JSSAP XM9 trials

[Slater]

http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf

Over the years I've heard the various opinons and accusations regarding these tests, but never seen any facts and figures until I read the above GAO report.

Seems that Beretta's "best and final" price was $178.50 while SACO (SIG) pricing came in at $176.33. However:

"To give the manufacturers some idea of many magazines and spare parts sets it would buy, the Army said it would base it's price analysis on the following quantities:

- Magazines at 400 percent of the number of pistols and
- Spare part sets at 10 per cent of the number of pistols

Beretta's and SACO's price quotes for each magazine were $9.30 and $11.95 respectively, and for each spare parts set were $209.42 and $221.79 respectively. The cost evaluator simply multiplied each contractor's magazine unit price by 400 percent of the number of pistols and each contractor's spare parts set price by 10 percent of the number of pistols. Because of the 400 percent factor used to evaluate the magazines, Beretta's lower magazine price more than any other factor resulted in its having the lowest overall evaluated price."


Hell, if SIG/SACO had cheaper mags, we would be bitching about the crappy SIG M9's :p

[sff70]

http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf
Hell, if SIG/SACO had cheaper mags, we would be bitching about the crappy SIG M9's :p

NSW seems to do fine with their P226s. No bitching there.

I yet to see a Sig slide or locking block break.

[Ross]

The teams here in Virginia Beach had problems with their Sig mags. Whomever the powers that be, bean counters, also went with an aftermarket contractor for Sig P226 mags. I don't know if it was a DLA thing, or what.

Rounds falling out, followers not moving, Sigs jamming, etc. Overall the exact same problems as the Beretta had later during OIF. Because the SEALs train alot more with their pistols using live ammo, they identified the problem early and corrected it quickly.

When I first heard about it, I figured some enterpirsing squid in supply was swapping out aftermarket mags for the factory ones and selling them on the side. This was during the AWB, and alot of that stuff was going on. I didn't think much about it until OIF and the M9 mag problem. The light went on above my head and I realized that someone in DoD simply got cheap. Because vast majority of the Army trains very rarely with live ammo in sidearms, they didn't identify the problem until it manifested itself in combat.

[CarlosDJackal]

...Hell, if SIG/SACO had cheaper mags, we would be bitching about the crappy SIG M9's :p

I don't know about that. I have yet to hear about any issues with the Sig M11s. Price isn't that big a deciding factor for this. Think about where the testing was conducted (Aberdeen proving Grounds, MD) and where the M9 factory is (Acoceek, MD). And now, think about just how powerful and corrupt the MD Congressmen and Senators are. Do you think they just stood by and let things happen?

[ToddG]

Lots of funny stuff was going on during the M9 trials. But the fact that the testing was done at Aberdeen had nothing to do with anything.

And for the record, price was the deciding factor. The procurement spelled that out before the first test guns were delivered. They didn't pick the best gun, they didn't even use the common (now) "best value" calculation. They tested multiple models, and put the ones which passed the test on a list. Those guns were allowed to bid a price. The lowest total price for any gun that passed the test was the winner.

It's the difference between buying "the least expensive car capable of going zero to 60 in less than five seconds" versus buying "the car with the fastest zero to 60 time."

As for M11 problems, they're certainly happening. You have to remember that M11's make up a tiny fraction of the total .mil handgun inventory. TACOM spent a lot of money a couple years ago to have SIG refurbish and repair many of the M11's, in fact. While I'd agree the M9's have more problems than the M11's (even accounting for the different number of guns), there are also major differences in who uses the two guns, in what environments, with what support and maintenance, for what round counts ... A lot more M9's get abused than M11's ever will.

[CarlosDJackal]

What I heard from those who tested the candidates at Aberdeen, there are a heck of a lot more "funny stuff" than what people outside the test group are aware of. However, I'll concede to what you posted because I am really not at liberty to provide names, facts, or figures.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. The 92F I own have been flawless as is the P228. But I would still rather carry a Glock. In fact, I (and a lot of members of my unit - most of whom are Cops) were trying to get permission to deploy with our Glocks (I was going to take either a Glock 17L or a Glock 34) but my Unit Commanders not just said no but HELL NO!! It takes at least a 1-star General to sign off on the orders and we've been told to never bother them about this again. :rolleyes: