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View Full Version : AAR: Concealed and Off-Duty Pistol (David Pennington)



ToddG
10-20-08, 10:51
While I was just one of ten forum members attending the class, apparently I'm the only one who didn't need to go to work Monday morning so I'll start the AAR thread. :cool:

Synopsis: Excellent class. Dave is well known to many M4C members from previous training gigs, and he brought his extensive knowledge of the particular subject matter to full bear. The class was billed as a concealed carry class rather than a tacticool ninja gear class, and it was exactly that. Pace was excellent. Content ran the gamut from marksmanship fundamentals to 2-, strong- and weak-hand only manipulations from concealment. Dave also included both a detailed lecture on various CCW methods as well as a low-light segment.

Content: As mentioned above, this class was aimed at improving the student's knowledge and skill in terms of carrying a concealed firearm. To my great surprise, it was the first such training many of the students had received. Though veterans of many tactical AR, AK, pistol, low-light, etc. classes it seemed like most of them had never gone through formal training with their actual everyday carry gear. Shame on them for that, and good on Dave for realizing there was a need to provide such training!

Shooting segments: Class began with some marksmanship fundamental drills. Students shot at a 5.5" circle target at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards first freestyle (two hands), then strong hand only (SHO) and finally weak hand only (WHO). It was therefore made clear right at the beginning of the class that we'd be expected to handle our pistols SHO and WHO, and I probably did more one-handed shooting in Dave's class than any 2-day program I've experienced.

On the range, Dave also covered, in no particular order:

Drawing from open front and closed front concealment (each student was required to practice both ways)
Drawing SHO & WHO from concealment
Reloading from concealment, including SHO and WHO
Stoppage & Malfunction clearance techniques (tap/rack and rip drills) 2-handed, SHO, and WHO ... all from concealment
Shooting on the move
Use of cover
Multiple flashlight techniques

Many of the more complicated drills were done both dry fire and live fire. For students who were not already familiar with certain SHO/WHO acrobatics, this maintained a safe training environment while still providing an opportunity to practice realistically under varying degrees of stress.

Total round count was between 1,000 and 1,100 rounds for most students. About 2/3 of that was fired on day one, while day 2 involved more of the one-handed manipulations, moving, cover, etc. drills that are more time consuming. Nonetheless, the pace was always fast and I never felt like I was standing around waiting to do the next thing.

Dave used a very simple target system that kept everyone dialed in for accuracy, still allowed folks to see where their misses were going, and kept the class running smoothly. It's an idea I intend to steal for my own classes, in fact. Thanks again for that, Dave!

"Classroom" segments: In addition to the range training, Dave also provided lecture-style instruction describing and demonstrating a wide variety of CCW options. He went over the pros and cons of kydex vs. leather, concealed carry vs. covert carry, OWB, IWB, AIWB, shoulder holsters, small of back carry, pocket carry, ankle carry, Thunderwear-type holsters, fanny packs, off-body options, and the use of retention devices in conjunction with concealed carry.

Students: Eight out of the ten students were already very competent gun handlers, from what I could see. Two others were newer and struggled more. In my experience as both a student and a teacher, I've found that the real measure of a firearms instructor is his ability to switch gears between students. Going from the best guy in class to the worst guy in class and providing cogent useful advice is very hard to do, and Dave was excellent at it.

Also, because many of the students knew each other well, it was a very cordial and fun social environment. Heck, we didn't even tease VA_Dinger for taking 15.92 seconds just to fire one round, reload, and fire two more rounds on a 5.5" circle ... at five yards ... from the ready. No, we didn't tease him about that once.

(of course, Dinger then outshot almost everyone else in class on the final test, missing only four shots ... the two next best students missed 9 each and after that we started to need a calculator to figure scores :cool:)

Conclusion: Not only would I recommend this class to others, but I'd sign up to take it again. Dave balances professionalism and competence with an approachable demeanor that makes class both educational and enjoyable. Students were constantly challenged to improve, and I believe everyone in class did exactly that.

Templar took some photos and video, so hopefully he'll be able to add visuals to this thread.

Train hard & stay safe! TLG

John_Wayne777
10-20-08, 11:47
This is one I really wish I could have taken. Unfortunately I just had too much important stuff going on this weekend.

If Dave offers this class again in 2009 it's one I'm going to put on my "to do" list.

VA_Dinger
10-20-08, 18:03
Absolutely awesome class, I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Like I've told Dave a hundred times he is an amazing instructor, and it showed again in this class. It seems that every aspect of concealed carry was covered in the class. Not having much concealed carry experience myself it was an eye opener to say the least. It's safe to say based on this class I will be changing to a different holster and mag carrier, not to mention practicing concealed carry draws & reloads much more. Also like any great class I not only learned a lot, but had a great time doing it.

I was very pleased with my shooting throughout the weekend, but as Todd so graciously pointed out I had a few brain dead moments like most everybody else. :D To say I was under the microscope all class would be an understatement. :D That being said, I dished it out just as much as I received so it all equaled out in the end.

IMO: If anybody has the opportunity to train with David in the future I highly suggest it. You will come away very impressed to say the least.

flyfishr
10-20-08, 18:26
My first class (thus one of those shooters with, uh, more potential to improve, that Todd mentioned), but I had a heckuva good time. I think Dave probably got hoarse repeating "trigger control" to me, but the entire experience was great. A really informative, well-run course by Dave, a fun bunch of guys, and I managed to keep most of the shots on the cardboard, if not in that blasted white circle.

Enjoyed meeting the class - - - say, who made that comment about the target looking like a Remington 870 pattern!!!! These guys were quick with the quips, mostly aimed at VA_Dinger, thank goodness.

Learned a lot, and I would do it again in a minute. Thanks Dave.

Oh yeah, EVEN I didn't take 15.92 seconds on that drill!!! [But I did have more, lots, than four misses on the final drill. That would be the drill Todd had zero misses on. That guy is good. And fast!!]

Buzz

subzero
10-20-08, 19:01
We covered a lot of ground at this course. I was very happy with the pace and level of instruction. I look forward to any future classes Dave teaches.

Another great South Hill class. I was eager to take this one for the opportunity to work from concealment for a change. As Dave pointed out, so many guys take a class and show up in rigs they would never wear on the street. Is there value in having a training rig or a complete LBE kit? Of course. But for those of us non-mil or LEO types, we're shortchanging ourselves a bit by not practicing in the gear we carry with every day.

Getting an opportunity to work from concealment was, by itself, worth the price of admission. Ranges here in Tidewater won't allow anything dynamic (ie: shooting on the move, working from the draw or drawing from concealment) meaning nearly all of my practice on those subjects is done at home with a gun going click instead of bang. Not ideal.

We shot a bit more than I had anticipated, so I've been kicking myself for a while now for dragging down the rest of the class with my observations on round count. Fellas, I apologize for my lack of preparedness. I won't let it happen again. I brought 1000 rounds (granted, what the syllabus said, but we all know we should bring more) and when my ammo can started getting low I started getting nervous. I hate running out of anything. Total round count ended up in the neighborhood of 1100, most of that coming on day 1. Each round gave me good value, and I appreciated the repetition you don't always find in a class where an instructor can be tempted to want to move things along because there's a lot to cover. Repetition brings clarity.

I was really impressed by how well everyone in the class shot. I can't recall a class where everyone across the board shot so well. On any given drill it seemed like more than half of the class was able to shoot it clean. The early emphasis on marksmanship basics prior to getting into the meat of working from concealment really helped out, I think. Well done, all.

I gotta say, being in a small class is REALLY nice. You spend so much time on the line, you feel like you're getting much more for your money. With only one relay, there's more time to shoot or more time to instruct, so it seems like we cover more AND shoot more. Best of both worlds. Downside: sometimes you're rushed when you're jamming mags to keep it going. Boo hoo. I'll take that.

I learned a few important things: I can't just rely on always having a flashlight, I need some night sights. I should look into appendix carry (or at the very least, look at IWB carry again. I gave it up when I stopped carrying a 1911.). I need to get some of those kydex mag pouches Todd and Dave had (link please, fellas). I may need some new ears, as my new set of HL Impacts (bought to replace a set that died after 18 months) were a bit squirrely out of the box. One ear started cutting in and out, but fixed itself. Gotta spend the money on Sordins now, and damn if I want to do that.

That's about it. Great class. You should take it.

TOrrock
10-20-08, 19:25
Fantastic class. Definitely have to re-evaluate some of the things I've been doing for years.

Here are some pics of the class doing a weak hand draw drill, with cold weapons:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010242.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010243.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010244.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010246.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010247.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010248.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010249.jpg


Some cover drills:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010252.jpg

(Everyone loves Dinger......)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010251.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010253.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010257.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010259.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010260.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010261.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010262.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010263.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010265.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010283.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Pennington%20CCW%20Class%2018-19%20Oct/P1010284.jpg

Great group of guys. I was the only one shooting a metal framed handgun, my SIG P226 Tactical. Everyone else was using a Glock 19 or a S&W M&P. Two guys used HK's, a P2000 and a P30, and one shooter was using a Kahr Arms PM9 the first day and switched to a Springfield XD the second day.

DZL HOG
10-20-08, 19:45
Great AAR Todd. I could have started one last night I suppose since Im only 20minutes away, but Im not real good at giving detailed reviews.
It was great shooting beside you on TD1, you really know what your doing with a pistol.
David did a great job instructing an awesome class. He kept things on topic, which was very hard at times, everything went at a good pace and fun was had by all(I did at least), and I know everyone learned something at some point in the class. I learned several things. The main thing, NOT to take a training class with a pistol the size of your hand. I figured up that I fired 552rds through the PM9 on TD1. I thought it was a little higher, but thats all the empty boxes I had when I got home. I know many of you fired more b/c I only had a few mags and had to stop early to reload. I shot around 250 on TD2 with the XD, and my target looked a ton better. Time to buy another case now, only a few hundred rounds left here. The night shoot was very informative. Just a front trijicon sight isnt enough to hit the steel in the dark, for me at least. Still havent gotten this straight with Kahr yet, they only shipped the front sight. :(
For some reason I cant make head shots, even when trying. I only had 11-12rds (One was right on the neck line) outside of the 8" circle. 2 of which I know were low head shot attempts, and only 6 went into the head. No clue where the other 2 head shot attempts ended up.

No comment on my round launching "barrel run", :rolleyes: I dont know what the hell I was doing out there. :confused: I shot decent all day throughout most of the drills, then got stupid when we combined everything into one drill.

I really like the idea mentioned about that drill using falling steel targets, that way you have to make the hits. Maybe that would have made me slow down some and concentrate.
It was great shooting with the members I had met back in Sept, and good to meet some new faces from M4C. We ended up with some great weather, other than slightly cooler than normal for this time of year. But it was a lot better than this morning when it was 35degrees with a heavy layer of frost covering everything.

flyfishr,
You did a good job for this being your first class. It was just last month when I was out there for the first time with a bunch of guys that new what was going on and I didnt have a clue. So I know how you feel. The next class you take will be a lot easier, trust me, I wasnt anywhere near as nervous at this class as I was the first one I took. Being familiar with some of the drills and fellow shooters makes things easier.

GLOCKMASTER
10-20-08, 22:16
Excellent AAR guys and great pictures. Sounds like a great class and I hate I couldn't make this class because I'm within driving distance. I hope Dave puts on another class in the near future.

M4arc
10-21-08, 12:25
CRAP!

It looks like I missed another outstanding class :mad:

Would you guys mind posting what worked/didn't work and what kind of holsters you all were running? It seems I'm forever looking for the right holster (the Appendix Looper is pretty sweet however) so I'd like to absorb as much information from you all as possible.

Hopefully Dave will run this class again in the spring.

mark5pt56
10-21-08, 13:42
Great right up Todd, sounds like you guys had some good training!

I bet the one handed malfunction drills were a treat!

ToddG
10-21-08, 13:48
subzero -- That's the Basic Mag Carrier (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=11) from Custom Carry Concepts.

M4arc -- I use a prototype leather appendix holster from Garrity's Gunleather (http://www.garritysgunleather.com/) and one of the BMCs listed above. No issues with either. I also had a Ruger LCP in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster, though I only shot it a couple of times during the class.

ToddG
10-21-08, 19:34
Guys, I shot Scott Warren an email about the experience many of us had ripping up our leather gear at Dave's class this weekend. As I thought, he's of the opinion that the sharp edges on his sight are a better trade-off than compromising on performance for the sake of comfort and keeping our gear pretty. Here was his response:


Todd, thanks for the feedback. When using Warren Tactical sights, PLEASE remember that they were designed, not by a casual shooter, not by a machinist, not by some businessmen, all of whom are motivated by producing products purely for profit. They were designed by a serious tactician, who does excel in the competitive arena, but whose heart and mind are directed towards keeping those who work in the real world and on the job alive and well. At a true tactical or defense time, when you have to conduct that one handed slide manipulation drill, you will come to love those sharp edges, knowing that they will not fail you as you cycle the slide with your only one good hand. Then you will be able to deliver those well placed rounds into your attacker(s). Further and just as important, remember those sharp edges were not designed for the fashion minded.

Over the past few years, I've also ripped up and punctured some concealment garments practicing those same drills because of the Warren sights. But the reality is, better to rip up a golf shirt than discover during a Bad Time that you can't rack the slide one-handed (which is a definite problem with the current stock M&P sights). For myself, I'm just going to use a Wilderness belt and throw-away concealment shirt for classes like these in the future. I'd rather ruin some dedicated training gear than walk around with equipment that won't actually do what I need it to do under worst case scenarios. YMMV.

John Frazer
10-22-08, 06:30
Looks like a good class.

Question, are the Warren sights sharper somewhere than the Heinie Straight Eight or Slant Pro?

John_Wayne777
10-22-08, 07:10
(which is a definite problem with the current stock M&P sights).


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie....

Try doing a one handed slide rack on a 1911 with a 20 pound recoil spring and Novak sights.

30 cal slut
10-22-08, 08:32
This is one I really wish I could have taken. Unfortunately I just had too much important stuff going on this weekend.

If Dave offers this class again in 2009 it's one I'm going to put on my "to do" list.


+1

Dave is top-notch, I'm gonna put this on my training calendar for 2009.

Todd, thanks for the AAR.

DrMark
10-22-08, 08:45
All,

Thanks for taking the time to post detailed AARs like this. It's a big help to those of us who don't get to train as much as we'd like to.

BTW, David Pennington was the lead instructor of a 10-8 class I took in 2006, and I wholeheartedly agree with the comments that he's an excellent instructor.

Mark

TOrrock
10-22-08, 11:46
We also had a mini AK clinic for yrac and Dinger. :cool:

David Pennington
10-22-08, 12:48
Thanks for all of the kind comments. I really enjoyed seeing everyone and, as always with these classes, learned some new things myself.

DocGKR
10-23-08, 01:14
Sounds great. If you ever come out to the west coast, I'd love to take a class with you.

subzero
10-23-08, 06:31
Forgot to mention, during the night shoot we shot various brands of 9mm and 38 sp defensive ammo. I was particularly surprised that Golden Saber 124+p threw a lot less muzzle flash than I thought it would, after shooting 45 ACP 230gr Golden Saber at night and seeing a basketball sized flame.

9mm TAP, Golden Sabre, Ranger and Gold Dots all seemed to be about even in terms of how much muzzle flash they threw. None seemed far off from the flash shown by 115gr ball 9mm.

chris914
10-24-08, 17:42
And best of all I learned that Winchester 125 gr +P Silvertips out of my J frame throws lots of BLUE flames. Wow! I am going to have to change that ammo or not shoot anyone in the dark without shades. :D

It was truthfully the most useful class that I have taken. Dave is good at giving instruction and carrying concealed is his specialty. I will take this class every time it is offered.

SHIVAN
10-24-08, 18:02
Looks like a great class. It looks like the kind of class that would have been more fun in the rain though. :p

Jay Cunningham
10-24-08, 18:35
Looks like a great class. It looks like the kind of class that would have been more fun in the rain though. :p

Almost...

:o

TOrrock
10-24-08, 19:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yUmRcpyHuA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke8Y8gFA6EM

John_Wayne777
10-24-08, 19:45
Well, you can only move as fast as you can make the hit.

...or you can do what I do and just find the sight on the fifth or sixth shot.

I noticed Jay actually bought himself another Glock....and a two tone one at that. Gettin' a bit extravagant, aintcha killer? :p

The more I read about this class, the more pissed off I get that I couldn't swing attending it. I really hope DP offers this one again when I can swing it.

TOrrock
10-24-08, 19:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlWePKUUTus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvREbZ3HXc

Jay Cunningham
10-24-08, 19:53
I noticed Jay actually bought himself another Glock....and a two tone one at that. Gettin' a bit extravagant, aintcha killer? :p

I have a black Glock 19 and an OD Glock 19 so I can tell them apart. :p

The black one is vetted with over 5000 rounds through it and is what I carry. The OD has probably 1500 through it but experienced some malfunctions during the class. My mags are numbered so I will keep running it and see if I can isolate the issue.

M4arc
10-24-08, 20:51
The more I read about this class, the more pissed off I get that I couldn't swing attending it. I really hope DP offers this one again when I can swing it.

You and me both brother!

TOrrock
10-24-08, 21:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZZvNHZERg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtOBfBpVIq0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0WWVDAQ58c

TOrrock
10-24-08, 23:54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FrrmPdKCuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-bl1qyf1i0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1qnoYD_aic

vaspence
10-28-08, 10:47
Yall need to convince him to run another class (outside of hunting season). I'd really like to have attended this one. Dinger and Templar, I'm sure you guys can convince him. Maybe in February or early March?

VA_Dinger
11-02-08, 12:19
Yall need to convince him to run another class (outside of hunting season). I'd really like to have attended this one. Dinger and Templar, I'm sure you guys can convince him. Maybe in February or early March?

There is no doubt this class will be offered again. It is already being planned.

Just keep checking this forum for updates.

m4fun
11-04-08, 21:00
Sounds awesome guys - sorry I missed this one as well. Look forward to the next offering.