View Full Version : How many rounds before you consider an AR "good to go"?
With handguns I've read 500-1000 rounds with at least 100 of that being your chosen defensive load, with no more than like two malfunctions, quoted fairly often as a figure for how many rounds you should put through the gun before using it for home defense or CCW, so I generally adhere to that.
Is there any kind of a consensus on a similar formula for AR rifles? Currently in the absence of any other figures to go on I use 500 rounds, with no malfunctions that can't be blamed on magazines, ammo or operator stupidity, as my benchmark to consider an AR to be sufficiently reliable. It should be noted that I rarely fire all of that in one range session, more like over the course of several range trips during a period of maybe two or three weeks, I'm not sure if that makes much of a difference or not.
RobertTheTexan
03-05-18, 11:15
I suppose the answer may vary, especially based on the persons background and experience and purpose of weapon. Once I get the AR set up the way I know it’s going to be set up. ie. not using temporary parts, I will run around 400 rounds through it hard, one range visit, no cleaning during that time. If I could, (financially and “maritally” I would run twice that amount, no question about it. I don’t think I’ve ever ran more than 600 at one range trip, but usually 400-450. I load half mags so I can work the bolt lock back/mag change process more than with full mags. Takes a lot of mags, but I load them all prior to starting because I don’t want to give the weapon time to cool while I’m loading mags. (Plus this is good for training and using any rig you have.). I think it’s important to run it hot and hard to identify issues that wouldn’t show up during more casual shooting. I also look at accuracy while the barrel is really hot.
Metal goes through thermal expansion when heated up, I don’t know the exact science of how much at what temp, but I do know things made of metal expand and go through changes, so I want to try and get to that point. Lastly, I do this periodically. I believe it’s very important to periodically run the rifle hard.
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bamashooter
03-05-18, 11:51
No specific number. Any next round can fail. Nature of mechanics.
Coal Dragger
03-05-18, 12:02
I want at least 600 rounds. Specifically because that is at least 2 full loadings of a standard 30 round magazine, of which I figure 10 magazines per rifle is a workable number. So I’d pick up 10 good quality magazines, and make sure the gun and the magazines play nice with each other for at least 2 full loads per mag. By the time you shake those 600 rounds out, you should have a good idea if the rifle or mags are problematic. Mostly a magazine test to be honest, but since the vast majority of malfunctions are magazine related, I want to test those.
BuzzinSATX
03-05-18, 12:09
No specific number. Any next round can fail. Nature of mechanics.
That’s pretty much it. After validating several magazines and an assortment of different bullet weights and types you’ll be using, what more does one expect?
This is assuming you are shooting a good quality firearm.
But as mentioned...a flawless string of 2000 rounds does not guarantee 2001 will go bang or eject properly. Just too many variables in gun-mag-ammo combinations.
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BuzzinSATX
03-05-18, 12:18
For example,I recently bought a new CZ 720 semi auto (my first 20 gauge) through the CZ Mil-LEO program to shoot clay birds. Bought several kinds of target loads and the gun choked on all of them. I was pissed!
Then, a friend asked to see my shells. All were 7/8 oz shot loads. He recommended I try 1 oz loads. Bought 5 different brands in #7.5 and #8. The gun ran flawlessly. 11 boxes later (275 shells), not a problem with the 1 oz loads. I may try the 7/8 after a couple thousand rounds, but for now I am super happy with this gun.
Some guns are ammo finicky, some eat everything. Just gotta run enough that you are confident.
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When I approach this question from a rifle or handgun perspective, I will run either through a course to see how the each functions. I have been fortunate to attend a few courses and have walked away happy. My only issue with function was an optic mount which loosen during the day on my rifle. I have seen weapon systems fail, optics fail, gear, and upgrades fail during training classes. I have been one of the lucky ones not to experience catastrophic failures. When I was competing locally, running my CCW was always my approach as it was a good indicator of what can go wrong will go wrong with the weapon or technique...
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RobertTheTexan
03-05-18, 12:29
That’s pretty much it. After validating several magazines and an assortment of different bullet weights and types you’ll be using, what more does one expect?
This is assuming you are shooting a good quality firearm.
But as mentioned...a flawless string of 2000 rounds does not guarantee 2001 will go bang or eject properly. Just too many variables in gun-mag-ammo combinations.
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Agree that you never know if the next round is a bolo or not. However I believe there is a lot of wisdom in running the weapon hard and running it hot. Things can change or fail due to heat or heat compounded with repeated use. You may not see that if you are plinking or even running some low round count drills. Granted the scenarios may seem far stretched, but I like the confidence knowing I have at least stressed the weapon a bit.
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Ill run 300-500 rds through it, get it sighted in, then run drills and such to get it hot.
After 500rds or so, clean and inspect. If it all looks good, id trust it.
That said, the longer it runs, the more i trust it, but you need to know when to start replacing parts as well.
Doc Safari
03-05-18, 13:38
The problem with this is that you can test the gun to destruction and then say to yourself, "Man, that was a good one. Maybe I shouldn't have run it into the ground."
As others have said, you can put any number of rounds through it and the next round may malfunction.
Instead of trying to come up with an arbitrary figure, which will have as many opinions as there are people, it would be better to stick to a set of criteria:
1. Start with a quality weapon. Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, etc., is half the game right there.
2. Buy quality magazines.
3. Shoot only good quality ammo (no reloads or off brands you never heard of or are of questionable origin).
4. Test each magazine you plan to use with your quality ammo.
5. Learn malfunction drills and rock on.
There really is no "right" answer to the number of rounds needed to feel confident in your weapon. I employ 1 through 5 and apply it to EVERY weapon.
I usually alternate between shooting slowly for accuracy and heating the gun up via faster firing, but it does sound like perhaps I could stand to be shooting higher round counts per session as my range trips tend to be more on the order of 100-250 rounds, spaced out over a period ranging from a few days to a couple weeks depending on how often I can get to the range.
I should perhaps point out that most of my ARs are home builds but I try to use as many quality parts as feasible.
I say "as feasible" because some builds require deviation from the "Colt, BCM, DD" model - namely the Retro builds that really aren't intended as first-line "serious business" guns. But I still like to run them enough so I feel relatively confident they could be pressed into the role if need be.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159609-How-many-rounds-before-you-trust-a-semi-automatic-rifle
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?86252-Home-Defense-how-many-rounds
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144441-How-many-rounds-until-a-malfunction-is-deemed-quot-acceptable-quot
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?120183-How-many-rounds-without-fail-is-acceptable-Or-is-it-zero/page3
With handguns I've read 500-1000 rounds with at least 100 of that being your chosen defensive load, with no more than like two malfunctions, quoted fairly often as a figure for how many rounds you should put through the gun before using it for home defense or CCW, so I generally adhere to that.
I've never agreed with burning a set number of rounds to 'vet' a weapon. I shoot the weapon with practice practice ammo to determine general function and then fire enough rounds to ensure the following with duty/carry rounds with duty/carry magazines:
1) Slide locked to rear - insert full magazine - release slide using mag release, fire one round, drop mag, clear weapon to see if second round fed, repeat exercise with all carry mags fully loaded;
2) Slide locked to rear - insert full magazine - pull and release slide, fire one round, drop mag, clear weapon to see if second round fed, repeat exercise with all carry mags fully loaded;
3) Slide forward on empty chamber, insert full magazine, cycle action, fire one round, drop mag, clear weapon to see if second round fed, repeat exercise with all carry mags fully loaded;
4) Slide forward on loaded chamber, insert fully loaded mag, fire one round, drop mag, clear weapon to see if second round fed, repeat exercise with all carry mags fully loaded;
5) Slide forward on loaded chamber, insert magazine with one round loaded, fire one round to see if feeds rounds from partially loaded magazine, fire second round to ensure lock back on empty mag, repeat for each carry mag.
You can repeat the exercise using a loose shooting grip, with hands wet (sweaty), or using gloves if you choose.
I generally have three to five carry mags per pistol. generally arouns 100 practice rounds and 30 to 50 duty rounds and I'm happy that it is okay to carry.
I clean my carry pistols after firing.
I did essentially the same thing with the 'bedroom' AR - I made sure I repeated the tests with the rifle out of my shoulder. I practice with it regularly, and it gets cleaned and function checked (with dummies) after each range session.
Other stuff, I just shoot and fix as needed.
In addition to the two ARs I've been messing with, I'm also in the middle of wringing out a new VP9SK with the intention of carrying it, I'll give your procedure a try, thank you.
If you buy a Colt, BCM or LMT awesomeness, the number might be less. If its a frankenburger gun, pretty much never IMHO. Because the shit show could show its arse at any time. So never think if you bought off brand , your GTG, even though the averages favor you if you test it rigorously .
PB
If you buy a Colt, BCM or LMT awesomeness, the number might be less. If its a frankenburger gun, pretty much never IMHO. Because the shit show could show its arse at any time. So never think if you bought off brand , your GTG, even though the averages favor you if you test it rigorously .
PB
Not all frankenburger's are the same. A early 90's Bushmaster lower with a Colt lpk, Geissele SSA trigger, Vltor A5, Tangodown pistol grip with a BCM EAG upper is a frankenburger that works pretty good. :dirol:
Hammer_Man
03-05-18, 21:30
If you use quality parts you can probably trust your rifle after a couple hundred rounds or so. I think it would be important to learn proper maintenance so your weapon is always good to go, and learn what to do when parts wear out.
RobertTheTexan
03-06-18, 05:42
If you buy a Colt, BCM or LMT awesomeness, the number might be less. If its a frankenburger gun, pretty much never IMHO. Because the shit show could show its arse at any time. So never think if you bought off brand , your GTG, even though the averages favor you if you test it rigorously .
PB
I think someone should probably go over to the custom build forum and tell those guys like docsherm that they really should stop building their undependable, crappy AR's and start drinking the Kool-Aid, and buy some complete AR's, because those are the only AR's that are dependable and worthy. :sarcastic:
Well may last "frankengun" utilized a BCM upper (complete, had the gas block pinned by Adco), DD chromed BCG (bought straight from DD), Geissele SD-C trigger, Knight's stripped lower, and blue Sprinco spring with H2 buffer. It is possible to build a quality "frankengun".
The latest two ARs I've been putting rounds through are an A1 rifle clone and a GUU-5/P clone. Both of them have BCM BCGs and gas tubes, and the GUU-5/P also has a 14.5" BCM barrel, H-buffer and buffer spring, and a Colt receiver extension. Again, not stuff that's first in the rotation for HD but I like to have some assurance it's in working order. Going forward I may shift toward higher round count range sessions.
Since yes, any round could be the one that fails, and ammo and mags can be variables, I think the biggest reason I like to put at least 500 rounds is to see if any mechanical problems with the gun itself crops up, which would likely mean I screwed something up during assembly. If no sign of inherent problems with what I built manifest, I feel a lot better about it.
BCM is my first stop generally when "building" an AR, but since they don't make stuff like A1 uppers and lowers, or 20" pencil barrels, I had to branch out at bit for the two recent builds in question.
Every one of my new ARs that had problems, had problems from the start. Whether it was out of spec feed ramps, extractor springs, over sized gas ports, needed the preservative cleaned out, etc.
Do a thorough inspection, a few function checks, lock back checks, pay attention to how the recoil feels, run a few FULLY LOADED mags through it and get down to shooting.
Every one of my new ARs that had problems, had problems from the start. Whether it was out of spec feed ramps, extractor springs, over sized gas ports, needed the preservative cleaned out, etc.
Do a thorough inspection, a few function checks, lock back checks, pay attention to how the recoil feels, run a few FULLY LOADED mags through it and get down to shooting.
Would you share which makes and models gave you problems?
RobertTheTexan
03-06-18, 09:37
Well may last "frankengun" utilized a BCM upper (complete, had the gas block pinned by Adco), DD chromed BCG (bought straight from DD), Geissele SD-C trigger, Knight's stripped lower, and blue Sprinco spring with H2 buffer. It is possible to build a quality "frankengun".
I was thinking about my Frankeguns with Vltor MUR-1A uppers, Centurion Arms or Daniel Defense barrels, LMT enhanced carriers and I’m not feeling inferior at all. In fact I’d say quite the opposite.
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On a gun I've put together, using parts of known quality- I have no problem carrying the gun after dial in and a couple mags of ammo with flawless function.
Would you share which makes and models gave you problems?
PSA 16" Kit- Out of spec feed ramps (fixed under warranty), weak extractor spring, came with carbine weight buffer.
Homebuild with STS lower- 10.5" Odin Works barrel over gassed, gas port location a bit off, weak extractor spring (generic BCG), bolt release cut on lower out of spec, take down pins fit loose.
Colt Carbine- Factory preservative when combined with Froglube affected function.
Colt Shortie- Factory preservative when combined with Froglube affected function.
Walther PPQ- One factory magazine occasionally staggers the ammo wrong.
Colt 1911- Slow lock time due to factory preservative combined with Froglube. Note: Same thing occurred with another Colt 1911 I owned since the 90s. There were traces of the factory preservative still on the mainspring. When I lubed it with Froglube, the preservative & Froglube combined and turned thick and gummy.
Ruger Bearcat- Locked up when cocking. Transfer bar spring missing from factory.
Marlin Model 39- Out of spec extractor.
Off brand (forget which) cheapie AR a friend bought- Weak extractor spring, weak action spring, over gassed, came with carbine weight buffer.
New homebuilt AR carbine a guy brought to the range to test fire- Weak hammer spring.
New homebuilt AK a guy brought to the range to test fire- Bullet strikes due to crooked muzzle device.
Dad's Rossi 10 shot DA revolver- Excessively heavy trigger pull. I mean over 20 lbs heavy. Did not break down pistol to find out why.
All the above problems I personally experienced and identified and all showed up right away. The weak extractors sometimes take a few more rounds because they cause intermittent problems that a shooter can easily misdiagnose. I included firearms other than ARs to show that it can be a universal problem. If a firearm has a flaw, it will usually show up in in less than 100 rounds. If it has a hidden catastrophic flaw, like poor heat treat or prone to cracking, that won't show up until it shows up, no matter how many test shots are fired. A friend had one of those Keltec folding carbines in 5.56. Somewhere between 1000 and 1500 rounds, it broke in half at the back end of the receiver and Keltech replaced the whole rifle. Any firearm that doesn't have problems right away won't start having problems until something wears out or breaks.
midSCarolina
03-06-18, 11:49
On a gun I've put together, using parts of known quality- I have no problem carrying the gun after dial in and a couple mags of ammo with flawless function.
This. If I trust the manufacturer and I trust the ammo, a 300 round day of sighting in and playing around at the range is all i need to know. I'll usually run 3 or 4 types of ammo that I keep on hand and buffers carbine through H3 and if everything is good to go, I'll use whichever ejects rounds to my liking (usually the heaviest it will run with .223 spec ammo) and never think about it again. I have never encountered any issues with this method.
This. If I trust the manufacturer and I trust the ammo, a 300 round day of sighting in and playing around at the range is all i need to know. I'll usually run 3 or 4 types of ammo that I keep on hand and buffers carbine through H3 and if everything is good to go, I'll use whichever ejects rounds to my liking (usually the heaviest it will run with .223 spec ammo) and never think about it again. I have never encountered any issues with this method.
I’m with you guys on this. I think there are diminishing returns where you are going to see wear before finding failure.
Averageman
03-06-18, 12:09
I have Several BCM rifles that I have put together with BCM uppers and lowers, never a problem.
I have an AR with a BCM upper and a Spikes lower I bought on the board. It had very minor hick-ups so I changed out springs, cleaned up the chamber and put in a quality trigger, again no more issues.
I have an AR pistol with a BCM upper and and Aero Precision lower, again never a problem.
During assembly I usually take my time and CQ parts as they go in, QC is a big part of my job so I am very thorough.
I have scrapped lowers at the first sign of them being out of spec as far as dimensions.
I think a big part of reliability comes with attention to details. I would guess within 300 rounds I know if the gun is reliable or not.
voiceofreason
03-07-18, 07:51
+1 on running it with standard fmj/ball ammo and making sure it runs on that
With 2 full mags of the "chosen/specialized" round, I call it a day.
little bullet going into a big hole without much angle... lots of room for deviance
pistols are a different matter. big bullet going into a hole not too much smaller than the overall ogive/front of the round; depending on design require more angle to feed correctly (1911) which requires closer tolerances and more specific angles for it to feel reliably
ARs aren't as susceptible to limp wristing either
I dunno, I vet pretty much any "Duty" firearm this way:
400 Rounds of mix ammo. The last pistol and AR I broke in very similar.
50 Wolf Steel
50 Wolf Gold
100 Winchester White Box
100 M193
Plus:
100 rounds of carry/duty ammo.
I originally broke in a handgun in the same manner, but it was steel cased tula, winchester white box, and some NATO spec FMJs. Finished the handguns off with 100 rounds of carry ammo.
It worked for me, so I stuck with it.
I don't do any cleaning in between here, just dirty it to 500 rounds, in most cases. I just like to see that it can handle the heat, grit, and varying between higher and lower pressures.
- release slide using mag release,
How does that work :confused:
redpillregret
03-07-18, 09:46
Colt Carbine- Factory preservative when combined with Froglube affected function.
Colt Shortie- Factory preservative when combined with Froglube affected function.
Colt 1911- Slow lock time due to factory preservative combined with Froglube. Note: Same thing occurred with another Colt 1911 I owned since the 90s. There were traces of the factory preservative still on the mainspring. When I lubed it with Froglube, the preservative & Froglube combined and turned thick and gummy.
Seems like those are user error when Frog Lube combines with other lubes rather than a gun problem. I think I’d quit using that stuff.
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Originally Posted by 26 Inf:
- release slide using mag release,
How does that work :confused:
proprietary special modification ;)
I'll run a few mags of Range ammo and a mag or 2 of chosen/duty ammo and call it a day. I don't run anything for range ammo that's not 5.56, and if I can get a hold of decent 5.56 pressure defensive ammo, I'll use that. If I can't I go with 62gr Gold Dots.
RobertTheTexan
03-07-18, 10:16
Seems like those are user error when Frog Lube combines with other lubes rather than a gun problem. I think I’d quit using that stuff.
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The user error is using Frog Lubz I the first place.
Any weapon lube that makes me think...
1. Smells so good, wonder how it tastes?
2. What other uses besides cleaning WEAPON (not guns) could I use this for?
Either of those questions should not be prompted by the lubricant or product you deal a firearm with. Then there was the time in the cold weather it clogged up my BCG like I had pumped Jello brand jello pudding in my upper. I have a jar I’ve had for 3 years. Waiting to find a need for a “lube” that does the opposite of lubing so I can actually use it.
Get some Slip/EWLor Break Free/CLP. Even GAA (Grease, Automotive, Artillery) would work 1,000 times better than that Mentholatum /Ben Gay smelling crap.
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The user error is using Frog Lubz I the first place.
Any weapon lube that makes me think...
1. Smells so good, wonder how it tastes?
2. What other uses besides cleaning WEAPON (not guns) could I use this for?
Either of those questions should not be prompted by the lubricant or product you deal a firearm wit. Then there was the time in the cold weather it clogged up my BCG like I had pumped Jello brand jello pudding in my upper. I have a jar I’ve had for 3 years. Waiting to find a need for a “lube” that does the opposite of lubing so I can actually use it.
Get some Slip/EWLor Break Free/CLP. Even GAA (Grease, Automotive, Artillery) would work 1,000 times better than that Mentholatum /Ben Gay smelling crap.
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It always stuns me to hear credible people have so many bad experiences with Frog Lube. Im starting to think that humidity must play a role. Mark and I dump that shit everywhere, EVEN THE PASTE, and our guns run like a scalded dog. I use it in everything. Bolt guns, AR's of all sizes and shapes and my handguns. With just no issue at all. We have run our guns in the cold, maybe chilly- cold being in low 30's, no issue.
Humidity might be the enemy of Frog lube???
PB
I like competition and classes, so I’ve got a different approach on AR trust. With 1911s I run my carry guns in matches for a year. If there are zero issues with gun or 6 mags or ammo. Then I am GTG.
The mags are GTG for carry and I order 6 new mags and repeat.
With my favorite Colt 6933, its been to a few Randy Cain’s, Louis Awerbuck, Pat Rogers, and multiple Kyle Lamb. Also, zero malfunctions, but learned the Colt horse mags can’t be trusted in my 6933 with over 26 rounds.
I shoot 2 Steel matches a month. The Glocks 19s have never failed. I’ve never cleaned the mags. 200+ rounds per match. GTG.
My 1911’s in 9mm have always had minor issues. Great class and competition guns, but minor issues, they will never be carried.
Bottom line is shoot the crap of any gun you want to trust. I know that is not a fixed point but believe it is way of validating and including ALL reasonable tests.
jon
RobertTheTexan
03-07-18, 11:55
It always stuns me to hear credible people have so many bad experiences with Frog Lube. Im starting to think that humidity must play a role. Mark and I dump that shit everywhere, EVEN THE PASTE, and our guns run like a scalded dog. I use it in everything. Bolt guns, AR's of all sizes and shapes and my handguns. With just no issue at all. We have run our guns in the cold, maybe chilly- cold being in low 30's, no issue.
Humidity might be the enemy of Frog lube???
PB
That’s possible PB. It was raining/misting and cold. I don’t remember what I was doing exactly. But I was testing something that had me firing just enough rounds to warm up the metal and then I was adjusting something and it had time to cool down. Warm up, cool down. Warm up, cool down. That’s what I thought led to it getting “gummy” on me. And that’s an accurate description. My BCG was gummy/sticky. I wasn’t running any other lube in the weapon. But I definitely remember it was pretty chilly and misting rain and that I wasn’t running the rifle hard before it cooled down.
Also maybe I got a bad batch. I had a thick liquid and the paste. When it happened and I felt the gumminess I cleaned my BCG with some CLP and continued testing without further incident. Even in the early morning rain. Lol
Like a lot of guys I’ve tried different lubricants. Mostly to just try it. Not from necessity but more curiosity. Slip2000/EWL, Umbrella Unicorn Tears, and Sprinco’s MG lube have held up really well including some pretty hard usage in raining and dusty conditions. Just saying I’m not hurting for a good AR lubricant/cleaner even if Frog Lubz isn’t my deal.
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Agree that you never know if the next round is a bolo or not. However I believe there is a lot of wisdom in running the weapon hard and running it hot. Things can change or fail due to heat or heat compounded with repeated use. You may not see that if you are plinking or even running some low round count drills. Granted the scenarios may seem far stretched, but I like the confidence knowing I have at least stressed the weapon a bit.
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^^^This more than mere round count.
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