View Full Version : How Close We Really Are to Gun Confiscation
Doc Safari
03-05-18, 16:59
I know some of you don't like Breitbart, but this is valuable "food for thought."
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/05/nolte-close-america-outright-gun-confiscation-close/
It is important that you never forget that same sex marriage did not and could not win through democracy, that you never forget that same sex marriage was forced upon us by a 5-4 vote — by a single vote on the Supreme Court.
And this is how our guns will be confiscated — through a demonization campaign and a single vote Supreme Court vote.
The scenario by which we are disarmed by our government, is this close to reality….
Democrat president elected.
Democrat president replaces a Clarence Thomas with a Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Democrat president enjoys Democrat majorities in the House and Senate.
The Democrat Senate either enjoys a filibuster proof majority (this happened in 2008) or finishes what former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) began — the annihilation of the filibuster. While there are some current Democrat Senators who would oppose confiscation, over time they can be weeded out in primaries, bullied into siding with the Party (as we saw with Obamacare), or simply overwhelmed by their pro-confiscation co-partisans in the aftermath of a Democrat wave election.
Both Houses of congress pass a gun confiscation bill.
By a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court declares gun confiscation perfectly constitutional.
To those of you naďve enough to believe that the Bill of Rights, that the Second Amendment will save you from outright gun confiscation, I give you the District of Columbia v. Heller, where the individual right to own a handgun was barely recognized in the Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision, by a single vote.
If the District of Columbia refused its citizens any other right on the Bill of Rights, we would have seen a 9-0 or 7-2 decision. But a Second Amendment right just barely squeaked by.
This is how close we are to having our firearms confiscated.
Do not listen to the assurances from Democrats and their media. Ignore the lying fact-checkers and those scoffing at the very idea of gun confiscation and those in the ruling class ridiculing those of us trying to sound the alarm…
Just remember “My gay marriage will not affect you.”
Remember “You can keep your insurance.”
Remember that 73 percent of Democrats want to ban semi-automatic firearms (which means most handguns), and 44 percent are in favor of banning all guns.
Remember 5-4.
My take: this is always what I have feared as "the perfect storm."
BTW: Please refrain from replies like "they'll never get mine" or "I'll have a boating accident first." We get it. You will resist. No need to clutter the thread with obvious retorts. :)
Gun control is too wildly unpopular with the slight majority of the population. It's cost politicians' elections. They like idiotic, feel good laws that do nothing... but confiscation on a large scale would lead to big problems for these buttlicks.
I know some of you don't like Breitbart, but this is valuable "food for thought."
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/05/nolte-close-america-outright-gun-confiscation-close/
My take: this is always what I have feared as "the perfect storm."
BTW: Please refrain from replies like "they'll never get mine" or "I'll have a boating accident first." We get it. You will resist. No need to clutter the thread with obvious retorts. :)
In today's society we have the Executive branch legislating through "executive order" , the Judicial branch legislating through "interpretation" and "decisions" and the Legislative branch sitting on their hands and doing nothing about the other two branches exceeding their Constitutional powers. Somehow gay marriage and healthcare are in the Constitution as guaranteed rights, but the right to bear arms is not. I am not at all surprised by the OP' analysis.
I think under the right conditions, some of which outlined above, we could see a ban of various "military style" weapons and related (high cap mags, etc) in our life time, though I have my doubts of anything beyond that. Having said that, the cost of Liberty is vigilance and no four words in all human history has lead to the deaths of more people than "it can't happen here"
it will happen and I think many of us will be around to see it
the gay thing we just want marriage now its you have to call us what we want or face being a criminal and we get special privilege etc.. and your churches have to do what we want and so on
the left are nazis plain and simple anyone with any knowledge knows they are using the exact tactics and look what happened
the question will be what comes out the other side cause once it happens its either going to be bad or just pathetic and to weak to stop it which sadly is becoming the majority of folks one more generation I think we will see a move of some kind
or to say can they enforce it and what will happen then ?
try to just have a jet ski on your water front and go out without massive idiocy any more
same with even a row boat
same as shooting at a gravel pit or even on your property
the pinch is happening more and more
One part that this story is missing...... Even if the perfect storm happens and they pass the law they still have to enforce it. Without also revoking posse comitatus it is simply like a federal law that prevents people from possessing marijuana in Colorado............
Whiskey_Bravo
03-05-18, 18:03
One part that this story is missing...... Even if the perfect storm happens and they pass the law they still have to enforce it. Without also revoking posse comitatus it is simply like a federal law that prevents people from possessing marijuana in Colorado............
If passed I think it will go down a little different. No politician(at least in for the time being) is going to call for active door to door confiscation. The press would be horrible and it would probably not go the way they want it to. What they will do is make millions of law abiding people felons over night. Traffic stop and you are transporting? Jail. Your pissed off ex tips the police you have evil banned guns in your safe? Jail. House fire and the FD sees burned AR15s in the closet? Jail.
BrigandTwoFour
03-05-18, 18:10
I agree in the Ling run, so one is going to push it.
But I also think that a lot of those close decisions a were in favor of expanding rights or maintaining status quo. A 5-4 split that wholesale strips or removes a status quo right is a different story.
Not today , not tomorrow, but we fight for 100 years from now. The small steps they take seem meaningless at large, but add up.
If passed I think it will go down a little different. No politician(at least in for the time being) is going to call for active door to door confiscation. The press would be horrible and it would probably not go the way they want it to. What they will do is make millions of law abiding people felons over night. Traffic stop and you are transporting? Jail. Your pissed off ex tips the police you have evil banned guns in your safe? Jail. House fire and the FD sees burned AR15s in the closet? Jail.
If they would pass it they would be called to act on it. If they made that many people felons over night it would have unentended consequences.
Why do people in the hood not give a FU$&? Because they are already a felon, what is there to loose? The same issue will happen on a much larger scale. Even if only 1% of the people say FU and hold out it will be a huge amount. They would completely swamp all LEOs in the US...... Not counting all of the real criminals that would take advantage of the situation.
There does not have to be millions of people actively taking up arms. It only has to be a few thousand. Look at what one a#$clown did in Dallas with no real training and a POS AK. It will change the demographic of the US.
That scenario does not include those that have real training and the will to really make a difference.
One point that I have not seen mentioned, nor stressed enough, is that the 2nd Ammendment is “THE” Anchor Right. The 2nd Ammendment is the one that ensures ALL RIGHTS. Without it, no other right can or will exist. At the point that we, as a nation, no longer have the RKBA...well, we are nothing short of “ruled”. That is all...keep your powder dry, and don’t forget the water and beans.
Prohibition. Irish Democracy. Hobbes’ Leviathan.
Institutional legitimacy is already badly frayed. Those people are not our friends. Or as Sam Adams opined, not really our countrymen either.
SomeOtherGuy
03-05-18, 19:21
Institutional legitimacy is already badly frayed. Those people are not our friends. Or as Sam Adams opined, not really our countrymen either.
This, 100%. The country is sharply divided and it seems as if lines are being drawn up. No good person will like where this goes. Many of the leftists are not, of course, good people, but homicidal marxists.
Of course, we are absolutely better off fighting this legislatively and politically. Once a significant part of the people view the government as illegitimate, bad things happen and are very hard to un-do.
Confiscation is the wet dream for some. But, as soon as you get the idea and logistics of actual door to door confiscation, and people start seeing what is in effect your jackboots kicking in doors, things will get very sporting very fast. And anyone banking on full LE or Mil support for anything like that, is dreaming. While there are some who would love to go door to door confiscating guns, or shoot civilians, christ knows I've heard the talk, there are plenty who would be turning in badges, or defecting. And there is no where near enough LE or even Mil to control a large population who refuses to comply. And if you start conscription, the draft, then the side who is wanting this will freak.
That said, to get a major portion of the population to act out, as it were, would mean making your average gun owner an instant felon, or literally let one side have open season on the other with government approval, or at least allowance. I'm not talking riots, I'm not talking the shit we've seen in the last few years, letting them destroy, I'm talking condoned murder, slaughter, and the like. But, then you are going to be the point we will no longer be the United States of America. We will be the Waring States of America. And if that happens, all bets are off. But, hey, if that does go down that think tank might get their 80% depopulation. So there is some bright side. Right?
One part that this story is missing...... Even if the perfect storm happens and they pass the law they still have to enforce it. Without also revoking posse comitatus it is simply like a federal law that prevents people from possessing marijuana in Colorado............
yup
or ilegals etc..
any of you know what speed wobbles are :)
skateboard bikes etc..
that OH NO and sadly you know the outcome is going to be
you can correct but to correct you know it takes a solid fast strong direction change ! the reason folks crash is they are not smart enough to then take a huge lean and change direction which takes away those wobbles
I sadly am not sure enough are in the ranks to say OK now is the time to take that hard lean IMHO we have already started to wobble
what is that wobble ? our rights being chipped away and even presidents and the pendulum effect what is the next time a lefty gets in and how far left will they be and what will they do that is insane by todays standards ?
If the government can't deport 12 million illegals, how are they going to confiscate 300 million firearms? Even if they stopped all gun sales from this point forward, it would be a 100 years or more before you could disarm a population this size. This is not Luxembourg. Too many weapons in possession of the average citizen, and many of these average citizens will not be very receptive to the long arm of the law. By nature a large number of Americans don't play by the rules established by higher authorities.
If the government can't deport 12 million illegals, how are they going to confiscate 300 million firearms? Even if they stopped all gun sales from this point forward, it would be a 100 years or more before you could disarm a population this size. This is not Luxembourg. Too many weapons in possession of the average citizen, and many of these average citizens will not be very receptive to the long arm of the law. By nature a large number of Americans don't play by the rules established by higher authorities.
The only difference is that with the illegals and drugs, you have a fair bit of institutionalized not caring. Or just sweep it under the rug. if they could get something passed, I wouldn't doubt someone would push for it being fully enforced. At least until they caught the backlash. And even as it is that there are guns that no one even knows about, completely off the books because they are so old, stopping manufacture would affect the gun owning population. We could no longer train, could no longer compete.
I don't have an easy answer. All I know is I pray that they don't push. If the truly push it...
YUP :) and more important WONT and actually lets state get away with protecting and special favors and so on
but if the republicans ever got tough they could do something ? yet others get in trouble for not baking a cake or telling their girl you cant be a boy till you are 18 and loosing parental rights !!!
its the republicans are pathetic spineless wimps the dems are basically dictator hitler mao stalin types and know it and push how much they can get away with and are allowed to and do lay down the hammer when they need to on much smaller things
so sadly the true power lean is not in conservatives favor
If the government can't deport 12 million illegals, how are they going to confiscate 300 million firearms? Even if they stopped all gun sales from this point forward, it would be a 100 years or more before you could disarm a population this size. This is not Luxembourg. Too many weapons in possession of the average citizen, and many of these average citizens will not be very receptive to the long arm of the law. By nature a large number of Americans don't play by the rules established by higher authorities.
Dist. Expert 26
03-05-18, 21:04
They may pass laws, but that's about it. Local law enforcement, at least outside of major metropolitan areas, isn't going to do it. I know a bunch of cops locally and none of them have a desire to get shot for the whims of DC. Even if 5% of gun owners decided to make a stand, that's a whole lot of resistance. And chances are a lot of that 5% would be ready to rock and roll with some serious hardware.
I can see a permanent Clinton style ban coming to pass, I don't see how they could pull off any confiscation in the next two generations without LOTS of blood being spilled.
They thought Ruby Ridge was bad, that was ONE family. They thought WACO was a disaster, that was a SINGLE religious compound. Confiscation attempts will legitimize every fringe element that ever camped outside of a wild life center and bring them to Defcon 1.
There are a bunch of "nothing to lose" guys in marpat kilts who have been talking about how this is coming. Some of them will only go as far as open carry photo ops at Chipolte for facebook, but some of them will actually start shooting and it won't take very many to cause lots of problems.
A church group, who had gun show quality training, repelled an ATF raid. I don't think they can go down that same road with everyone in the US who has an AR-15. I can't think of an enforcement agency that even wants to, at least not with their own people.
They won’t need this scenario. The states are creeping in on this already. One day the state’s will vote to ratify the constitution.
Everywhere Dems have power in the states they are pushing bans. If we cannot expose them well enough to stir the urban centers to awaken, they will continue the march.
RetroRevolver77
03-05-18, 22:26
I think another ban would kick things off.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-18, 00:31
They won’t need this scenario. The states are creeping in on this already. One day the state’s will vote to ratify the constitution.
Everywhere Dems have power in the states they are pushing bans. If we cannot expose them well enough to stir the urban centers to awaken, they will continue the march.
The FED level is a false front, like facing off against the maginot line. The real war is at the state level.
There may well be a time when we look at Australia and wish we had it that good...
We need the ATF to decree that the semi-auto, box fed rifles are 'in common usage'.
Get a on of the Federal Circuit to take that and say that banning them is unconstitutional.
You then have split circuits and SCOTUS will step in.
If you have the 'in common usage', even Kennedy will come along.
You need the SCOTUS to rule that there is a right to semi-auto, box fed guns and standard cap magazines.
The question then is how much regulation. From none to some kind of NFA. Frankly, once you get MSRs ownership as 'settled law', then everything else is arranging the deck chairs.
The pivot point is the ATF and 'in common usage'.
That and cutting off RBH from her vampire blood supply.
As of 2017 the combined manpower of the U.S. Military is hovering a bit over 2 and a quarter million counting reserve components. There are a bit over 1.1 million sworn law enforcement nationwide.
In 2017, nearly 37 million hunting licenses were issued nationwide. That's 37 million gun owners who think they might go hunting. I think it's a conservative estimate that there at least as many gun owners that do not hunt at all. That's 84 million and that is a conservative estimate. Granted, a large percentage of that number are fudds and have nothing more than a few shotguns and a lever gun or bolt action or two. But it leaves a huge number of gun owners who are somewhere between accepting "reasonable" gun control measures and #NOFI.
Keep in mind that a majority of our military and law enforcement are not going to support or engage in confiscating weapons from U.S. citizens who have never been charged with a transgression more serious than a speeding ticket. I actually believe that if the order for confiscation to begin was given anytime in the immediate future, it would cause a serious fracturing of the military command structure. I know for a fact there are plenty of LEOs out there who would whip their badge at their chief's head and be out the door warning family, friends and neighbors what's about to go down before the chief got back up from whatever cover he dove under. Sure the American military is a force to be reckoned with, but the mighty Navy isn't going to be much use and neither will the Air Force. That leaves the Marine Corps and the Army or what's left of it and they will be spread pretty thin. So who is going to do all the confiscating?
The only way we will ever be disarmed in the foreseeable future is if we lose our will and allow ourselves to be.
I read an essay a few years ago that was a fictional account about a nationwide confiscation effort of privately owned firearms and it did not paint a pretty picture at all. In the end it was decided what a misguided idea it had been to turn law abiding citizens who had always followed the rules into felons who felt betrayed by the government they had trusted.
confiscation is not a practical thing. The feds don't want another Ruby Ridge or Waco stand off. There is no active force or measure to confiscate firearms. You cant tie up all our law enforcement and have them going door to door to confiscate guns, that could likely take many many years. It would take many years to collect 20 years of form 4473's to build a database. Digitize them, distribute and put together a file for each buyer and the firearms associated with said buyer. The feds have proof that you bought a gun, but no proof that you currently possess a gun. Everyone would simply say " I sold that a few years ago to a guy at a gun show for cash". Making assault weapons or 90% of current firearms illegal to own, sell, transfer or possess sounds likely but that's about as far as it would go. We simply just don't have the man power or energy to collect 300,000,000 firearms with a big percentage of which have been sold, resold, traded and sold again with on paper trail. I'm sure there are a lot of people who have "decoy" guns to turn over on that day to make it look as though they were being compliant. Confiscation will only account for maybe 5-8% of the total firearms in America. Gun owners will turn this into a witch hunt.
SCOTUS has previously ruled in U.S. vs Miller, in 1939, that it is in fact militia type (militarily useful) small arms that are specifically protected by the 2nd Amendment. It was the main point that brought about the ruling that upheld the constitutionality of the NFA of 1934 because the U.S. attorney made the claim that a short barreled shotgun had no milita purpose and was not in use by the military.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-18, 01:03
Progressives are all about virtue signalling that they are with the "Redneck Cleansing" of America. That is why they talk about bans of common firearms when they haven't done the needed steps of registration and then the compartmentalization (50cals, then NFA items, then ARs.....). They go for the whole enchilada because they actually really don't care about the end product. That's why they do bans with grandfather clauses. They are lazy. Make weak laws that are hard to enforce and bite people at random- while they get to wallow in their 'we did something party'.
It is no simpler than looking at how they go for ARs when most people are killed with hand guns. Duh. It's about the symbolism.
Still hurts, but if they were smart, they'd be boiling the frog, not expecting the lobster to throw it self in the boiling pot.
This is all semantics. The AI and robots will be the real threat to democracy and civil rights. This is all just foreplay.
Never thought I would be stopped at road blocks and be asked to see id and asked citizenship either
Never thought I could get sued for doing biz with folks I do not agree on
Never thought when my 8 year old daughter is in the girls room a man can go in and I can get in trouble if I stop him
Never thought I can get in trouble for free speech
So so so many more freedoms I would see gone
Maybe it’s just being older I had more to loose and bet when some are older they will experience the same thing
BoringGuy45
03-06-18, 02:48
The one thing that holds back a full scale confiscation is that the people who the gun grabbers would send to do their dirty work are usually pro-2nd Amendment. And, they have to, at least to some extent, know this. Even in the most notorious dictatorships of the past hundred years, it was radical members of the ruling party's paramilitary that carried out most of the dirty work, rather than the pre-regime military and/or police. While I'd say the youth of this country is as ripe as it's ever been to be armed and organized into a leftist paramilitary that would be willing and eager to kick down doors for people's guns, it's not there yet.
Everything sounds good until people start filling body bags and they run non-stop funerals on CNN. Then one needs to take into account the numbers of LE and MIL personnel who will defect to the resistance. It reads like a good fiction novel, but I don't see it happening.
The only difference is that with the illegals and drugs, you have a fair bit of institutionalized not caring. Or just sweep it under the rug. if they could get something passed, I wouldn't doubt someone would push for it being fully enforced. At least until they caught the backlash. And even as it is that there are guns that no one even knows about, completely off the books because they are so old, stopping manufacture would affect the gun owning population. We could no longer train, could no longer compete.
I don't have an easy answer. All I know is I pray that they don't push. If the truly push it...
It reads like a good fiction novel, but I don't see it happening.
Tomorrow War - a novel by J. L. Bourne
Straight Shooter
03-06-18, 05:53
Everything sounds good until people start filling body bags and they run non-stop funerals on CNN. Then one needs to take into account the numbers of LE and MIL personnel who will defect to the resistance. It reads like a good fiction novel, but I don't see it happening.
IG- you bring up something Ive long thought & felt..when/if we ever get to a point that bullets are flying & body bags are filling up, its pretty well ON at that time..and I fully expect the American media to be held accountable at that point, and retribution placed upon them. STARTING with CNN. Nuff said.
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
Straight Shooter
03-06-18, 07:10
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
THIS makes me smile. Thank you.
Adrenaline_6
03-06-18, 07:37
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
That's great. Did he shortly excuse himself and go to the bathroom?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-18, 07:38
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
I can't believe the cultural deafness to the Progressives using "Never Again" as a slogan for gun control. How disrespectful of the Holocaust- one of the 20th century's greatest failures of gun control.
I know they are just slogans, but 'NEVER again' and 'NO more guns' are absolutes and in the negative direction. Think of the "Hate has not home here' signs. It wasn't a pro-diversity message or that refugees were welcome in their house- it was that if you didn't agree with them and have the sign in front of your house, you are hateful. The Trump hating Progressives have LOST it and are literally lost touch with reality- and they don't have a clue that they are ill. They have lost their positive messages of that would emphasize 'saving' or 'community' and they have gone dark and hateful.
I had someone on FB recently tell me that no-one is anti-gun. WDF? When I pointed out the "No More Guns" signs, they said that it was just a simplistic slogan.
I for one take people at their words, and I sure as hell note their actions.
There never will be door-to-door confiscation. They will pass laws outlawing them and then make people turn them in. There are too many WOT vets out there with everything from simple bang-bang ability to full on insurgency skills.
Of course, this all assumes that the Progressive-Establishment Complex doesn't want it to actually go hot. I'm starting to see a strain of Progressive psycho that wants some kind of French Revolution.
jethroUSMC
03-06-18, 07:43
THIS makes me smile. Thank you.
Over the years I've learned to pay close attention to , and have a real appreciation for, what Yoni has said or contributed. On this site and several others.
The key is and has always has been is the ammo. Make it real hard to get ( hoops to jump through/regulation and high price/ tax like on cigarettes and can only buy it in small quantity, etc ) which for most hard core keepers means at some point, your guns become expensive boat anchors in your closet. You won a battle but lost the war. The future of firearms in this country lies with who can capture the minds/believing of the majority of our young people. And as most people I hope realize , it might at some point start with the AR 15 but it most definitely will not end there. We either hang together likeminded or we hang seperately. The biggest threat to our country is the liberal and anti God media and weak minded American sheeple that easily knuckle under and think the government is their God and will take care of them. At some point in the future of this country, they will have a rude awakening in more ways than one.
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
That about covers it.
As I have posted here numerous times, a post 2nd Amendment US would end up having a robust underground economy in guns, ammo. mags and accessories. The newly minted criminals would be normally law abiding Mr & Mrs America, except operating like the days of Prohibition. Secret clubs bartering all contraband items. Underground clubs assembling firearms from parts, making ammunition utilizing brass that brings a premium price. Americans are a resourceful bunch.
Here in rural New Mexico during the days of Prohibition, my family and others in the wide open all around here manufactured their own booze. Most for their own consumption, some in the business of running that liquor to other areas for sale. For firearms, the bootleg operations would spring up all over.
I have been of the opinion to buy now more than you could ever use. That extra inventory now just sitting around collecting dust could be priceless in the future. That has been the thinking for poorer Americans over the years regarding cars and trucks. An extra paid off vehicle in the household is like money in the bank. Your main ride breaks down, you still have something to drive. Totally utilitarian thinking.
Which is more resilient, the rocks sitting defiant on the shore or the relentless waves that crash into them?
While some politicians like Andrew Cuomo and Rham Emmanuel would love to have the manpower to go door to door confiscating arms they know that they do not, sure there are some boot lickers in MIL/LE that would love to given that order but they are currently (thankfully) outnumbered by those that wouldn't participate. They know it is just not feasible.
What can and likely will happen is they will just ban the manufacture, sale, transfer, distribution, and transportation of semi auto firearms outside of military contracts. Then they'll go after those dangerous bolt action sniper rifles, then pump and lever action arms. Then they'll stop renewing FFL's and change the zoning laws to not allow new gun stores to open up, then they'll rezone the existing ones out of business. Then they will use Eminent Domain to take away gun ranges for that desperately needed new Super Wal-Mart and new zoning laws will keep new ranges from being opened. They'll ban the sale of reloading components. So eventually your great great great great grandchild will have your 6920 and G19 and the ammo and mags that you squirreled away, but they won't know how to use it and the ammo will be so old and corroded that it's effectiveness will be questionable to say the least. Meanwhile the military and law enforcement have moved on to Portable Energy Weapons that are verboten for "civilians".
The anti's are using slow match not det-cord to erode the 2A...
Californians have turned Oregon and Washington State in to socialist meccas. Texas after this election will have been Californiated and give it 5 years Idaho will be Californiated. There probably will not be confiscation just a chipping away little be little . Pay attention to California, these shootings are scripted and the response is as expected. Jackie Spier for years wanted a semi auto ban in California. Nope it wasn't happening. Then Patrick Purdy shot up a school in Stockton then there was the ban. Pay attention It is later than you think. The politician and unionized government employees are a crime gang at war against the limits of government the Constitution provides.
Californians have turned Oregon and Washington State in to socialist meccas. Texas after this election will have been Californiated and give it 5 years Idaho will be Californiated. There probably will not be confiscation just a chipping away little be little . Pay attention to California,
That. Arizona and Nevada are in play right now also. IMHO, Texas still has one or two elections before it flips. NV will go first, then AZ within 10 years. TX will probably go about the same time as AZ.
CA Migrants are like Locust. They destroy their own habitat, move to another then destroy it... BOHICA.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 09:52
I can see a permanent Clinton style ban coming to pass, I don't see how they could pull off any confiscation in the next two generations without LOTS of blood being spilled.
They thought Ruby Ridge was bad, that was ONE family. They thought WACO was a disaster, that was a SINGLE religious compound. Confiscation attempts will legitimize every fringe element that ever camped outside of a wild life center and bring them to Defcon 1.
There are a bunch of "nothing to lose" guys in marpat kilts who have been talking about how this is coming. Some of them will only go as far as open carry photo ops at Chipolte for facebook, but some of them will actually start shooting and it won't take very many to cause lots of problems.
A church group, who had gun show quality training, repelled an ATF raid. I don't think they can go down that same road with everyone in the US who has an AR-15. I can't think of an enforcement agency that even wants to, at least not with their own people.
And nevermind the people who will "go on the offensive". A person who wakes up one morning realizing he's a felon today when he wasn't yesterday just because of some black rifles in his safe might decide to "teach somebody a lesson."
Confiscation, if it ever happens, won't happen at the Federal level. It will be the states that execute that plan.
I think that eventually, "assault" weapons will be banned for purchase either Federally, or state-by-state, but right now banning possession or enacting outright confiscation is only a remote possibility depending on the state. Some states more likely than others. I wouldn't be looking to increase my inventory of AR15s if I lived in California.
None of these predictions will come true, unless we let them.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 09:58
Which is more resilient, the rocks sitting defiant on the shore or the relentless waves that crash into them?
While some politicians like Andrew Cuomo and Rham Emmanuel would love to have the manpower to go door to door confiscating arms they know that they do not, sure there are some boot lickers in MIL/LE that would love to given that order but they are currently (thankfully) outnumbered by those that wouldn't participate. They know it is just not feasible.
What can and likely will happen is they will just ban the manufacture, sale, transfer, distribution, and transportation of semi auto firearms outside of military contracts. Then they'll go after those dangerous bolt action sniper rifles, then pump and lever action arms. Then they'll stop renewing FFL's and change the zoning laws to not allow new gun stores to open up, then they'll rezone the existing ones out of business. Then they will use Eminent Domain to take away gun ranges for that desperately needed new Super Wal-Mart and new zoning laws will keep new ranges from being opened. They'll ban the sale of reloading components. So eventually your great great great great grandchild will have your 6920 and G19 and the ammo and mags that you squirreled away, but they won't know how to use it and the ammo will be so old and corroded that it's effectiveness will be questionable to say the least. Meanwhile the military and law enforcement have moved on to Portable Energy Weapons that are verboten for "civilians".
The anti's are using slow match not det-cord to erode the 2A...
They also wanted to pass "arsenal taxes": if you have more than X number of guns and Y number of rounds of ammo, you have to have an arsenal license. Of course the goal is to continually increase fees so you have to end up surrendering everything. That's why registration is a trap: you might think that registration of semi-autos will just cause prices to skyrocket like for NFA items, but as with a lot of unpopular laws they will pass a bunch of onerous requirements in the middle of the night when no one is watching. Of course, the MSM won't report it either.
I am encouraged by ONE, and ONLY one, thing: AR15's are everywhere. Lindsey Graham has admitted on national TV that even he has one.
So as long as we don't elect people who hate them and would never own one, I don't think they wlll vote into law an out-and-out ban. Maybe restrictions, maybe a ban on future manufacture, etc., but not a ban on mere possession.
None of these predictions will come true, unless we let them.
Gun control has been on a pretty inexorable march over the last few decades and it's clearly gaining momentum. How do you propose that we turn that tide?
In for a penny, in for a pound.
I am encouraged by ONE, and ONLY one, thing: AR15's are everywhere. Lindsey Graham has admitted on national TV that even he has one.
I own a 1911 primarily because like many gun owners, I kind of feel that any self-respecting gun enthusiast ought to have one. I actually hate that gun. I never carry it and rarely shoot it. While I am definitely opposed to it being confiscated by anyone, if it was lost from my inventory I wouldn't care a bit. I suspect that many many AR15 owners are in that same boat. If Lindsey Graham mentioned that he took a Larry Vickers course every year, I'd be impressed, but my guess is that, like many AR15 owners, Graham's AR15 is a safe queen and something that he'd throw on the confiscation pile in a heartbeat if he perceived political points to be made.
CA Migrants are like Locust. They destroy their own habitat, move to another then destroy it... BOHICA.
People keep saying this, but…
I know lots of people who have left this state. Every single one of them a gun owning, R voting, conservative. They are leaving the most beautiful state with some of the best weather and living conditions on the planet to escape the liberal madness, laws, taxes, government oppression and tyranny. I can assure you that none of them move to a free state and vote for anything remotely resembling what they left behind. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Think about it. If you are a lefty, commie, gun-hating, illegal immigrant loving, HRC voting, sheep-person, why would you leave the state that is closest to your dream come true? And if you did leave, why would you go to TX, AZ or NV where all the gun-totin', Trump voting, Gadsen flag sporting, rednecks live?
A more likely explanation is that the unprecedented and amazingly successful liberal propaganda machine is working and working very well. Even people in red states watch the news, read the newspapers, watch TV and go to movies. All of these things are brainwashing the masses, and a large percentage of the masses are falling for it, even in red states. How many times have you been asked why you need an assault rifle or a high capacity magazine?
Liberal commie ideas are certainly infecting and destroying our entire country, but Californians are not moving around the country and voting liberal in red states. At least none of the former Californians that I know and love. And miss.
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
Powerful words my friend. Heard and understood. Thank you for this.
Think about it. If you are a lefty, commie, gun-hating, illegal immigrant loving, HRC voting, sheep-person, why would you leave the state that is closest to your dream come true? And if you did leave, why would you go to TX, AZ or NV where all the gun-totin', Trump voting, Gadsen flag sporting, rednecks live?
Because THEIR JOB went to one of those states. Do you hear that big sucking sound of the good jobs leaving your "scenic" state??? Imho, Texas is much prettier and scenic than CA. Get over it. Yes, lots of people leaving CA might be conservative, but from what I see where I am... 7 out of 10 CA people dropping in are Libs.. If your logic was true, OR and CO would still be solid red, and WA would be purple at the most.
Gun control has been on a pretty inexorable march over the last few decades and it's clearly gaining momentum. How do you propose that we turn that tide?
How many Americans legally carry concealed today vs. pre-1986?
Remember Heller?
Who is your current POTUS?
Which party controls the House and Senate right now? (I know they are a feckless bunch of RINOs, but still… They aren't Ds.)
How many AR owners are there now compared to 1994?
How many ARs are in circulation now compared to 1994?
What makes you think they are gaining momentum? They have no momentum. They haven't made progress in decades. They are losing ground, and its making them desperate.
"They" are making a lot of noise, but how many gun bans did Obummer and his cronies push through? None. Nada. Zilch. "They" are good at throwing temper tantrums and jumping up and down, but what progress have they made in the last 20 years? What progress have WE made in the last 20 years?
They've stepped up their game and are making more noise than ever, but what effect is it having? I'll tell you what effect: All that noise is waking the sleeping giant. Their anti-gun rhetoric woke up enough Americans to get up off their asses and get a pro 2A POTUS elected. Then the SHARE act and HPA are on the verge of passing. Those were but a remote pipe dream 2-3 years ago. I don't understand why all the doom and gloom because of what CNN reports. CNN also said Hillary had a 98% chance of winning.
For everyone in MN.
Here it comes
HF 3022 is now in the Legislature
– Permit required to own a gun
– Permit required to buy a gun
– Permit required to sell a gun
– Local law enforcement gets to deny all types of gun permits
– Local law enforcement gets to deny permits to carry
– Personal medical information must be shared with law enforcement
– All firearm transfers must be reported
– All guns must be registered (fees set by local law enforcement)
– Registration must be renewed annually
– Local law enforcement may conduct warrantless “safety inspections” of gun owner’s homes
– Local law enforcement sets “safe storage” policies
– Five day waiting period for all transfers
– Transfers must be done through an FFL (even between private parties)
– Fees may be charged for transfers
– Local law enforcement may conduct background investigation on transfers
– Total ban on any gun which meets broad “assault weapon” definition – banned guns must be destroyed or surrendered
– Ban thumbhole stocks
– Ban adjustable stocks
– Ban pistol grip stocks
– Limit fixed magazine capacity to 7 rounds
– Ban any magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds
– Suspension of gun rights based on complaints from anonymous parties
– Recriminalization of suppressors
– Bump stock ban
– All ammunition sales will be registered
– Permit required to purchase ammunition
Almost forgot an important thing —
HF 3022 would also make gun owner private data public. This would include:
Number and type of guns you own
Your address
Anyone think that’s okay?
If you haven’t joined the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus, please do.
Yikes!
If this becomes law, folks in California can at least bask in the knowledge that they’re no longer living in the most anti-gun state in the USA.
You can read the entire text of HF 3022 here.
It seems unlikely that it will pass, especially as is, but it is still a huge threat — and a clear example of anti-gunners’ end goal: The destruction of civilian gun ownership in the USA. One big hurdle is that it violates HIPPA privacy laws by requiring citizens to give their medical information to law enforcement entities before they can purchase a gun. It also opens the door (pun intended) to warrantless searches of citizens’ homes.
It also bans “assault weapons” and requires owners to surrender or destroy them without compensation.
MN residents need to mobilize and fight this at all costs. Check out the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus here.
The current status on March 1, 2018 according to this site is that it was introduced on February 26, 2018 and referred to “Public Safety and Security Policy and Finance.”
Guns are just a symptom, of our freedom that we have allowed progressives to take from us over the years.
Our founding fathers are ashamed of us.
Because THEIR JOB went to one of those states. Do you hear that big sucking sound of the good jobs leaving your "scenic" state??? Imho, Texas is much prettier and scenic than CA. Get over it. Yes, lots of people leaving CA might be conservative, but from what I see where I am... 7 out of 10 CA people dropping in are Libs.. If your logic was true, OR and CO would still be solid red, and WA would be purple at the most.
I've driven all of this country and all over TX and CA. We aren't going to agree on which one is prettier. But that is Okay. I still love TX. I'd be quite happy living there, and I would not vote blue. The state is a little redder every time I go there.
You blame Californians who are fleeing government tyranny.
I blame gullible people living in those states and a very effective mass propaganda machine.
Where does that leave us? Whether we are both right, or neither of us are right, those states are still slowly turning blue, aren't they? The question in my mind isn't so much "who to blame", but "what to do about it?"
I propose we use our internet machines, as we both are right now, and continue spelling out the truth of the matter to anyone who will listen in and effort to counteract the MSM and their lies. Its working. The NRA is seeing a huge surge in membership right now. That has got to be driving the libs crazy. Unintended consequences of their lies and showboating. They are bolstering their enemies ranks. I love it!
I propose we use our internet machines, as we both are right now, and continue spelling out the truth of the matter to anyone who will listen in and effort to counteract the MSM and their lies. Its working. The NRA is seeing a huge surge in membership right now. That has got to be driving the libs crazy. Unintended consequences of their lies and showboating. They are bolstering their enemies ranks. I love it!
Spot on, agreed!!!
Already done here. As a life member of the NRA, I just made a donation last week. I also joined GOA.
My wife and I write our elected officials all of the time.
If the rest of us do the same, we can defeat the gun grabbers peacefully and legally. Well, at least at the National level. For now, we still outnumber them. We just need to stick together and beat them at their own game.
It took me awhile to find it, but here is the little essay I referred to. It's a very short read and as I said, it isn't a pleasant tale.
http://ncc-1776.org/tle2015/tle851-20151213-03.html
Guns are just a symptom, of our freedom that we have allowed progressives to take from us over the years.
Our founding fathers are ashamed of us.
I couldn't agree more.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 11:07
It took me awhile to find it, but here is the little essay I referred to. It's a very short read and as I said, it isn't a pleasant tale.
http://ncc-1776.org/tle2015/tle851-20151213-03.html
Sounds about right to me. You can only push people so far before they push back. Americans by and large may be soft, but a lot of us aren't.
Guys talking about civil war and revolution need a dose of reality. If the gov comes knocking and you decide to fight, you will die. Your family will die, too. Your AR-15 won’t mean shit when someone drives a MRAP through your front door. Cops have AR-15’s, also. And they will come in groups. I’m sure the North Hollywood bank robbers thought they could win.
And if a shooting war actually breaks out, and even a portion of the Military’s capability is unleashed, all the training in the world goes up in smoke under a Pred. The Military has been practicing asymmetric warfare and dealing with resistant individuals for 17 freaking years. Remember that our Founding Fathers were armed with similar weapons as their enemies. We are not.
If you think the Military and LEOs will defect instead of confiscating, you are incorrect. Most of them will “follow orders”. We’ve seen this play out everywhere from Louisiana to Germany. Even many guys saying they wouldn’t do it. Besides, cops aren’t pro-2a. SOME cops are pro-2a. Maybe even many cops. But far, far from all. We are biased because of the people we hang out with.
And underground production of ammo like moonshine? You guys know our hobby is loud, right? Sure, we can keep it quiet and covert, but it certainly won’t be as fun as it is now.
I feel the most likely scenario is the one a previous poster mentioned where they don’t try to confiscate unless you get caught, like in a fire or traffic stop. That one is pretty plausible. Our best bet against that is prevention.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I just laugh a little when people do all the saber rattling. I’m not saying don’t resist. Just be realistic in your expectations of the outcome. Maybe send your wife and kids out of town.
Guns are just a symptom, of our freedom that we have allowed progressives to take from us over the years.
Our founding fathers are ashamed of us.
Bingo. The biggest thing that scares me with each new law/rule/edict is my nosy neighbor, co-worker, etc. that can't stand our worldview. You can see it at work just the way people loot at you. They hate the fact that we are self reliant and confident and worst all, not afraid of any of their bullshit. We have been "Othered" enough for them to be knocking each other over to get to the front of the line to turn in their family, friends and neighbors.
The powers that be may intend to pass something to make them feel good and not really enforce it. What happens when they are flooded with calls from busybodies dying to turn in their boss, employee, ex-husband/wife, local LEO that they had a run in with, etc?
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 11:36
And if a shooting war actually breaks out, and even a portion of the Military’s capability is unleashed, all the training in the world goes up in smoke under a Pred. The Military has been practicing asymmetric warfare and dealing with resistant individuals for 17 freaking years. Remember that our Founding Fathers were armed with similar weapons as their enemies. We are not.
That military capability couldn't control countries full of illiterate farmers with leftover Soviet weapons. If you think the entire United States could be effectively occupied you're fooling yourself.
How many Americans legally carry concealed today vs. pre-1986?
Remember Heller?
Who is your current POTUS?
Which party controls the House and Senate right now? (I know they are a feckless bunch of RINOs, but still… They aren't Ds.)
How many AR owners are there now compared to 1994?
How many ARs are in circulation now compared to 1994?
What makes you think they are gaining momentum? They have no momentum. They haven't made progress in decades. They are losing ground, and its making them desperate.
"They" are making a lot of noise, but how many gun bans did Obummer and his cronies push through? None. Nada. Zilch. "They" are good at throwing temper tantrums and jumping up and down, but what progress have they made in the last 20 years? What progress have WE made in the last 20 years?
They've stepped up their game and are making more noise than ever, but what effect is it having? I'll tell you what effect: All that noise is waking the sleeping giant. Their anti-gun rhetoric woke up enough Americans to get up off their asses and get a pro 2A POTUS elected. Then the SHARE act and HPA are on the verge of passing. Those were but a remote pipe dream 2-3 years ago. I don't understand why all the doom and gloom because of what CNN reports. CNN also said Hillary had a 98% chance of winning.
Let's see what happens after the next AR15-mediated mass murder.
I've driven all of this country and all over TX and CA. We aren't going to agree on which one is prettier. But that is Okay. I still love TX. I'd be quite happy living there, and I would not vote blue. The state is a little redder every time I go there.
You blame Californians who are fleeing government tyranny.
I blame gullible people living in those states and a very effective mass propaganda machine.
Where does that leave us? Whether we are both right, or neither of us are right, those states are still slowly turning blue, aren't they? The question in my mind isn't so much "who to blame", but "what to do about it?"
I propose we use our internet machines, as we both are right now, and continue spelling out the truth of the matter to anyone who will listen in and effort to counteract the MSM and their lies. Its working. The NRA is seeing a huge surge in membership right now. That has got to be driving the libs crazy. Unintended consequences of their lies and showboating. They are bolstering their enemies ranks. I love it!People talk trash about California but I know there are a lot more conservative and pro 2A than we could imagine. It's easy to say if you don't like it, you should just move, but that's not an option for a great many.
Have you heard about the group of Californians who have made a declaration of independence from California to create "New California?" It would be a state which would consist of the more western counties and leaving the liberal eastern coastal areas all the way from San Francisco to Los Angeles.
It may be a pipe dream but I think it would be great.
How slim of a chance would it be and how many people are on board with it, I'm not sure.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/01/16/new-california-declares-independence-california-bid-become-51st-state/1036681001/
I'm certainly not advocating civil war or armed insurrection. I'm not even saber rattling. I'm just pointing out what a few likely outcomes of a confiscation effort would be and how bad it would be for everyone involved. Disarming the law abiding populace is a pointless exercise and will result in unintended consequences. In the end it will accomplish nothing because guns aren't the problem just as knives, bats, pipes, bricks and 2x4s aren't the problem. The problem is in the hearts and minds of evil men (persons) and always will be.
I'm in full agreement that prevention of the passage of any further 2A infringements is the best and most prudent course to take. Before we get the ball rolling the other way, it has to stop going in the direction it has been travelling for the past 84 years.
How many Americans legally carry concealed today vs. pre-1986?
Remember Heller?
Who is your current POTUS?
Which party controls the House and Senate right now? (I know they are a feckless bunch of RINOs, but still… They aren't Ds.)
How many AR owners are there now compared to 1994?
How many ARs are in circulation now compared to 1994?
What makes you think they are gaining momentum? They have no momentum. They haven't made progress in decades. They are losing ground, and its making them desperate.
"They" are making a lot of noise, but how many gun bans did Obummer and his cronies push through? None. Nada. Zilch. "They" are good at throwing temper tantrums and jumping up and down, but what progress have they made in the last 20 years? What progress have WE made in the last 20 years?
They've stepped up their game and are making more noise than ever, but what effect is it having? I'll tell you what effect: All that noise is waking the sleeping giant. Their anti-gun rhetoric woke up enough Americans to get up off their asses and get a pro 2A POTUS elected. Then the SHARE act and HPA are on the verge of passing. Those were but a remote pipe dream 2-3 years ago. I don't understand why all the doom and gloom because of what CNN reports. CNN also said Hillary had a 98% chance of winning.
I like the way you think.
For everyone in MN.
Here it comes
HF 3022 is now in the Legislature
– Permit required to own a gun
– Permit required to buy a gun
– Permit required to sell a gun
– Local law enforcement gets to deny all types of gun permits
– Local law enforcement gets to deny permits to carry
– Personal medical information must be shared with law enforcement
– All firearm transfers must be reported
– All guns must be registered (fees set by local law enforcement)
– Registration must be renewed annually
– Local law enforcement may conduct warrantless “safety inspections” of gun owner’s homes
– Local law enforcement sets “safe storage” policies
– Five day waiting period for all transfers
– Transfers must be done through an FFL (even between private parties)
– Fees may be charged for transfers
– Local law enforcement may conduct background investigation on transfers
– Total ban on any gun which meets broad “assault weapon” definition – banned guns must be destroyed or surrendered
– Ban thumbhole stocks
– Ban adjustable stocks
– Ban pistol grip stocks
– Limit fixed magazine capacity to 7 rounds
– Ban any magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds
– Suspension of gun rights based on complaints from anonymous parties
– Recriminalization of suppressors
– Bump stock ban
– All ammunition sales will be registered
– Permit required to purchase ammunition
Almost forgot an important thing —
HF 3022 would also make gun owner private data public. This would include:
Number and type of guns you own
Your address
Anyone think that’s okay?
If you haven’t joined the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus, please do.
Yikes!
If this becomes law, folks in California can at least bask in the knowledge that they’re no longer living in the most anti-gun state in the USA.
You can read the entire text of HF 3022 here.
It seems unlikely that it will pass, especially as is, but it is still a huge threat — and a clear example of anti-gunners’ end goal: The destruction of civilian gun ownership in the USA. One big hurdle is that it violates HIPPA privacy laws by requiring citizens to give their medical information to law enforcement entities before they can purchase a gun. It also opens the door (pun intended) to warrantless searches of citizens’ homes.
It also bans “assault weapons” and requires owners to surrender or destroy them without compensation.
MN residents need to mobilize and fight this at all costs. Check out the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus here.
The current status on March 1, 2018 according to this site is that it was introduced on February 26, 2018 and referred to “Public Safety and Security Policy and Finance.”
Two "more reasonable" bills were already shot down (tabled) in committee - HF1605 and HF1669. Democrats are feeling emboldened by the tide of public sentiment and positional moderation by previously supportive politicians. HF3022 hasn't been heard in committee yet, but I note that some of the key democrats are already abandoning the bill.... Quade, Murphy, Ward, Omar, Hornstein, Bernardy, and Applebaum. The bill is so much of an overreach, it will have tough sledding. I'll be surprised (and alarmed) if it makes it out of the Public Safety and Security Policy and Finance committee.
I am not advocating civil war, however to think the outcome of such a civil war is known if foolish and shows a lack of historical data.
Were the Nazi's able to stop the partizan groups in a lot of the countries they occupied?
Were the Soviets able to control citizens in the middle of no where, not really.
Were the Soviets able to win their war in A-Stan?
Was the USA able to win in A-Stan?
Were we in Israel able to stop terrorism forever?
Who here wants to be a cop in the Midwest, Southwest, or the south and be given the job to collect guns from the people.
At an anti terror course I taught to 5 SWAT teams and a Federal agency, the LT. of the host SWAT team stated publically as part of the course if the Feds came to take away guns from Americans living in his jurisdiction. They the SWAT team would kill the Feds and bury the bodies in the sticks.
So I will not push for a civil war, but one side has a majority of cops and military in line with the Constitution, plus a lot of the gun owners. A good amount of which are vets of police and military.
I don't lose sleep over the odds.
That military capability couldn't control countries full of illiterate farmers with leftover Soviet weapons. If you think the entire United States could be effectively occupied you're fooling yourself.
I didn’t say they could effectively occupy the entire US.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-18, 12:55
One point that I have not seen mentioned, nor stressed enough, is that the 2nd Ammendment is “THE” Anchor Right. The 2nd Ammendment is the one that ensures ALL RIGHTS. Without it, no other right can or will exist. At the point that we, as a nation, no longer have the RKBA...well, we are nothing short of “ruled”. That is all...keep your powder dry, and don’t forget the water and beans.
Two "more reasonable" bills were already shot down (tabled) in committee - HF1605 and HF1669. Democrats are feeling emboldened by the tide of public sentiment and positional moderation by previously supportive politicians. HF3022 hasn't been heard in committee yet, but I note that some of the key democrats are already abandoning the bill.... Quade, Murphy, Ward, Omar, Hornstein, Bernardy, and Applebaum. The bill is so much of an overreach, it will have tough sledding. I'll be surprised (and alarmed) if it makes it out of the Public Safety and Security Policy and Finance committee.
That Bill is so unconstitutional it's not even funny. You'd get Sotomayer to shoot down some of them.
I agree that the real tide is in our favor- and I think the left knows it. This is their last push before SCOTUS rules on MSRs- and they know it doesn't favor them. Scalia was awesome, but he also had a statist-control version of conservatism rather than Goresuch's more libertarian views.
HOLD FAST
Civil War, probably not. Massive Civil Disobedience and non-compliance, most probably. I can also envision sabotage and vandalism of any vehicles or facilities part of the Law Enforcement arm that tries to enforce confiscation. This kind of guerrilla activity would certainly happen. Once the reporting in the media goes viral, it would happen all over. The 1 gallon milk jug mixed with motor oil and gasoline works pretty good.
A huge number of Americans are not just going to give up their firearms. Not gonna happen. The more they push against the gun owing public, the more rigid the response will be.
That military capability couldn't control countries full of illiterate farmers with leftover Soviet weapons. If you think the entire United States could be effectively occupied you're fooling yourself.
Bingo! Very suprising how a bunch of illiterate farmers with clapped out AK47's, and leftover rocket launchers can keep the U.S. military at bay, We've been in A-stan for going on 16-17 years? and we're no closer to having it under control now, then when we started.. We might have the larger citys (the few that are) barely under control, but once you get out of town and into the country, the indians run the show, they know the countryside, and we don't, they know who will help them, and we don't, They know that at some point we will leave with our tails between our legs, just like the Russians, just like the British before them, and we don't....
As I have stated many times here and other places. I am a Jew, I don't care what your law says about my guns. For the law once said the place for people like me was to be in ghettos and camps until they became air pollution.
Last Saturday I had a liberal start in on me over guns. I looked him in the eyes and asked him if he was willing to kill me to take my guns, he replied no of course not.
I smiled and told him, that I was willing to kill him and anyone else I needed too. In order to keep my guns and thus remain free.
I'm not Jewish, but I've told many people pretty much the same thing. I'm not a "subject", I'm a free citizen. I have a live and let live attitude about most things, but there is most definitely a line and once we pass it all bets are off.
trackmagic
03-06-18, 14:26
Over the years I've learned to pay close attention to , and have a real appreciation for, what Yoni has said or contributed. On this site and several others.
Agree, Yoni needs a hashtag so I can find and subscribe to him on other sites as well:)
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 14:29
I didn’t say they could effectively occupy the entire US.
So what are you saying then? How does our military capability, which is largely strategic in nature, translate to effectively disarming US citizens?
Let's see what happens after the next AR15-mediated mass murder.
Truth bomb.
Each nationally reported event draws more 'pro-2a' folks to the 'let's see if banning AR's helps' side of the fence.
We all know that handguns kill more folks than rifles, but the results are much more spectacular with the AR. Yeah, I know, the VT shooter used 9mm and .22 pistols, the Luby's shooter used a 9mm pistol, etc. but those events are in the rear view mirror.
We need some way to keep the media from reporting the names and body counts of these killers. I don't know how.
All I know is that if the mass shooters with AR's had instead used vehicles as a method of mayhem, we (as a Nation) would be talking about no DL's for folks under 21, no DL's for those taking certain meds,
The whole idea of US Military executing confiscation is a bit silly:
1) Posse Comitatus- yep, "they" could declare insurrection or local leo incapable of maintaining public order (due to bush era softening, spit spit)
But it would trigger a fairly large constitutional issue if it was ever enacted for a 2A issue.
And yes, this exact scenario is discussed in mil ethics courses at West Point, etc.
Some big brass might go along. Most rank & file and company grade officers would not.
Maybe the USMC and Navy will do it, since they were not named. Them and the National Guard.
2) Unlike, A-stan, the military and LEO families have to live here. If it ever got rough, there is simply no safe haven for them. That will change the willpower of any who chose to take up arms against their fellow citizens.
3) The active Army is not that big. 450-500k active total. 190k committed overseas. Another 100k "institutional" (training, etc). We have 30-31 BCTs of roughly 4500 soldiers, which is our real fighting force. Third to a half of which are committed overseas, more on standby to do so.
More GA hunters kill a deer each year than we have fighting soldiers available domestically, just to put it into perspective.
Confiscation is not something that can be done by fighters, bombers and carriers. So the size of the USAF and USN is largely meaningless.
For all the reasons outlined before, there is not enough manpower or political will to execute confiscation at a large scale.
You can look to England, Australia and similar for our future. First semis, then pistols, then bolt guns and other repeaters. Amnesty days, Turn in contraband, register the still legal, at least until they have to be turned in, etc.
Any not turned in will be turned in by their kids or when accidently found. Some folks will be prosecuted, like the 90yo German and English men found periodically with ww2 weapons in their basement.
You'll have a bunch of unenforceable laws that get selectively enforced when needed at an individual level. Or if unlucky. Or ratted out by your ex. Welcome to the USSR.
I'm reminded of a Red Barchetta
Averageman
03-06-18, 15:15
It would take a serious trip down the rabbit hole of Socialism for the Military to go door to door collecting peoples personal firearms, far, far beyond "never gonna happen." I would guess there would be a major push back from LEO's at Local, State and Federal levels on the subject.
There are a lot of people providing public service who do so because they are major believers in the Constitution. I believe, if this time ever comes there will be a 'soft" revolution within the beltway long before a single round has to be fired.
Schummer and Pelosi can spout whatever unconstitutional dribble they care to because quiet frankly, it aint going to happen. Even they know the push back against tyranny would put them in a very bad place. It is however safe for them to say these things and promote their ideas because outside of a slightly growing number of States on both coasts, nobody is buying this tripe.
I would guess in my small rural town in central Texas, you would be very hard pressed to find more than four Officers even willing to suit up and go. This would only last about four hundred yards until they looked behind them and found out there is no back up and the numbers just wont work.
On both sides, both the Pro and Anti gun factions, this is a wet dream.
I would remind you to remember what happened at West Point Military Academy when the South seceded, lines were drawn, sides were taken and weeks later these classmates were in pitch battle with one another. I'm confident we have learned from that.
All I know is that if the mass shooters with AR's had instead used vehicles as a method of mayhem, we (as a Nation) would be talking about no DL's for folks under 21, no DL's for those taking certain meds,
Personally disagree here, vehemently. If that was the case, we'd already be doing it due to DUIs, texting, etc.
Every year, more college kids die at just one local University due to stupid driving tricks than any of these tragedies.
This stuff is not about reducing deaths... It's about using emotion to achieve a long term goal
RetroRevolver77
03-06-18, 15:23
Guys talking about civil war and revolution need a dose of reality. If the gov comes knocking and you decide to fight, you will die. Your family will die, too. Your AR-15 won’t mean shit when someone drives a MRAP through your front door. Cops have AR-15’s, also. And they will come in groups. I’m sure the North Hollywood bank robbers thought they could win.
And if a shooting war actually breaks out, and even a portion of the Military’s capability is unleashed, all the training in the world goes up in smoke under a Pred. The Military has been practicing asymmetric warfare and dealing with resistant individuals for 17 freaking years. Remember that our Founding Fathers were armed with similar weapons as their enemies. We are not.
If you think the Military and LEOs will defect instead of confiscating, you are incorrect. Most of them will “follow orders”. We’ve seen this play out everywhere from Louisiana to Germany. Even many guys saying they wouldn’t do it. Besides, cops aren’t pro-2a. SOME cops are pro-2a. Maybe even many cops. But far, far from all. We are biased because of the people we hang out with.
And underground production of ammo like moonshine? You guys know our hobby is loud, right? Sure, we can keep it quiet and covert, but it certainly won’t be as fun as it is now.
I feel the most likely scenario is the one a previous poster mentioned where they don’t try to confiscate unless you get caught, like in a fire or traffic stop. That one is pretty plausible. Our best bet against that is prevention.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I just laugh a little when people do all the saber rattling. I’m not saying don’t resist. Just be realistic in your expectations of the outcome. Maybe send your wife and kids out of town.
You're neglecting the biggest aspect of the dynamics of the situation. The military and police don't bring their families with them while going to war or on raids but that's exactly what they would be risking once things ever got to that level. This is home soil, our families are here- all of our families are here. No amount of technology, skills, training, nor equipment can overcome someone wanting to risk the lives of their family. We already saw this play out in the 1990's, government employees "just doing their job", killing US citizens along with their families at Waco and Ruby Ridge. And what happened in retaliation? Oklahoma City- where men, women and their children were equally targeted just the same. That's a very small glimpse into just how ugly a civil war would become here. No one wants that.
7n6
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 15:25
This stuff is not about reducing deaths... It's about using emotion to achieve a long term goal
Bingo! It's not about CRIME; it's about CONTROL.
Don't you folks think that some liberal bigwig like George Soros is funding these efforts with the willing participation and encouragement of the MSM?
Wasn't it just a little to convenient for the students from this last shooting to have organized that quickly and the talking points all had to do with the Second Amendment? I'll take it to the extreme and say they had that guy Hogg chosen for his TV appearance before the full details of the shooting were even known.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 15:28
You're neglecting the biggest aspect of the dynamics of the situation. The military and police don't bring their families with them while going to war or on raids but that's exactly what they would be risking once things ever got to that level. This is home soil, our families are here- all of our families are here. No amount of technology, skills, training, nor equipment can overcome someone wanting to risk the lives of their family. We already saw this play out in the 1990's, government employees "just doing their job", killing US citizens along with their families at Waco and Ruby Ridge. And what happened in retaliation? Oklahoma City- where men, women and their children were equally targeted just the same. That's a very small glimpse into just how ugly a civil war would become here. No one wants that.
7n6
Nailed it. Although 90% of us might be too squeamish to do so right now, let some family members of gun owners come to tragic ends and you will see a backlash where kidnappings, torture, hanging people from bridges, leaving bodies on the side of the road, etc., will become just like the drug wars in Mexico. It will be horrible. I hope we never ever go there.
On both sides, both the Pro and Anti gun factions, this is a wet dream.
Yep, for sure
I would remind you to remember what happened at West Point Military Academy when the South seceded, lines were drawn, sides were taken and weeks later these classmates were in pitch battle with one another. I'm confident we have learned from that.
This is also studied at USMA as part of mil ethics. The official position uses terms like traitors and insurrection even though Lee and others were a big part of West Point history.
Also remember, West Point is the site where the Continental army decided to hold the line against the British.
In the current superheated media/info cycle, it would never get that far. Not unless there was a flat out coup in DC, and at that point all bets would be off as to where the mil would side.
Personally disagree here, vehemently. If that was the case, we'd already be doing it due to DUIs, texting, etc.
Every year, more college kids die at just one local University due to stupid driving tricks than any of these tragedies.
This stuff is not about reducing deaths... It's about using emotion to achieve a long term goal
I was an SFST instructor, well aware of the stats, but.......how many of those DUI's and texting accidents are nationallly reported and remain on the screen for any extended period of time? Numerous mass murders by drivers plowing into crowded venues would be just as vigorously cycled on the news.
Agree about the emotion, but I posit the emotions would be transferred to cars by many of the folks now chanting 'ban AR's.
We will never know because AR's will continue to be used, even if cars were used in more mass murders than which they are presently.
ETA: the other thing about DUI's and texting is the 'there but for the grace of God go I' factor.
You're neglecting the biggest aspect of the dynamics of the situation. The military and police don't bring their families with them while going to war or on raids but that's exactly what they would be risking once things ever got to that level. This is home soil, our families are here- all of our families are here. No amount of technology, skills, training, nor equipment can overcome someone wanting to risk the lives of their family. We already saw this play out in the 1990's, government employees "just doing their job", killing US citizens along with their families at Waco and Ruby Ridge. And what happened in retaliation? Oklahoma City- where men, women and their children were equally targeted just the same. That's a very small glimpse into just how ugly a civil war would become here. No one wants that.
7n6
This is why the police and military wear masks in most sh%^ holes....... I mean developing nations.
We will never know because AR's will continue to be used, even if cars were used in more mass murders than which they are presently.
I think we have to change the message. Are ARs really the killing machines? Or are they now the Toyota Camry of rifles. Reliable, handy, affordable, and most of all prolific.
So are these shootings due to ARs? No, it's just that ARs are the most commonly available rifle lately.
I'd love to see stats on DUIs and car models. I'd be willing to bet money that there is correlation with model sales stats and cars used by dui.
"Ban Camries and Tauruses, 63% of DUIs are committed with one or the other"
It took me awhile to find it, but here is the little essay I referred to. It's a very short read and as I said, it isn't a pleasant tale.
http://ncc-1776.org/tle2015/tle851-20151213-03.html
The writer of this piece clearly understands human nature and the tenuous balancing act that holds our "society" together. I sincerely hope we NEVER go down this road.
SomeOtherGuy
03-06-18, 15:55
This stuff is not about reducing deaths... It's about using emotion to achieve a long term goal
110% right. The antis don't care about actual lives lost or risked, or they would put their efforts elsewhere. The ones who think they really do are just "useful" idiots. This is all about a chess move in the game of total control.
will become just like the drug wars in Mexico. It will be horrible. I hope we never ever go there.
I hope so too. The thing about societal collapse is that it's much easier to get into a collapse than it is to get out of it. The Mexico situation is instructive, but also the extremely rapid transformation of Yugoslavia into multi-party civil war. You can read the accounts of people who were there - intelligent, literate, normal people, who one day were living ordinary lives and the next they were refugees, fighters, or dead.
That level of horror is what Soros and the extreme leftists doing his bidding could bring about. There should be no tolerance of this. The brutal anti-communist actions of decades ago become more understandable when you learn about what communists bring.
N.B. Soros and his ilk are not in any way sincere communists, but they have no hesitation to use the mantras and subversion strategies of communism to bring about their own, personal, not-remotely-communist goals.
I'm not Jewish, but I've told many people pretty much the same thing.
I think the reason I stress being a Jew, is because for 2,000 we didn't have our country. We were subject to laws in both Europe and the Middle East, that kept us being able to own guns and swords, land and a lot of other things. Too bad a bunch of socialist/commies were the driving force that reestablished Israel. I don't live in Israel, because socialism sucks. I just plain burned out on commie ideas. So I moved back to the USA and was in shock how socialistic it had become.
Mr. Goodtimes
03-06-18, 16:15
I think another ban would kick things off.
We could only hope.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Two points to contribute to this thread subject:
1. The left is playing the long game here. We are all talking about outright confiscation and how ugly things would get. We are Americans. We are rebellious by nature and we wouldn't tolerate confiscation. We all know it and so do "they". These guys are playing the long game. They know they will never get my guns, your guns, our guns, so they are just going to make it harder and harder to use them, shoot them at the range, take classes with them and remain proficient with them. We will keep them, but they will be kept underground and in the dark. They won't be publicly used and enjoyed as they are now, if these A-holes get their way. They are making our guns untransferable. When we die, no one else can own or legally take possession of our guns. Eventually, they will all fade away. They are attempting to rid the country of our pro-gun, pro-self defense, pro-self reliance ideals. They are failing and it is making them frustrated and panicky. The more they panic, the more they fail, and the more attention they draw to their true intentions. Obummer brought WAYYYYY more new shooters to the table than I have been able to bring in my lifetime. They've been playing it cool for decades. Once in a while in the past they pushed a little too hard and tipped their hand, and some of us that have been paying attention saw what they were up to, but their true disarmament agenda has been largely hidden from the general public. "I believe in the 2A, but…" Now they have gone full-retard and they aren't even trying to hide their agenda. Look at our history. Every time one of them jumps up and starts talking about gun control, gun sales go up, and the gun-control advocate loses their election. I saw this in the 70s' 80's, 90's and most recently with HRC and Trump. We aren't losing this fight, even if the MSM tries to make it look like we've already lost.
2. Years ago I studied WWII and some of what went on. We all know about Hitler's push for gun control. Had to disarm the jews before he could attempt his extermination of them. What I find some people don't know is the thing that enabled him to so easily disarm everyone is the laws passed by the politicians in power before him. The Weimar Republic passed the common sense gun registration laws around 1914, so that the government could keep track of all those dangerous guns in public hands. The German public, being the obedient to the government kind of people they are, complied. They saw no reason not to comply, and the government said they had to, so they did. When the next regime took power, Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s, they had a full list of where to go to pick up all the guns. We can never let this happen here. Never. There is a reason we don't have registration here. We need to explain this to people who don't understand it.
I'm discovering that a large percentage of Americans don't understand why we have guns and the 2A. The libs are intentionally trying to make our history disappear. My teachers in school in the 70s and 80s did not teach me about these things. I learned about them on my own. We who know better need to teach those who don't.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 16:38
Exhibit A:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges
A man in Seattle has had his gun confiscated by police after breaking no laws. The police took his gun without a warrant and without pressing any charges. Tyranny has officially taken hold on American soil.
This sets a precedent that government can now forcefully take guns away from an individual without a crime being committed or an arrest being made and without a warrant. In the name of fear and political exploitation of anti-gun rhetoric, a citizen’s Second Amendment rights have been ripped away from him by the government.
The new “red flag” law, which has taken hold in other states already, allows the courts and law enforcement to take away guns from individuals they deem are dangerous and they’ve just begun the confiscation. A man living in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle, Washington became the first individual in the state to have his firearm confiscated without any formal arrest or charges. The man was not identified by authorities.
Neighbors complained that the man had been “staring” at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm. He was not brandishing his weapon by any account, and open carrying is legal in the area, so he was abiding by the law. Other residents also complained that the man’s open carrying made them feel “uncomfortable” and “unsafe.”
“He was roaming the hallways with a .25 caliber automatic,” said Tony Montana, a man who lives in the same apartment complex as the gun owner and a person without any reasonable gun knowledge. Handguns are semi-automatic.
These lousy complaints from neighbors allowed police to use the newly passed state law to confiscate the man’s firearm because the man apparently stared at others. Maybe there’s a ban on staring at others in Washington we are unaware of. Under the extreme risk protection orders — also referred to as “erpos” or “red flag laws” — police (government officials) are now allowed to violate a person’s Second and Fourth Amendment rights (which are basic fundamental human rights) and take their legally acquired personal property if they are tattled on by offended liberals.
My take: So, his crime was staring out the window while daring to have a gun on him. I guess no more open carry--oh, and if you concealed carry they know who you are and they just have to show up and take your guns on some other excuse.
We have already witnessed several instances of TPTB enforcing whatever they want. Just look at the property forfeiture laws as they relate to drug seizures or supsected drug activity.
You think that won't be applied to firearms?
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/civil-asset-forfeiture-police-abuse-clarence-thomas/
Current asset-forfeiture practice, like much that is wrong with U.S. law enforcement, has its roots in the so-called war on drugs. The practice of seizing assets is ancient: It dates back at least to 17th-century maritime law, under which ships illegally transporting goods would be seized, along with the contraband inside. Asset forfeiture was used against bootleggers during Prohibition, but it really came into its own in the Reagan era, when the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 empowered federal and local law-enforcement agencies to take property from drug kingpins for their own use. The sudden, unlikely inventory of exotic cars and yachts possessed by law-enforcement agencies inspired that great cultural document of the 1980s: Miami Vice.
Asset forfeiture creates an obvious conflict of interest for law-enforcement agencies: Because the proceeds go into their budgets, they have a vested interest in maximizing the use of forfeiture in their jurisdictions. You will be less than surprised to learn that this has produced some serious abuses, and the law-enforcement tool intended to be used against centimillionaire cartel bosses inevitably ends up being used to harass — and loot — nobodies in East Funky. That is the nature of such innovations in government. It is why the city won’t fix your potholes but the revenue-producing red-light camera is never on the fritz for long.
(Here’s a prediction: In a fashion similar to that of the weapons in the war on drugs, the tools created for the so-called war on terror are going to present acute problems for Americans in 20 years — far beyond what they already have — as their metastatic spread throughout government continues.)
The spreading use of forfeiture has of course drawn resistance amid concerns about due process and outright abuse. The Supreme Court declined to hear a high-profile forfeiture case, Leonard v. Texas, for procedural reasons.
My take: We are teetering on the very razor's edge of gun confiscation: even if the bastards in charge have to confiscate them on a case-by-case basis.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 16:43
2. Years ago I studied WWII and some of what went on. We all know about Hitler's push for gun control. Had to disarm the jews before he could attempt his extermination of them. What I find some people don't know is the thing that enabled him to so easily disarm everyone is the laws passed by the politicians in power before him. The Weimar Republic passed the common sense gun registration laws around 1914, so that the government could keep track of all those dangerous guns in public hands. The German public, being the obedient to the government kind of people they are, complied. They saw no reason not to comply, and the government said they had to, so they did. When the next regime took power, Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s, they had a full list of where to go to pick up all the guns. We can never let this happen here. Never. There is a reason we don't have registration here. We need to explain this to people who don't understand it.
Yes, but as long as 4473's exist anywhere, the government is ONE step away from that registration. They may not be able to register every weapon, but...they don't NEED to. They will register EVERY GUN OWNER instead.
Yes, but as long as 4473's exist anywhere, the government is ONE step away from that registration. They may not be able to register every weapon, but...they don't NEED to. They will register EVERY GUN OWNER instead.
ditto any and every form anyone who thinks they are not data basing all this are silly
have kids ever been to the doctors these days most all ask about fire arms in the house
schools from what I understand is now a common thing for teachers to ask and get to know students ?
go buy a bunch of sudafed :)
I do think ammo and powder and other things will be controlled before as a step
will be fun to come back to threads like this in say 10 or 20 years see what has changed :)
Exhibit A:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges
My take: So, his crime was staring out the window while daring to have a gun on him. I guess no more open carry--oh, and if you concealed carry they know who you are and they just have to show up and take your guns on some other excuse.
We have already witnessed several instances of TPTB enforcing whatever they want. Just look at the property forfeiture laws as they relate to drug seizures or supsected drug activity.
You think that won't be applied to firearms?
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/civil-asset-forfeiture-police-abuse-clarence-thomas/
My take: We are teetering on the very razor's edge of gun confiscation: even if the bastards in charge have to confiscate them on a case-by-case basis.
It appears to be a little more complicated than staring at the neighbors.
Seattle police this week pre-emptively seized a firearm from a person considered an extreme risk under a new law.
On Thursday, police served an extreme risk protection order on a 31 year-old man in Belltown, requiring him to turn over all his firearms. The man had multiple incidents of harassment, including while armed, and had previously failed to comply with a judge’s order to surrender his guns as part of a criminal case, according to police. When he failed to appear for a court hearing, police got a warrant, confronted him outside his apartment and seized a .25 caliber handgun inside.
“He was harassing and threatening some of his neighbors, and the behavior had been escalating,” said Seattle police Detective Patrick Michaud, a department spokesman.
Extreme risk protection orders were created by Initiative 1491, which overwhelmingly approved by voters in 2016 and enacted last year. It authorized law enforcement, families and others to petition for removal of firearms from a person deemed a danger to themselves or others. The so-called “red flag” laws – also place in California, Oregon, Indiana and Connecticut – are now being considered in 24 other states following the mass shooting at Parkland, Fla., high school, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Seattle PD Crisis Response Squad Serves Extreme Risk Protection Order Warrant, Seizes Handgun
Written by Detective Patrick Michaud on March 2, 2018 2:30 pm
The Seattle Police Department became the first law enforcement agency in Washington State to serve an Extreme Risk Protection Order warrant on Thursday when officers from SPD’s Crisis Response Squad seized a handgun from a man in downtown Seattle.
Over the last year, police had received multiple calls about the man’s escalating behavior. In one recent incident, staff at a restaurant near the man’s home called police and reported that the man was harassing them while carrying a holstered firearm. Police also seized a shotgun from the man in another incident.
Due to his numerous contacts with police and escalating behavior, SPD’s Crisis Response Squad filed for an Extreme Risk Protection Order, requiring the man to turn over all firearms. After the man failed to turn over his firearms or appear in court for a hearing on the order, police obtained a warrant and responded to the man’s apartment in the 2200 block of 2nd Avenue just after 1 p.m. on March 1st and took him into custody.
The 31-year-old man met officers outside of his apartment and was taken into custody for violating a previous order to turn over his firearms. Officers then entered the man’s apartment and recovered a .25 caliber handgun. Police are also working to obtain several other firearms owned by the man, which are currently in possession of a family member.
So...some people are looking at this case as being what Broward Country Sheriff should have done...ie, a pattern of behavior that signaled an "extreme risk" = take the guns. Not supporting the concept...just sayin'.
.
Guys talking about civil war and revolution need a dose of reality. If the gov comes knocking and you decide to fight, you will die. Your family will die, too. Your AR-15 won’t mean shit when someone drives a MRAP through your front door. Cops have AR-15’s, also. And they will come in groups. I’m sure the North Hollywood bank robbers thought they could win.
And if a shooting war actually breaks out, and even a portion of the Military’s capability is unleashed, all the training in the world goes up in smoke under a Pred. The Military has been practicing asymmetric warfare and dealing with resistant individuals for 17 freaking years. Remember that our Founding Fathers were armed with similar weapons as their enemies. We are not.
If you think the Military and LEOs will defect instead of confiscating, you are incorrect. Most of them will “follow orders”. We’ve seen this play out everywhere from Louisiana to Germany. Even many guys saying they wouldn’t do it. Besides, cops aren’t pro-2a. SOME cops are pro-2a. Maybe even many cops. But far, far from all. We are biased because of the people we hang out with.
And underground production of ammo like moonshine? You guys know our hobby is loud, right? Sure, we can keep it quiet and covert, but it certainly won’t be as fun as it is now.
I feel the most likely scenario is the one a previous poster mentioned where they don’t try to confiscate unless you get caught, like in a fire or traffic stop. That one is pretty plausible. Our best bet against that is prevention.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I just laugh a little when people do all the saber rattling. I’m not saying don’t resist. Just be realistic in your expectations of the outcome. Maybe send your wife and kids out of town.
Think things that go BOOM. Things that go BANG are an adjunct only.
If my family dies, guess who else gets to die too? Tit for tat.
And on that note I'll drop the mike and walk off.......
PS---Americans are a resourceful bunch.
Civil War, probably not. Massive Civil Disobedience and non-compliance, most probably. I can also envision sabotage and vandalism of any vehicles or facilities part of the Law Enforcement arm that tries to enforce confiscation. This kind of guerrilla activity would certainly happen. Once the reporting in the media goes viral, it would happen all over. The 1 gallon milk jug mixed with motor oil and gasoline works pretty good.
A huge number of Americans are not just going to give up their firearms. Not gonna happen. The more they push against the gun owing public, the more rigid the response will be.
Pretty much what I was driving at. All of it. ;)
The whole idea of US Military executing confiscation is a bit silly:
1) Posse Comitatus- yep, "they" could declare insurrection or local leo incapable of maintaining public order (due to bush era softening, spit spit)
But it would trigger a fairly large constitutional issue if it was ever enacted for a 2A issue.
And yes, this exact scenario is discussed in mil ethics courses at West Point, etc.
Some big brass might go along. Most rank & file and company grade officers would not.
Maybe the USMC and Navy will do it, since they were not named. Them and the National Guard.
2) Unlike, A-stan, the military and LEO families have to live here. If it ever got rough, there is simply no safe haven for them. That will change the willpower of any who chose to take up arms against their fellow citizens.
3) The active Army is not that big. 450-500k active total. 190k committed overseas. Another 100k "institutional" (training, etc). We have 30-31 BCTs of roughly 4500 soldiers, which is our real fighting force. Third to a half of which are committed overseas, more on standby to do so.
More GA hunters kill a deer each year than we have fighting soldiers available domestically, just to put it into perspective.
Confiscation is not something that can be done by fighters, bombers and carriers. So the size of the USAF and USN is largely meaningless.
For all the reasons outlined before, there is not enough manpower or political will to execute confiscation at a large scale.
You can look to England, Australia and similar for our future. First semis, then pistols, then bolt guns and other repeaters. Amnesty days, Turn in contraband, register the still legal, at least until they have to be turned in, etc.
Any not turned in will be turned in by their kids or when accidently found. Some folks will be prosecuted, like the 90yo German and English men found periodically with ww2 weapons in their basement.
You'll have a bunch of unenforceable laws that get selectively enforced when needed at an individual level. Or if unlucky. Or ratted out by your ex. Welcome to the USSR.
I'm reminded of a Red Barchetta
That too.
Nailed it. Although 90% of us might be too squeamish to do so right now, let some family members of gun owners come to tragic ends and you will see a backlash where kidnappings, torture, hanging people from bridges, leaving bodies on the side of the road, etc., will become just like the drug wars in Mexico. It will be horrible. I hope we never ever go there.
And that is the God's honest truth. No one should ever hope it goes there because what you describe is exactly what would happen. American's have a mean streak of vindictiveness, and it would be amped up by the feeling of betrayal.
Doc Safari
03-06-18, 17:18
And that is the God's honest truth. No one should ever hope it goes there because what you describe is exactly what would happen. American's have a mean streak of vindictiveness, and it would be amped up by the feeling of betrayal.
And it's not only gun confiscation. I suspect that a hidden, palpable anger has been building within the soul of the patriotic American for decades that fundamentally "we have already lost our country." The confiscation order will just be the straw that breaks the camel's back and the American patriot will shake his fist in the air and declare, "THAT.....TEARS.....IT."
I think that this would sum it up:
https://youtu.be/ew2LNrXsI_M?t=3
So what are you saying then? How does our military capability, which is largely strategic in nature, translate to effectively disarming US citizens?
All I’m getting at is that I don’t think door to door confiscation will happen, and I especially don’t think the military will be doing the confiscation. But there seems to be a fantasy in some molon labe type circles of getting in shootouts vs cops or Soldiers if they come for the weapons. Even if you win that fight short term, then what? They’ll be back with more friends and less sympathy. Everyone loses. They don’t have to be effective occupiers to eff our lives up.
I hear a lot of thoughts that police or military will join “our” side. Its easy to think that because we feel that we are right. We have a bias. I don’t think its that easy or simple. Didn’t the NOPD confiscate guns during Katrina?
The whole scenario is ugly, and hopefully unrealistic. Just take a step back and look at this thread from a third party perspective. We are talking about some very grave shit. We need to be careful what we wish for.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 21:07
All I’m getting at is that I don’t think door to door confiscation will happen, and I especially don’t think the military will be doing the confiscation. But there seems to be a fantasy in some molon labe type circles of getting in shootouts vs cops or Soldiers if they come for the weapons. Even if you win that fight short term, then what? They’ll be back with more friends and less sympathy. Everyone loses. They don’t have to be effective occupiers to eff our lives up.
I hear a lot of thoughts that police or military will join “our” side. Its easy to think that because we feel that we are right. We have a bias. I don’t think its that easy or simple. Didn’t the NOPD confiscate guns during Katrina?
The whole scenario is ugly, and hopefully unrealistic. Just take a step back and look at this thread from a third party perspective. We are talking about some very grave shit. We need to be careful what we wish for.
I can't argue with any of that. With luck we'll never go down that road, but I fear that it's inevitable.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-18, 21:21
Jordan Peterson has some interesting videos on the Nazis. The gist is, if you think you would have stood up, if you had the option to just go along (if not actively participate), you are fooling yourself. Not many stood up to the NAZIs and that is with a crazy Hitler running things.
It would be a shit show and a modern French Revolution.
We need to be careful what we wish for.
The only comments I've seen on this thread addressing this have unanimously agreed that we all hope this never happens. Nobody is wishing for violence or war in our streets. Quite the opposite.
Jordan Peterson has some interesting videos on the Nazis. The gist is, if you think you would have stood up, if you had the option to just go along (if not actively participate), you are fooling yourself. Not many stood up to the NAZIs and that is with a crazy Hitler running things.
It would be a shit show and a modern French Revolution.
Some would go along with it, sure. But this ain't Germany and we ain't obedient Europeans. We are defiant Americans. Defiant and rebellious to the death in some cases. Look how our country started. F*** YOU King George!!! We'd rather be dead than live under your BS! We fought and beat the largest, best trained, most advanced military force of the day, and kicked their assess. Not without significant losses and sacrifice, but we were willing to take those losses and sacrifices to win. And win we did.
I recently had a conversation with a German guy about traffic tickets. We were talking about those automatic photo ticket machines. I told them over here people just ignore the ticket that comes, and they don't pay it, and the government can't or won't do anything about it. I asked what happens over there if someone doesn't pay?
Him: They have to pay.
Me: What if they don't?
Him: Its not a choice, they have to pay.
Me: What if they are just crazy and refuse to pay?
Him: They can't. Everybody must pay. It is required.
Me: Required by who?
Him: The government.
Me: What if I just give them the finger and say: "F U!!! I won't pay." Then what would happen?
Him: I don't know. That doesn't happen because everyone has to pay and they all pay.
Me: There is not one defiant person in all of Germany?
Him: Its not a matter of defiance. If you get a ticket you have to pay.
Me: Or what? What will they do if I don't pay?
Him: That's not a choice. You must pay.
We went round and round for several minutes. I tired to phrase it multiple ways. It became clear that in his mind, the government MUST be obeyed no matter what they say. They are the government. They are in charge. You have to do what they say. There is no choice. There can be no disagreement. You just have to do it because that is the law and they said so.
America and Americans are about as opposite of that as you can get. We are going to do what we want to do one way or another. Freedom. We don't give a sh*t what anyone one says, and we give even less of a sh*t when our corrupt, thieving, lying, tyrannical government types say to do it. Look at prohibition. The war on drugs. We just don't obey over here. When we do obey, its only because we haven't figured out how to defy the order yet without major consequence. I've told more than one bad guy: "The only reason you are still alive is because murder is illegal and I haven't figured out how to get away with yours yet."
So no. I'm not fooling myself, and neither are my LE friends who say they won't enforce this crap. Some will follow orders. Some will not. Some will comply, some will flee the country, and some will stand and fight. Seems like the left is determined to start this fight, and all of us are trying like hell to avoid it because we know how ugly it would be.
Most of the German army did not like or trust the nazis
Remember Obama special force as well armed he talked about building
The nazis were small % but ran the country same can happen here
Citizens will take sides and military will do what it’s told by the leaders for the most part or face consequences themselves from the future nazis aka democrats whatever they will be calling themselves
Sadly we fear history repeating they think they are smart enough to know how to pull it off this time around
Jordan Peterson has some interesting videos on the Nazis. The gist is, if you think you would have stood up, if you had the option to just go along (if not actively participate), you are fooling yourself. Not many stood up to the NAZIs and that is with a crazy Hitler running things.
It would be a shit show and a modern French Revolution.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 22:16
Some would go along with it, sure. But this ain't Germany and we ain't obedient Europeans. We are defiant Americans. Defiant and rebellious to the death in some cases. Look how our country started. F*** YOU King George!!! We'd rather be dead than live under your BS! We fought and beat the largest, best trained, most advanced military force of the day, and kicked their assess. Not without significant losses and sacrifice, but we were willing to take those losses and sacrifices to win. And win we did.
I recently had a conversation with a German guy about traffic tickets. We were talking about those automatic photo ticket machines. I told them over here people just ignore the ticket that comes, and they don't pay it, and the government can't or won't do anything about it. I asked what happens over there if someone doesn't pay?
Him: They have to pay.
Me: What if they don't?
Him: Its not a choice, they have to pay.
Me: What if they are just crazy and refuse to pay?
Him: They can't. Everybody must pay. It is required.
Me: Required by who?
Him: The government.
Me: What if I just give them the finger and say: "F U!!! I won't pay." Then what would happen?
Him: I don't know. That doesn't happen because everyone has to pay and they all pay.
Me: There is not one defiant person in all of Germany?
Him: Its not a matter of defiance. If you get a ticket you have to pay.
Me: Or what? What will they do if I don't pay?
Him: That's not a choice. You must pay.
We went round and round for several minutes. I tired to phrase it multiple ways. It became clear that in his mind, the government MUST be obeyed no matter what they say. They are the government. They are in charge. You have to do what they say. There is no choice. There can be no disagreement. You just have to do it because that is the law and they said so.
America and Americans are about as opposite of that as you can get. We are going to do what we want to do one way or another. Freedom. We don't give a sh*t what anyone one says, and we give even less of a sh*t when our corrupt, thieving, lying, tyrannical government types say to do it. Look at prohibition. The war on drugs. We just don't obey over here. When we do obey, its only because we haven't figured out how to defy the order yet without major consequence. I've told more than one bad guy: "The only reason you are still alive is because murder is illegal and I haven't figured out how to get away with yours yet."
So no. I'm not fooling myself, and neither are my LE friends who say they won't enforce this crap. Some will follow orders. Some will not. Some will comply, some will flee the country, and some will stand and fight. Seems like the left is determined to start this fight, and all of us are trying like hell to avoid it because we know how ugly it would be.
There's a fair bit of truth in this. Pretty much everyone I know disregards the law to a certain extent, some obviously more than others. Some people accept the government line, but most are extremely skeptical or outright cynical.
There's a fair bit of truth in this. Pretty much everyone I know disregards the law to a certain extent, some obviously more than others. Some people accept the government line, but most are extremely skeptical or outright cynical.
Have you spent much time in Germany or Europe? If yes, did you notice a difference between them and Americans in this regard?
And nevermind the people who will "go on the offensive". A person who wakes up one morning realizing he's a felon today when he wasn't yesterday just because of some black rifles in his safe might decide to "teach somebody a lesson."
Not that I condone or in any way agree with his actions, but McVeigh was created at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Where it not for those two events he'd be just another fringe militia guy cruising gun shows selling bumper stickers and books.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-18, 23:40
Have you spent much time in Germany or Europe? If yes, did you notice a difference between them and Americans in this regard?
No, but I served with a few guys who were born overseas and they had the same mindset. One of them lived in the Soviet Union until he was 19. Nicest guy you ever met, but he accepted the government line as literal gospel. We got into a debate about the patriot act one day and he couldn't wrap his head around why we were against it.
Guys talking about civil war and revolution need a dose of reality. If the gov comes knocking and you decide to fight, you will die. Your family will die, too. Your AR-15 won’t mean shit when someone drives a MRAP through your front door. Cops have AR-15’s, also. And they will come in groups. I’m sure the North Hollywood bank robbers thought they could win.
.
The government came knocking at Ruby Ridge and Waco, again I don't think it was the results they were hoping for. Neither side will have a clear victory, lots of the wrong people will get killed on both sides. The government "could" roll tanks and shut it down, but I don't think a US "Tienanmen Square" would play well on the news.
Four students were killed and 9 injured at Kent State almost 50 years ago and we still talk about it.
No, but I served with a few guys who were born overseas and they had the same mindset. One of them lived in the Soviet Union until he was 19. Nicest guy you ever met, but he accepted the government line as literal gospel. We got into a debate about the patriot act one day and he couldn't wrap his head around why we were against it.
Yeah. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about. People from places like that should know and understand better than anyone, but at least some of them don't seem to get it. Then, on the opposite end of the spectrum, we have people like Yoni who knows darn well why people should be armed, and people like Alex V that came from a communist country and could write you a list of the potential abuse that could from from the so called "patriot" act. I'm thankful we have people like them in our country, but I can't understand the mental disconnect from people like my German friend or your Soviet comrade.
The government came knocking at Ruby Ridge and Waco, again I don't think it was the results they were hoping for. Neither side will have a clear victory, lots of the wrong people will get killed on both sides. The government "could" roll tanks and shut it down, but I don't think a US "Tienanmen Square" would play well on the news.
Four students were killed and 9 injured at Kent State almost 50 years ago and we still talk about it.
We are still a fairly young nation and have a shorter attention span as a society than we should. There are people still alive that were actually at Kent State when that happened. In 20-30 more years there will be about as many people who know about Kent State as there are that know about the Bonus Army now.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-18, 01:01
Not that I condone or in any way agree with his actions, but McVeigh was created at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Where it not for those two events he'd be just another fringe militia guy cruising gun shows selling bumper stickers and books.
McVeigh was always interesting to me because our ages and backgrounds through HS were so similar and he ended up doing what he did. I always felt that there was some kind of middle east influence on him. From headtrash from his time there to more direct influence. IIRC, the treatment of arabs was one of his beefs. Been awhile.
Side-note. My future MIL bought me a one way ticket to Denver (was driving back with my future wife). That was during McVeigh's trial here and I got the 3rd degree and two bag searches when I checked in for the flight.
The funniest thing is that euro'wennies' are LESS PC than we are here in the US. Whenever our guys come over the say something cringe-worthy at least once a day. They seem like Mad Men compared to what we do now.
Germans are 'by the book'? The Japanese make them look like tardy slobs.
China is banning 'Animal Farm'? Funny thing is that I purposefully bring a copy of 'Atlas Shrugged' when I go over there....
On the horror of civil wars, I was talking to a guy this weekend at a USPSA rifle match. He as from Vietnam and his parents were pro-American. He was put into a 're-education camp' at the age of three...... His comment was something like "it is truly horrific what one person can do to another".... ugh.
Diamondback
03-07-18, 01:21
The government came knocking at Ruby Ridge and Waco, again I don't think it was the results they were hoping for. Neither side will have a clear victory, lots of the wrong people will get killed on both sides. The government "could" roll tanks and shut it down, but I don't think a US "Tienanmen Square" would play well on the news.
Bear in mind the media spin... we know it wouldn't play well in rural to exurban areas, but in the Concrete Jungles and the inner liberal suburbs... well, here's how boardmate "Camelfilter" at Northwest Firearms put it.
Could be 80 years from now:
"Breaking news...the local village chief, after cordening off the entire property, calls in the state protectorate response team. The response team calls in the special frederal ballistic hazmat crew. The ballistic hazmat crew removes the lower safely and responsibly through the roof. The house, obviously is bulldozed.
Found in the back yard are the remains of the family whom once actually owned the property (imagine having actually owning property! Oh How anti-State those people were back then!). It's assumed that the family had resisted the weapons confiscation program of 2023, and were repurposed. Documents of the confiscation program in that grid have been misplaced, so "the registry" will never know which confiscation group was involved in the families repurpose as opposed to there re-education..."
...in other breaking news..."the State has just now released new brown colored overalls for those designated to field work. The new brown color is similar to previously assigned brown overalls for those assigned to waste reclamation & procurement systems. All previous off -grey colored field use overalls must be turned in by 4 weeks ago, meal tickets have been confiscated. As always & for a friendly reminder, having more than 2weeks worth of hard-tack on hand is considered hoarding, punishable by family repurpose...."
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/inspired-by-ca-gunpocalypse-80-group-buy-research-only.224025/page-3#post-1484826
platoonDaddy
03-07-18, 05:07
Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations: No Laws Broken, No Warrant, No Charges
Neighbors complained that the man had been “staring” at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm. He was not brandishing his weapon by any account, and open carrying is legal in the area, so he was abiding by the law. Other residents also complained that the man’s open carrying made them feel “uncomfortable” and “unsafe.”
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges
I think it will be more subtle than door to door. If (when?) guns are outlawed it will merely be "your gun is now illegal, turn in at the nearest PD with no consequence". No door to door. But if you are caught with it bam, 10 years/$10000 fine. Or something to that effect. And if you pop a perp breaking into your house you better use your trusty wheel gun and not your Glock assault pistol or you will do more time than the perp. IMHO.
Some would go along with it, sure. But this ain't Germany and we ain't obedient Europeans. We are defiant Americans. Defiant and rebellious to the death in some cases. Look how our country started. F*** YOU King George!!! We'd rather be dead than live under your BS! We fought and beat the largest, best trained, most advanced military force of the day, and kicked their assess. Not without significant losses and sacrifice, but we were willing to take those losses and sacrifices to win. And win we did.
I recently had a conversation with a German guy about traffic tickets. We were talking about those automatic photo ticket machines. I told them over here people just ignore the ticket that comes, and they don't pay it, and the government can't or won't do anything about it. I asked what happens over there if someone doesn't pay?
Him: They have to pay.
Me: What if they don't?
Him: Its not a choice, they have to pay.
Me: What if they are just crazy and refuse to pay?
Him: They can't. Everybody must pay. It is required.
Me: Required by who?
Him: The government.
Me: What if I just give them the finger and say: "F U!!! I won't pay." Then what would happen?
Him: I don't know. That doesn't happen because everyone has to pay and they all pay.
Me: There is not one defiant person in all of Germany?
Him: Its not a matter of defiance. If you get a ticket you have to pay.
Me: Or what? What will they do if I don't pay?
Him: That's not a choice. You must pay.
We went round and round for several minutes. I tired to phrase it multiple ways. It became clear that in his mind, the government MUST be obeyed no matter what they say. They are the government. They are in charge. You have to do what they say. There is no choice. There can be no disagreement. You just have to do it because that is the law and they said so.
America and Americans are about as opposite of that as you can get. We are going to do what we want to do one way or another. Freedom. We don't give a sh*t what anyone one says, and we give even less of a sh*t when our corrupt, thieving, lying, tyrannical government types say to do it. Look at prohibition. The war on drugs. We just don't obey over here. When we do obey, its only because we haven't figured out how to defy the order yet without major consequence. I've told more than one bad guy: "The only reason you are still alive is because murder is illegal and I haven't figured out how to get away with yours yet."
So no. I'm not fooling myself, and neither are my LE friends who say they won't enforce this crap. Some will follow orders. Some will not. Some will comply, some will flee the country, and some will stand and fight. Seems like the left is determined to start this fight, and all of us are trying like hell to avoid it because we know how ugly it would be.
People seem to forget we defeated the English with THE HELP of the French. Without their navel blockade among other things; the English would most likely have eventually won or forced us to the table for favorable terms.
If something along the lines of our First Revolution broke again in the near future; don’t expect any other countries to be lining up to offer the rebels any assistance ...
Just my 2 cents, but everyone would be much better off if the fight stayed in the legislative realm.
Having lived in Honduras
Extreme violence is the norm
Know some folks in Honduras. who would say fine and just hand over whatever but the next day/week that guy who took would be found in pieces
That would scare the pants off most maybe more than someone fighting back cause they know they would lose that fight
Scary what people are capable of when cornered
But nobody wants to live in a country like Honduras anymore and most Americans do not want to live in Europe either
Hope it never goes that far
I think it will be more subtle than door to door. If (when?) guns are outlawed it will merely be "your gun is now illegal, turn in at the nearest PD with no consequence". No door to door. But if you are caught with it bam, 10 years/$10000 fine. Or something to that effect. And if you pop a perp breaking into your house you better use your trusty wheel gun and not your Glock assault pistol or you will do more time than the perp. IMHO.
Yeah and ammo will be hard to buy and any time out shooting you will have leo roll up check what you are shooting etc.... limits of how much ammo one can have on them etc......
If it happens :)
Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations: No Laws Broken, No Warrant, No Charges
Neighbors complained that the man had been “staring” at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm. He was not brandishing his weapon by any account, and open carrying is legal in the area, so he was abiding by the law. Other residents also complained that the man’s open carrying made them feel “uncomfortable” and “unsafe.”
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges
Other side of that story.
Seattle police this week pre-emptively seized a firearm from a person considered an extreme risk under a new law.
On Thursday, police served an extreme risk protection order on a 31 year-old man in Belltown, requiring him to turn over all his firearms. The man had multiple incidents of harassment, including while armed, and had previously failed to comply with a judge’s order to surrender his guns as part of a criminal case, according to police. When he failed to appear for a court hearing, police got a warrant, confronted him outside his apartment and seized a .25 caliber handgun inside.
“He was harassing and threatening some of his neighbors, and the behavior had been escalating,” said Seattle police Detective Patrick Michaud, a department spokesman.
Extreme risk protection orders were created by Initiative 1491, which overwhelmingly approved by voters in 2016 and enacted last year. It authorized law enforcement, families and others to petition for removal of firearms from a person deemed a danger to themselves or others. The so-called “red flag” laws – also place in California, Oregon, Indiana and Connecticut – are now being considered in 24 other states following the mass shooting at Parkland, Fla., high school, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Seattle PD Crisis Response Squad Serves Extreme Risk Protection Order Warrant, Seizes Handgun
Written bhttps://www.m4carbine.net/search.php?do=getnew&contenttype=vBForum_Posty Detective Patrick Michaud on March 2, 2018 2:30 pm
The Seattle Police Department became the first law enforcement agency in Washington State to serve an Extreme Risk Protection Order warrant on Thursday when officers from SPD’s Crisis Response Squad seized a handgun from a man in downtown Seattle.
Over the last year, police had received multiple calls about the man’s escalating behavior. In one recent incident, staff at a restaurant near the man’s home called police and reported that the man was harassing them while carrying a holstered firearm. Police also seized a shotgun from the man in another incident.
Due to his numerous contacts with police and escalating behavior, SPD’s Crisis Response Squad filed for an Extreme Risk Protection Order, requiring the man to turn over all firearms. After the man failed to turn over his firearms or appear in court for a hearing on the order, police obtained a warrant and responded to the man’s apartment in the 2200 block of 2nd Avenue just after 1 p.m. on March 1st and took him into custody.
The 31-year-old man met officers outside of his apartment and was taken into custody for violating a previous order to turn over his firearms. Officers then entered the man’s apartment and recovered a .25 caliber handgun. Police are also working to obtain several other firearms owned by the man, which are currently in possession of a family member.
So...some people are looking at this case as being what Broward Country Sheriff should have done...ie, a pattern of behavior that signaled an "extreme risk" = take the guns. Not supporting the concept...just sayin'. If we're going to follow the "guns don't kill people, crazy people kill people", adhere to the "mental health" line and agree that crazy people shouldn't have guns, then we're saddled with the problem of defining what "crazy" is, who is crazy, and how do we identify them? The article above may or may not be an overreach in that regard...the spin from both sides is likely to be profound. But if "because mental health" is the answer, then we all have to be prepared for more of this exact same situation.
I look at the incident in WA and something hit me. The voters approved Initiative 1491 and it was codified into law March 2 2016, and this incident with SPD was the first time it was used in the whole state.
This does not show any abuse at this point in time by the police.
We have some choices to make;
1. The Second is what it says and even people with mental problems can have guns. I know people that have made this their line in the sand.
2. Adopt some measures like this one in WA, which may save us from some mass shootings and thus lower public pressure to ban Ar's and other guns. I would love to see this adopted nation wide, if as part of the bill we got CCW reciprocity.
Does this make me a traitor to the Constitution, some will say yes. My position is we have a society that has evolved from a rural environment to an urban one where now most of the people in the cities don't have a gun or worse don't see the need for one. I think I am engaging in Realpolitik, but we must always monitor how the government is safeguarding or eroding our rights,
People seem to forget we defeated the English with THE HELP of the French. Without their navel blockade among other things; the English would most likely have eventually won or forced us to the table for favorable terms.
If something along the lines of our First Revolution broke again in the near future; don’t expect any other countries to be lining up to offer the rebels any assistance ...
Just my 2 cents, but everyone would be much better off if the fight stayed in the legislative realm.
I think we might be surprised at the help we might gain from unlikely sources. And I will leave it at that, because some of those places we might not like. But, unlike the war against ol' King George, the military we would be fighting is here, they are us. You have a real possibility if things kick off because the Government oversteps their authority, decides to literally throw the bill of rights out the window, and wage open war on the people that you would have entire units defect. Or refuse the order. That could be enough to swing the tide. This whole discussion about waging a guerrilla war might be for not, the military might throw in on the side of the people and you could have a coup and the entire "war" ends up being over in the span of weeks while they figure out how to pop open the doors where the cowards barricaded themselves.
Also, unlike the Revolution I don't think the government, at least not on a wide scale, has the willingness to wage total war against an enemy any more. They lack the stomach, they lack the ability to handle the media's attention, be that the main stream, or social media, cameras are everywhere now and the atrocities would be spread all over the web, and even if they try to shut that down, there are plenty who can go around, under, or through the blockade there. And, If we can't burn a terrorist group to the ground, I just don't see them being willing to do it to american citizens. They will have ROEs, they will want to have their show trials, they will have to keep up appearances. Those who revolt will make and change their ROE's at will. That may be all that it takes. Until then we fight in other venues and prepare as best as we can.
How can their be a gun "BUY BACK" when the government never owned them in the first place?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-18, 10:59
How can their be a gun "BUY BACK" when the government never owned them in the first place?
M1 Garand and nothing else...
Want to stop the buy-'back'? Make it so that it is financed by a onetime tax, and if you own a gun you don't have to pay the tax. Why should I pay a tax to buy back my guns?
Talk about a great way to get gun ownership up....
300,000,000 guns. Something like half of the 171,000,000 tax payers would come out to about $1500-2000 grand tax. Sure, I see that flying....
“...we must always monitor how the government is safeguarding or eroding our rights...”
I’m not too sure that ANY government, by its very nature, is inclined to “safeguard our rights”. If anything, governments are inclined to find reasons to expand their powers. Written constitutions limit power; “living constitutions” keep the form but are essentially neutered.
And don’t get me started on “Stroke of a pen, law of the land. Cool”.
I think it will be more subtle than door to door. If (when?) guns are outlawed it will merely be "your gun is now illegal, turn in at the nearest PD with no consequence". No door to door. But if you are caught with it bam, 10 years/$10000 fine. Or something to that effect. And if you pop a perp breaking into your house you better use your trusty wheel gun and not your Glock assault pistol or you will do more time than the perp. IMHO.
I agree with you on no door to door. All the gov has to do is lock your bank account. No turn in guns we know you have, no money for food, bills, or shit paper. Online ammo sales, CC sales, forum and social media posts, they can figure out who has what for most people. How many people could go a week without soft paper to wipe their ass? People would be lining up to turn them in. Couple that with the liberal teachings of schools today and a lack of understanding or even caring about your rights and what they mean by today’s youth and I think we are less than 15 years away from being England. Sad.
RetroRevolver77
03-07-18, 13:15
I think it will be more subtle than door to door. If (when?) guns are outlawed it will merely be "your gun is now illegal, turn in at the nearest PD with no consequence". No door to door. But if you are caught with it bam, 10 years/$10000 fine. Or something to that effect. And if you pop a perp breaking into your house you better use your trusty wheel gun and not your Glock assault pistol or you will do more time than the perp. IMHO.
If the socialists decide to utilize full on voter fraud, as they've done in previous elections to take over the government, enact policies to disarm their political rivals- then the country as was founded ceases to exist. At that point, we are no longer beholden to any unconstitutional laws passed under such an illegitimate government. Simply, if they outlaw our firearms then they no longer are upholding the Constitution and such laws are nullified.
Good luck while rotting in jail over nullified laws. The law will be - And always has been- what they say the law is. Shall not be infringed has been run over 10 ways from Sunday.
Income taxes are not constitutional either...
I look at the incident in WA and something hit me. The voters approved Initiative 1491 and it was codified into law March 2 2016, and this incident with SPD was the first time it was used in the whole state.
This does not show any abuse at this point in time by the police.
We have some choices to make;
1. The Second is what it says and even people with mental problems can have guns. I know people that have made this their line in the sand.
2. Adopt some measures like this one in WA, which may save us from some mass shootings and thus lower public pressure to ban Ar's and other guns. I would love to see this adopted nation wide, if as part of the bill we got CCW reciprocity.
Does this make me a traitor to the Constitution, some will say yes. My position is we have a society that has evolved from a rural environment to an urban one where now most of the people in the cities don't have a gun or worse don't see the need for one. I think I am engaging in Realpolitik, but we must always monitor how the government is safeguarding or eroding our rights,
“Mental illness” is too broad. If we can quantify it to only apply to violent behavior, i may get on board, cautiously and slowly.
Tons of people are on meds for depression and anxiety and are not a threat to anyone.
A schizophrenic with a history of violence is another story, but they should get help, support and be monitored and have their rights. At the end of the day, if you are trusted to be with the population, you should be able to defend yourself.
If the government get's to the point that they are searching old purchases of ammo and guns and seizing bank accounts. Then I no longer will be living here, or I will do what my family has done since time immemorial.
Survive and Thrive .
I will take all the lessons from my life's work and apply them along with other family members to get through a bad time and hopefully make a lot of money.
“Mental illness” is too broad. If we can quantify it to only apply to violent behavior, i may get on board, cautiously and slowly.
Tons of people are on meds for depression and anxiety and are not a threat to anyone.
A schizophrenic with a history of violence is another story, but they should get help, support and be monitored and have their rights. At the end of the day, if you are trusted to be with the population, you should be able to defend yourself.
I agree and have been saying this a while.
But should it only be acts of violence because that should be pretty much covered under existing laws?
Nobody, not even kids, should be singled out just because they're on meds. The majority of the population are functioning members of society because of certain medications. People with CTE, PTSD, etc. may be suicidal for the rest of their lives without medication but how far do we go to determine they're taking their meds as they should?
I'm way out of my lane, but patient confidentiality should be waived in the most extreme circumstances. I thought that was already the case but evidently something isn't working.
I think members of the medical community need to step up and offer some **good** ideas because I've yet to hear much from them except more gun ban talk. However if you go down the road of stripping people of their rights because they've talked about hurting themselves or others you're in dangerous territory. People will stop seeking help.
RetroRevolver77
03-07-18, 14:59
If the government get's to the point that they are searching old purchases of ammo and guns and seizing bank accounts. Then I no longer will be living here, or I will do what my family has done since time immemorial.
Survive and Thrive .
I will take all the lessons from my life's work and apply them along with other family members to get through a bad time and hopefully make a lot of money.
Then why not leave now?
The Crisis by Thomas Paine
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/c-01.htm
I agree and have been saying this a while.
But should it only be acts of violence because that should be pretty much covered under existing laws?
Nobody, not even kids, should be singled out just because they're on meds. The majority of the population are functioning members of society because of certain medications. People with CTE, PTSD, etc. may be suicidal for the rest of their lives without medication but how far do we go to determine they're taking their meds as they should?
I'm way out of my lane, but patient confidentiality should be waived in the most extreme circumstances. I thought that was already the case but evidently something isn't working.
I think members of the medical community need to step up and offer some ideas because I've yet to hear much from them. However if you go down the road of stripping people of their rights because they've talked about hurting themselves or others you're in dangerous territory. People will stop seeking help.
"The Medical Community" has offered ideas....virtually every specialty organization in Medicine has a position statement regarding background checks, assault rifles, and other aspects of "sensible gun laws". An example:
The AAFP, American Academy of Pediatrics, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American College of Physicians, and American Psychiatric Association -- laid out three concrete steps for the president and Congress to take:
Label violence caused by the use of guns as a national public health epidemic.
Fund appropriate research at the CDC as part of the 2018 federal budget.
Establish constitutionally appropriate restrictions on the manufacturing and sale, for civilian use, of large-capacity magazines and firearms with features designed to increase their rapid and
extended killing capacity.
As to mental health...it's a legal question, not a medical question. "The Medical Community" is constrained by Federal law, a myriad of state laws, and professional ethics.
leibermuster
03-07-18, 15:10
If the government get's to the point that they are searching old purchases of ammo and guns and seizing bank accounts. Then I no longer will be living here, or I will do what my family has done since time immemorial.
Survive and Thrive .
I will take all the lessons from my life's work and apply them along with other family members to get through a bad time and hopefully make a lot of money.
Where are you going to move. You are in the US. What country is better than the US or equal to it in regards to gun ownership and almost everything else. Besides say Switzerland?
On a side note.
You have 2A.Americans are still losing the battle. Lol. Kind of a sad state I must admit.
Wish I had a time machine.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-18, 15:54
“...we must always monitor how the government is safeguarding or eroding our rights...”
I’m not too sure that ANY government, by its very nature, is inclined to “safeguard our rights”. If anything, governments are inclined to find reasons to expand their powers. Written constitutions limit power; “living constitutions” keep the form but are essentially neutered.
And don’t get me started on “Stroke of a pen, law of the land. Cool”.
Ben Shapiro has a great talk about how only the govt can take away your rights. The South had laws about segregation that enforced it and penalized those that didn't do it.
“Mental illness” is too broad. If we can quantify it to only apply to violent behavior, i may get on board, cautiously and slowly.
Tons of people are on meds for depression and anxiety and are not a threat to anyone.
A schizophrenic with a history of violence is another story, but they should get help, support and be monitored and have their rights. At the end of the day, if you are trusted to be with the population, you should be able to defend yourself.
We have an example of the law and how it hasn't been used to round people up into Gulags. Unless we get a way to get the guns out of dangerously crazy people's hands, we will lose more and more gun rights. Seriously, are people here that low on self-esteem that they think that they can be confused with someone like the Aurora, Sandyhook and MSD shooter???? The current system didn't catch those guys and the places that have systems haven't been abused so far.
Diamondback
03-07-18, 15:55
Wish I had a time machine.
Yeah, me too... and if it can't be a round trip via DeLorean, a few T-800s to have go Take Care of Business for us. Imagine how much better a world we'd live in if the Communist Manifesto had never been written...
"The Medical Community" has offered ideas....virtually every specialty organization in Medicine has a position statement regarding background checks, assault rifles, and other aspects of "sensible gun laws". An example:
As to mental health...it's a legal question, not a medical question. "The Medical Community" is constrained by Federal law, a myriad of state laws, and professional ethics.
I edited that post to say that I haven't heard any **good** ideas from much of the medical profession, community, etc. (not sure what you'd have me call it) other than more gun ban gibberish.
I know about the liberal associations and docs that try to get kids to rat on their parents having guns. I know the sick way they think that guns are a "health hazard."
I guess what I'm getting at is to your last point about legal issues. I don't see why the associations and doctors wouldn't be on board with a better way of doing things besides banning guns. I'm not blaming all doctors and I know this is a personal thing for you.
That's a cop out for all of those associations to kick the can down the road and lay the blame at the President's and lawmaker's feet.
Don't they realize that when many of these nut cases visited a psychiatrist there were obvious warning signs and maybe even actionable threats? It's also a cop out for them to say "well, the law and doctor patient confidentiality prevents me from..."
Let's hold their feet to the fire if the record shows they failed to report a patient for psychotic behavior and threats when they've went on to commit horrific crimes.
I know there are laws about privacy and ethical standards but the ethical thing to do is report these psychos!
ETA: I see your post #125 about the new Seattle law that actually works.
Then why not leave now?
The Crisis by Thomas Paine
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/c-01.htm
Because I think we can win this battle! I really think the country hit rock bottom under obama and over the next 50 years we can swing it back.
ETA: I see your post #125 about the new Seattle law that actually works.
Yes. It does work, it appears. Of course...it's a two-edge sword. On the one hand, it's held up as a potentially very effective means of identifying and addressing potential firearms threats. On the other hand, it's held up as a draconian method of robbing people of due process and representing the potential for law enforcement abuse.
All I’m getting at is that I don’t think door to door confiscation will happen, and I especially don’t think the military will be doing the confiscation. But there seems to be a fantasy in some molon labe type circles of getting in shootouts vs cops or Soldiers if they come for the weapons. Even if you win that fight short term, then what? They’ll be back with more friends and less sympathy. Everyone loses. They don’t have to be effective occupiers to eff our lives up.
I hear a lot of thoughts that police or military will join “our” side. Its easy to think that because we feel that we are right. We have a bias. I don’t think its that easy or simple. Didn’t the NOPD confiscate guns during Katrina?
The whole scenario is ugly, and hopefully unrealistic. Just take a step back and look at this thread from a third party perspective. We are talking about some very grave shit. We need to be careful what we wish for.
I really don't get the vibe that anyone here relishes that type of thing. Maybe on some other sites, but it is insanity and no one in their right mind should want that (on either side). I think what you see here is folks trying to illustrate what could happen when a shit-ton of people do NOT just roll over. I really don't think anybody here wishes for it.
The government came knocking at Ruby Ridge and Waco, again I don't think it was the results they were hoping for. Neither side will have a clear victory, lots of the wrong people will get killed on both sides. The government "could" roll tanks and shut it down, but I don't think a US "Tienanmen Square" would play well on the news.
Four students were killed and 9 injured at Kent State almost 50 years ago and we still talk about it.
Yeah, here and there but not everywhere at the same time. Whack-a-mole comes to mind......where you are, we aren't.
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-18, 18:26
I really don't get the vibe that anyone here relishes that type of thing. Maybe on some other sites, but it is insanity and no one in their right mind should want that (on either side). I think what you see here is folks trying to illustrate what could happen when a shit-ton of people do NOT just roll over. I really don't think anybody here wishes for it.
Those on the other side DO relish the idea, because they have some delusion that they'll be completely unaffected while the stupid rednecks are killed off.
Yes. It does work, it appears. Of course...it's a two-edge sword. On the one hand, it's held up as a potentially very effective means of identifying and addressing potential firearms threats. On the other hand, it's held up as a draconian method of robbing people of due process and representing the potential for law enforcement abuse.
I don't see how this example in anyway robbed the guy of his right to due process:
Due to his numerous contacts with police and escalating behavior, SPD’s Crisis Response Squad filed for an Extreme Risk Protection Order, requiring the man to turn over all firearms. After the man failed to turn over his firearms or appear in court for a hearing on the order, police obtained a warrant and responded to the man’s apartment in the 2200 block of 2nd Avenue just after 1 p.m. on March 1st and took him into custody.
This is the response I made to such a statement on another forum regarding Trump's 'take the guns first, then due process statement' :
For some reason, Lord knows why, I defended President Trump on this, maybe it was just who I was defending him to, here goes:
We 'short circuit' due process in searches and seizures when they are made in exigent circumstances, so long as they are based on probable cause.
In those cases, it could be said that due process occurs after the fact, at the arraignment.
Unless of course you are seized by being shot dead, but even then your family gets a shot at due process.
We've been stumbling along that way for decades, for the most part it works.
I have very little problem ( as opposed to no problem) allowing LE to temporarily take control of a person's weapons based on PC that the person poses an irrational threat to themselves or others.
State laws would clearly state the factors LE considers in establishing PC, and in such cases a hearing within 72 hours should be mandatory unless waived by the person from whom the weapons were seized.
In the example given, Seattle, they 'filed' for an order, to me that means some type of over watch beyond a street officer's or social worker's desire to seize the weapons. After that failed, they got a warrant, apparently arrest and search. That there is some due process.
Then again, I'm not to upset over 'you don't fly, you don't buy' so long as there is some form of hearing to allow folks to contest their no fly status.
Yes. It does work, it appears. Of course...it's a two-edge sword. On the one hand, it's held up as a potentially very effective means of identifying and addressing potential firearms threats. On the other hand, it's held up as a draconian method of robbing people of due process and representing the potential for law enforcement abuse.
As long as DUE PROCESS is administered in a quick fashion (not months or even weeks) then I might not object. The likelihood of abuse by someone with an axe to grind cannot be discounted.
Those on the other side DO relish the idea, because they have some delusion that they'll be completely unaffected while the stupid rednecks are killed off.
Of course they won't (and shouldn't) be unaffected, and I'll leave it at that. Vindictiveness has a L-O-N-G memory. They are also big on someone else doing the bleeding and not them or theirs.
Where are you going to move.
Wish I had a time machine.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am not going any where at this point in time, the USA is still the greatest country around.
I have not studied it recently but just off the top of my head, Czech Republic has gun rights, in Panama I went to a department store and they were selling AR's and pistols, I own multiple guns in Israel.
If you got some money in 3rd world countries you can get almost anything you want.
Looks like Florida Governor Scott has a sweeping gun control bill headed to his desk, put forth by the Republican majority. It creates a lot of instant felons in Florida, too. Funny how I cannot find this on Foxnews.com anywhere, though.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/03/luis-valdes/breaking-fl-republicans-passed-gun-control-violated-civil-rights-floridians-age-21-made-floridians-felons/
Looks like Florida Governor Scott has a sweeping gun control bill headed to his desk, put forth by the Republican majority. It creates a lot of instant felons in Florida, too. Funny how I cannot find this on Foxnews.com anywhere, though.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/03/luis-valdes/breaking-fl-republicans-passed-gun-control-violated-civil-rights-floridians-age-21-made-floridians-felons/
So much for Florida. Another one bites the dust... It's absurd to see a Republican controlled state do this, but they have to strike while the iron is hot and pass the bills when they can. Just another cup of "Democrat-light."
Looks like Florida Governor Scott has a sweeping gun control bill headed to his desk, put forth by the Republican majority. It creates a lot of instant felons in Florida, too. Funny how I cannot find this on Foxnews.com anywhere, though.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/03/luis-valdes/breaking-fl-republicans-passed-gun-control-violated-civil-rights-floridians-age-21-made-floridians-felons/
This is why people don’t trust their elected officials. The vagueness of the “bumpstock” portion is ripe for legal creep.
“790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.—A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device.”
If neither party can be trusted, who are we supposed to vote for?
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 07:57
Why make the bump stock ban that broad? The language of “uses the recoil energy to facilitate activation of the trigger” leaves a lot less room. “Tool, accessory or device”? What retard came up with that. I actually want to know who wrote that portion.
I know people hate me here for it, but bump stocks were not worth the squeeze. Arm braces are going to cost us eventually.
We didn’t have bump stocks and no one was the wiser.
We bugged the shit out of the ATF and ‘got’.
They are taking them away and threatening the whole AR upgrade and accessory market. We’ll eventually have to submit every mod to the ATF for approval.
Great job there guys. Short bus wins!!! Short bus wins!!!!
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 07:58
So much for Florida. Another one bites the dust... It's absurd to see a Republican controlled state do this, but they have to strike while the iron is hot and pass the bills when they can. Just another cup of "Democrat-light."
Anyone who thought Florida was safe was lying to themselves. I'm honestly surprised it took this long.
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 08:01
Why make the bump stock ban that broad? The language of “uses the recoil energy to facilitate activation of the trigger” leaves a lot less room. “Tool, accessory or device”? What retard came up with that. I actually want to know who wrote that portion.
I know people hate me here for it, but bump stocks were not worth the squeeze. Arm braces are going to cost us eventually.
We didn’t have bump stocks and no one was the wiser.
We bugged the shit out of the ATF and ‘got’.
They are taking them away and threatening the whole AR upgrade and accessory market. We’ll eventually have to submit every mod to the ATF for approval.
Great job there guys. Short bus wins!!! Short bus wins!!!!
This is exactly why everyone told you that advocating for a ban on bump stocks was a bad idea. Give them an inch and they take a mile. The blame lies squarely on the NRA and every gun owner who tried to placate the left after Las Vegas.
Outlander Systems
03-08-18, 08:30
>Be named, "FromMyColdDeadHand"
>C-come on, g-guys, t-turn in your shit
Here's the deal-stick:
Pick a hill to die on, or a hill will be picked for you.
Why make the bump stock ban that broad? The language of “uses the recoil energy to facilitate activation of the trigger” leaves a lot less room. “Tool, accessory or device”? What retard came up with that. I actually want to know who wrote that portion.
I know people hate me here for it, but bump stocks were not worth the squeeze. Arm braces are going to cost us eventually.
We didn’t have bump stocks and no one was the wiser.
We bugged the shit out of the ATF and ‘got’.
They are taking them away and threatening the whole AR upgrade and accessory market. We’ll eventually have to submit every mod to the ATF for approval.
Great job there guys. Short bus wins!!! Short bus wins!!!!
Outlander Systems
03-08-18, 08:33
This.
I am not seeing how so-called, "Conservatives" are conserving a goddamned thing.
ALCON: If you think this "ends" with bump-stocks, your ass is in for a rude-awakening.
This is exactly why everyone told you that advocating for a ban on bump stocks was a bad idea. Give them an inch and they take a mile. The blame lies squarely on the NRA and every gun owner who tried to placate the left after Las Vegas.
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 08:41
>Be named, "FromMyColdDeadHand"
>C-come on, g-guys, t-turn in your shit
Here's the deal-stick:
Pick a hill to die on, or a hill will be picked for you.
The irony is almost too good to be true.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 09:16
This is exactly why everyone told you that advocating for a ban on bump stocks was a bad idea. Give them an inch and they take a mile. The blame lies squarely on the NRA and every gun owner who tried to placate the left after Las Vegas.
I didn’t advocate for a ban. A ban was going to happen. I advocated to get the most political advantage possible from it. Now it happens and we get no benefit from it.
How is it hard to see that we are in a worse position than we were before the bump-stock boogie?
The things were a modern version of a White Elephant.
We lost momentum on national reciprocity and suppressor reform. Things that actually matter.
What’s more is that by not driving the agenda, what did we get for it? Nuttin’.
>Be named, "FromMyColdDeadHand"
>C-come on, g-guys, t-turn in your shit
Here's the deal-stick:
Pick a hill to die on, or a hill will be picked for you.
Exactly. Bump stock are the plastic equivalent of that buddy that is an idiot that just shows up and always is starting crap at the bar with other drunks and drags you into it. He argues over nothing, but all of a sudden its your problem and you have to defend him for some reason. You didn’t invite him to the party, but he is pissing off the ladies, getting you a lot of negative attention and he never pays his part of the bill.
But sure. Bump stocks that blurred the line between real machine guns and MSRs that we have spent 20 years trying to get into people heads. The lynch pin between “assault weapons” and all the semis owned by people.
Whatever. I’m been making these points and people still don’t get. Analogies, facts, logic and reality.
Yeah, bumpstocks!
That make everyone happy?
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 09:27
I didn’t advocate for a ban. A ban was going to happen. I advocated to get the most political advantage possible from it. Now it happens and we get no benefit from it.
How is it hard to see that we are in a worse position than we were before the bump-stock boogie?
The things were a modern version of a White Elephant.
We lost momentum on national reciprocity and suppressor reform. Things that actually matter.
What’s more is that by not driving the agenda, what did we get for it? Nuttin’.
Exactly. Bump stock are the plastic equivalent of that buddy that is an idiot that just shows up and always is starting crap at the bar with other drunks and drags you into it. He argues over nothing, but all of a sudden its your problem and you have to defend him for some reason. You didn’t invite him to the party, but he is pissing off the ladies, getting you a lot of negative attention and he never pays his part of the bill.
But sure. Bump stocks that blurred the line between real machine guns and MSRs that we have spent 20 years trying to get into people heads. The lynch pin between “assault weapons” and all the semis owned by people.
Whatever. I’m been making these points and people still don’t get. Analogies, facts, logic and reality.
Yeah, bumpstocks!
That make everyone happy?
Except it didn't. Nothing happened on the federal level. Las Vegas killed any momentum pro-gun legislation had, and the Republicans had no interest in trying to get it back.
We all said it wouldn't stop with bump stocks, that they'd just use it as a jumping off point to ban all semiautomatic weapons.
You thought, and continue to think, that you know better. You are unequivocally wrong. Giving up incremental rights in an attempt to appease the left has been a losing strategy since 1934. They. Will. Never. Stop.
The NRA and people like yourself made bump stocks into a scapegoat. They had absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Florida, but that's where the attention was focused because they knew they could win.
Just stop. You're the only one who believes anything you're saying.
I didn’t advocate for a ban. A ban was going to happen. I advocated to get the most political advantage possible from it. Now it happens and we get no benefit from it.
How is it hard to see that we are in a worse position than we were before the bump-stock boogie?
The things were a modern version of a White Elephant.
We lost momentum on national reciprocity and suppressor reform. Things that actually matter.
What’s more is that by not driving the agenda, what did we get for it? Nuttin’.
Exactly. Bump stock are the plastic equivalent of that buddy that is an idiot that just shows up and always is starting crap at the bar with other drunks and drags you into it. He argues over nothing, but all of a sudden its your problem and you have to defend him for some reason. You didn’t invite him to the party, but he is pissing off the ladies, getting you a lot of negative attention and he never pays his part of the bill.
But sure. Bump stocks that blurred the line between real machine guns and MSRs that we have spent 20 years trying to get into people heads. The lynch pin between “assault weapons” and all the semis owned by people.
Whatever. I’m been making these points and people still don’t get. Analogies, facts, logic and reality.
Yeah, bumpstocks!
That make everyone happy?
Dude
What reality are you living in. Further how statist of you to tell people what they should do with their liberty and personal property.
Like you think rationalization plays a role in the minds of those who seek to continually fringe upon us the populace? Hell your not even talking rationally.
Get bent
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I cleaned up the name calling post and the rebuttal. No more.
Mr. Goodtimes
03-08-18, 10:04
This.
I am not seeing how so-called, "Conservatives" are conserving a goddamned thing.
ALCON: If you think this "ends" with bump-stocks, your ass is in for a rude-awakening.
Sounds a lot like what the world tried doing with Hitler. Placating and appeasement didn’t work there either. If you give a moose a muffin....
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Outlander Systems
03-08-18, 10:07
100%
It's like placating brigands, by giving them a steady supply of goods.
Anyone delusional enough to believe by dropping trouser and taking it on banning muh-bump stocks, is, again, going to be in for a surprise.
Show weakness, expect to be treated accordingly.
Except it didn't. Nothing happened on the federal level. Las Vegas killed any momentum pro-gun legislation had, and the Republicans had no interest in trying to get it back.
We all said it wouldn't stop with bump stocks, that they'd just use it as a jumping off point to ban all semiautomatic weapons.
You thought, and continue to think, that you know better. You are unequivocally wrong. Giving up incremental rights in an attempt to appease the left has been a losing strategy since 1934. They. Will. Never. Stop.
The NRA and people like yourself made bump stocks into a scapegoat. They had absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Florida, but that's where the attention was focused because they knew they could win.
Just stop. You're the only one who believes anything you're saying.
I've never owned a bump stock, never really wanted one. I was always trained (even before the Army) that shooting was about control and accuracy. The bump stock provides neither. I'm not the type to advocate banning anything, because it just leads to other things. I believe that if you want it, get it.
So what's next to ban? How about a loose grip on the weapon and your thumb? Perhaps they'll actually try to ban certain stances with a firearm? The following is courtesy of Bump Fire Academy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c
Doc Safari
03-08-18, 11:09
So what's next to ban? How about a loose grip on the weapon and your thumb? Perhaps they'll actually try to ban certain stances with a firearm?
Isn't it obvious? Once they get the bump stocks and people keep bump firing anyway, the gun grabbers will say, "See: this type of weapon is too readily able to fire automatically. We need to ban the whole weapon!"
RetroRevolver77
03-08-18, 11:21
I've never owned a bump stock, never really wanted one. I was always trained (even before the Army) that shooting was about control and accuracy. The bump stock provides neither. I'm not the type to advocate banning anything, because it just leads to other things. I believe that if you want it, get it.
So what's next to ban? How about a loose grip on the weapon and your thumb? Perhaps they'll actually try to ban certain stances with a firearm? The following is courtesy of Bump Fire Academy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c
OMG! FULL SEMI AUTOMATIC!!!!! PANIC!!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!
:lol:
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 12:00
Dude
What reality are you living in. Further how statist of you to tell people what they should do with their liberty and personal property.
Like you think rationalization plays a role in the minds of those who seek to continually fringe upon us the populace? Hell your not even talking rationally.
Get bent
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I speak the truth and and people have a hard time understanding and wrapping their heads around it. It happens to me all the time. They get pissy, they get mad and eventually the smart ones eventually acknowledge it.
Because of bump stocks you get crappy laws written by morons in haste and you leave sloppy laws like the one in FLA that in the hands of a state AG and a D-gov will come back to haunt us. Pivot on what OH58D posted and you have totally put at risk the understanding that people have on semi vs FA.
Plus, you now have all these different battles at the state levels. The NRA sucks at the state level. They can leverage at the FEd level, where you would have had a better chance of getting something worded the way we want- and then get the credit in the independents eyes for ‘doing something’.
I’m also tired of the personal slams. I’m not one of the whiny little bitches that went to the ATF begging for permission on the bump stocks. I remember the first time I saw the things and my first thought was “this isn’t going to end well”.
And you add one more nail in the coffin of controlling the House and Senate, who with DJT in place will send him gun bills and AWB bans monthly. The dems have lost the last of the gun guys they had and they have shifted WAY left, and they will put pressure by passing laws they know Trump will veto- or might even pass, who knows with him.
And if we lose the senate, even if RBH, or frankly anyone on SCOTUS dies, you won’t get a replacement in the last two years after what happened with Obama’s pick.
This is all about not screwing things up until we can get a favorable SCOTUS decision on ARs. If we don’t do that in the next three years, we will look at Australia as a good outcome.
For me, the Bump Stock is like a toy. You can have some fun with it, but eventually it gets pulled off and set on a shelf. Personally, I wouldn't want to put one on a weapon. But my position doesn't mean that someone else shouldn't have the ability to buy one. That's called Freedom and Choice.
For States like Florida now working to increase the buying age for a rifle to 21, that's a non-starter for me. Don't like it and I consider it a serious infringement. Regarding banning the bump stock, at face value it's a minor surrender for the gun owning public not having a toy to buy. But looking at it in the macro, it's actually kind of sinister and may set precedent for future banning incrementally. You give an inch, they take a mile over a period of time.
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 12:18
The cognitive dissonance is incredible.
Yes, if bump stocks didn't exist this wouldn't be an issue. But they do. Lamenting about the fact that you thought they were a bad idea is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
The NRA and people like you made it acceptable for politicians to legislate on the issue after Las Vegas. Had the response from our community been unified Republicans wouldn't be taking the risk. But here we are.
Bump stocks aren't the problem. Self righteous people who think their misguided opinions should be taken as gospel, are.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 12:34
Self righteous people who think their misguided opinions should be taken as gospel, are.
I whole heartedly agree.
Wait, I’m starting to think that you aren’t talking about yourself..... ;)
Is banning bump stocks going to stop mass shootings?
Is raising the age to purchase a long gun to 21 going to stop mass shootings?
Is banning scary looking black rifles going to stop mass shootings?
Is banning mags over 10 rounds going to stop mass shootings?
Is registration going to stop mass shootings?
Then why are we talking about these things?
Here is the hill I want to die on: Not one more concession. None. All the previous ones have done nothing. All the ones they are clamoring for now will do nothing. There is no reason why we should be banning anything or further infringing our rights. Their answer should be a simple "No." We should be working to restore our rights to what they are supposed to be, instead of debating which rights we want to concede next. There is no reason to even entertain their liberal stupidity. Why even justify it with logical, reasonable, sensible conversation. The want the whole enchilada and they will take it bite bite bite as they have been for decades since the 30's. We put a stop to it for the last 20 or so years. Why does anyone here want to take their foot off that brake now? Their answer is a simple "No." Just No.
Stand and fight. Not one more inch.
Looks like Illinois is starting the confiscation bandwagon.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/08/illinois-house-passes-bill-requiring-18-20-year-olds-hand-assault-weapons/
A bill requiring 18-20 year olds to hand over or transfer ownership of heretofore legally possessed “assault weapons” is gaining sponsors in the Illinois Senate after passing the House last month.
Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 14:17
Looks like Illinois is starting the confiscation bandwagon.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/08/illinois-house-passes-bill-requiring-18-20-year-olds-hand-assault-weapons/
To quote the joker- "And. Here. We. Go."
I'll be interested to see how this plays out, both in practice and legally.
Looks like Illinois is starting the confiscation bandwagon.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/08/illinois-house-passes-bill-requiring-18-20-year-olds-hand-assault-weapons/
Does Illinois have registration of said "assault-weapons" and therefore a list of the owners? I don't know what the gun laws are like in that State outside of Chicago. If there is no list of the owners, I'd just lay low. I sound more like a criminal all the time.
I think this is another major issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buS22r94_gU
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 14:48
Does Illinois have registration of said "assault-weapons" and therefore a list of the owners? I don't know what the gun laws are like in that State outside of Chicago. If there is no list of the owners, I'd just lay low. I sound more like a criminal all the time.
They do have a list of firearm owners. Don’t know if they have the guns listed.
Looks like Illinois is starting the confiscation bandwagon.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/08/illinois-house-passes-bill-requiring-18-20-year-olds-hand-assault-weapons/
Maybe the ‘kids’ in the military that are 18-21 should have their own walk-out...
They do have a list of firearm owners. Don’t know if they have the guns listed.
Same as NJ I would imagine. You need a Firearms Owner Purchase ID Card but rifles are only on a 4473. Only handguns get registered on paper with the State Police. Maybe they will go through all the 4473s?
They do have a list of firearm owners. Don’t know if they have the guns listed.
Maybe the ‘kids’ in the military that are 18-21 should have their own walk-out...
Well if they don't know what you have, don't do anything and just lay low and wait it out.
Reminds me of when I went to an AFEES station for my Army Physical in 1977 connected to my ROTC scholarship. I was told to not volunteer anything about any prior sports injuries, minor surgeries, etc. Don't Ask, don't tell.
I've never owned a bump stock, never really wanted one. I was always trained (even before the Army) that shooting was about control and accuracy. The bump stock provides neither. I'm not the type to advocate banning anything, because it just leads to other things. I believe that if you want it, get it.
So what's next to ban? How about a loose grip on the weapon and your thumb? Perhaps they'll actually try to ban certain stances with a firearm? The following is courtesy of Bump Fire Academy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c
BAN BELT LOOPS
SomeOtherGuy
03-08-18, 16:31
BAN BELT LOOPS
Belt loops are, after all, symbols of the white patriarchical systemic rape of all nurturing and feminine things under Gaia, and a miniature, ever-present reminder of rape and lynching by their wearers.
(I made this up, but it's not half as dumb as much of what passes for "intellectual discourse" in college campuses today.)
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 16:41
Belt loops are, after all, symbols of the white patriarchical systemic rape of all nurturing and feminine things under Gaia, and a miniature, ever-present reminder of rape and lynching by their wearers.
(I made this up, but it's not half as dumb as much of what passes for "intellectual discourse" in college campuses today.)
The tools of fat white men to hold devices that were used to abuse children and assault minorities and are now a micro-agressive way to show dominance...
jerrysimons
03-08-18, 18:01
Looks like Illinois is starting the confiscation bandwagon.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/08/illinois-house-passes-bill-requiring-18-20-year-olds-hand-assault-weapons/
This is a big deal.
Divide and conquer. Incrementalism at its best(worst). Normalize confiscation, then expand, but don’t worry we aren’t knocking on doors at this time, but you are still a criminal now.
Why make the bump stock ban that broad? The language of “uses the recoil energy to facilitate activation of the trigger” leaves a lot less room. “Tool, accessory or device”? What retard came up with that. I actually want to know who wrote that portion.
I know people hate me here for it, but bump stocks were not worth the squeeze. Arm braces are going to cost us eventually.
We didn’t have bump stocks and no one was the wiser.
We bugged the shit out of the ATF and ‘got’.
They are taking them away and threatening the whole AR upgrade and accessory market. We’ll eventually have to submit every mod to the ATF for approval.
Great job there guys. Short bus wins!!! Short bus wins!!!!
Yeah, 'cause at this point that SBR you have registered out the wazoo and can't deny you have is such a better option. This is NOT a slam on folks who SBR stuff but instead just a meek defense of braces. Don't care if it is popular or not.
The problem with most Republicans is think they have to cater to Facebook soccer moms and Baby Boomer hippies just so they can get reelected. Public opinion and who is loudest about "muh babies" are the only things that matter.
Bump stocks and arm braces aren't the enemy.
Diamondback
03-08-18, 19:14
Yeah, 'cause at this point that SBR you have registered out the wazoo and can't deny you have is such a better option. This is NOT a slam on folks who SBR stuff but instead just a meek defense of braces. Don't care if it is popular or not.
This. You can legally build a "ghost" pistol from an EPL with *no* paperwork. Try that with an SBR, and you have a long, fun-filled future ahead of your ass being Bubba's cocksocket at Club Fed... assuming ATF doesn't stomp on your kittens, whack your kids and burn your house down with your whole family inside first.
MountainRaven
03-08-18, 19:34
This. You can legally build a "ghost" pistol from an EPL with *no* paperwork. Try that with an SBR, and you have a long, fun-filled future ahead of your ass being Bubba's cocksocket at Club Fed... assuming ATF doesn't stomp on your kittens, whack your kids and burn your house down with your whole family inside first.
Only if you get caught.
Seriously. How many people do you see at gun shows with those Roni pistol stock things? How many of the people with them do you think bothered to register their appropriate pistol as an SBR? How many people do you think just buy pistol uppers off the web or at their local gun store to put on their rifle lowers without knowing or caring what, "NFA rules apply," means? If, you know, they're even told that much. How many guys do you think have old duck guns that they re-tasked as defense guns and just took a saw to the barrel of without knowing or caring what the legal barrel length is?
Remember when people were standing guard outside their local recruiters' offices? The picture of the one kid with the 7" barreled AR pistol with a VFG on it? You think the ATF ever knocked on his door? What about Bobby Onco, with his more likely than not illegal AK (most likely brought back illegally in a duffle bag from Vietnam and I doubt he registered it under the NFA until maybe one of the post-Vietnam machine gun registration amnesties)?
Banning braces won't keep people from making (knowingly or not) unregistered SBRs just as the ATF's ruling that shouldering a pistol brace is making a gun an SBR didn't keep people from shouldering their braces anyway. And banning braces won't make up for the ATF's total lack of desire and ability to go after everyone with an unregistered SBR. And I tend to suspect that the ATF knows this.
The tools of fat white men to hold devices that were used to abuse children and assault minorities and are now a micro-agressive way to show dominance...
You guys are good at this. I'm guilted.
Only if you get caught.
Seriously. How many people do you see at gun shows with those Roni pistol stock things? How many of the people with them do you think bothered to register their appropriate pistol as an SBR? How many people do you think just buy pistol uppers off the web or at their local gun store to put on their rifle lowers without knowing or caring what, "NFA rules apply," means? If, you know, they're even told that much. How many guys do you think have old duck guns that they re-tasked as defense guns and just took a saw to the barrel of without knowing or caring what the legal barrel length is?
Remember when people were standing guard outside their local recruiters' offices? The picture of the one kid with the 7" barreled AR pistol with a VFG on it? You think the ATF ever knocked on his door? What about Bobby Onco, with his more likely than not illegal AK (most likely brought back illegally in a duffle bag from Vietnam and I doubt he registered it under the NFA until maybe one of the post-Vietnam machine gun registration amnesties)?
Banning braces won't keep people from making (knowingly or not) unregistered SBRs just as the ATF's ruling that shouldering a pistol brace is making a gun an SBR didn't keep people from shouldering their braces anyway. And banning braces won't make up for the ATF's total lack of desire and ability to go after everyone with an unregistered SBR. And I tend to suspect that the ATF knows this.
This
You know the only folks who actually give a crap about this nonsense are fudds on online gun forums who get off on diming folks out over 922r compliance BS and the like. Like usual gun owners are our own worse enemies.
Nobody cares....
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Dist. Expert 26
03-08-18, 20:26
This
You know the only folks who actually give a crap about this nonsense are fudds on online gun forums who get off on diming folks out over 922r compliance BS and the like. Like usual gun owners are our own worse enemies.
Nobody cares....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Truth.
Those are the same people that would call the SS on their Jewish neighbors because "it's the right thing to do".
Belt loops are, after all, symbols of the white patriarchical systemic rape of all nurturing and feminine things under Gaia, and a miniature, ever-present reminder of rape and lynching by their wearers.
(I made this up, but it's not half as dumb as much of what passes for "intellectual discourse" in college campuses today.)
need like button :)
as good as that
I did not make this up :) hahahahah
read a FB post today saying
the 2nd was about controlling slaves so whites could kill blacks and shut up if you disagree cause you are a idiot and do not know history if you did not know this was the real reason but whites tried to say it was for other reasons so they could keep killing blacks like they are today
What if I told you there is such a thing as reloading? What if I told you I have been to countries where ammo was stolen as well as bought on sold illegally through corruption?
The key is and has always has been is the ammo. Make it real hard to get ( hoops to jump through/regulation and high price/ tax like on cigarettes and can only buy it in small quantity, etc ) which for most hard core keepers means at some point, your guns become expensive boat anchors in your closet. You won a battle but lost the war. The future of firearms in this country lies with who can capture the minds/believing of the majority of our young people. And as most people I hope realize , it might at some point start with the AR 15 but it most definitely will not end there. We either hang together likeminded or we hang seperately. The biggest threat to our country is the liberal and anti God media and weak minded American sheeple that easily knuckle under and think the government is their God and will take care of them. At some point in the future of this country, they will have a rude awakening in more ways than one.
You're dreaming. And once you are woke, let me tell you some stories about these places called Iraq and Afghanistan.
Guys talking about civil war and revolution need a dose of reality. If the gov comes knocking and you decide to fight, you will die. Your family will die, too. Your AR-15 won’t mean shit when someone drives a MRAP through your front door. Cops have AR-15’s, also. And they will come in groups. I’m sure the North Hollywood bank robbers thought they could win.
And if a shooting war actually breaks out, and even a portion of the Military’s capability is unleashed, all the training in the world goes up in smoke under a Pred. The Military has been practicing asymmetric warfare and dealing with resistant individuals for 17 freaking years. Remember that our Founding Fathers were armed with similar weapons as their enemies. We are not.
If you think the Military and LEOs will defect instead of confiscating, you are incorrect. Most of them will “follow orders”. We’ve seen this play out everywhere from Louisiana to Germany. Even many guys saying they wouldn’t do it. Besides, cops aren’t pro-2a. SOME cops are pro-2a. Maybe even many cops. But far, far from all. We are biased because of the people we hang out with.
And underground production of ammo like moonshine? You guys know our hobby is loud, right? Sure, we can keep it quiet and covert, but it certainly won’t be as fun as it is now.
I feel the most likely scenario is the one a previous poster mentioned where they don’t try to confiscate unless you get caught, like in a fire or traffic stop. That one is pretty plausible. Our best bet against that is prevention.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I just laugh a little when people do all the saber rattling. I’m not saying don’t resist. Just be realistic in your expectations of the outcome. Maybe send your wife and kids out of town.
Must not have looked hard.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/03/09/florida-governor-says-hell-talk-with-parkland-families-before-deciding-on-gun-bill.html
Looks like Florida Governor Scott has a sweeping gun control bill headed to his desk, put forth by the Republican majority. It creates a lot of instant felons in Florida, too. Funny how I cannot find this on Foxnews.com anywhere, though.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/03/luis-valdes/breaking-fl-republicans-passed-gun-control-violated-civil-rights-floridians-age-21-made-floridians-felons/
I think this is another major issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buS22r94_gU
Why isn't this guy running things at the NRA or at least on the BoD?
It's way past time to get the collectors and fudds off the board!
Dist. Expert 26
03-09-18, 08:41
Why isn't this guy running things at the NRA or at least on the BoD?
It's way past time to get the collectors and fudds off the board!
Probably because he would insist on actually trying to get our rights back rather than constantly being on the defensive.
Well, it's high time that the NRA focused on winning instead of not losing the game by as many points.
The tiny state of Delaware (where I currently reside) is joining it's neighbors and jumping on the PASS ANYTHING band wagon.
https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/08/delaware-house-passes-bump-stock-ban-harsher-penalty-straw-purchases/406420002/
"I think we all understand the issue and how bad it is, and we all want to do something about it," House Speaker Pete Schwartzkopf said after the votes, referring to recent mass shootings that have sparked a national debate over gun control.
House Bill 300 would make buying, selling or possessing bump stocks or trigger cranks a felony punishable by up to five years in prison – the same as other "destructive weapons" such as bombs, silencers and sawed-off shotguns.
This is just the first of many more anti-2a bills set to get voted on this year, including a ban on future sales of all "assault weapons" and raising the legal age to buy any type of firearm to 21
https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/01/delaware-bill-would-block-teens-buying-rifles-shotguns/384585002/
Democratic legislators in Delaware are looking to block teens from buying rifles, shotguns and other weapons, the latest in a series of gun control bills now working their way through the General Assembly.
Gov. John Carney last week called on state legislators to help him craft legislation that would ban the sale of "assault-style rifles" in Delaware. That bill is expected to be introduced in the coming weeks.
Keep in mind Delaware is home to Wilmington, DE which recently made a top ten list of most dangerous small cities. Instead of focusing on the rampant problem of gang violence in that city, our lofty legislators have deemed going after the law abiding citizens of the state much more important. For the kids, of course.
Probably because he would insist on actually trying to get our rights back rather than constantly being on the defensive.
Colion is a beast. If he went out for the board, he'd get voted in.
Dist. Expert 26
03-09-18, 10:13
Colion is a beast. If he went out for the board, he'd get voted in.
I'd like to see that happen. I'm sure there's a reason he hasn't though, the thought has to have crossed his mind.
Well, it's high time that the NRA focused on winning instead of not losing the game by as many points.
They aren't going to do that for the same reason there will never be a cure for cancer...There's no money in winning.
Doc Safari
03-09-18, 10:48
They aren't going to do that for the same reason there will never be a cure for cancer...There's no money in winning.
It's true. And to a certain extent both the gun grabbers and the pro-2A people want to keep the issue alive so that the money keeps flowing in.
That is the ONE counter-argument to the belief in the anti-gunners' desire for gun confiscation that I actually accept. If they ever succeed in "curing" the disease, so to speak, then the money stops and they're all out of a job. Where that argument breaks down is that there are people genuinely dedicated to disarmament because of their overall leftist agenda. The key is somehow discovering whether the money grabbers are more numerous and/or more powerful than the gun grabbers.
My take is that for now the money grabbers rule; the MSM tries to prop up the idealists who want complete gun bans, but the dirty little secret is that the reason no new laws are passed is because the leftists don't want them to be any more than the pro-gun people.
The worry is that the Democrat party is becoming more and more extreme left-wing, and at some point the dedicated gun grabbers will finally wrench control of the party from the ones who just want the money to keep flowing.
There is plenty of money to be made in winning.
The NRA could go back to its roots of actually promoting marksmanship and training.
They went off the rails when they supported the National Firearms Act of 1934 and have never gotten back on track.
Come to think of it, maybe they are the enemy.
Doc Safari
03-09-18, 11:25
There is plenty of money to be made in winning.
The NRA could go back to its roots of actually promoting marksmanship and training.
They went off the rails when they supported the National Firearms Act of 1934 and have never gotten back on track.
Come to think of it, maybe they are the enemy.
To the extent that fear is what brings the bucks in, yes, they are the enemy. Wayne LaPierre can't buy those three-grand duck guns promoting marksmanship. Get real. People loosen their wallets when their buttholes tighten (did I just type that?).
Frenchy needs another duck gun like I need another caliber to reload for.
Think of the money that could be made if the NRA owned and operated public ranges and actively promoted the shooting sports. All of the shooting sports.
I realize it is currently a non profit but it could separate its status and have a the Foundation be the non profit.
MountainRaven
03-09-18, 12:41
To the extent that fear is what brings the bucks in, yes, they are the enemy. Wayne LaPierre can't buy those three-grand duck guns promoting marksmanship. Get real. People loosen their wallets when their buttholes tighten (did I just type that?).
If he can't afford three-grand duck guns promoting gun safety, he's doing something wrong.
Now... if he can't afford eighty-grand duck guns promoting gun safety, I'd believe it.
Considering that in the realm of shotguns, with serious shotgun shooters, three-grand is pretty pedestrian, I'd bet it's the eighty-grand bespoke Italian and English best doubles doing him in, and not the three-grand Japanese and Italian mass produced guns.
And more than that, how do you afford a dozen McMansions on a gun safety organization's president's salary? Now, when you're a lobbying group, different story.
Averageman
03-09-18, 12:51
This is going to come down to the SCOTUS doing the right thing.
We need two or more picks in the next three years.
To the extent that fear is what brings the bucks in, yes, they are the enemy. Wayne LaPierre can't buy those three-grand duck guns promoting marksmanship. Get real. People loosen their wallets when their buttholes tighten (did I just type that?).
Thank you for my hard laugh of the day. So true and the visual was very pleasing.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-18, 13:26
This is going to come down to the SCOTUS doing the right thing.
We need two or more picks in the next three years.
EXACTLY. This is all just foreplay. If Kennedy retires and we get a new more Libertarian judge in there our odds are really good. If RBH finally finishes her turn to dust, AND WE CAN GET SOMEONE SEATED, then we are in much better shape.
I think by no means that it will all be over. Look how they fought Heller and McDonald. It will be like Roe V Wade. Little snipes and hurdles, but with the fundamental right entact.
Like I said. ATF needs to official state that AR15s are in common usage. That is the key to getting Kennedy and giving cover.
Then, at the very worst you end up with an NFA system- and no chance of confiscation, outside of a full repeal of the 2A. Frankly, at that point you can probably re-open the MG registry.
Lose the Senate this fall, and any hope of replacing RBH are out the window.
Diamondback
03-09-18, 13:30
This is going to come down to the SCOTUS doing the right thing.
We need two or more picks in the next three years.
We need Kennedy to retire as a start. Replace the wildcard with someone more reliable.
Averageman
03-09-18, 13:58
We need Kennedy to retire as a start. Replace the wildcard with someone more reliable.
My understanding is that he's only got a month or two before he leaves.
My concern is that the deep state being still intact nears some influence on whomever gets the nod.
I seem to remember a rather questionable decision being made concerning Obama-care that in light of certain recent events makes me question the change of attitude in that Justice.
Relevant to the conversation, if it has not been posted so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RKmQWpBrA&t=0s
For those who don't watch, the short of it, is we need to get up off your ass.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 11:36
And, just like that, tens of thousands of felons were created.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-department-files-regulation-ban-bump-stocks-143159866.html
And, just like that, tens of thousands of felons were created.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-department-files-regulation-ban-bump-stocks-143159866.html
Big shout out to turncoat cucks that got us here
Y’all the real MVPs
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Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:06
Big shout out to turncoat cucks that got us here
Y’all the real MVPs
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But...but...this will help us somehow...muh 4d chess...
Outlander Systems
03-10-18, 12:18
They're t-totally gonna s-stop now, r-right, g-guys?
Big shout out to turncoat cucks that got us here
Y’all the real MVPs
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:21
My favorite part- "The move does not require congressional approval, allowing the administration to side-step what could have been insurmountable pressure from pro-gun groups such as the National Rifle Association that have worked to erode changes in firearm laws in the wake of mass shootings in Florida and Nevada."
Land of the free!!! Representative government!!!
Outlander Systems
03-10-18, 12:22
I feel so free right now.
My favorite part- "The move does not require congressional approval, allowing the administration to side-step what could have been insurmountable pressure from pro-gun groups such as the National Rifle Association that have worked to erode changes in firearm laws in the wake of mass shootings in Florida and Nevada."
Land of the free!!! Representative government!!!
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:26
I feel so free right now.
I'm going to get a MAGA tattoo this evening. Greatest. President. Ever.
wildcard600
03-10-18, 12:30
how do they plan to re-interpret what constitutes a "machine gun" for this DOJ stunt to work ?
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:32
how do they plan to re-interpret what constitutes a "machine gun" for this DOJ stunt to work ?
I guess we'll find out. The best part? There's not a f**king thing we can do about it. Yay for freedom!
Outlander Systems
03-10-18, 12:38
Taking bets now.
Magazines, 80% lowers, or AR15s next?
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:40
Taking bets now.
Magazines, 80% lowers, or AR15s next?
Definitely 80% lowers. After that, magazines.
I guess we'll find out. The best part? There's not a f**king thing we can do about it. Yay for freedom!
Is that really true though? Enough pressure was placed on the ATF to stop the M855 ban, no?
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 12:48
Is that really true though? Enough pressure was placed on the ATF to stop the M855 ban, no?
As my grandmother used to say, hope in one hand, s**t in the other. See which fills up faster.
Is that really true though? Enough pressure was placed on the ATF to stop the M855 ban, no?
There a point there. We, as a culture, need to get up off our asses and start working to actually secure tgem. I'm in the process of clubbing the collective fudds in my AO over the head and getting them moving. If we don't fight we are promised to lose.
wildcard600
03-10-18, 12:55
Is that really true though? Enough pressure was placed on the ATF to stop the M855 ban, no?
unless some serious mental gymnastics are used, bump stocks aren't going to pass the basic smell test of the USC definition of a machinegun. It will probably get kicked back and then congress with have to do something about it, if they so choose.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 13:01
unless some serious mental gymnastics are used, bump stocks aren't going to pass the basic smell test of the USC definition of a machinegun. It will probably get kicked back and then congress with have to do something about it, if they so choose.
Unless they change the definition.
unless some serious mental gymnastics are used, bump stocks aren't going to pass the basic smell test of the USC definition of a machinegun. It will probably get kicked back and then congress with have to do something about it, if they so choose.
I dunno... drilling a 0.125" hole makes an AR a machine gun...
wildcard600
03-10-18, 13:08
Unless they change the definition.
DOJ can't unilaterally change the definition. That would require an act of congress. Best chance for the DOJ is for the ATF to look at bump stocks again and somehow say "nevermind, these aren't legal" al la Atkins accelerator with spring and come up with a reason for doing so.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 13:12
DOJ can't unilaterally change the definition. That would require an act of congress. Best chance for the DOJ is for the ATF to look at bump stocks again and somehow say "nevermind, these aren't legal" al la Atkins accelerator with spring and come up with a reason for doing so.
That's optimistic.
Did you read the article? They're doing this without the ATF.
wildcard600
03-10-18, 13:18
That's optimistic.
Did you read the article? They're doing this without the ATF.
What governmental agency is going to be used to enforce this "law" then ?
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 13:20
What governmental agency is going to be used to enforce this "law" then ?
Oh they'll use the ATF to enforce it. But the ATF isn't making decisions on this one.
wildcard600
03-10-18, 13:22
Oh they'll use the ATF to enforce it. But the ATF isn't making decisions on this one.
I don't believe thats how things work. If it were that easy Obama could have just told the DOJ to "ban guns" and Eric Holder would have spun out an edict 20 minutes later and all firearms would be illegal.
Oh they'll use the ATF to enforce it. But the ATF isn't making decisions on this one.
What the hell is the ATF enforcing now? You have assholes making illegal SBRs on camera and **** all is happening there.
Most pro gun president in history.
Gets more gun control put in place in less than 18 months than Obama did in 8 years.
skywalkrNCSU
03-10-18, 13:35
Most pro gun president in history.
Gets more gun control put in place in less than 18 months than Obama did in 8 years.
Trump is just playing 8 dimensional candy land while everyone else is playing checkers. He has those liberals right where he wants em.
Trump is just playing 8 dimensional candy land while everyone else is playing checkers. He has those liberals right where he wants em.
I still have people on my FB page claiming this is all some sort of master plan he has to overthrow all gun control and bring us into a new golden age of gun ownership. Cognitive Dissonance at its finest.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 13:41
Trump is just playing 8 dimensional candy land while everyone else is playing checkers. He has those liberals right where he wants em.
It's at least 64 dimensional now.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 13:41
I don't believe thats how things work. If it were that easy Obama could have just told the DOJ to "ban guns" and Eric Holder would have spun out an edict 20 minutes later and all firearms would be illegal.
Whether it holds up in court remains to be seen. But it's happening.
RetroRevolver77
03-10-18, 13:43
Congressional gun control legislation update.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R_LuBwf76w
Representative Massie discusses and upcoming bill this week that Congress will be voting on.
Most pro gun president in history.
Gets more gun control put in place in less than 18 months than Obama did in 8 years.
Not to absolve him of saying dumb shit about 2A but what exactly has he DONE that is anti-gun? Seems like the only things that have happened are on a state level. This bump-stock thing is so far the only federal regulation that is pending. I'm not saying the ban won't happen, but he hasn't signed any anti gun laws that I am aware of.
He hasn't even been POTUS for 18 months?
As someone said earlier; this is why we are loosing. We just bicker among ourselves while the left steam rolls us.
Dist. Expert 26
03-10-18, 14:09
Not to absolve him of saying dumb shit about 2A but what exactly has he DONE that is anti-gun? Seems like the only things that have happened are on a state level. This bump-stock thing is so far the only federal regulation that is pending. I'm not saying the ban won't happen, but he hasn't signed any anti gun laws that I am aware of.
He hasn't even been POTUS for 18 months?
As someone said earlier; this is why we are loosing. We just bicker among ourselves while the left steam rolls us.
Thing is this isn't the left, this is the party most of us voted for creating gun control without a means for recourse. The only thing we can do to fight this is comment on it, for all the good that does, and fight it in court once it goes through.
Not to absolve him of saying dumb shit about 2A but what exactly has he DONE that is anti-gun? Seems like the only things that have happened are on a state level. This bump-stock thing is so far the only federal regulation that is pending. I'm not saying the ban won't happen, but he hasn't signed any anti gun laws that I am aware of.
He hasn't even been POTUS for 18 months?
As someone said earlier; this is why we are loosing. We just bicker among ourselves while the left steam rolls us.
What is he doing? He instigated this remember. He told them to look into doing this.
And you are right on the time frame. I was thinking from election day not inauguration.
You know they're not going to stop at "upgraded NICS", and waiting periods, right? These will not prevent shootings, as guns can be bought illegally, stolen from Parents, or anybody else. It is feel good BS. I know every knows that, I'm just pissed.
What is he doing? He instigated this remember. He told them to look into doing this.
And you are right on the time frame. I was thinking from election day not inauguration.
He instigated the bump stock thing, yes, but as others have said, it's not a done deal. That's the "said dumb things part"
We need to keep pressure on the politicians that care.
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