View Full Version : 22lr Trainers
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-18, 21:56
I have a sickness, a little one. 22 caliber to be exact. I got bit by the 22lr trainer for bolt guns a few years ago. It started with a 40X and it continued with a CZ455 VPT “for my son” and culminated with converting the 40X to a repeater. To be perfectly frank, if you want to keep some money and room in your gun safe, stop reading now.
I am a member of the “40X Mafia” and my ‘Don’ is Hoser. Colorado may have the largest concentration of 40X and conversions and Hoser has been hosting some 22lr comps down at PWSA. My son and I try to make them, but end up at as many 22lr Praire Dog Matches at CRCI as we can.
So what is so great about 22 trainers? They bring a smile to this fat boys face like refrigerator-Jello cake. They are just a hoot to shoot and cheap, once you get a gun. They also are pretty good trainers. I started looking at the relationship between the 22lr ballistics and centerfire cartridges, specifically 308.
What I started to see is that 22lr comes down to about 1/4 scale 308. I posted my findings over at The Hide.
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/it-looks-like-subsonic-22lr-is-about-25-of-7-62x51-175gr-out-of-a-18inch-r700.6395085/
Other people have looked at it to, and come to similar conclusions:
https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-news/22lr-long-range-trainer-how-to-get-best-out-of-it
And there is an article about it with some cool graphs, data and discussion.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/06/long-range-22lr-trainer-get-best/
It’s not perfect. There is a lot of temperature sensativity that isn’t explained by ballistic calculators and air temp. I’m looking to spend a couple of mornings parsing out the 200m performance and trying to nail down the air, ammo and gun temp influences.
But for drop and wind. They are great tools. If you have kids they are fun ways to get them into shooting. If you live in the Denver area, I highly suggest either the PWSA or the CRCI matches to shoot with the kids.
There are great gun options out there. It is tough to beat a CZ455 VPT, or build up from a standard 455. The 40X and Voodo actions are awesome to get into the same stocks as the centerfire guns. The Ruger 22 RPR looks promising. Ruger 10/22 are an addiction that luckily I have been able to avoid.
Welcome to the sickness.
tigershilone
03-07-18, 22:19
Screw your controlled round feed 40x repeater conversion. Damn thing cost me a call to VGW for a Ravage, who co-incidentally called back today to say it shipped!
I'd like to re-pay that favor, finally got the Kidd 10/22 accurately doped 10 to 200yd so come shoot it. Learned that a semi-auto is about 35-60 FPS slower than a bolt gun with same barrel length. I really need to chrono more often.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-18, 23:36
You going to bring the Voodo to the match on the 17th? Looks like we should be there.
I have an Anchutz, but its the heavy barrel hunting gun vs a nice target shooter. Heavy barrel is relative in 22's. I did buy the cheap Savage bolt gun with threaded barrel and rail and tactical bolt knob, its pretty nice too. I stopped just in time from going off into 40X world.
I enjoy shooting them, but I prefer my rem 700 5R in 223 for my trainer gun. Its all good.
I checked your post on the Hide, pretty cool stuff you did. I may have to test the 1/4 theory out for my stuff.
PB
SeriousStudent
03-08-18, 19:10
I have a Kidd Engineering 10/22 and a CZ 455 Tacticool. I love them both, and they are incredibly fun for the youngsters to shoot suppressed.
I shoot at CRC but I don't know much about the rimfire matches. I'll have to check them out.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-18, 19:15
Thanks. My theory on 22lr targets is that every shot should count. No “where did it go”. So I’m not a fan of off shapped (Praire dog) targets. a 1/4 scale IPSC is A LOT smaller than you’d think. It is 1/4 in each direction, so 1/16 the surface area. It is still pretty big, so I like the smaller center hole to refine shots. The target is really the the center hole, the face is for ‘misses’. Hoser mentioned about the face being able to twist to show R/L impacts, so I’m trying to incorporate them into the 2nd gen. I like the 1/4 scale IPSC because it re-enforces the visual of target approximating what you’d see through a centerfire scope.
voiceofreason
03-25-18, 08:10
What is your opinion on the Tikka T1x? I know it's speculation, but wondering how it will compare with the CZ455
tigershilone
03-26-18, 03:05
What is your opinion on the Tikka T1x? I know it's speculation, but wondering how it will compare with the CZ455
That's the big question. Tikka trigger and being able to use T3 series stocks make it a winner all ready and Sako makes the barrels for both Sako and Tikka (not confirmed yet for the T1x from my research). I dont see how this can go wrong, especially in the low $400 range. I like my CZ455, but I would buy the T1x over it. Hell, I got a Vudoo and I'm still probably going to pick up a T1x. Need more .22 matches, it's pushing the Center fire stuff off stage for me.
Heavyweight
08-16-19, 10:02
I know this is an old thread but I found it when I was doing my research for my T1x. Thought I'd throw in my experience.
The rifle is amazing. For $469 I just don't see how you can beat it. I've got an Anschutz 1712 I paid over $2K for and this Tikka keeps right up with it. Pretty much bone stock. I did add one of Tikka's after market forearms and pistol grips but that's it. I haven't dropped it in a chassis, swapped the trigger or glass bedded it. The only thing I added was a suppressor. What I found in this case with this rifle is that it seems to have far fewer fliers than my unsuppressed Anschutz. Using Lapua Midas ammo, a solid one piece rest and a Bushnell 4500 8-32x40 scope it is boringly accurate. On a still day you can cover a 20 round group shot at 50 yards with your thumbnail. I turned the trigger down to it's lightest setting and it breaks just under 2 lbs. It's not a pretty gun but man does it shoot!
My friends laughed at me when I showed up at the club with it. It's sure not as pretty as that 1712 ( I still love that rifle...on looks alone). But it shot just as well as the 40x, Anschutz 54 and Vudoo that day. I know how incredulous that sounds. Believe it or not. My advice is to buy one and then try calling me a liar. I'm telling you I've never been more surprised in my life. I know Tikka makes a good rifle but damn!
Stay Safe
Heavyweight
I enjoy shooting them, but I prefer my rem 700 5R in 223 for my trainer gun. Its all good.
PB
I love shooting .22 as well, from my tricked out 10-22's. But prefer a .223 trainer bolt gun too. A few reasons: (1) Limited LH .22 bolt gun options, I can't get a Tikka T1x (yet--they exist but not in CONUS), can't get a Ruger American, can't get the new CZ options, Savage has some but meh, and I won't spend the coin for a Vudoo, (2) For training with a bolt gun, I prefer a SLIGHTLY more realistic centerfire shooting experience--a little recoil, able to shoot out to real-world distances, (3) Want the round I train with to be ideally something useful for hunting up to medium size game, (4) It's convenient since I already stock a lot of 5.56/.223 for my AR's.
Yeah I know, the cost of the ammo. But .223 is more affordable than other centerfires, and with a bolt gun, I'm just not burning ammo that fast anyway.
Adrenaline_6
08-16-19, 15:50
I know this is an old thread but I found it when I was doing my research for my T1x. Thought I'd throw in my experience.
The rifle is amazing. For $469 I just don't see how you can beat it. I've got an Anschutz 1712 I paid over $2K for and this Tikka keeps right up with it. Pretty much bone stock. I did add one of Tikka's after market forearms and pistol grips but that's it. I haven't dropped it in a chassis, swapped the trigger or glass bedded it. The only thing I added was a suppressor. What I found in this case with this rifle is that it seems to have far fewer fliers than my unsuppressed Anschutz. Using Lapua Midas ammo, a solid one piece rest and a Bushnell 4500 8-32x40 scope it is boringly accurate. On a still day you can cover a 20 round group shot at 50 yards with your thumbnail. I turned the trigger down to it's lightest setting and it breaks just under 2 lbs. It's not a pretty gun but man does it shoot!
My friends laughed at me when I showed up at the club with it. It's sure not as pretty as that 1712 ( I still love that rifle...on looks alone). But it shot just as well as the 40x, Anschutz 54 and Vudoo that day. I know how incredulous that sounds. Believe it or not. My advice is to buy one and then try calling me a liar. I'm telling you I've never been more surprised in my life. I know Tikka makes a good rifle but damn!
Stay Safe
Heavyweight
The T1x is definitely on my get list. Thanks for the confirmation that it is a good decision.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-17-19, 19:28
Especially if you reload, the 223 I can understand being better than a 22lr trainer. 22lr struggles beyond 150 yards as the ammo starts to be a big determinate of accuracy. I don't think that it is a big surprise that a centerfire round would emulate better another centerfire round. That the 22lr does as well as it does is kind of amazing.
Where I think it would be interesting is training on movers, where a lot of repetition would be a big virtue. Just getting the target size, speed and distance (ToF) in scale and being able to leverage that experience is the question I have. Hoser has movers at his . 22lr PRS match. That is humbling.
But as heavyweight has seen, a few hundred buck and some OK ammo will get you a whole lot of training for $500. Sure you can polish it and spend 10x that. But for training on 100yards . and in targets on position and just scope/reticle manipulation- that is hard to beat. Plus I just get the giggles shooting 22lr- especially accurate 22lr. Plus, with my 40X repeater in an AI chassis you get guys scratching their heads as to why it is so quiet...
I have a CZ455 set up as a trainer. It's in basically the same chassis as my match gun and is a great little training tool.
For practice I'll usually set up steel targets at 100, 150, 175, and sometime 200 yds. Typically using 4" squares or circles at the closer ranges, and a little 33% IPSC hanging from chains at 200. Come up for the 200 yard target is about 6.5 mil.
Other than the lack of recoil (& noise), everything else that goes into shooting a stage is basically the same as with the big gun: building a solid position, breathing, trigger control, follow through, spotting hits/misses, transitioning targets, stage planning, etc. It's been a really great training tool. My buddies and I can easily burn through a 100-200 rounds each in an hour or two of shooting practice stages with the 22s.
As far as ammo cost, I shoot SK Plus at around $6 for 50rds, or $.12/rd. That's less than I pay per projectile for the 75gr handloads I shoot through the 223 training barrel I have for the match gun. Plus there's still the cost of powder, primer, and my time sitting at the reloading bench.
I "wanted" a Vudoo, but couldn't see forking out that kind of money for the amount of shooting I currently do. My Anschutz Super Match 54 was really nice, as well as the CZ 452 and CZ455 Tacticool. Sold them all in my "downsizing" phase and used the funds for a Tikka T1X package and banked the remaining money.
Now have a T1X with the factory stock with upgrades to match my CTR configured 6.5CM rifle by adding a T3X buttpad, beavertail forend, and vertical grip. Added a DIP bolt handle, scope rail, and replaced the plastic thread protector with a metal one. I splurged on a GRS Berserk Stock with a major discount, but didn't care for it after the test fitting so I got a refund and decided to keep it in the configuration of my CTR.
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Nice man. Those Tikka’s should be putting a good dent in the .22 market.
I know you wanted a Vudoo so here is a few pics of mine. The most fun you can have at the range. Shooting 350 yards and hitting small steel plates freaks everyone out.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/a1701cf5c0b795d1c82f12a371926f53.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/3bddd0ccb2867c713b76750c5e28977d.jpg
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bnanaphone
10-18-19, 11:02
The T1X offers an exceptional bang for your buck. There are a few at the monthly match and they do just fine. I agree the Vudoo rifles are stupid money for a .22 but I couldn't resist.
In the end, I would have spent the same amount with a tricked out T1X in a chassis plus the KIDD Supergrade (I was going to buy also) and PST Gen II for each. Buy once cry once, right? My Vudoo gets more use than the rest of my firearms combined.
https://i.imgur.com/iGNwEgD.jpg
The T1X offers an exceptional bang for your buck. There are a few at the monthly match and they do just fine. I agree the Vudoo rifles are stupid money for a .22 but I couldn't resist. In the end, I would have spent the same amount with a tricked out T1X in a chassis plus the KIDD Supergrade and PST Gen II for each. Buy once cry once, right? My Vudoo gets more use than the rest of my firearms combined.
https://i.imgur.com/iGNwEgD.jpg
Nice man! I have struggled my whole life when I try and buy “good enough” it always cost me more money.
So know I just save longer and buy what I think I have to have at the time. The vudoo’s are fun.
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Nice man. Those Tikka’s should be putting a good dent in the .22 market.
I know you wanted a Vudoo so here is a few pics of mine. The most fun you can have at the range. Shooting 350 yards and hitting small steel plates freaks everyone out.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/a1701cf5c0b795d1c82f12a371926f53.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/3bddd0ccb2867c713b76750c5e28977d.jpg
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OK that is just awesome on steroids. If I got a .22 bolt gun, the Vudoo is the one I've wanted but couldn't bring myself to spend custom centerfire bolt gun prices. But....awesome rifle.
i just bought a stiller 2500xr and then chambered a benchmark 3 groove barrel for it.. placed the barreled action in a manner t4 and this dam think shoots right with my benchrest stuff. amazingly accurate at 50 yards. one hole groups with lapua center x. crazy town accurate!!!! lee
I’ve been having a lot of fun with my T1x. Setting it up in a KRG Bravo makes it a perfect trainer for my TRG.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/bf5014a0279b6b14527a140182607778.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/3695e7d143b8980f160509b1057e5076.jpg
I’m glad it likes CCI Standard. It seems like the SK Rifle and Pistol is worth the small premium over the SK Standard. Here’s some ammo testing at 50yds.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/63ea7404b347cc3269c403615a234040.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/83fe789c0a192a59a97f8dece389fac5.jpg
SK Rifle Match 100yds
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/15786bb4cf8385bd2f0a3d8c97a7590a.jpg
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Agreed...
I don't want to go down the 40X rabbit hole, but years ago I started my .22lr career with an old Marlin 25 and a cheap Nikon "shotgun" scope.
My "upgrade" is a Ruger American Rimfire (RAR) and a Nikon Monarch. It consistently shoots CCI SV less than 1moa (<.75") out to 75yds.
Two thoughts:
Scalability: It occurs to me that the inconsistency at <70yds (.22lr) and <200yds (.308) is because the height of the scope over the bore isn't proportionate... If you could mount your .308's scope 6" or 8" above the bore, then you'd see a .22lr-like curve.
.17HMR is a nice "compromise" trainer: Maybe it's the "half-scale" or "2/3rds" trainer? The tiny bullets going 2,700fps shoot very flat at 150yds and beyond. Ammo is still relatively cheap, and recoil is insignificant.
Bergara is introducing a .22lr B-14 in an HMR stock. Looks interesting. Price point seems high. But maybe not? I guess we'll see.
https://www.bergara.online/us/blog/new-product-release-bergara-rifles-to-introduce-their-b-14-22-lr-rifle-at-the-nasgw-expo-in-orlando-fl-oct-22-25-2019/
Bergara is introducing a .22lr B-14 in an HMR stock. Looks interesting. Price point seems high. But maybe not?
MSRP of $1,150?
Yeah, I think that's high.
On the other hand, if you shoot 2,000 rounds of .22lr through it, instead of shooting 2,000 rounds of centerfire, then it would pay for itself in terms of ammo and a new barrel...
Bergara is introducing a .22lr B-14 in an HMR stock. Looks interesting. Price point seems high. But maybe not? I guess we'll see.
https://www.bergara.online/us/blog/new-product-release-bergara-rifles-to-introduce-their-b-14-22-lr-rifle-at-the-nasgw-expo-in-orlando-fl-oct-22-25-2019/
It's aimed at the precision rifle crowd, and there's a growing market for precision style 22lr guns, partly driven by NRL22 and similar competitions.
It should provide a more affordable, mass produced alternative to the Vudoo V-22 rifle, and is definitely priced right in that regard. Vudoo barreled actions start at north of $1700 (and still require a trigger, stock/chassis, etc.).
https://vudoogunworks.com/action/patented-vudoo-v-22-rimfire-repeater-action/
I want a Bergara centerfire, badly, but I don't shoot my cheap Savage FCP-SR to justify upgrading (yet).
If I had a Bergara HMR, then buying a Bergara in .22lr would make sense, though I would run the numbers a half-dozen times to make sure.
Because I'm a stingy bastard, I'm more likely to get a $400 Ruger American Ranch in .223 as a "step up" from my $300 Ruger American Rimfires.
I shoot a 6.5C HMR so the new rimfire caught my eye. It does compare favorably to Vudoo price wise. I don't know if I'm ready to spend a grand on a rimfire. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
SeriousStudent
10-27-19, 17:24
MSRP of $1,150?
Yeah, I think that's high.
On the other hand, if you shoot 2,000 rounds of .22lr through it, instead of shooting 2,000 rounds of centerfire, then it would pay for itself in terms of ammo and a new barrel...
Yup, that is exactly how I paid for my CZ. I did the math, and it was a much easier purchase to make using your logic.
FYI, there is an article somewhere on SniperHide where some Scandinavian sniper team trains their shooters on 22LRs, for drop & wind practice.
I too get a ‘kick’ out of 22LR Trainers, like my Kadet slide for the CZ-75B, of which I shoot indoor bullseye score only songle digits below my S&W model41. But the barrel insert & bolt for my British SMLE Enfield No1 Mk3 Probably turn the most heads when I pull it out at the indoor range.
One guy put a Compass Lake 22LR upper on his AR and won both the 100 & 200-yd smallbore championship this year, beating all the $3-4K Anshultz and the like. Set records too for smallest group @ 100Y.
Failure2Stop
10-28-19, 10:34
I recently picked up a Tikka T1X and dropped it into an Oryx chassis.
Have maybe 500 rounds through her so far, still trying to find the right ammo.
I have not been happy with Lapua X-Act, but SK Pistol was ok. Waiting on Center-X. CCI SV has wildly different performance between lots, and Green Tag isn't a whole lot better. Now, I am talking about ragged edge performance (0.5" threshold at 50 yards), not general use.
Lots of fun at 400 yards, but wind is a super serious interaction.
I've recently been bitten by the long range bug again, and hard... I have been considering finally spending the money on a .22 trainer, so this thread is pure gold for me. Definitely interested in being able to replicate a centerfire platform in .22LR and am curious, if any of you guys with experience with "full size" 22 precision guns were to go through the research and purchase exercise again knowing what you know now, where would you start? I'm of the mentality that if you're going to buy something, it's best to spend money on quality and do it right the first time.
So, any thoughts? I'm especially curious about a Compass Lake 22LR upper for the moment, as I seem to reach for my 18" AR far more often than anything else these days for distance...
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-07-19, 07:37
Here's the rabbit hole that I started down...
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/it-looks-like-subsonic-22lr-is-about-25-of-7-62x51-175gr-out-of-a-18inch-r700.6395085/
My boy got more interested in shooting ARs last year and this year and our local Praire Dog match got cancelled permanently, and getting down to Hoser's is a pain with time and distance. That all saved me from going overboard.
One thing that Hoser has at his PRS22 matches is a mover target. That is pretty neat. I haven't run the math on it yet. I know 22lr is 1/4 scale 308 in distance/measurements, but I'm not sure if it is 1:1 in time- as in do leads work the same if you scale the targets...
Holy rabbit hole Batman!
What a great read, thanks for the link. Interesting how the ratios and drop truly are quite comparable to 1/4 scale. I just ran a mild comparison (not a precise one, and purely with theoretical numbers) between 22LR (Lapua 40gr.) and .308 (175gr. OTM), and the time in flight doesn't match up nearly as consistently as the drop compensation.
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I didn't run windage data, but according to the Finaccuracy article mentioned on SH, windage data is accordingly scaled https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-news/22lr-long-range-trainer-how-to-get-best-out-of-it
Interesting stuff... This isn't helping to talk me out of spending entirely too much on a .22LR trainer build. Coupled with a few 1/4 sized targets, I might just find myself with a very capable solution for shooting at "long distances" in a compressed range.
Very cool.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-12-19, 00:33
Can you post a bigger copy? I don't seem to be able to get that big enough to read.
10 years ago the only real 22lr trainers were the ones that Moon at GAP did and they were expensive. Now less than 1k gets you in the set-up that is more than adequate. Kind of like 15 years ago if you wanted FFP tactical scopes it was S&B and one other guy, not who doesn't make a $500 FFP scope?
Failure2Stop
11-15-19, 08:52
Comparing 308 175gr SMK at 2600 f/s to a .22 LR 40gr at 1070 f/s with 10 mph wind effect:
.308 at 100 yards (zero distance) 0.0 mils elevation / 0.25 mils wind = .22 LR at 50 yards (zero distance) 0.0 mils elevation / 0.7 mils wild
.308 at 200 yards: 0.6 mils elevation / 0.5 mils wind = .22 LR at 65 yards: 0.6 mils elevation / 0.9 mils wind
.308 at 300 yards: 1.4 mils elevation / 0.75 mils wind = .22 LR at 85 yards: 1.4 mils elevation / 1.2 mils wind
.308 at 370 yards: 2.0 mils elevation / 1.0 mils wind = .22 LR at 100 yards: 2.0 mils elevation / 1.4 mils wind
.308 at 590 yards: 4.6 mils elevation / 1.7 mils wind = .22 LR at 150 yards: 4.6 mils elevation / 2.0 mils wind
.308 at 780 yards: 7.4 mils elevation / 2.4 Mils wind = .22 LR at 200 yards: 7.4 mils elevation / 2.6 mils wind
.308 at 950 yards: 10.7 mils elevation / 3.2 mils wind = .22 LR at 250 yards: 10.6 mils elevation / 3.2 mils wind
.308 at 1090 yards: 14.0 mils elevation / 3.9 mils wind = .22 LR at 300 yards: 14.0 mils elevation / 3.8 mils wind
Drop and drift matches up the most between 780 yards with .308 / 200 yards with .22 through 1100 yards with .308 / 305 yards with .22 LR.
For some reason I'm having trouble posting a larger copy. Here's the data which was on the picture. Keep in mind again that these are calculated with theoretical variables:
22LR Lapua X 40 gr 308 Black Hills 176 gr OTM Sound Barrier 1116 FPS
Distance Velocity Drop (Mils) Time in Flight Distance Velocity Drop (Mils) Time in Flight Ratio - Time In Flight
50 998 -0.01 0.15 100 2511 0 0.21 0.714285714
60 986 0.32 0.18 150 2425 0.26 0.31 0.580645161
200 2340 0.62 0.42 0.5
70 974 0.7 0.21 2256 1.02 0.53 0.452830189
80 963 1.11 0.24 250 2175 1.45 0.65 0.415384615
90 952 1.55 0.27 300 2095 1.92 0.77 0.38961039
100 941 2 0.3 350 2016 2.43 0.9 0.366666667
110 931 2.47 0.33 400 1940 2.96 1.03 0.359223301
120 922 2.96 0.37 450 1865 3.52 1.16 0.344827586
130 912 3.45 0.4
140 903 3.96 0.43 500 1792 4.12 1.3 0.330769231
150 894 4.48 0.46 550 1722 4.76 1.45 0.317241379
160 886 5.01 0.5 600 1653 5.43 1.6 0.3125
170 878 5.56 0.53 650 1587 6.14 1.76 0.301136364
180 869 6.11 0.57 700 1524 6.9 1.92 0.296875
190 862 6.67 0.6 750 1463 7.7 2.09 0.28708134
1404 8.56 2.26 0.283185841
200 854 7.23 0.64 800 1349 9.46 2.44 0.274590164
210 846 7.81 0.67 850 1297 10.43 2.62 0.270992366
220 839 8.4 0.71 900 1249 11.45 2.8 0.264285714
230 831 8.99 0.74 950 1204 12.53 2.99 0.260869565
240 824 9.6 0.78 1000 1164 13.68 3.18 0.257861635
250 817 10.21 0.82 1050 1128 14.89 3.37 0.252225519
260 810 10.83 0.85 1100 1095 16.17 3.56 0.25
270 804 11.46 0.89 1150 1066 17.51 3.75 0.248
280 797 12.1 0.93 1200 1040 18.93 3.94 0.246192893
290 791 12.74 0.97 1250 1017 20.41 4.13 0.242130751
300 784 13.4 1.0 1300 996 21.97 4.31 0.232018561
Disregard the "HTML Code" tag - it was the only way that I could get something remotely resembling a chart to format...
Basically what we are seeing here is that there isn't a 1:1 correlation in terms of flight time (used to calculate holds for movers) BUT... you could adjust the speed of your moving targets with the above coefficients to reproduce a 1:1 hold equivalent (for instance, if you wanted to simulate a 500 yard mover for your .308 rifle with your .22 trainer while shooting at 140 yards the equivalent distance to 500 yards in .308 according to the above chart you would multiply any target speed let's say 3mph @500yd for .308 by 3 to reproduce the equivalent hold required in mils for your .22 trainer at the corresponding distance [so now you have a target moving at 9mph for your 22 which will reproduce the same hold in mils in your reticle as a target at 500 yards traveling at 3mph]).
In theory, this method would also allow you to dial for wind with your .22 trainer and the ratios would hold to reproduce the equivalent conditions with .308. That's a LOT of theory, though, and I could very well be wrong here in practice.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-15-19, 18:37
The issue I have is that the 22lr guns seem sensative to temp and round count past 190yards. Like get dope at 8am at 50F and b noon at 80F we are talking a MIL difference in elevation.
The other thing that I think I'm divining is that when I zero at 50, there is always a bit of wind and it moves it enough that the zero isn't right- either that of my scope and bore on the 22lr aren't planar and I'm getting a weird L-R switch as distance increases. Next time I'm going to 'zero' left and right at 15 yards so it is a true no-wind zero. Or I might just be crazy. Or really, 'and'.
Temperature definitely makes a difference in every caliber, and it is easily overlooked at any given moment, until after you break the first shot when conditions either warm up or cool down.
Sounds like a good justification to go shooting in either case! I know that "checking my zero" is always a good justification for a trip to the range as, you know, those things could change if I'm not paying close attention ;)
Temperature definitely makes a difference in every caliber, and it is easily overlooked at any given moment, until after you break the first shot when conditions either warm up or cool down.
Sounds like a good justification to go shooting in either case! I know that "checking my zero" is always a good justification for a trip to the range as, you know, those things could change if I'm not paying close attention ;)
I make do with a Ruger Precision .22 and Eley CMP bulk ammo. It will shoot sub 1/2" at 50 and 1" at 100. At 200 as long as the wind stays down it will shoot under 2.5 all day long- 10 shot groups. I'm pretty happy considering it's a $375 rifle with a Primary Arms scope shooting .07 a round ammo.....
Failure2Stop
11-18-19, 16:55
I make do with a Ruger Precision .22 and Eley CMP bulk ammo. It will shoot sub 1/2" at 50 and 1" at 100. At 200 as long as the wind stays down it will shoot under 2.5 all day long- 10 shot groups. I'm pretty happy considering it's a $375 rifle with a Primary Arms scope shooting .07 a round ammo.....
Awesome that you're getting good performance with Eley CMP bulk.
My T1X definitely prefers Tenex and SK Biathlon Sport. The SK isn't too bad at $0.13 each, but half that would be great!
Awesome that you're getting good performance with Eley CMP bulk.
My T1X definitely prefers Tenex and SK Biathlon Sport. The SK isn't too bad at $0.13 each, but half that would be great!
It's not as competitive as "really good ammo"....but I'm satisfied with the combination. Some day I may re barrel the rifle, Lija and Krieger make barrels I believe. I have shot some RWS, WOLF, TENEX, MIDAS etc from the rifle but not enough to really develop data for it. With te Eley I have data to 500 yards, I've shot a full case of it through the gun...
Trainers?
Here's a trainer of a different sort.
Smith 15-22 that I converted to LE6920 spec.
Trainers?
Here's a trainer of a different sort.
Smith 15-22 that I converted to LE6920 spec.
Very cool rig you got. Love the carry handles.
I did the same thing, I put a damn SSA trigger and aimpoint and surefire can. Stupid, twice as much money in parts and pieces as gun. But its nice.
PB
While I save for my build I'm going to practice with our CZ 455.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-26-20, 01:24
That is a good idea. There is a lot of discussion over on The Hide that 22s may go through a generational change in the next year or so. Faster twists than the 1:16 standard, new people making repeating actions for the R700 foot print, new potential ammo. It may be a game changer in the +200yrd 22lr technology. CZ455 with a good trigger is hard to beat...
Adrenaline_6
05-07-20, 17:47
Just ordered my Tikka T1x. Finally. My LGS says it might take 4 weeks to get to me even though it's in stock at their warehouses. Oh well, it will give me time to decide on what optic. There seems to be a lot of love for the 5-20 Weaver GS on Rimfire Central for that price point. Still weighing the options.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-10-20, 19:57
Just ordered my Tikka T1x. Finally. My LGS says it might take 4 weeks to get to me even though it's in stock at their warehouses. Oh well, it will give me time to decide on what optic. There seems to be a lot of love for the 5-20 Weaver GS on Rimfire Central for that price point. Still weighing the options.
There are so many great scope options out there. From stuff that mimics your centerfire closely, to just good scopes for pretty good prices. And as we get more generations of scopes the older ones on the used market are great values too.
BrigandTwoFour
06-10-20, 11:52
I just got my T1x together yesterday. I've been planning an entry into the 22LR market for a while both as a trainer for my larger rifles and a competition gun in its own right for NRL22 stuff.
Tikka T1x 22LR with 20" barrel
Oryx Chassis with two additional spacers
Atlas Bipod
WieBad cheek pad
Area 419 30 MOA scope base
Vortex PMR rings
Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front-bw.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-rear.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-quarter-land.jpg
I just got my T1x together yesterday. I've been planning an entry into the 22LR market for a while both as a trainer for my larger rifles and a competition gun in its own right for NRL22 stuff.
Tikka T1x 22LR with 20" barrel
Oryx Chassis with two additional spacers
Atlas Bipod
WieBad cheek pad
Area 419 30 MOA scope base
Vortex PMR rings
Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front-bw.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-rear.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-quarter-land.jpg
Thats a bad bad boy. I should shoot my 22's more. I have several nice 22's and almost never shoot them. Shoot that biggin!
PB
I just got my T1x together yesterday. I've been planning an entry into the 22LR market for a while both as a trainer for my larger rifles and a competition gun in its own right for NRL22 stuff.
Tikka T1x 22LR with 20" barrel
Oryx Chassis with two additional spacers
Atlas Bipod
WieBad cheek pad
Area 419 30 MOA scope base
Vortex PMR rings
Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front-bw.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-rear.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-quarter-land.jpg
Very nice build! .22s are wonderfully versatile, and you're going to have loads of fun shooting that one!
I just got my T1x together yesterday. I've been planning an entry into the 22LR market for a while both as a trainer for my larger rifles and a competition gun in its own right for NRL22 stuff.
Tikka T1x 22LR with 20" barrel
Oryx Chassis with two additional spacers
Atlas Bipod
WieBad cheek pad
Area 419 30 MOA scope base
Vortex PMR rings
Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-front-bw.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-rear.jpg
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/oryx-quarter-land.jpg
Nice rifle! How do you like that Strike Eagle?
BrigandTwoFour
06-10-20, 15:23
Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't actually had it out to the range yet. I'm mostly comparing it to some of the other scopes I've been handling/reviewing lately for my site (Meopta Optkia6 5-30x56, Athlon ARES ETR 4.5-30x56, and Steiner P4xi 4-16x56). The Meopta and Athlon were loaners from a friend and fellow blogger, the P4xi is one that I own and mounted to my main rifle.
When I consider that those other scopes ranged from $800 to $1200 MSRP, the Strike Eagle really does bring a lot to the table for its cost (I paid less than $500 for it with a .mil discount). The glass is good, though not in the same class as the $1000+ optics. I think it's more than enough for the kinds of competition's I'll be using this rifle in. The turrets are locking, which is something a lot of people like. I don't particularly care one way or the other about locking, though I think it works well here because the turrets are easy to turn while still keeping distinct clicks. The clicks aren't as solid as the Steiner, but to be fair a lot of people complain that the Steiner's knobs were too beefy.
The illumination is very good, and I like that "this one goes to 11." I think the reticle is really good if you like the tree-style, second only to the Optika6 I tested. It's the same reticle found in the Razor Gen 2 that is so prominent in PRS, so it works really well as a trainer for that optic.
My eye does pick up a little bit of fringing when I jump to maximum magnification. It's not terrible, and certainly not enough to bother me in regular use. All optics have that to some degree or another.
In all, I think this one is a really good buy for it's segment of the market.
Edit to add: One of the biggest reasons I went with the Strike Eagle is that it focuses down to 15 yards, which is HUGE for a 22LR competition optic.
Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't actually had it out to the range yet. I'm mostly comparing it to some of the other scopes I've been handling/reviewing lately for my site (Meopta Optkia6 5-30x56, Athlon ARES ETR 4.5-30x56, and Steiner P4xi 4-16x56). The Meopta and Athlon were loaners from a friend and fellow blogger, the P4xi is one that I own and mounted to my main rifle.
Would you mind briefly sharing your thoughts on the Ares ETR vs Optika6?
Nice looking rifle BTW.
Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't actually had it out to the range yet. I'm mostly comparing it to some of the other scopes I've been handling/reviewing lately for my site (Meopta Optkia6 5-30x56, Athlon ARES ETR 4.5-30x56, and Steiner P4xi 4-16x56). The Meopta and Athlon were loaners from a friend and fellow blogger, the P4xi is one that I own and mounted to my main rifle.
When I consider that those other scopes ranged from $800 to $1200 MSRP, the Strike Eagle really does bring a lot to the table for its cost (I paid less than $500 for it with a .mil discount). The glass is good, though not in the same class as the $1000+ optics. I think it's more than enough for the kinds of competition's I'll be using this rifle in. The turrets are locking, which is something a lot of people like. I don't particularly care one way or the other about locking, though I think it works well here because the turrets are easy to turn while still keeping distinct clicks. The clicks aren't as solid as the Steiner, but to be fair a lot of people complain that the Steiner's knobs were too beefy.
The illumination is very good, and I like that "this one goes to 11." I think the reticle is really good if you like the tree-style, second only to the Optika6 I tested. It's the same reticle found in the Razor Gen 2 that is so prominent in PRS, so it works really well as a trainer for that optic.
My eye does pick up a little bit of fringing when I jump to maximum magnification. It's not terrible, and certainly not enough to bother me in regular use. All optics have that to some degree or another.
In all, I think this one is a really good buy for it's segment of the market.
Edit to add: One of the biggest reasons I went with the Strike Eagle is that it focuses down to 15 yards, which is HUGE for a 22LR competition optic.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I think I'll order one up. It'll be going on a 22lr bolt gun also (though not as nice as yours!). It sounds perfect for 22lr out to about 250-300 yards.
BrigandTwoFour
06-28-20, 07:23
Would you mind briefly sharing your thoughts on the Ares ETR vs Optika6?
Nice looking rifle BTW.
Hey, sorry I missed this (been away for a bit).
Optically, the Optika6 is better. I also much preferred the Meopta's reticle between the two. However, they made a few odd decisions with the turrets like a locking elevation turret but non-locking windage. It had a few other things about it that I liked, such as a built-in throw lever system that you can adjust to different positions as needed.
The ETR is a very well executed all-around scope. Its optics aren't up to the European competition, but they are more than sufficient. Everything about it shows careful consideration, though. I thought it's reticle as just a little too busy, but that is very much personal preference.
If you have the funds for the ETR, then I would probably go that route. But since the Optika6 is found on sale a lot these days for less than $1k, I think it's a great option as well.
FWIW, here are my thoughts on each of them in more detail:
The Metopta Optika6 (https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/meopta-optika6-5-30/)
Athlon Ares ETR (https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/athlon-ares-etr/)
Hey, sorry I missed this (been away for a bit).
Optically, the Optika6 is better. I also much preferred the Meopta's reticle between the two. However, they made a few odd decisions with the turrets like a locking elevation turret but non-locking windage. It had a few other things about it that I liked, such as a built-in throw lever system that you can adjust to different positions as needed.
The ETR is a very well executed all-around scope. Its optics aren't up to the European competition, but they are more than sufficient. Everything about it shows careful consideration, though. I thought it's reticle as just a little too busy, but that is very much personal preference.
If you have the funds for the ETR, then I would probably go that route. But since the Optika6 is found on sale a lot these days for less than $1k, I think it's a great option as well.
FWIW, here are my thoughts on each of them in more detail:
The Metopta Optika6 (https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/meopta-optika6-5-30/)
Athlon Ares ETR (https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/athlon-ares-etr/)
Thanks!
BrigandTwoFour
07-06-20, 08:58
Thanks!
If you're in the market, check out Brownells's new MPO line. It's very well executed in that same price bracket.
64733I have the same sickness and own more then I should. Right now I've got a Anchutz 64, Savage Mark ll in a Manners, Savage Mark ll in a zombie green McRees, Bergara in and McRees' and another one in the factory stock.
contax_shooter
01-01-21, 21:14
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50789084392_42ae75f290_b.jpg
Ruger RPR Rimfire
Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25 MRAD
Badger Ordnance 1.375" rings
Sawtooth Rifles RPRR Arca Rail
Area 419 Fixed Barricade Stop
Cheapskate Precision Bag Rider
MDT grip
I'm hooked with bolt action rimfire and already looking at buying a Bergara B-14R in a KRG Bravo stock as a serious training alternative to my centerfire. This RPRR sort of does the job but it doesn't have any soul and the flimsy plastic rear end flexes quite a bit.
P.S. the Strike Eagle sucks compared to my ATACR 5-25.
Why do you call them "trainers"? All guns are trainers. Rimfires are precision rifles as much as any others, IMO. They aren't Red Ryder BB guns for sure, considering the cost.
Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't actually had it out to the range yet. I'm mostly comparing it to some of the other scopes I've been handling/reviewing lately for my site (Meopta Optkia6 5-30x56, Athlon ARES ETR 4.5-30x56, and Steiner P4xi 4-16x56). The Meopta and Athlon were loaners from a friend and fellow blogger, the P4xi is one that I own and mounted to my main rifle.
When I consider that those other scopes ranged from $800 to $1200 MSRP, the Strike Eagle really does bring a lot to the table for its cost (I paid less than $500 for it with a .mil discount). The glass is good, though not in the same class as the $1000+ optics. I think it's more than enough for the kinds of competition's I'll be using this rifle in. The turrets are locking, which is something a lot of people like. I don't particularly care one way or the other about locking, though I think it works well here because the turrets are easy to turn while still keeping distinct clicks. The clicks aren't as solid as the Steiner, but to be fair a lot of people complain that the Steiner's knobs were too beefy.
The illumination is very good, and I like that "this one goes to 11." I think the reticle is really good if you like the tree-style, second only to the Optika6 I tested. It's the same reticle found in the Razor Gen 2 that is so prominent in PRS, so it works really well as a trainer for that optic.
My eye does pick up a little bit of fringing when I jump to maximum magnification. It's not terrible, and certainly not enough to bother me in regular use. All optics have that to some degree or another.
In all, I think this one is a really good buy for it's segment of the market.
Edit to add: One of the biggest reasons I went with the Strike Eagle is that it focuses down to 15 yards, which is HUGE for a 22LR competition optic.
Consider a Sightron S3 10-50 with whatever reticle you want. I like the MOA-2.
Adrenaline_6
01-18-21, 07:40
My other trainer for now that I use in Action Steel. Last weekends match, no malfs, ran perfectly...not one hiccup. Looking to change the red dot for quicker sight acquisition. Just cannot find an HS512c anywhere. It would be perfect. 35 moa circle with 2 moa dot.
https://i.imgur.com/7HYeoQQ.jpg
Here's one that I built...
https://i.imgur.com/v1fxXgi.jpg
Wow! I was thinking trainers like a Romanian M1969 trainer.
You all do some serious training. LOL
I've been bit by the .22 bug with ammo prices being what they are. I stocked up on lots of .22 at the beginning of the pandemic in anticipation of the shortage.
I just ordered a .22lr Little Badger that I'm pretty excited about, and I'm coveting a Volquartsen Summit with an EOS XL integral on it. Just burns me thinking about having to pony up that kind of cash and then wait 6 months to 2 years to get my hands on it.
I also just ordered a .22 caliber air rifle that will send a 30 grain pellet flying at about 700fps. I realized that air gun silencers aren't regulated, so I've been having lots of fun designing and 3d printing airgun mufflers.
A few days ago I fired five rounds of 223 through my Mk18 to clear out the .22 fouling, and it was just kind of surreal thinking I had just sent a five dollar bill downrange in about 10 seconds.
Here's one that I built...
https://i.imgur.com/v1fxXgi.jpg
Dude that is legitimately beautiful! What is it? Might have to rethink that Summit after all!
bnanaphone
11-04-21, 10:16
This thread needs an update and more pictures!
I took this during a local NRL22X match a few weeks ago. There are some serious trainers in the bunch, including Vudoos, a Sako Quad and a T1X. It was a 10 stage match with some challenging stages with targets that ranged from 40 to 286 yards.
https://i.imgur.com/8JruGNQ.jpg
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