View Full Version : Back up iron sites, need opinions.
Just finished my 10.5" pistol in 5.56mm. it's mainly a range toy/bug out gun. I have an MRO mounted now, but can't decide on backups. I would like flip ups, but they don't need to spring up.i like the look of the spikes gen 2 micros, KAC, and the mbus pros. Any one have the spikes gen 2 micros? Can't seem to find to many reviews on them.
Is there anything else out there to consider?
https://imgur.com/a/8fQUR
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With a Trijicon MRO on top, BUIS aren't really even necessary.
Although they are larger, I use Troy buis and really like them. They are rugged and small enough for my purposes. I've got an Aimpoint T1 on a Larue lower 1/3 mount.
I have a set of bobro low rider BUIS which are fantastic. They do reqire tools to adjust, so that may be something to consider. They are very light weight and also sit extremely low to the rail when not in use (hence the name). The aperture size is probably between the small and large on an A2 style rear sight. Other than thoses, I'd say KAC micro's or Magpul Pro's which both seem to be solid choices.
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Troy are still my go to backups. Yes there are newer ones not he market but I still haven’t found any that I like as much as the Troy folders or fixed.
MBUS or MBUS Pro. Troys are nice too but for range guns I like the price and features of the MBUS. Serious use guns, I prefer the Pros, they're very low profile.
Boba Fett v2
03-10-18, 13:54
So which is it? A range toy or bug out gun? If it's a range toy then a set of MBUS or nothing at all would be fine, assuming it remains something you take out for fun and plinking. "Bug out" implies that this will be your go-to should you find yourself in a situation that dictates the need to move out in a hurry and there's a chance you might need to fight your way through or out of a situation, and this will be your primary weapon used to sustain yourself for the long haul. In that case, buy the best BUIS you can afford. For the record I only run KAC back-up irons, or in one case, a fixed DD front sight.
So which is it? A range toy or bug out gun? If it's a range toy then a set of MBUS or nothing at all would be fine, assuming it remains something you take out for fun and plinking. "Bug out" implies that this will be your go-to should you find yourself in a situation that dictates the need to move out in a hurry and there's a chance you might need to fight your way through or out of a situation, and this will be your primary weapon used to sustain yourself for the long haul. In that case, buy the best BUIS you can afford. For the record I only run KAC back-up irons, or in one case, a fixed DD front sight.It's my bug out gun, I just don't think I'll ever really need it for that purpose. But like the boy scouts, always be prepared. This gun will likely be secured in my truck and should the need arise, will be used to get me and mine where I need to go.
The reality of it though, is I'll use it at the club and for some training classes.
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I run KAC irons. May be pricey, but I love them. A lot of people are moving to the “you don’t need iron sights anymore” camp. I just don’t think I could bring myself to not put iron sights on my guns.
I run KAC irons. May be pricey, but I love them. A lot of people are moving to the “you don’t need iron sights anymore” camp. I just don’t think I could bring myself to not put iron sights on my guns.Yeah I'm a big believer in 2 is 1 and 1 is none. Even if you never need them it can't hurt to have them. There are just so many choices ...
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Yeah I'm a big believer in 2 is 1 and 1 is none. Even if you never need them it can't hurt to have them. There are just so many choices ...
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How many AR based guns do you have?
How many AR based guns do you have?3. I had 4 but had a catastrophic failure that trashed one. Long story.
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Don't Tread On Me
03-10-18, 15:37
OP, with the choices you listed, I'd go KAC. If that's too much coin, go with the MBUS Pros. While the Troy BUIS are robust and a quality design, I generally stay away from their products for personal reasons.
OP, with the choices you listed, I'd go KAC. If that's too much coin, go with the MBUS Pros. While the Troy BUIS are robust and a quality design, I generally stay away from their products for personal reasons.Thanks ...kac isn't out of the budget. No love for the spikes gen 2 ? I kinda like the looks of those ... Though the KAC are really nice too
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Thanks ...kac isn't out of the budget. No love for the spikes gen 2 ? I kinda like the looks of those ... Though the KAC are really nice too
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There isn’t a lot of love for spikes here in general.
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3. I had 4 but had a catastrophic failure that trashed one. Long story.
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What aiming system do you have on the other 2?
What aiming system do you have on the other 2?My 18" has gg&g flip ups and my 300blk has some cheapo Amazon shit. They were like $20 and thought I would give them a spin....the blackout is a toy anyway.
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madmax_fal
03-10-18, 16:47
MBUS or MBUS Pro. Troys are nice too but for range guns I like the price and features of the MBUS. Serious use guns, I prefer the Pros, they're very low profile.
I would agree. MBUS sights are really a great product. Mine only needed 9 clicks up after installation.
I like MBUS Pros. Have a KAC micro rear and like it ok too
A friend recently bought a set of these
https://www.griffinarmament.com/category-s/1863.htm
And foot print is similar to the Pro or Micro. Time will tell on durability, but everything seemed well made and we'll thought out.
rocket 442
03-10-18, 18:31
LWRC Shirmisher Sights! Won't have anything on my rifle that says TROY for personal reasons.
Although they are larger, I use Troy buis and really like them. They are rugged and small enough for my purposes. I've got an Aimpoint T1 on a Larue lower 1/3 mount.
^^^ This.
I like mine with the front to have the M4 style "wings" as opposed to the HK "rounded" ones.
I’ll vote for MBUS Pros... low pro and easy to zero without tools
I run KAC irons. May be pricey, but I love them. A lot of people are moving to the “you don’t need iron sights anymore” camp. I just don’t think I could bring myself to not put iron sights on my guns.
Yep. Every flattop AR I have has BUIS, even the ones with ACOGs. Irons don't fail......
noonesshowmonkey
03-10-18, 19:31
I've been behind Troy and Magpul, and honestly, I don't really notice much difference. Just get a clear front post and go bang. If you are getting serious about irons shooting, you should look into fixed sights. If I wanted metal, I'd just grab some Troys when they are on sale, or get either flavor of MBUS and be done with it.
I find the Magpul Pros to be a bit better machined than KAC with a more positive click in the up position.
If you are really serious about usable replacement SHTF BUIS then it's either Troy's that lock up or fixed like DD.
Regular MBUS have an advantage here too as they are spring loaded.
I like the Spikes given their extreme light weight.
It all depends on what exact role you think you need them for... I need them mostly for checking zeros on my Aimpoints!
Dennis.
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I'll put another vote in the Troy camp. I have a set of KAC flip ups but they sit on an SPRish build. All my carbines have Troy sighs and I couldn't be more satisfied.
MBUS pros for flip ups. DD or Scalarworks for fixed.
MBUS for a a budget range build. Aero Precision for a daily user.
Interesting how so many are hung up on the idea that their modern optic is absolutely going to fail and that they absolutely must have BUIS on their rifle. Yet, how many of these "two is one, one is none" proponents keep a spare bolt stowed in their grip?
Anybody use the bobro micro set?
I'm in the "iron sights are more tradition than they are necessary" camp. I haven't thrown away any of my Troys, but I'm not ever going to buy another set of irons. I think they're unnecessary vestiges of a completely different era of firearms concept.
...
Boba Fett v2
03-11-18, 10:38
Interesting how so many are hung up on the idea that their modern optic is absolutely going to fail and that they absolutely must have BUIS on their rifle. Yet, how many of these "two is one, one is none" proponents keep a spare bolt stowed in their grip?The way I see it, it's like relying on a GPS to not fail, but yet have no basic map reading/land navigation skills to fallback on should you find yourself LLMF. Murphy always has a vote. The added weight of a set of BUIS is negligible, they don't take up a lot of rail-estate, and while you may never use them, it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. You do you. To each their own.
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The added weight of a set of BUIS is negligible, they don't take up a lot of rail-estate, and while you may never use them, it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. You do you. To each their own.
I don't think there's a down side to having BUIS on a rifle, I just think it's a pointless expenditure of $200. I'd rather use that money to contribute toward a top quality RDS.
vicious_cb
03-11-18, 12:59
Yep. Every flattop AR I have has BUIS, even the ones with ACOGs. Irons don't fail......
I will have to disagree with you there. Irons, especially the BUIS folding type, are more prone to damage and having their zero changed far more than the quality optics out there.
The most fragile sighting system you can have are front and rear BUIS as your primary in the flipped up position. One good drop on concrete and those things are DONE at the least your zero is off. Strangely enough, people who shit on the plastic MBUS, those things survive better than any of the metal ones FYI. Anything that locks upwards is automatically ****ed in a drop. Which is why I will NEVER run Troys on any of my rifles ever again.
The added weight of a set of BUIS is negligible, they don't take up a lot of rail-estate, and while you may never use them, it's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
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So many here espouse redundancy like it is a magic talisman. I'm sure we can all agree that a broken bolt will take an AR out of action more so than an failed RDS. The added weight of a spare bolt (or even a bolt repair kit) is negligible and wont take up any real estate if stowed in your grip...yet I'd wager that hardly anyone keeps one in their rifle. Why is that?
When modern and affordable RDS featuring 50K hour constant-on battery life that are damn near bulletproof exist in today's market, BUIS are now pretty much useless.
I will have to disagree with you there. Irons, especially the BUIS folding type, are more prone to damage and having their zero changed far more than the quality optics out there.
The most fragile sighting system you can have are front and rear BUIS as your primary in the flipped up position. One good drop on concrete and those things are DONE at the least your zero is off. Strangely enough, people who shit on the plastic MBUS, those things survive better than any of the metal ones FYI. Anything that locks upwards is automatically ****ed in a drop. Which is why I will NEVER run Troys on any of my rifles ever again.
Point taken but I was mainly referring to battery/power source failure, not being physically broken (power source obviously not applicable to ACOGs, unless it's a 15+ year old Tritium failure!).
Personally I am a fan of the Troys. You can sometimes find them on sale for under $150.
theorangecat
03-11-18, 13:15
I have had cheap optics fail completely, and have also had good optics get moisture, mud or mystery crud on the glass, so I continue to do the belt & suspenders thing by insisting on optic PLUS irons... even if the irons get a bit on the minimalist side.
I use DD's fixed irons for any carbines equipped with a reflex/RDS, but recently waded into the LPVO kiddie pool and have just installed a set of MBUS Pro flip-ups (they were available right now and I got a deal... time will tell if they were the best option).
toc
3ACR_Scout
03-11-18, 13:53
I use Troys on both my personal and work rifles. I like how solid they are, and how similar they are to GI iron sights in both appearance and function (e.g. the rear large and small apertures). I use the SKD version of the rear BUIS that has the small decent pin to lock the adjustment wheel.
hotrodder636
03-11-18, 14:00
I use MBUS and KAC. Use really just means I mounted and zeroed them. I use the Aimpoint.
Can’t really give any good use details but the MBUS are quick and easy to deply and lock up. Easy to lower back down. The KAC are low profile.
Boba Fett v2
03-11-18, 18:01
So many here espouse redundancy like it is a magic talisman. I'm sure we can all agree that a broken bolt will take an AR out of action more so than an failed RDS. The added weight of a spare bolt (or even a bolt repair kit) is negligible and wont take up any real estate if stowed in your grip...yet I'd wager that hardly anyone keeps one in their rifle. Why is that?
When modern and affordable RDS featuring 50K hour constant-on battery life that are damn near bulletproof exist in today's market, BUIS are now pretty much useless.
That's a pretty bold assumption to make considering the general make-up of this group, which I'd wager a large percentage of the general population here are either current or former card-holding members of the profession of arms. And since we're making assumptions, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and assume most here are switched-on to the importance of having spare components/parts, tools or batteries readily on-hand. I also give the benefit of the doubt to RDS/optics that have proven to be very reliable in the field and that there's enough cumulative data to support it. Nevertheless, I'd caution again putting absolute faith in a single solution without having a back up plan. Like I said, to each his own.
That's a pretty bold assumption to make considering the general make-up of this group, which I'd wager a large percentage of the general population here are either current or former card-holding members of the profession of arms. And since we're making assumptions, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and assume most here are switched-on to the importance of having spare components/parts, tools or batteries readily on-hand. I also give the benefit of the doubt to RDS/optics that have proven to be very reliable in the field and that there's enough cumulative data to support it. Nevertheless, I'd caution again putting absolute faith in a single solution without having a back up plan. Like I said, to each his own.
Oh please. I guarantee you next to zero of those with redundant BUIS have actually zero'ed those sights nor do they have back up batteries for their optics...let alone a bolt repair kit stowed in their rifle.
Oh please. I guarantee you next to zero of those with redundant BUIS have actually zero'ed those sights nor do they have back up batteries for their optics...let alone a bolt repair kit stowed in their rifle.
How about we just stop all of the over generalizing BS?
TomMontana
03-11-18, 23:02
I have a MBUS pro and two sets of Troy. Cost way too much for what they are. Probably one lowest usage items on my rifles. Sighted it in and never used again.
Mr McSimon
03-12-18, 16:22
There is another point of note between the MBUS Pro and Troy folding sights, beyond the Troys locking in the up position and the lower skinnier profile of the MBUS. The rear MBUS Pro has the small aperture deployed when you flip it to the up position, where the Troy would have the larger aperture deployed initially. I personally like the lower profile of the MBUS Pro and the way they lock tight when folded down, but I prefer having the larger aperture of the Troy deployed immediately without the extra motion when flipping it up. So, my choice ends up being a Troy rear, and MBUS Pro front.
tonsofguns
03-12-18, 16:27
Kac, they are the slickest and look nice
Oh please. I guarantee you next to zero of those with redundant BUIS have actually zero'ed those sights nor do they have back up batteries for their optics...let alone a bolt repair kit stowed in their rifle.
[insert that thing about assumptions here]
:rolleyes:
On topic-
I have both Troy and MBus Pro BUIS.
Love the profile of the Pro's, but prefer the Troy.
IMHO, if I'm having an Ok Corral moment and my RDS craps out, at close range I'd need larger aperture RTFN, than the small one, and if the engagement range is beyond using the large ap, I'll probably have a second in cover to flip it over.
I currently have:
LWRC Skirmish sights (5.56 duty rifle)
Magpul MBUS pro/pro LR sights (5.56 end-of-the-world rifle)
LMT folding sights (7.62x51 long range/hunting rifle)
Magpul MBUS standard (wife's lightweight 5.56 rifle)
I have owned practically every other BUIS at some point, and no longer use them for specific reasons.
Thoughts:
I like sights that aren't likely to be knocked down by accident, and therefore prefer locking or spring assisted. I also like range adjustability, if for nothing else, because it's fun shooting far with iron sights. I like same plane dual apertures.
I do not like HK hood front sights due to the problem of front sight centering, yet two of my front sights are HK style. I do not like having only detents keeping my sights up, yet two of mine are detent only.
I honestly don't have a favorite set of what I have. Each was chosen for a specific purpose, and each fits that propose adequately. None of my BUIS have all of my favorite or preferred specifications, as no such BUIS exists.
Final thought: for the money, Magpul MBUS standard sights do almost everything right. They are probably the best all around BUIS available. Their only down-side is bulkiness and lack of range adjustability.
Note: All of my rifles have iron sights. All of my iron sights are properly zeroed. All of my optics are QD, and do get removed quite often as I like shooting with both scopes and iron sights. I own only one battery powered optic, and keep spare batteries in that rifle. All storage spaces in my rifles are filled with useful, mission critical items.
Razorblade
03-12-18, 19:33
Kac make the best BUIS hands down
KAC BUIS on carbine with MRO.
With geezer eyes I’m good for A/C hits to 200 with irons and RD.
Oh please. I guarantee you next to zero of those with redundant BUIS have actually zero'ed those sights nor do they have back up batteries for their optics...let alone a bolt repair kit stowed in their rifle.
First thing I do is zero my irons and then my optic. I also have QD mounts on my optics so I can use the irons as primary without having to fiddle **** with the optic etc if it goes down. But then again, I am slow speed, high drag Joe no-body. I do all of these things that you say most people don't (I just carry a spare BCG instead of a bolt in the grip fyi, it's easier to drop a BCG in a rifle instead of trying to un**** a carrier in the field with now suspect parts) and I am a no-body. Apply the same mindset to people in the know. That's who all the people with the rainbow colors of user names do/are and will probably continue to do it.
But, you do you and please don't generalize. Everyone has their level of comfort with their rifles.
I like MBUS Pro for flip-ups much more than the normal MBUS. For carbines with red dots, I personally prefer fixed sights (Right now I use the DD.)
Knights sights are my preferred choice
MBUS Pro as a second
MBUS as a cheap alternative
Knights sights are my preferred choice
MBUS Pro as a second
MBUS as a cheap alternative
I have MBUS on one of my SBRs. As I recall, I had to have some kind of BUIS on that rifle for a carbine course with Larry Vickers a few years ago. I don't recall anything negative about the way they performed.
IMHO, if I'm having an Ok Corral moment and my RDS craps out, at close range I'd need larger aperture RTFN, than the small one, and if the engagement range is beyond using the large ap, I'll probably have a second in cover to flip it over.
Been pondering that statement and as a result am ordering an XS CSAT rear sight for the fixed Troy Battle Sight rear on my M4ish upper. Seems to me the combination of the notch and the small aperture might be fun to do some experimenting.
I'm a fan of etched reticle optics, aside from the fact that they are clear and red dots blossom due to my slight astigmatism, if the electronics poop you still have the etched reticle. To my knowledge, the only thing that would take the reticle out of play would be a tube hit.
Pontificating further, the OK Corral scenario brings a couple of thoughts to mind:
Would you have time to flip two sights up in such a close range furball? Might be better to run a lower third co-witness with fixed sights. Which is what I do on the fixed sight upper I use.
You might also want to see how you hit at 25 and in with the RDS turned off, just using the tube for alingment.
Just spitballing.
CrowCommand
03-13-18, 16:43
^ Like. Running a fixed rear DD on my carbine with FSP and Aimpoint PRO. Lower 1/3. Pretty happy with it, but interested to run RD malfunction drills as per 26 Inf mentioned...
Got a Magpul buis on my new 6720, pleasently surprised at how good they work..... Have a DD fixed on my other rifle
vicious_cb
03-13-18, 19:54
Its 2018, why are people still arguing about iron sights?
Its 2018, why are people still arguing about iron sights?
Tradition. Nostalgia.
Its 2018, why are people still arguing about iron sights?Some people just like to watch the world burn.
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Hammer_Man
03-13-18, 22:16
I have used KAC, Matech, and Troy. I like the Troys because they lock in place, are relatively affordable, and are very nicely built. However, the front sight post is pretty thick (mine has the tritium insert) so it doesn't give me the best sight picture, and the rear sight is not adjustable for elevation. The KAC folding sights seem pretty tough, and I like the fact that the rear is adjustable for elevation. The front sight post is nice and skinny, so I have a pretty clear sight picture once I put my eyeball behind them. The downside to KAC is they are expensive, and do not lock in place once you fold them up. The Matech rear sight is what my assigned weapon came with, and so I chose to put one on one of my builds. I like the fact that you can adjust for elevation, and it is super easy to deploy. The downside is that it doesn't lock in the up position, and although I have yet to break either of mine, there seems to be a few stories floating around the interwebs about them breaking. Of the three brands I prefer the KACs the most.
Oh please. I guarantee you next to zero of those with redundant BUIS have actually zero'ed those sights nor do they have back up batteries for their optics...let alone a bolt repair kit stowed in their rifle.
I shoot with my KAC micros quite a lot. Not that I hate the Z8i, I just enjoy the simplicity and low weight. The Z8i does have a back up battery in one of the caps, but my backup bolt is in my covert rifle case, not stowed in the rifle.
Been pondering that statement and as a result am ordering an XS CSAT rear sight for the fixed Troy Battle Sight rear on my M4ish upper. Seems to me the combination of the notch and the small aperture might be fun to do some experimenting.
I'm a fan of etched reticle optics, aside from the fact that they are clear and red dots blossom due to my slight astigmatism, if the electronics poop you still have the etched reticle. To my knowledge, the only thing that would take the reticle out of play would be a tube hit.
Pontificating further, the OK Corral scenario brings a couple of thoughts to mind:
Would you have time to flip two sights up in such a close range furball? Might be better to run a lower third co-witness with fixed sights. Which is what I do on the fixed sight upper I use.
You might also want to see how you hit at 25 and in with the RDS turned off, just using the tube for alingment.
Just spitballing.
Yeah, I mean... I'm not saying my reasoning is perfect under all situations, but just why I like irons that "default" to the large aperture vs the small one.
My "go to" rifle has a fixed FSB so, if it's *that* close that I don't have a second to pop the rear sight up, I'm not completely screwed.
I wanted to put a DD front sight on the pistol I'm still playing with, but snag considerations when drawing from a bag then becomes sort of a thing...it has a visible laser to mitigate this for now. We'll see how things go long term with that....
Its 2018, why are people still arguing about iron sights?
I think a lot of folks understand that electronics can fail - does anyone sell RDS's with a forever, we will replace it no matter what guarantee?
Has there never been an EOTech or an Aimpoint destroyed by a piece of shrapnel?
Those are things folks worry about in their SHTF HD or EOTW scenarios.
As a shooter I don't care one way or the other, the M4ish that I talked about in an earlier post has an optic on it because I had one sitting in the little safe. I most often take it to the range with irons, I have other rifles that I shot more often, some with BUIS, more without.
I mentioned what I mentioned because I was trying to be constructive and add to the thread.
Hammer_Man
03-13-18, 22:47
I think a lot of folks understand that electronics can fail
I couldn't agree more. My thinking is that electronic sights, regardless of who makes them, can fail. Also, I would think a quality set of irons would be less susceptible to zero shift due to temperature variations. I may be wrong about that, but in the end I like the redundancy of having both an electronic sight (or magnified optic), and a set of irons in case something went wrong with my primary sighting system.
vicious_cb
03-13-18, 23:50
I think a lot of folks understand that electronics can fail - does anyone sell RDS's with a forever, we will replace it no matter what guarantee?
Has there never been an EOTech or an Aimpoint destroyed by a piece of shrapnel?
Those are things folks worry about in their SHTF HD or EOTW scenarios.
As a shooter I don't care one way or the other, the M4ish that I talked about in an earlier post has an optic on it because I had one sitting in the little safe. I most often take it to the range with irons, I have other rifles that I shot more often, some with BUIS, more without.
I mentioned what I mentioned because I was trying to be constructive and add to the thread.
Literally anything can fail...so whats the point on espousing importance of running a BUIS? Ive had what many consider a top tier BUIS fail when all it did was sit on top my rifle folded. Flipped it up one day and it wouldn't stay up like it had erectile dysfunction. Ive never had any of my aimpoints fail and they probably take more impact than my folded irons ever did.
People in this thread keep talking like irons are some infallible sighting system when nothing can be further from the truth. And the truth ****ing hurts, my aimpoint can withstand far more abuse than any folding BUIS ever will.
Run a BUIS or dont run a BUIS. In the end it doesnt really matter, its just minutiae that people waste their time talking about. And its not even fun minutiae like what HD ammo should I buy.
There are much more trivial subject that get discussed than the use or lack of BUIS.
We ARE in the age of having so many options for quality optics that it’s near crazy.
The likelihood of a quality optic failing is small. But, ANYTHING can fail.
There is no wrong answer on this topic,.......only opinions.
Knights sights are my preferred choice
MBUS Pro as a second
MBUS as a cheap alternative
Plus 1 here
Literally anything can fail...so whats the point on espousing importance of running a BUIS? Ive had what many consider a top tier BUIS fail when all it did was sit on top my rifle folded. Flipped it up one day and it wouldn't stay up like it had erectile dysfunction. Ive never had any of my aimpoints fail and they probably take more impact than my folded irons ever did.
People in this thread keep talking like irons are some infallible sighting system when nothing can be further from the truth. And the truth ****ing hurts, my aimpoint can withstand far more abuse than any folding BUIS ever will.
Run a BUIS or dont run a BUIS. In the end it doesnt really matter, its just minutiae that people waste their time talking about. And its not even fun minutiae like what HD ammo should I buy.
Exactly. So, at the risk of being accused of generalizing again, iron sights are a hold-over from a bygone era. Mark my words: in twenty years, iron sights (and BUIS in particular) will fade out of existance. But at the present, BUIS are the gun world's security blanket....unnecessary and carried only because of fear, but eventually outgrown. The gun community is some of the most change-resistant folks that I have ever met.
I have a set of Troys but I’ll buy no more. They hired Jody Weis an anti gun former Chicago cop. They did get rid of him, but only after they defended him and lied about Their relationship to their sister company. Then they hired Dale Monroe of Ruby Ridge fame.
Now DD can eat a bowl of alphabet soup and choke on the D too. Marty Daniel came out in support of “Fix the NICS” yesterday.
Marty Daniel has since publicly seen the light and retracted his support of FIXNCIS.
Marty Daniel has since publicly seen the light and retracted his support of FIXNCIS.
Because he had to. What was he thinking unless he actually thinks it’s a good idea?
Exactly. So, at the risk of being accused of generalizing again, iron sights are a hold-over from a bygone era. Mark my words: in twenty years, iron sights (and BUIS in particular) will fade out of existance. But at the present, BUIS are the gun world's security blanket....unnecessary and carried only because of fear, but eventually outgrown. The gun community is some of the most change-resistant folks that I have ever met.
The most commonly used rifle in this country was designed more than 60 years ago. Just sayin’
Her wasn't thinking. It was a knee jerk reaction. Which is why most 2A supporters need to STFU and not rush to judgment after a mass shooting for at least three weeks to let the dust settle in order that level heads prevail.
Don't Tread On Me
03-14-18, 08:32
Exactly. So, at the risk of being accused of generalizing again, iron sights are a hold-over from a bygone era. Mark my words: in twenty years, iron sights (and BUIS in particular) will fade out of existance. But at the present, BUIS are the gun world's security blanket....unnecessary and carried only because of fear, but eventually outgrown. The gun community is some of the most change-resistant folks that I have ever met.
Back on topic, as far as BUIS are concerned, I think we need to understand that not all firearms are equipped with optics. There are certain firearms, that decades ago whilst the world was in the midst of all out war, that were being retrofitted with optics in order to fill a niche on the battlefield. These same firearms are from an era when optics were not a thing. Nowadays, these same rifles are available on the civilian market with the standard version being more abundant and readily available and the models fitted with optics more of a rarity and commanding a premium. In that same vain, I'm led to believe that there will always be a place for iron sights. Yes, more and more designs are coming forward to allow for the use of optics. But when we look at optics we are willing to stake our lives on, the list is generally fairly short and fairly expensive when compared with the plethora of options available. Not everyone has that kind of scratch to outfit half a dozen AR's with Aimpoints, Kahles, etc.
Slightly off topic, that does not even take into consideration those with M1 Garands in their collection, or old bolt guns that would actually decrease in value if the receiver were drilled and tapped. In those instances, optics become a moot point and irons rule the day. I guess my point is, even if we move away from them and the next generation of rifles have integrated optics and a total lack of BUIS, knowing how to properly use irons will still be pertinent. It falls within the same lines of using a GPS because it is so much more simpler. But that doesn't mean I don't know how to use a compass or carry it as a backup measure in case the GPS goes to shit, gets smashed on a rock after a fall, etc.
Not everyone has that kind of scratch to outfit half a dozen AR's with Aimpoints, Kahles, etc.
In this day and age, extremely rugged and reliable...and reasonably priced...optics are readily available. Aimpoint is no longer the only game in town. For example, there is the Primary Arm MD-RB-AD with it's 50k hour battery life. It costs less than a set of BUIS from KAC or Troy. So there goes that argument.
Don't Tread On Me
03-14-18, 09:06
Touché. I have never used a Primary Arms optic so cannot speak to their reliability, but what if it fails? Again, the best parallel I can offer is the compass and GPS. Why even bother with the compass when the GPS is so much easier and convenient?
wetidlerjr
03-14-18, 09:30
Back on topic, as far as BUIS are concerned, I think we need to understand that not all firearms are equipped with optics....Not everyone has that kind of scratch to outfit half a dozen AR's with Aimpoints, Kahles, etc.
Exactly! I'm over 70 and I'm not "change resistant". I just like backups when things fail and EVERYTHING CAN AND WILL fail at one time or another. Don't like BUIS then don't buy them but saying that my or anyone's use of them makes me "change resistant" is ridiculous.
Exactly! I'm over 70 and I'm not "change resistant". I just like backups when things fail and EVERYTHING CAN AND WILL fail at one time or another. Don't like BUIS then don't buy them but saying that my or anyone's use of them makes me "change resistant" is ridiculous.
Okay, I refer back to my previous observation: why don't all those shooters who contend that BUIS are a necessity ("because everything can and will fail") carry a spare bolt on their AR's?
Don't Tread On Me
03-14-18, 09:49
As others have pointed out, we do not know how many actually do. I keep a host of spare parts on hand, everything from gas rings to complete BCG's and in the odd event that an FCG shits the bed, one of those, too. It sounds silly yes, but I have seen the hammer from an ALG trigger literally break. Mind you it was one of their AK triggers, but it's probably something that most people wouldn't think could happen, right? This is not TOS. Our concerns aren't so much who we should send our guns to for a photoshoot session to plaster on the internet, or what the latest clone fad is. I'm relatively new here but would hazard to say that most individuals on this board are pretty switched on. We worry more about performance of our tools and demand that we ourselves perform to a certain standard. I know at least I do.
I keep a host of spare parts on hand, everything from gas rings to complete BCG's and in the odd event that an FCG shits the bed, one of those, too.
Really? You keep all those spare parts on your rifle in case they fail? That's pretty amazing.
Literally anything can fail...so whats the point on espousing importance of running a BUIS? Ive had what many consider a top tier BUIS fail when all it did was sit on top my rifle folded. Flipped it up one day and it wouldn't stay up like it had erectile dysfunction. Ive never had any of my aimpoints fail and they probably take more impact than my folded irons ever did.
People in this thread keep talking like irons are some infallible sighting system when nothing can be further from the truth. And the truth ****ing hurts, my aimpoint can withstand far more abuse than any folding BUIS ever will.
I somewhat see your point. If you think of the BUIS as a reserve parachute, it is insurance, not really likely to be needed (unless you trash pack) and not infallible, sometimes reserves don't work. But having one gives you at least a shot at success.
I consider fixed sights on a rifle equipped with an optic as BUIS, I don't know if that is a terminology difference which is an issue. They are certainly robust.
I currently have 11 AR's in the safes, 3 have BUIS, 2 have fixed sights, 4 have only optics of some sort, and two are sightless - it is more fun to build them than it is to buy optics. The rifle I shoot the most has ARMS 40L's on it, the others are polymer - magpul and ARMS 71's. The ARMS 71 polymers are the last ones I purchased. They are on my wife's rifle and I probably won'y buy any more flip ups for my rifles.
Why? Because I don't carry or train with a rifle for duty use any longer, and I don't envision any scenarios where they would be a life-or-death item on my rifles. Much the same reason I don't store/carry back-up batteries, bolts, etc. on my rifles. If it breaks I go back to the truck, get another one and fix the broken one when I get home.
Different folks have different perspectives.
Run a BUIS or dont run a BUIS. In the end it doesnt really matter, its just minutiae that people waste their time talking about. And its not even fun minutiae like what HD ammo should I buy.
You have a point, although the ammo discussions don't turn my crank, I just default to Hornady TAP.
Thanks for the reply.
As an aside, there is still one final argument no optic can argue away, and that is, the weather gets a vote too.
Many of the budget optics, while "getting there" in battery life, durability, and optical quality, still aren't 100% weatherproof, and beyond that, in certain weather conditions optics in general can become difficult or impossible to use.
If you're using your gun 100% as a "sunny day" range gun or indoor shooter only, sure rock whatever you want.
For those who either must use their rifles in less satisfactory conditions, or forsee a possibility where it may happen, a couple ounces of safety blanket is NOT enough to quibble over leaving on...
It hasn't got anything to do with being "change resistant", it's about not being caught with your pants down... the same reason most here own a rifle in the first place...
And who puts a spare bolt and accessories on their gun anyway? That shit goes in your GP pouch, range bag or assault pack...
Okay, I refer back to my previous observation: why don't all those shooters who contend that BUIS are a necessity ("because everything can and will fail") carry a spare bolt on their AR's?
All it takes is dropping your your gun and some bad luck to destroy an optic. Dont have buis, you’re hunt is done.
Yea, a spare bolt is good to have as well- but was not the purpose of the thread iirc. Id advocate both, not neither.
....and I probably won'y buy any more flip ups for my rifles.Why? Because I don't carry or train with a rifle for duty use any longer, and I don't envision any scenarios where they would be a life-or-death item on my rifles. Much the same reason I don't store/carry back-up batteries, bolts, etc. on my rifles. If it breaks I go back to the truck, get another one and fix the broken one when I get home.
Different folks have different perspectives.
Yes, exactly. "The mission drives the gear". Some folks live their lives in some part based on a SHTF/EOWTWAKI fantasy. If that is one's mindset, I can certainly understand the pressing belief in a need for redundancy.
As an aside, there is still one final argument no optic can argue away, and that is, the weather gets a vote too.
Many of the budget optics, while "getting there" in battery life, durability, and optical quality, still aren't 100% weatherproof, and beyond that, in certain weather conditions optics in general can become difficult or impossible to use.
If you're using your gun 100% as a "sunny day" range gun or indoor shooter only, sure rock whatever you want.
For those who either must use their rifles in less satisfactory conditions, or forsee a possibility where it may happen, a couple ounces of safety blanket is NOT enough to quibble over leaving on...
It hasn't got anything to do with being "change resistant", it's about not being caught with your pants down... the same reason most here own a rifle in the first place...
And who puts a spare bolt and accessories on their gun anyway? That shit goes in your GP pouch, range bag or assault pack...
I am not a "sunny day" range shooter. I have shot on many occasions in very inclement weather, including snow and heavy rain, using carbines equipped exclusively with optics.
Never once did I NOT get a sight picture on a target using an optic because of bad weather. I shot one particular course of fire where I ended up covered head to toe in mud and debris using a carbine equipped with a Leupold DDP. Guess what? That little optic gave me ZERO issues. The only problems I actually experienced was with my eye pro. In fact, I have since removed my Aimpoint H1 on my go-to carbine in favor of the DPP. It performed that well.
So, I imaging weather that is severe enough to down either of these two optics would also down irons.
https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/12/63/91/01/20171214.jpg
Mr McSimon
03-14-18, 13:39
I'm sure everybody arguing that BUIS are just extra fluff that aren't really needed don't bother to carry jumper cables around in their car either. I mean, it's 2018, jumper cables are so 20th century. So many things could fail, why focus on just the battery? Jumper cables must be worthless to have and you must be a silly carry over from a bygone era if you have some in your trunk. :rolleyes:
I am not a "sunny day" range shooter. I have shot on many occasions in very inclement weather, including snow and heavy rain, using carbines equipped exclusively with optics.
Never once did I NOT get a sight picture on a target using an optic because of bad weather. I shot one particular course of fire where I ended up covered head to toe in mud and debris using a carbine equipped with a Leupold DDP. Guess what? That little optic gave me ZERO issues. The only problems I actually experienced was with my eye pro. In fact, I have since removed my Aimpoint H1 on my go-to carbine in favor of the DPP. It performed that well.
So, I imaging weather that is severe enough to down either of these two optics would also down irons.
https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/12/63/91/01/20171214.jpg
If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread, and the topic seems to go against your preference/opinion, why don't you just leave it alone?
1. Many readily available modern optics are rugged and reliable
2. BUIS are not immune to failure
3. Modern optics can be had for less than many BUIS
4. BUIS are unnecessary
...nothing I have posted has been constructive? Well damn.
Your initial post sure, but now you're just arguing with ppl that disagree. You made valid points, but now you're just detracting from them with your aggressive and emotional responses to others.
I welcome disagreement, especially if they are well reasoned and thought out counterpoints. So far, those have been few and far between.
noonesshowmonkey
03-14-18, 13:59
Are we really on Page 10 of To Iron Sight or Not To Iron Sight, That Is The Question (which wasn't the question asked by the OP in any way...)?
Troy, MBUS, KAC, pick your flavor. Hell, get NCStar or KleyZion for all I give a shit. This thread was done pages ago.
Are we really on Page 10 of To Iron Sight or Not To Iron Sight, That Is The Question (which wasn't the question asked by the OP in any way...)?
Troy, MBUS, KAC, pick your flavor. Hell, get NCStar or KleyZion for all I give a shit. This thread was done pages ago.
Because of posts similar to yours, yes, it is 10 pages. And the thread's title specifically asks for "opinions".
The way I see it, it's like relying on a GPS to not fail, but yet have no basic map reading/land navigation skills to fallback on should you find yourself LLMF. Murphy always has a vote. The added weight of a set of BUIS is negligible, they don't take up a lot of rail-estate, and while you may never use them, it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. You do you. To each their own.
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My Aimpoint is far more reliable than my GPS.
Mr McSimon
03-14-18, 14:13
I welcome disagreement, especially if they are well reasoned and thought out counterpoints. So far, those have been few and far between.
Not to pile on, but the most reasoned and thought out argument has been made a couple times now. Be prepared. The motto of the Boy Scouts, and the best advice you'll ever hear. It's pretty much as simple as that. If you don't want to prepare yourself for the possibility of shooting with irons, either for fun or necessity, then that's your call.
Are we really on Page 10 of To Iron Sight or Not To Iron Sight, That Is The Question (which wasn't the question asked by the OP in any way...)?
Troy, MBUS, KAC, pick your flavor. Hell, get NCStar or KleyZion for all I give a shit. This thread was done pages ago.Thanx, I only started this tread to get a few opinions on the irons I was considering. Not weather I should get them or not, as that decision was already made.
Really people, this ship is way off course.
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Not to pile on, but the most reasoned and thought out argument has been made a couple times now. Be prepared.
I have stipulated that point. But those same people on this thread who espouse the "BE PREPARED!" mantra seemingly disregard the highest stress item found on their rifle. The bolt. I contend that a bolt failure is more dire than an optic failure...and that any serious rifleman should have a rudimentary repair kit IN THEIR RIFLE. Personally, I have seen dozens more stoppages caused by a bolt failure than an optic failure. I would wager virtually 99% of the respondents to this thread who swear by BUIS do not have a bolt repair kit or spare firing pin shoved into their grip. And I do not mean stowed in their possibles bag.
3ACR_Scout
03-14-18, 15:11
Okay, I refer back to my previous observation: why don't all those shooters who contend that BUIS are a necessity ("because everything can and will fail") carry a spare bolt on their AR's?
I’m having a hard time envisioning the scenario that you’re preparing for. Is it the end of the world as we know it, and you’re ducking into an empty ruin of a building to dissemble your rifle and replace the bolt after somehow fleeing from a firefight when your weapon went down? Is it that you just want to have the spare bolt in your rifle when it goes down at the range? I’m personally not going to disassemble my BCG in the middle of a fight to try to fix the bolt (if I can identify that it’s the problem). That’s what I carry a sidearm for, which isn't much, but it’s better than a broken rifle. If I have the option, I’ll carry a whole spare BCG (in my assault pack, go bag, or range bag) because I can swap that it in about 1/10 of the time it would take me to change the bolt itself. I’ve spent 18 years in the Army. My command sergeant major has been an infantryman for 23 years. My XO was in the 75th Ranger Regiment. None of us have ever seen or heard of a bolt breaking. Not that it doesn’t happen, but it’s apparently not very common. On the other hand, we’ve all seen optics get fogged or cracked, covered with mud, or even knocked off the rifle from impacting something (possibly because the Soldier didn’t have it properly secured). Some people will even remove their optic and switch to irons when going into a close quarters situation where something like an ACOG isn’t the best thing to have. Some people are also more accurate (or comfortable) at long range with irons than a red dot. In the field, the component of the rifle that’s under the most stress is a thing that’s hanging on the rifle and likely to bump into something.
yeah...never mind
bottom line...Troy, MBUS Pro, MBUS, or nothing. All personal preference based on your needs, real or perceived. All good. IMHO, if you believe you need BUIS, MBUS is cost-effective and almost certainly "good enough" for civilian riflemen.
yeah...never mind
bottom line...Troy, MBUS Pro, MBUS, or nothing. All personal preference based on your needs, real or perceived. All good. IMHO, if you believe you need BUIS, MBUS is cost-effective and almost certainly "good enough" for civilian riflemen.
I agree with this. IIRC I paid 270ish for my set of ARMS 40's. Never again. I do like the ARMS 71's which is their polymer copy of the 40L's with a different release. They are on my wife's rifle, and while I shoot it more than she does I haven't put them to much use - I zeroed them for her to get a starting point for her zero.
Achilles11B
03-14-18, 17:03
Thanx, I only started this tread to get a few opinions on the irons I was considering. Not weather I should get them or not, as that decision was already made.
Really people, this ship is way off course.
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For what it all worth, I’m a fan of the regular-guy Magpul BUIS system. They’re inexpensive and no, they’re not exactly KAC but they’ll get the job done.
The AR I use for what hours bump in the night has a short barrel. There is room for either a weapon light, or a front sight. It has a weapon light. In the grand scheme of things, BUIS are low on my list of priorities.
I don't care for the plastic Magpul BUIS. I know their primary mission is to be deployed when the optic goes down and usually at short range, but the set I had would not hold zero. The rear BUIS I like is the KAC 200/600 flip up.
I am not a "sunny day" range shooter. I have shot on many occasions in very inclement weather, including snow and heavy rain, using carbines equipped exclusively with optics.
Never once did I NOT get a sight picture on a target using an optic because of bad weather. I shot one particular course of fire where I ended up covered head to toe in mud and debris using a carbine equipped with a Leupold DDP. Guess what? That little optic gave me ZERO issues. The only problems I actually experienced was with my eye pro. In fact, I have since removed my Aimpoint H1 on my go-to carbine in favor of the DPP. It performed that well.
So, I imaging weather that is severe enough to down either of these two optics would also down irons.
....
Well, to be fair, I wasn't trying to single you out specifically with the "sunny day" comment, but it's good to hear that optic is working out for you- it's actually something I was considering for another build.
On the flip side, I have seen, personally, budget optics poo out in far less severe weather/use than you mentioned. To be fair, your Leupold Deltapoint is a $300-something dollar optic (pre-mount costs), that IMHO had damn well better perform being in the price bracket of a PRO.... a far cry from the $150 PA/Holosun you mentioned previously as trustworthy enough to run standalone.
My issue is NOT with the idea that optics can be run effectively without backup sights- clearly there are plenty of folks doing so.
My issue is the fact that 1) given a few ounces of BUIS won't change the weight or balance of a rifle in any significant way, I see no reason to promote not having them when a basic MBUS set can be had for under $100. One does not need to use "SHTF" or some other fantastical situation to see the benefits of being able to continue using your firearm effectively if there's an optic failure.
And 2) most people running standalone optics and having success *beyond* sunny day range shooters, are using decent optics- Acogs, Aimpoints, mid/high-end variables, etc etc- not the "budget clones of better optics".... The cheaper one goes with their optics, the higher the likelihood of needing backups, in which case deliberately choosing to leave them off (or not just buying a better optic to start with) is a poor choice.
That's all I'm saying- the idea of standalone optics isn't "wrong", it's just not right to make a blanket application of it to all optics and situations, any more than it would be for me to demand everyone mount BUIS....
vicious_cb
03-16-18, 15:41
Well, to be fair, I wasn't trying to single you out specifically with the "sunny day" comment, but it's good to hear that optic is working out for you- it's actually something I was considering for another build.
On the flip side, I have seen, personally, budget optics poo out in far less severe weather/use than you mentioned. To be fair, your Leupold Deltapoint is a $300-something dollar optic (pre-mount costs), that IMHO had damn well better perform being in the price bracket of a PRO.... a far cry from the $150 PA/Holosun you mentioned previously as trustworthy enough to run standalone.
My issue is NOT with the idea that optics can be run effectively without backup sights- clearly there are plenty of folks doing so.
My issue is the fact that 1) given a few ounces of BUIS won't change the weight or balance of a rifle in any significant way, I see no reason to promote not having them when a basic MBUS set can be had for under $100. One does not need to use "SHTF" or some other fantastical situation to see the benefits of being able to continue using your firearm effectively if there's an optic failure.
And 2) most people running standalone optics and having success *beyond* sunny day range shooters, are using decent optics- Acogs, Aimpoints, mid/high-end variables, etc etc- not the "budget clones of better optics".... The cheaper one goes with their optics, the higher the likelihood of needing backups, in which case deliberately choosing to leave them off (or not just buying a better optic to start with) is a poor choice.
That's all I'm saying- the idea of standalone optics isn't "wrong", it's just not right to make a blanket application of it to all optics and situations, any more than it would be for me to demand everyone mount BUIS....
No one is demanding anyone do anything. The idea that gets thrown around here and in other gun forums is that "Not having a BUIS on your rifle will get you killed on the streets!" mentality, which is just false.
I use and have used different "optics" and for ME, use fixed FSB and either Magpul Pro or Troy Fixed depending on application. I have seen some awesome guys and gals use ONLY optics or ONLY irons. Whatever. If you worry about optic failure, you probably need different optics but I use irons too anyway. :) YMMV
556BlackRifle
03-17-18, 11:02
I mostly use red dot, holo or scopes on my ARs and only practice with BUIS enough to maintain some level of proficiency just in case they're ever needed. That said, I have a few different types of BUIS. Magpul (polymer) BUIS and (metal) Pro, Troy BS, DD Fixed rear and Matech BUIS both used with F marked FSB, and KAC Micros. In my experience, the inexpensive Magpul BUIS do a great job. I find them to be accurate and reliable. At 300M+ KAC for sure. (I haven't tried my Matech's out that far yet, so no comment at this point.)
sasquatchoslav
03-17-18, 18:48
I can't add anything to the why or should topic, but after what I put my 5.56 ranch rifle through with MBUSs the past several years I'd not hesitate to use them in any situation. Never loose never lost zero can't imagine being less kind to a rifle than I have this one.
No one is demanding anyone do anything. The idea that gets thrown around here and in other gun forums is that "Not having a BUIS on your rifle will get you killed on the streets!" mentality, which is just false.
EXACTLY.
I have a hard time understanding shooters that stroll up to the firing line with a $150 reddot as their primary sighting system on their rifle that also wears $250+ worth of BUIS. Get a solid optic and call it a day.
EXACTLY.
I have a hard time understanding shooters that stroll up to the firing line with a $150 reddot as their primary sighting system on their rifle that also wears $250+ worth of BUIS. Get a solid optic and call it a day.
I'm skeptical of any $150 RDS. I'd take that $250 I would have spent on BUIS and add it to the $150 I would have spent on a Chinese import and buy an Aimpoint PRO.
I'm skeptical of any $150 RDS. I'd take that $250 I would have spent on BUIS and add it to the $150 I would have spent on a Chinese import and buy an Aimpoint PRO.
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
"Might" being the operative word. Maybe someday the Primary Arms offering will prove itself to the same extent that Aimpoint has. That's the point, someday, that I'd consider going that route. If it's the only sighting system on my rifle, I want it to be one of proven reliability and durability. The fact that Primary Arms stands behind it with a lifetime warranty could just as likely be a business decision rather than one that actually reflects the durability of the optic. If it costs them $50 to import from China and they sell it for $150, they can afford to offer a lifetime warranty.
For me, cost isn't the consideration. Reliability is.
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
I have this RDS and so far, it's been a good value. I would not use it in lieu of an Aimpoint, but it's a good choice for a secondary rifle.
"Might" being the operative word. Maybe someday the Primary Arms offering will prove itself to the same extent that Aimpoint has. That's the point, someday, that I'd consider going that route. If it's the only sighting system on my rifle, I want it to be one of proven reliability and durability. The fact that Primary Arms stands behind it with a lifetime warranty could just as likely be a business decision rather than one that actually reflects the durability of the optic. If it costs them $50 to import from China and they sell it for $150, they can afford to offer a lifetime warranty.
For me, cost isn't the consideration. Reliability is.
Yeah, and Springfield Armory has an "awesome" warranty and customer service for their M1A's too. :rolleyes:
I agree, buy a quality RDS and be done with it.
titsonritz
03-18-18, 23:20
I like MBUS Pros when it come to back up sights for their very small profile.
titsonritz
03-18-18, 23:23
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
I'd put one on my 10/22, not on my ARs.
i'd say for a range toy/bug out, i'd put magpul mbus gen2 (yes, the polymer ones). I'd recommend Troy, DD fixed, LWRC skirmish but considering price, it doesn't really fit the "range toy" aspect of your gun.
So why the magpul mbus gen2? Because they're on the cheap side (range toy), and I read about a buis drop test where an AR was dropped with buis hitting the ground first, and magpul mbus gen2 were the best performer (bug out). Quick google search for buis drop test will get you the article
Troy's have never failed me or bent on me. Magpul MBUS 2's would be my second choice as they have also proven to be very reliable for me personally.
Cant go wrong with the MBUS Pros. You can find them pretty cheap if you shop around.
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
I have this red dot and it works perfectly, I back it up with a fsb and KAC micro rear sight.
I have a Aimpoint PRO, Trijicon MRO, and a Leopold for Red Dots. I have Aero Precision, Midwest Industries, and Diamondhead for Irons. I don't feel I need to back up my RDS, but I have been shamed into doing it.
I did read thru the entire thread and did not see MI or Diamondhead mention, but I could have easily missed them. If no one likes them that's okay too. I do.
Mr McSimon
03-24-18, 01:12
I have a Aimpoint PRO, Trijicon MRO, and a Leopold for Red Dots. I have Aero Precision, Midwest Industries, and Diamondhead for Irons. I don't feel I need to back up my RDS, but I have been shamed into doing it.
I did read thru the entire thread and did not see MI or Diamondhead mention, but I could have easily missed them. If no one likes them that's okay too. I do.
I was eyballing a Diamonhead rear sight real close before deciding on Troy. I like the way you can choose which aperture is immediately deployed when you flip it up.
I was eyballing a Diamonhead rear sight real close before deciding on Troy. I like the way you can choose which aperture is immediately deployed when you flip it up.
I found it slightly quicker to acquire sight alignment on target with the Diamondhead, for me anyway, but they seem bulkier than others. Still I am partial to them.
Magpul or Troy here.
I was in a carbine class last year and my optic mount loosened up and started wobbling. (A brand mentioned 1000x already where the optic comes with the mount from the factory)
I switched to the backups and was able to finish the drill.
Nobody is psychic no optic is perfect. Always have some kind of buis.
Magpul or Troy here.
I was in a carbine class last year and my optic mount loosened up and started wobbling. (A brand mentioned 1000x already where the optic comes with the mount from the factory)
I switched to the backups and was able to finish the drill.
Nobody is psychic no optic is perfect. Always have some kind of buis.Whereas I would have just stepped off the line, gone back to the fiddle table and reinstalled my optic.
Whereas I would have just stepped off the line, gone back to the fiddle table and reinstalled my optic.
So you would have worked a gun at a table up range while everyone else was down range?
Boba Fett v2
03-24-18, 10:01
Whereas I would have just stepped off the line, gone back to the fiddle table and reinstalled my optic.And in situations where some of us spend/spent time on a two way range and not afforded such luxury?
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So you would have worked a gun at a table up range while everyone else was down range?
Yes. For the 60 seconds it would take me to re-tighten my Aimpoint PRO.
And in situations where some of us spend/spent time on a two way range and not afforded such luxury?
You, in the course of your daily life, may be faced with having to defend your life with your rifle on a two-way range. The chances that that would ever be part of my life are vanishingly small.
I don't know how you address your perception of your daily risk - it doesn't affect me. If a gunfight with your rifle is a realistic possibility in your world then I certainly agree that redundancy is prudent and would recommend BUIS to you. I live a much less dangerous life and for me BUIS is an unnecessary complication.
..
Yes. For the 60 seconds it would take me to re-tighten my Aimpoint PRO.
You must train with Voda. I can't imagine anyone else allowing someone to muzzle a class like that.
You must train with Voda. I can't imagine anyone else allowing someone to muzzle a class like that.
Apparently you aren't aware of the concept or reason for a fiddle table at firearms training courses.
Whereas I would have just stepped off the line, gone back to the fiddle table and reinstalled my optic.
Cracks me up how someone who rolls their eyes at non pinned gas blocks could find BUIS unnecessary.
Cracks me up how someone who rolls their eyes at non pinned gas blocks could find BUIS unnecessary.
Pinning a gas block takes about 5 minutes with a drill press and costs nothing. And when I shoot my glued-on gas block off in a course...the gun doesn't shoot and I have to disassemble it to re-glue it back on. As opposed just slapping the optic back on and giving that big-ass PRO knob a twist.
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 12:18
So true! LOLOLOLOLOL!
Cracks me up how someone who rolls their eyes at non pinned gas blocks could find BUIS unnecessary.
Pinning a gas block takes about 5 minutes with a drill press and costs nothing. And when I shoot my glued-on gas block off in a course...the gun doesn't shoot and I have to disassemble it to re-glue it back on. As opposed just slapping the optic back on and giving that big-ass PRO knob a twist.
Tracking, you’re a guncamp hobbyist who can’t figure out loctite and doesn’t understand how the tempo of a gunfight works.
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 12:28
T-time out g-guys, muh optic went down.
CEASE
E
A
S
E
FIRE
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R
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Tracking, you’re a guncamp hobbyist who can’t forget out loctite and doesn’t understand how the tempo of a gunfight works.
Tracking, you’re a guncamp hobbyist who can’t figure out loctite and doesn’t understand how the tempo of a gunfight works.
That would be an important observation if I ever had to worry about being in a gunfight with my rifle. That is not one of my fantasies. YMMV.
Cracks me up how someone who rolls their eyes at non pinned gas blocks could find BUIS unnecessary.
Apparently you are active component, and as such I totally agree with your viewpoint on BUIS.
Perhaps you need to consider different perspectives. Some folks like shooting in the same way others like golf or fishing. And some folks like cosplay, running around pretending to be in the Army. I get that, some of the best times of my life were in the service, but, you know, I got out....
If your thoughts are not that you will be likely to use your rifle to save your family, is it unreasonable to trust the normally reliable optic for your recreational shooting and eschew redundant BUIS? I don't think so.
Likewise, if you have experienced, or seen others experience a set-screwed gas-block come loose, something that can't be readily fixed at the safe/cold table, is it unreasonable to default to pinned gas-blocks? Once again, I don't think so.
As has been mentioned, unpinned gas-blocks from companies such as BCM, rarely, if ever, come loose because they are installed correctly. The problem generally lies with the DIY'er who doesn't do the install correctly.
Myself, I check stuff for tightness on my rifles, either physically, or visually by index marks. You don't have to worry about a properly installed roll-pin.
T-time out g-guys, muh optic went down.
CEASE
E
A
S
E
FIRE
I
R
E
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Apparently you are active component, and as such I totally agree with your viewpoint on BUIS.
Yeah. Me too. If he's "active component". Or even if he just wants to be. Different people have different needs and different expectations for their firearms, real or imagined. Mission drives the gear.
...
If he's "active component". Or even if he just wants to be.
I used to be, with more time in Afghanistan than Physicians spend in Medical School.
You have a point; “mission” drives the gear. But your condescension in the gas block thread as if you have The Way when in reality you’re nothing but a tourist by your own admission warrants a response.
You have opinions. Eye rolling emojis and “high round count” guncamps aside, they are nothing more and nothing less. Same as how mine are nothing more than my opinions, and I still have much to learn.
But one thing that is a fact is tertiary sighting is in no way, shape, or form a disabler.
I used to be, with more time in Afghanistan than Physicians spend in Medical School.
You have a point; “mission” drives the gear. But your condescension in the gas block thread as if you have The Way when in reality you’re nothing but a tourist by your own admission warrants a response.
You have opinions. Eye rolling emojis and “high round count” guncamps aside, they are nothing more and nothing less.
Tertiary sighting is in no way, shape, or form a disabler.
Yeah, I’m sure you are, or were, high speed. Me...I’m a tourist. A firearms hobbyist. I don’t have any fantasies that dictate that I prepare for hordes of evildoers marching down my driveway or use a rifle, ever, in self defense. You might have that problem, I don’t know or care. Within that context relative to my needs for my gear for my mission, I’m well equipped.
For only caring about your needs, you have some strong opinions about others. Especially given you never see the need for them to be used in self defense, why then is it imperative they be maximally reliable?
I can't understand the concept of just relying on a dimple and some LocTite for a weapon that ostensibly needs to be maximally reliable. Especially when pinning the gas block is so cheap. I've seen enough dimpled gas blocks shoot loose in high round-count carbine courses that I just roll my eyes when I see folks on this forum note that a dimpled gas block is "good enough".
:rolleyes:
For only caring about your needs, you have some strong opinions about others. Especially given you never see the need for them to be used in self defense, why then is it imperative they be maximally reliable?
[/B]
I’m curious. Was the gas block on your weapon in Afghanistan pinned, or glued?
I’m curious. Was the gas block on your weapon in Afghanistan pinned, or glued?
The same as your service rifle, if you’d have had one.
The same as your service rifle, if you’d have had one.
Thank you for your service.
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 16:01
Ayo.
*smacks lips*
Hol up.
If shit's "just a hobby" why u so worried about a pinned gas block fam?
Yeah, I’m sure you are, or were, high speed. Me...I’m a tourist. A firearms hobbyist. I don’t have any fantasies that dictate that I prepare for hordes of evildoers marching down my driveway or use a rifle, ever, in self defense. You might have that problem, I don’t know or care. Within that context relative to my needs for my gear for my mission, I’m well equipped.
Thank you for your service.
Thank you, sir. It was a wonderful job and I’m grateful to have had the opportunity to serve with those I did.
Aren't we about done with this fellas? This thread isn't going anywhere productive.
Ayo.
*smacks lips*
Hol up.
If shit's "just a hobby" why u so worried about a pinned gas block fam?
Primarily the irritation of disassembling the rifle to glue it back on. I hate having to track down gas problems. A secure gas block provides one less problem in that exercise.
...
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 16:26
Are gas blocks coming loose a recurring problem for you?
Primarily the irritation of disassembling the rifle to glue it back on. I hate having to track down gas problems. A secure gas block provides one less problem in that exercise.
...
Are gas blocks coming loose a recurring problem for you?
No. I always pin them.
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 16:43
So, regarding a qualified opinion, you've never had an unpinned gas block come lose?
Got it.
No. I always pin them.
So, regarding a qualified opinion, you've never had an unpinned gas block come lose?
Got it.
Right. After seeing a couple shoot loose years ago, I decided I’d always pin them since it’s so easy and so cheap.
Outlander Systems
03-24-18, 16:58
Monkey see, monkey do.
Makes sense.
Monkey see, monkey do.
Makes sense.
Yeah. That’s exactly it. :rolleyes:
I think this thing has veered off the tracks.
My take:
1) Intended use should drive gear.
2) It is okay to run only optics on a recreational rifle.
3) A properly dimpled and set screwed gas block is not likely to move.
4) A pinned gas-block is inarguably less likely to move.
5) For a recreational shooter it is easier to replace an optic than it is to fix a gas-block that has come loose.
6) In a SHTF scenario, up close and dirty, I can probably get by better w/o sights, then I could with a single-shot rifle.
7) I have a drill-press, I have begun to pin the gas-blocks on my builds.
YMMV
Okay I'll admit I have unpinned castle nuts....There I said it!
Okay I'll admit I have unpinned castle nuts....There I said it!
And you fell better, don't you?
Now are you sure you don't mean un-staked castle nuts?
That could open up the thread for even more drift.
The possibilities are endless.
Me and nomenclature are not friends... yes un-staked. I just want it to stretch a little before I tighten it down again and then do the staking. If I shot it more I would have made that a priority.
Yes. For the 60 seconds it would take me to re-tighten my Aimpoint PRO.
That would get you thrown out of my club - and any class I have been to.
After shooting a steel challenge match today I decided to stop by the pasture to confirm zero on with a red dot mounted on one of my truck rifles from a manufacturer discussed in this thread (the low cost one), and it was dead. I had iron sights so the trip wasn't wasted. After getting it home it appears to be a connection issue and is working again for now. Imo backups are a must on any rifle if it is to be used for defense, however its a free world do what you want.
So you pulled out your truck gun and the red dot was dead. Sounds like you should check your truck gun more often...as well as think about upgrading to a better red dot.
We could do with a lot less snark in this thread. Starting to feel like I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque and ended up in a purse fight on TOS.
We could do with a lot less anecdotal evidence offered as circular proof that all red dot sights are unreliable and prone to failure.
I will say that the Primary Arms MD-RB-AD reddot, with it's lifetime warranty and 50K-hour "always on" runtime, might change my mind about $150 RDS'.
I check it every time it comes out of the safe and goes to the truck, it died during the drive. Things can happen that fast. Its from the same company that might just change your mind about $150 rds. Don't hate just giving you a counter point, of an Instance that happened to me.
I check it every time it comes out of the safe and goes to the truck, it died during the drive. Things can happen that fast. Its from the same company that might just change your mind about $150 rds. Don't hate just giving you a counter point, of an Instance that happened to me.
Not hatin'. Anecdotally, my old PA MD-RBGII reddot has been relentlessly abused and has proven to be just as rugged and reliable as my Aimpoint H1...so there's that.
Not hatin'. Anecdotally, my old PA MD-RBGII reddot has been relentlessly abused and has proven to be just as rugged and reliable as my Aimpoint H1...so there's that.Yeah this is why I don't put much stock in any one singular review. A sample size of one is no sample at all.
It's hard to get a truly signifgant sample size to determine if optic x is actually more reliable than optic y .... Sampling many reviews can help but that becomes much more anecdotal than actual hard data, as not everyone does the same testing. I'm sure the manufacturer has the hard data nessecarry, but they are unlikely to share raw data.
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We could do with a lot less anecdotal evidence offered as circular proof that all red dot sights are unreliable and prone to failure.
I'm not really sure where you're getting this stuff. Nobody said all red dots are unreliable and prone to failure. Aimpoint and a few other manufacturers have a proven track record. Chicom stuff has a tendency to malf. That's why it cost less. Cheap parts, cheap labor, lax QC.
So you pulled out your truck gun and the red dot was dead. Sounds like you should check your truck gun more often...as well as think about upgrading to a better red dot.
He has the same brand red dot you have apparently.
Not hatin'. Anecdotally, my old PA MD-RBGII reddot has been relentlessly abused and has proven to be just as rugged and reliable as my Aimpoint H1...so there's that.
I'm confused. Isn't it anecdotal evidence when you say that your $150 is as reliable as an Aimpoint?
Mr McSimon
03-26-18, 17:13
I'm not really sure where you're getting this stuff. Nobody said all red dots are unreliable and prone to failure. Aimpoint and a few other manufacturers have a proven track record. Chicom stuff has a tendency to malf. That's why it cost less. Cheap parts, cheap labor, lax QC.
He has the same brand red dot you have apparently.
I'm confused. Isn't it anecdotal evidence when you say that your $150 is as reliable as an Aimpoint?
At this point he's just being argumentative. He hasn't made a constructive post or decent point in at least a few pages now. In fact, he could have just made 1 post to say something like, "I prefer to rely on my primary optic and have no need for backups for myself", and left it at that. This thread was never about the things he's arguing anyways, it was never a to be or not to be question, but simply a which one of.
Boba Fett v2
03-26-18, 19:48
And you all keep feeding the troll. This thread has gone to sh!t. Put a lock on it.
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