View Full Version : Pistol range week at a large agency's academy
I've got little notes about the range
I digress. The people who brought their own all had glocks. 19's and 17's. Only one gen 3, the rest were gen 4's and gen 5's.
Only a few of us had something that wasn't a glock.
We fired about 800 rounds each throughout the past 2 weeks. Some interesting things of note within our sample size.
One of my mags just fell apart on a day where we were dropping mags on concrete all day. The base plate must have came loose without me realizing it. When I went to eject the magazine, the base plate, a plastic retainer and the spring fell out but the actual magazine tube and follower stayed in the gun. That was strange. Reassembled it and never had an issue again.
The guy with the 226 had a similar problem where his magazine ejected and the detent that held the base plate in sheared off. Sig branded mags too. So the baseplate would come off fairly easily.
The training rounds (Orange tip, silver case) were constantly getting stuck in the gen 5 glocks. The only way they wouldn't get stuck is if the rounds had no dents or dings on them at all.
Type 3 malfunctions were interesting. An instructor showed us the "fastest" way he's found to clear them. His disclaimer was that it doesn't work with every gun, so you'd have to try and see what happened. Tap rack first obviously, but then you'll see what kind of malf it is. Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.
This worked with the VP9 every time. The XD would lose the chambered round but not the first round in the magazine. Some people had to lock the slide to the rear first before stripping the mag, others did not.
The sig would lose at least 2, sometimes 3 rounds when attempting this. He'd lose the chambered round and the first two in the magazine because of the way the sig seats the first round.
, I used the ALS nub from OTdefense. I cannot speak highly enough about it. First day was a ton of holster draws from a safariland ALS 6xxx series. My thumb was sick of hitting that stupid slim ALS. Then I put the nub on, world's difference. Highly recommended. I also used a esstac 2" belt with esstac kywi pistol pouches.
Anyway, I just thought I'd share this tidbit. Someone had 3 failures with their glock today, he said light primer strikes. I didn't see the primers, so I cannot confirm.
VP9 was excellent.
Thanks for the report.
Do you think the Gen 5 Glocks had issues with the dinged up training rounds due to tight chamber tolerances?
Thanks for the report.
Do you think the Gen 5 Glocks had issues with the dinged up training rounds due to tight chamber tolerances?
That's what the determination was.
dwhitehorne
03-06-18, 17:23
We are just transitioning away from HK P2000's at work. The mags with rubber coated base plates would shift all the time dropping them on the concrete range floor. It is a common thing for us. The VP mag base is a little different but the retainer is the same.
We run the same dummy rounds. Some tight chambers don't like the nickle cases but those dummy rounds last so much longer than the all plastic orange versions.
Interesting take on remedial action. Some malfunctions can be cleared in different ways. I think it is easier to just drill in Rip/Rack/Reload. The biggest immediate action issue I see is people tap rack more than once and turn simple malfunction into a jammed up double fed disaster. David
Type 3 malfunctions were interesting. An instructor showed us the "fastest" way he's found to clear them. His disclaimer was that it doesn't work with every gun, so you'd have to try and see what happened. Tap rack first obviously, but then you'll see what kind of malf it is. Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.
So you have an instructor at a basic police academy teaching a methodology for failure to extracts that that doesn't work with every gun, a methodology that (your words) should put you back in the fight.
It may just me, I'm kind of a fud, but we always taught techniques, common to all, that WOULD put you back in the fight absent a broken extractor or case head separation.
It was like herding cats to get all the staff instructors to agree on the techniques we taught, but ultimately every basic was taught the same methodology.
An effective program can't have instructors freelancing, teaching their own tactics/techniques to one group, while another instructor teaches different techniques to a different group.
That, my friends, is a recipe for disaster.
JMO
ramairthree
03-06-18, 23:55
Good feedback.
Thank you.
I am used to a higher range count over a shorter period of time,
And usually not hard surface mags drops.
Even then, the plastic baseplates that beretta replaces the metal ones with were prone to not holding up.
Coal Dragger
03-07-18, 03:52
Thanks for the writeup.
Out of curiosity, as a guy who runs a VP9, what specifically made the the VP9 excellent? Aside from an apparent advantage in clearing type 3 malfunctions using the methods the instructor was teaching?
So you have an instructor at a basic police academy teaching a methodology for failure to extracts that that doesn't work with every gun, a methodology that (your words) should put you back in the fight.
It may just me, I'm kind of a fud, but we always taught techniques, common to all, that WOULD put you back in the fight absent a broken extractor or case head separation.
It was like herding cats to get all the staff instructors to agree on the techniques we taught, but ultimately every basic was taught the same methodology.
An effective program can't have instructors freelancing, teaching their own tactics/techniques to one group, while another instructor teaches different techniques to a different group.
That, my friends, is a recipe for disaster.
JMO
I should have clarified. They taught the traditional tap rack, put the slide to the rear, rip the magazine, rack rack rack, insert new magazine. Then they showed us the shorter way and prefaced it by saying that this is not a guarantee and we will have to try for ourselves. Which we did, each of these malf drills are ran both dry and during live fire. Plenty of times.
And I agree with you, there were plenty of things that all the instructors had to confer with each other to teach.
Thanks for the writeup.
Out of curiosity, as a guy who runs a VP9, what specifically made the the VP9 excellent? Aside from an apparent advantage in clearing type 3 malfunctions using the methods the instructor was teaching?
I like my vp9 quite a bit because I have sausage fingers. So it's really easy for me to use the paddle release. The type 3 malfunction clearing isn't something I'd even consider to bring up as a reason why I prefer the vp9 to other handguns.
Coal Dragger
03-07-18, 12:31
Didn’t realize you had run your VP9 in this class. Thanks.
Thanks for posting.
How common is dropping mags on concrete during "standard" training?
Seems to me it will lead to malfunctions during later training or during an actual defense/duty encounter.
Although if the guns were for training only and would never see duty use that's another matter.
Anyway, official and non-official live-fire training/courses I've taken always involved a soft surface. (Mudd, grass, clay, sand, or dirt)
I have been traveling this week and spoke to the owner of a small gun shop near St. Louis this morning. He showed me a Gen 5 Glock 17 he had for sale and cautioned against running factory 147g FMJ ammunition through it without first doing some testing. He told me a shooter had difficulty pulling the slide to the rear to show clear after a stage at a pistol match and the projectile was pulled from the case. He told me the 147g factory cartridges were tried in other Gen 5 Glock 17s and some had the same issue. It was concluded the "chamber was cut tight." The consensus among competitors was to shoot ammunition with projectiles 135g and lighter.
It sounds like the leade was cut shorter on this particular Gen 5 Glock 17 than the leade on Gen 4s are normally cut. I view that as an advantage when loading accurate cartridges used in competition. I am going to pick up a Gen 5 Glock 17 before Glock makes any changes.
Thanks for posting.
How common is dropping mags on concrete during "standard" training?
Seems to me it will lead to malfunctions during later training or during an actual defense/duty encounter.
Although if the guns were for training only and would never see duty use that's another matter.
Anyway, official and non-official live-fire training/courses I've taken always involved a soft surface. (Mudd, grass, clay, sand, or dirt)
I prefer a level surface for working with multiple students. Our maximum load was 16 students per relay and we shot regardless of temperature or snowfall. Concrete has disadvantages - magazines, and pre-cancerous lesions for the instructors who are on the surface all day (LOL) but the safety advantages when teaching any type of movement drills to the masses makes it worthwhile.
Plus, when it snows concrete clears much easier and with less mess than a grass surface. The maintenance guys were always effing up the grass surface on out 'tactical range' when they tried to clear it so we could shoot metal and movers, not their fault, just the nature of the beast.
I found Glock mags to be the most robust mags for use on concrete surfaces. We always had mags exploding when dropped onto the concrete, generally metal mags, with plastic floor plates. Beretta used a pot metal floor plate for a while that didn't hold up very well.
During the first couple days during stand in one place shooting drills, officers could put pieces of carpet (show room samples) where their mags were likely to land.
I get your concern with the rough treatment on concrete maybe causing problems with mags down the road, that is why we recommended training mags.
Thanks for posting.
How common is dropping mags on concrete during "standard" training?
Seems to me it will lead to malfunctions during later training or during an actual defense/duty encounter.
Although if the guns were for training only and would never see duty use that's another matter.
Anyway, official and non-official live-fire training/courses I've taken always involved a soft surface. (Mudd, grass, clay, sand, or dirt)
When I was involved in training substantial numbers of sworn personnel, we ran students through 40 hour pistol courses on concrete and gravel surfaces. Round counts were well over 1,000 for each student. Magazines were dropped on hard surfaces several times per hour. Magazines with metal bottoms and Glock magazines had no issues with breakages. The magazines looked skinned up a bit at the end of the week, but they still functioned.
When I was involved in training substantial numbers of sworn personnel, we ran students through 40 hour pistol courses on concrete and gravel surfaces. Round counts were well over 1,000 for each student. Magazines were dropped on hard surfaces several times per hour. Magazines with metal bottoms and Glock magazines had no issues with breakages. The magazines looked skinned up a bit at the end of the week, but they still functioned.
Oh yeah they still function for sure.
I have 5 VP9 mags and i don't classify them as "training mags" vs "duty mags."
If the thought to classify them came through my mind, i wouldn't be using a VP9.
Magazines are a critical part of a gun's reliability and inexpensive. Vet a batch of magazines for carry, and dedicate a second for practice and abuse. It may not be a necessity, but it's a good idea.
Magazines are a critical part of a gun's reliability and inexpensive. Vet a batch of magazines for carry, and dedicate a second for practice and abuse. It may not be a necessity, but it's a good idea.
Well gents, perhaps I'll number them. I actually found another mag. So now I have two that have been dropped several times and four good ones. Thanks for the insight
Coal Dragger
03-10-18, 13:23
Fortunately for you HK pistol mags tend to be pretty robust.
How full are the mags that failed?
I've only ever dropped mostly or less often fully expended mags when changing.
How full are the mags that failed?
I've only ever dropped mostly or less often fully expended mags when changing.
Both of those mag issues happened with empty magazines.
Magazines are a critical part of a gun's reliability and inexpensive. Vet a batch of magazines for carry, and dedicate a second for practice and abuse. It may not be a necessity, but it's a good idea.
This is a very good point. Our agency had a large supply of extra magazine plates and springs. Magazines were frequently checked and repaired or replaced at the first hint of being problematic.
No experience with Gen 5 Glocks but my agency issues Gen 4s and we discontinued use of metal cased dummy rounds due to above mentioned issues... for malf drills we run plastic dummy rounds exclusively with no such problems. Our Recruit training is 80 hours all done on a concrete deck, mix of Glocks and Sigs (neighboring agency) and IME no issues with mags exploding etc.
Crazy, we thought about purchasing gen5 but we exclusively use the metal cased, orange plastic tip, dummy rounds. They completely lock up the gen5 pistol so we went with gen4. Haven’t had any issue with the gen4 locking up.
Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.
Doesn't this method prevent loose rounds from the malfunction from falling out though the magwell during clearing?
One of my mags just fell apart on a day where we were dropping mags on concrete all day. The base plate must have came loose without me realizing it. When I went to eject the magazine, the base plate, a plastic retainer and the spring fell out but the actual magazine tube and follower stayed in the gun. That was strange. Reassembled it and never had an issue again.
The guy with the 226 had a similar problem where his magazine ejected and the detent that held the base plate in sheared off. Sig branded mags too. So the baseplate would come off fairly easily.
For this and other reasons, I'm an advocate of having both dedicated training and duty mags. Especially if it's a metal mag.
The training rounds (Orange tip, silver case) were constantly getting stuck in the gen 5 glocks. The only way they wouldn't get stuck is if the rounds had no dents or dings on them at all.
Known issue with the ST Action Pros. Even if they are in well-used condition, holding the gun upright in the workspace will allow the shooter to run the slide with regular effort. Tighter tolerances of the gen5's GMB have nothing to do with it. (It's predictable enough that I use this combo to ID shooters that are cheating on their stoppage clearance drills.)
Type 3 malfunctions were interesting. An instructor showed us the "fastest" way he's found to clear them. His disclaimer was that it doesn't work with every gun, so you'd have to try and see what happened. Tap rack first obviously, but then you'll see what kind of malf it is. Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.
I've seen that taught several places, with variations on whether the magazine is ejected partially or all the way. It works in Glocks pretty well, and it can work in some others.
Thanks for the report.
Do you think the Gen 5 Glocks had issues with the dinged up training rounds due to tight chamber tolerances?
Since this thread was started, I have run several thousand rounds through my Gen 5 Glock 19 with almost zero issues. A good number of the rounds were reloads with both lead and fmj projectiles weighing between 115g and 147g. All the issues were with once fired +P+ brass regardless of projectile used for the reload.
For this and other reasons, I'm an advocate of having both dedicated training and duty mags. Especially if it's a metal mag.
Known issue with the ST Action Pros. Even if they are in well-used condition, holding the gun upright in the workspace will allow the shooter to run the slide with regular effort. Tighter tolerances of the gen5's GMB have nothing to do with it. (It's predictable enough that I use this combo to ID shooters that are cheating on their stoppage clearance drills.)
I've seen that taught several places, with variations on whether the magazine is ejected partially or all the way. It works in Glocks pretty well, and it can work in some others.
Yeah I now have duty/training designated mags.
Yeah I now have duty/training designated mags.
Now number them all. It's the only way to know when to throw them away :D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.