View Full Version : How to clamp upper while installing a muzzle device
Captains1911
03-08-18, 12:17
I am curious about the proper method to hold the upper in a vise while torquing on a muzzle device. I understand that the best way is to clamp the barrel as close to the muzzle as possible using barrel vise blocks, rather than clamping the upper receiver in an upper receiver vise block, because this can potentiality damage the receiver. However, what about situations with longer handguards/rails that extend too far towards the muzzle to allow for the use of barrel blocks? Surely the rail doesn't need to be removed to install and torque the muzzle device, right? I'm specifically referring to devices where the manufacturer recommends 25-30 ft-lbs of torque.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx
Here is Brownell's version, much cheaper https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-barrel-extension-torque-tools-prod27452.aspx
Mark
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx
Believe Brownell's has their version as well.
MarkBrownells version is completely round and doesn't hold in the vice as well as the geissele reaction rod, which has two flattened sides for the vice jaws to clamp onto
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True, but Brownell's version has a square hole in bottom of rod. I insert a 1/2" breaker bar into hole and secure breaker bar in vise, almost vertical. Now barrel is horizontal. Has worked multiple times.
Mark
I got this one https://www.botach.com/kley-zion-barrel-spline-socket-rod-for-ar15-m4-ar10-sr25-upper-receivers/
It's $60 but it has flats ground in to make it easier to put in your vise. Definitely the best way to hold your upper for any work. The Geissele one is over $100.
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If, and when, I buy a barrel extension rod, it will be the Kley Zion.
However, as long as you don't care, the upper doesn't sit at 90 degrees to the ground when clamped in a squared off vice.
So, if you like that and are OCD, the Reaction Rod can accommodate the 90degree positioning of the upper.
Not a big deal to someone like me, so I would rather save $$.
Officially, you should use barrel blocks.
Get an overtorqued hider or an undertorqued extension and you can have a problem with the RR or receiver blocks.
Probably half a dozen threads here on that issue.
Or just use the RR and if the MD does not come right off with reasonable torque, do something different. (Like unset the rockset)
I want a Ned barrel block thingie, but my Lowes poly vice blocks have worked fine on every MD I've done lately.
Or use something like these around the barrel and leave the upper/barrel junction alone.
http://usa.palmettostatearmory.com/wheeler-universal-barrel-clamp-672286.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA24PVBRBvEiwAyBxf-Xsg_5ClVio2IK_EA4D2bMccYWZdNkxiPLevp61ddtnzSTEvuaX2_BoCjqcQAvD_BwE
Another style that needs a sheet of leather between the barrel and the block
http://www.primaryarms.com/ar-15-m16-barrel-vise-jaws-tl05
I use a magpul bev block.
25 lbs ft of torque on a muzzle device
150 lbs ft of torque on a barrel extension
Hell of a difference. However, the proper tool to use would be a barrel fixture and a vise. For some uppers this is not an option, a reaction rod or the BEV is a useful tool
Just did it. Used a Magpul’s BEV. Useful for both an upper and lower.
I lost track of how many hundreds of installs I have done with the Reaction Rod. I wouldn't overthink this.
I lost track of how many hundreds of installs I have done with the Reaction Rod. I wouldn't overthink this.
You have better luck than me. I have probably only done a dozen and twisted off one extension. If it matters it was a melonite barrel.
Leonidas24
03-09-18, 10:52
You have better luck than me. I have probably only done a dozen and twisted off one extension. If it matters it was a melonite barrel.
Out of a few hundred muzzle device removals and installs every broken indexing pin has been on a melonite barrel; they're usually lower quality barrels that are assembled prior to SBN. Everyone of them has had significant corrosion under the barrel extension which I assume was from molten salts seeping into the threads from thermal expansion.
Just purchased Kley Zion AR-15 Armorer Kit for 63 Dollars with EBAY Store Code: PSRING20 for 20% off.
Also got MROs for about 280 summin right now with the same coupon code.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201921690036?ViewItem=&item=201921690036
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VRwAAOSwU1FaBK7-/s-l500.jpg
Yes, it matters. It was probably not done correctly. I have had the Reaction Rod since Bill released them. He sent me 3 along with some other tools and I have never had an issues except with an overtorqued barrel nut.
You have better luck than me. I have probably only done a dozen and twisted off one extension. If it matters it was a melonite barrel.
You have better luck than me. I have probably only done a dozen and twisted off one extension. If it matters it was a melonite barrel.
Seems to be damn common with melonite barrels. It’s a process failure.
1_click_off
03-14-18, 05:32
Several suppliers have the Magpul gear on sale right now. I was able to get the armorers wrench and the BEV for $107 shipped. Ordered it yesterday.
Don't Tread On Me
03-14-18, 08:38
Currently in the market for a BEV block. Which suppliers are running sales?
I swore I saw the BEV block on Botach for 39.99 the last couple days. But, to be honest, I have have been cruising to piece together an upper I am building, and I am all over the web at the moment, so... YMMV.
1_click_off
03-14-18, 08:53
Currently in the market for a BEV block. Which suppliers are running sales?
I ordered mine from primary arms out of houston.
1_click_off
03-14-18, 08:54
I ordered mine from primary arms out of houston.
$39.99 BEV
$59.99 wrench.
$7 and change to ship it.
All in stock as of last night.
Captains1911
03-19-18, 08:23
I just ordered a BEV block from Primary Arms, $44 with shipping.
Captains1911
03-22-18, 10:39
Yes, it matters. It was probably not done correctly. I have had the Reaction Rod since Bill released them. He sent me 3 along with some other tools and I have never had an issues except with an overtorqued barrel nut.
Just curious, how much torque would be required to twist a barrel extension on one that was properly installed?
Just curious, how much torque would be required to twist a barrel extension on one that was properly installed?I think it's around 150 foot pounds .... So if your torquing a barrel nut up to 60 foot pounds it wouldn't ever budge.
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Captains1911
03-22-18, 13:17
I think it's around 150 foot pounds .... So if your torquing a barrel nut up to 60 foot pounds it wouldn't ever budge.
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Got it. I just installed a suppressor QD mount, in which Silencerco recommends 20-30 ft-lbs. I didn't use a torque wrench, but just used a shim that resulted in the brake being about 20-30 degrees out of time when only hand tightened. I tightened it so the the brake was timed properly, using just the wrench tool silencerco included in the box. I doubt you could ever reach torque values even close to 150 ft-lbs with this method.
Ned Christiansen
03-22-18, 13:24
I went full simple and have just milled wrench flats on several barrels right behind the threads. If I could wave a magic wand and turn all M203 barrel cuts into wrench flats instead I bet a lot of people would appreciate it :-)
Ned Christiansen
03-23-18, 12:47
https://i.imgur.com/KVZRDJU.jpg
I went full simple and have just milled wrench flats on several barrels right behind the threads. If I could wave a magic wand and turn all M203 barrel cuts into wrench flats instead I bet a lot of people would appreciate it :-)
https://i.imgur.com/KVZRDJU.jpg
https://media.giphy.com/media/iiS84hOJXh1Pq/giphy.gif
Ned Christiansen
03-23-18, 15:33
Alright mister, you have exactly one year to take that down, or else.....
Sorry wrong post
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https://i.imgur.com/KVZRDJU.jpgI like the white scribble redaction....very G14 classified.
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1_click_off
03-23-18, 17:20
Now just laser-etch torque values next to the flats.
I went full simple and have just milled wrench flats on several barrels right behind the threads. If I could wave a magic wand and turn all M203 barrel cuts into wrench flats instead I bet a lot of people would appreciate it :-)
I like it.
Reminds me of the M4A1
http://www.box.net/shared/static/bh9yo6klc5.jpg
Ned Christiansen
03-24-18, 11:43
In the case of the above barrel with a properly pinned on original-format front sight base, there's yer wrench. Stick something through it if needbe for leverage. Does not apply to cheezy clamped-on or set screwed on versions.
In the case of the above barrel with a properly pinned on original-format front sight base, there's yer wrench. Stick something through it if needbe for leverage. Does not apply to cheezy clamped-on or set screwed on versions.
Do you have any idea how much side torque it would take to snap the tower? Just curious, I know it would be up there.
Ned Christiansen
03-24-18, 13:27
I will see if I can find the time to pick out a scrap barrel with a pinned tower, and do some testing. I'm 100% confident I can strip the threads long before the tower moves.
I will see if I can find the time to pick out a scrap barrel with a pinned tower, and do some testing. I'm 100% confident I can strip the threads long before the tower moves.
I hadn't thought of the threads going. What is the tower actually made of 7075?
Ned Christiansen
03-24-18, 22:44
Steel.
LookAtYourself
03-25-18, 21:11
magpul bev block
Just cranked down my first barrel nut on the Kley Zion Rod.
Wound up stripping out the POS $8 wrench/tool I got from a bargain bin somewhere.
Nonetheless, when I broke out the good wrench, it went together smoothly and left me happy. I can say that I truly enjoy this tool and am content with the price I paid for it.
ETA:
I also want to include that the batch I got my rod from, or maybe this one in particular, is perfect based on the vise cuts. I don't think they intended on people caring so much if the upper lined up at a perfect 90 degree angle. Mine does, so the first runs had issues, but it seems they listened to the consumer and fixed it. Or, I got lucky and the cuts just happen to line up.
Just cranked down my first barrel nut on the Kley Zion Rod.
Wound up stripping out the POS $8 wrench/tool I got from a bargain bin somewhere.
Nonetheless, when I broke out the good wrench, it went together smoothly and left me happy. I can say that I truly enjoy this tool and am content with the price I paid for it.
ETA:
I also want to include that the batch I got my rod from, or maybe this one in particular, is perfect based on the vise cuts. I don't think they intended on people caring so much if the upper lined up at a perfect 90 degree angle. Mine does, so the first runs had issues, but it seems they listened to the consumer and fixed it. Or, I got lucky and the cuts just happen to line up.
I bought one from Botach before they were branded Kley Zion. It lines lines the upper at 90 in the vise. I've been very happy with it.
Ned Christiansen
03-29-18, 17:27
...and, I find I do not have a scrap barrel with the FSB still pinned on. But I've tightened and loosened a good many muzzle thangs with a rod or stick or whatever through the FSB.
...and, I find I do not have a scrap barrel with the FSB still pinned on. But I've tightened and loosened a good many muzzle thangs with a rod or stick or whatever through the FSB.
Too bad.
Ultimate breakaway torque is a pretty good test for gas block security.
Ned Christiansen
03-29-18, 22:05
I'll probably run into one soon.
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