with both the gun's performance and balance, turning in one of my better performances.

Best, Jon

[ToddG]

As a general rule when we're talking about non-1911 full size and compact pistols, the LE market runs the show. The guns that are doing poorly in the commercial market are the ones doing poorly in the LE market, while guns which are popular in LE tend to do well across the board with commercial customers. (the XD is an exception; though it hasn't impressed many people in the LE arena it appeals to many of the "less sophisticated" to borrow JW777's term because of the way it feels and the way the trigger fells when a new buyer is handling it at the gun shop)

Price point also plays a big part. Glock/M&P prices draw a lot of people who either aren't willing to spend H&K money or don't see enough value in the H&K compared to the less expensive options.

Also, don't discount trigger feel. For inexperienced shooters, dry firing the gun a few times at the gun shop is a major part of the purchase decision. With DA guns, they normally just pull through the DA stroke three or four times, without understanding that many shots will be from the SA mode. Comparing a 10+ pound SIG or Beretta or HK trigger to a 5-6# Glock, M&P, or XD trigger puts those TDA guns at a major disadvantage.

[Alpha Sierra]

Count me in a non-drinker of HK brand Kool Aid.

[Bigun]

The more I fire DA Only guns specifically the Beretta 92D and SIG DAK the less I like DA/SA auto's. I Hate Glocks period ,the grip angle is all messed up for my hands but I admire their simplicity and reliability. The S&W M&P I can't comment on other than the fact that they seem to be taking a lot of Glock business lately and I'm seeing more of them in Police Holsters. The XD is a favorite when it comes to polymer framed pistols even though the grip is too small for my paws except for the .45 acp. I have yet to fire a XDm but adding a adjustable grip to a fine handgun like the XD should make it a winner. H&K make fine weapons but like anything German they tend to be over complicated and expensive but they are evolving from the big clunky UMP which I hate to the svelte P-30 a much better design. I love the trend toward the preload triggers and see that as the biggest contribution of the plastic framed guns as a consistant trigger pull is best for all around handgunning and makes teaching a new cadet or trainee that has never or rarely fired a handgun the basics much easier and easier to diagnose the problems they are having. If our sport survives the election I see some great designs coming out in the next 5-10 years and who knows if Glock decides to offer their pistols with interchangable back straps then I might even give one a try.:D

[Rayrevolver]

Speaking of slow-selling handguns: I took a chance on a Steyr MA1/M9A1 (9mm). They are being sold by CDNN for $340. Yes they are brand new.

The Steyr grip is supposedly based on the Luger, so it is different than Glocks. It does feel more modern in terms of ergonomics, like the first time I held a HK45 after shooting a USP45.

Some people like the trigger, some say it feels like squishing a grape! I like it enough, its the trapezoidal sights that give me problems.

Just another option out there for people who don't like the feel of Glocks. I personally like Glocks but this was cheap and I gave it a go.

[drsal]

I had a Sig250 for about two weeks before I sold it. It just didn't work for me; I couldn't shoot well with it, didn't like the trigger, it jammed on frangible ammo;the cost of extra mags were exorbitant. I'll just stay with my basic 226, it just works!

[ToddG]

drsal -- When you say your P250 "jammed" on frang ammo, do you mean you were getting misfires? That was a very common issue with the prototypes I handled, and one which was supposed to be resolved before they went into production. My recollection is that shortly after production began, they increased the hammer spring rate (slightly increasing the trigger pull) in an attempt to get more reliable ignition. I'd be curious as to the general timeframe when you bought yours.

[drsal]

I was getting 'stovepipes', ftf's; I purchased the p250 around May 2008 +/- month, don't recall really. If a weapon I own misfires/jams due to mechanical problems I sell/trade it immediately.

[ST911]

it jammed on frangible ammo;the cost of extra mags were exorbitant. I'll just stay with my basic 226, it just works!

Frangible ammo can be quirky on its own. Some is better than others. Which manufacturer/load?

[HK45]

From what I have seen dealers can't give the P250 away so it surprises me anyone is selling them. The FN's are too new and different for most people to latch onto very quickly. I know some shops that sell M&P's very quickly and others that sell very few of them. Little rhyme or reason to that. Nobody has any problems selling Glocks but XD sales seem to have slowed. I'm a big fan of the newer HK's like the HK 45, HK45c and P30. Although I had a lot of experience in the past with the MP5 I was not a big fan of HK pistols. They were built like tanks but had terrible triggers and were big and clunky to carry. But they are/were very accurate. The latest crop of HK pistols have great ergos; are very high quality, have had very few issues for a new pistol, and are extremely accurate. The prices have come down since they were first introduced too although they will never be in the Glock price range nor should they be. HK has finally improved their customer service but it could still be better. I don't see people on the various HK forums having any difficulties with HK service. I get mags for $40 pretty easily and they are much higher quality than most others. I don't consider that to be too high a price to pay for high quality mags. Not like I haven't paid that before for other pistols.

[Hat Creek]

The S&W M&P stagnates around here, unless S&W has one of their "pay you to buy ours" programs (AKA rebate promos of various sorts).

Though that has not helped the XD as there are a LOT of the "package" XDs sitting on dealers shelves here.

In the meantime, a local Glock dealer is now able to sell LE guns to public safety folks at a GREAT price, he just can't keep enough in stock.

[shooter521]

At the shop where I work part-time here in central IN, Glocks rule (probably no surprise, since most of the area PDs issue them). SA XDs are selling well, especially the new XDM models (can't keep those in stock!). M&P sales are consistent, but relatively low volume; we also sell lots of police trade-in 3rd Gen S&Ws. In Beretta, the 92FS is the only model we stock; there's no call for the 90-Two or PX4. We don't waste our time stocking new SIGs (but we do sell surplus P6s and police-trade 226s and 229s) or HKs; historically they just don't move. As concealment/backup guns go, Kel-Tecs are prime movers, as are the CW-series Kahrs. Ruger LCPs are trickling in a few per week, but we're still running a waiting list about 6 deep. SR9 sales fell off dramatically after the recall.

FWIW.

[POF.Ops]

Hmmm... Maybe I'll skip the M&P 45 I was considering and save for a Wilson 1911 instead. I liked the feel of the M&P better than the FN. HK's are too bulky and Glocks never felt right to me. The one and only Glock I had was a Model 17 that I sold ~20 years ago. I don't think they've changed since then. I bought and sold a Sig 226 about the same time. For a non-1911 the M&P 45 is pretty darn nice. It shoots well and is priced right.

[DocGKR]

I'd choose a M&P45 over a current Wilson any day...

[ThirdWatcher]

no offense intended, but I wouldn't.

[ccmdfd]

I'd choose a M&P45 over a current Wilson any day...

Could you elaborate? Feel free to pm if desired in order to keep this on topic.

Thanks