Old Vs New

[Toten Kopf]

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[Jay Cunningham]

Welcome to M4C.


Is all this "stuff" really necesary?


I would ask you, necessary for what in particular?

[JBnTX]

Deleted

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[Jay Cunningham]

Have you read any of the threads in the Optics & Mounts and/or Tactical Lights / Lasers / Knives forums?

There are hundreds upon hundreds of threads here discussing how all of that "stuff" is useful to military, LEO and regular Joe types.

Do you have a specific question?

[Abraxas]

Is all this stuff really necessary or just cool to have? I mean do the majority of people that have all this kind of stuff really use it?

I mean do I need to look close at this kind of "stuff". Is it going to help me in any way?

Necessary? That depends on your definition of necessary. Most of it is very useful, but only for certain roles. If not one of those roles at best it is irritating. It all depends on what you want to do with your rifle, like whether you are shooting at great distances or CQB or is it a race gun or a battle rifle, things like that will determine the necessity

[BushmasterFanBoy]

I have been with the AR platform before it was called a platform. My first build and back then (1978) it was a build (not an assembly) you had crude lower receivers that had to be re-worked to get parts to fit.

Way back when, you had to do your own machining to remove the carrying handles (flat tops didn't exist). You had to machine your own sight bases (front/rear).

To get any kind of long range performance the only caliber that was available was the 6x45mm which was good out to 600 yards.

Now, I see all sorts of stuff (like this stuff costs more than the rifle/carbine) available for the AR15 platform. I enjoy the basic rifle/carbine and I would like to know just how far we have come. Is all this "stuff" really necesary? Or does the basic rifle/carbine still hold it's own in todays environment?
Wow. Sounds quite interesting. Being the whipper snapper that I am, could you post some pics of some "custom" rifles (like carry handle mods you described) from back in the day? I always like looking at how far the AR has come.

As to your question, I'm most certainly not a high speed low drag guy, and I appreciate my Aimpoints a ton. They make getting on target faster , help me shoot more accurately, and make aiming in low light or against dark backgrounds easier.

A good sling is also very nice to have, and it lets you carry the gun comfortably for extended period of time, not to mention it lets you do transitions to your pistol with two hands.

Also, a nice light makes home defense with the gun viable. Going through your darkened house at night is no fun, even without having been woken up by what "goes bump in the night". If you are serious about home defense, get a light, most violent encounters happen at night, and you will need to use a light to make sure the target is a threat, and not a family member before firing.

I just came up with some very practical uses for you, and the most "useless" of the 3 is a red dot, but ironically enough, it is the one I prize the most, as I'm literally using it 24/7 (I love Aimpoint's battery life).

[rob_s]

While this is pretty obviously just a trolling thread....

If something helps you get good hits, and get good hits faster and in all sorts of lighting conditions, I would say it's a good thing.

Light, RDS, two-point sling. IMHO these are the marks of a "basic" carbine.

Basic AK
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/ak-complete.jpg

Basic AR SBR
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Colt-6933-Magpul-Larue-2.jpg

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[rob_s]

So if not trolling, what then? What is the point of this thread? Your mind is already made up that things like red dot sights and weapon-mounted lights are unnecessary, so what's the point?

"work that I did in the past"? HUH? This would be relevant how? You could have charged up San Juan Hill, but it still wouldn't negate the value of an RDS or a weapon-mounted light.

Talk to anyone currently fighting the GWOT. They'll tell you that an RDS and a light are basic requirements of the job.

[Jay Cunningham]

Wow, a mind reader and a very poor one at that.

Sorry no trolling here just honest questions about what I've been reading and seeing.

Also, I will post some of the work that I did in the past.

A red dot optical sight allows faster threat engagement under all lighting conditions. A magnified optical sight allows for better target discrimination at distance and can allow more detail to be seen in poor lighting. Iron sights are useless at night.

A properly designed sling lets you drop your carbine to use your hands for whatever - fighting opening doors, giving first aid, etc...

A light lets you locate and positively identify a potential threat as an actual threat.

Rail systems allow for modularity and can allow for better cooling and better more consistent accuracy when free-floated.

Telescoping stocks allow a proper fit to the end user dependent upon their build, their clothing and if they are wearing armor.

So to answer your original (I think) question, a basic AR carbine is fine under ideal conditions. In degraded conditions the additional "stuff" is a force multiplier.

[Toten Kopf]

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[rob_s]

Wow, a mind reader and a very poor one at that.

Sorry no trolling here just honest questions about what I've been reading and seeing.

Here are some pictures circa 1980 at Ft. Indiantown Gap, PA. The float tube, front sight/rear sight bases were all hand machined. No going to the store for any of these parts. In fact I still have some of these parts that I have kept, some things you just can't throw away.

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/ARM_Rifles_3.jpg

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/ARM_Rifles_4.jpg

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/ARM_Rifles_5.jpg

It looks to me like those parts are intended for a different kind of shooting than what most here are interested in.

Curious though. Since you have such a great iron sight setup there, is the scope necessary?

[Toten Kopf]

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[JBnTX]

While this is pretty obviously just a trolling thread....




Post Deleted.

Toten Kopf I'm sorry I interfered with your thread.

I too have the same questions, but I don't think
an open discussion is possible here.

[MaceWindu]

Most sit at a bench in broad daylight and shoot at paper targets
100yds away.


Not most of the people on this forum. I know I run my carbines, HARD.


Just because people disagree with you, or ask questions doesn't make them
trollers.


I would agree here.


I've never understood how the same people who go nuts
about safety when they see a picture of someone with their finger on the trigger,
can put a light on a loaded rifle and then aim it at something to see if it's a family member or an intruder.


I have NEVER seen a picture of any member here, doing what you described.


Just my $.02

Mace

[Legion6]

I have a vert grip, light and RDS. BUIS is a troy flip up. All can be easily removed per requirements. If I wanted to go back to only irons I can. Nothing on my rifle is "extra", IMHO.

Vert grip is more comfy for me to hold rifle for extended periods of time while I'm plinking rabbits.

RDS for quick target aquisition, plus my eyes are bad so it helps.

light: for darkness because I camp and like a light on my rifle. I have a handheld one also, so I can chose.

Just my preference. I am .mil also, so it keeps me in practice.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Just because people disagree with you, or ask questions doesn't make them
trollers.

Exactly, dissent and discussion is what makes a forum interesting and fun to engage in discussion. A close knit group of like minded individuals does nothing but limit advancement. Think of several years back when "square pants" was in fashion. Now that's virtually gone for semi automatic AR15 shooters.



Excluding our Armed Forces and LEOs, how many people actually use this
stuff? Most sit at a bench in broad daylight and shoot at paper targets
100yds away.

I don't think most members here do that. A great deal pay large sums of money and dedicate vast amounts of time in order to try to get the most out of this hobby. Thankfully and hopefully no one here will never need to actually shoot their weapon as originally intended. (With the exception of Mil. and Private Sector folks)


Are they really needed or just "marketing items" because the AR-15 is so
readily altered and configured.

Well obviously these companies are in the business of marketing and creating products for consumers. If they don't introduce successful concepts and get people buying, then they are not going to be a successful company. The more series companies try to do this by creating reliable products and get backing from respected community members. Most companies just make crap and throw it out on the market. Sometimes this competition for the customers money leads to the creation of viable accessories for the enthusiast (Red Dots for example).

[ZDL]

Exactly, dissent and discussion is what makes a forum interesting and fun to engage in discussion. A close knit group of like minded individuals does nothing but limit advancement.


Did you think about this before you posted it?

[SoDak]

I guess I have found some practical uses for the bolt on accessories outside of military/defense use. For me it's varmit control.

Early on when dealing with raccoons at night, I thought that it would be so much handier to have the flashlight mounted on the gun rather than try to hold a separate flashlight and rifle a the same time. That was one big reason I got my first AR rifle since a flashlight was easily mountable. Low and behold, having the flashlight mounted on the gun made varmit control at night(which is when skunks, raccoons, etc. come out) much simpler and efficient.

Just recently I got ahold of a red dot and while I haven't had a chance to use it at night it seems like it would make lowlight/night varmit hunting easier as well. Another advantage to a red dot is that since all you have to do is put a dot on the target, it is possible to shoot from awkward positions that would be very dificult with irons.

Finally I have come to like the collapsable stock on the gun because of its versatility. When fully collapsed, it makes the gun short enough to easily maneuver out of a truck, yet I can shoot the gun in that form, something that is not possible with folding stocks. The collapsable stock is also nice for the mentioned reasons of adjusting for different clothing and personal preferance on length of pull.

In a nut shell, the plethora of accesories avaible for an AR has helped me take a gun that performed adequately for its intended role, to something that works extremely well. So I would say that the accesories do have a pratical application and are not necesarily just a bunch of dead weight. I could probably think of some other accesories that have benfited me or look like they would, but those three are ones that really stick out in my mind.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Did you think about this before you posted it?

Yes, it holds true.
Without new and fresh ideas, our community would not be going anywhere. Think if everyone stopped at iron sights and people were unwilling to try out these newfangled red dots?
Think of new techniques and ideas that have been introduced by respected instructors. What if no one opened their mind to these new techniques? What if we never risked trying out a new piece of gear?
If people are not willing to be open and at least try a new idea advancement would not occur.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Anyways, to the OP, thanks for the pics, I like seeing "retro" stuff like you posted.:)

[ZDL]

Yes, it holds true.
Without new and fresh ideas, our community would not be going anywhere. Think if everyone stopped at iron sights and people were unwilling to try out these newfangled red dots?
Think of new techniques and ideas that have been introduced by respected instructors. What if no one opened their mind to these new techniques? What if we never risked trying out a new piece of gear?
If people are not willing to be open and at least try a new idea advancement would not occur.

Ok. So a "close knit community full of like minded individuals" couldn't accomplish this?

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Ok. So a "close knit community full of like minded individuals" couldn't accomplish this?

No way. People would be too afraid to try out new ideas, everyone would just be thinking the same way. Think back over on TOS where people are quick to jump to defend Bushmaster, just because the status quo says "ABC". Here, people actually took and gathered real data ("The Chart") and figured out from personal experience that Colt has fewer failure rates. Over on TOS, you merely uttered ABC at someones question of which carbine to grab. Here members are better informed and thought out a solution to the question, rather than all just saying "ABC".

That's just one example, but there are many more.

[ZDL]

No way. People would be too afraid to try out new ideas, everyone would just be thinking the same way. Think back over on TOS where people are quick to jump to defend Bushmaster, just because the status quo says "ABC". Here, people actually took and gathered real data ("The Chart") and figured out from personal experience that Colt has fewer failure rates. Over on TOS, you merely uttered ABC at someones question of which carbine to grab. Here members are better informed and thought out a solution to the question, rather than all just saying "ABC".

That's just one example, but there are many more.

Ok. So you did not think before you posted it. Figured. :)

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[ra2bach]

whatever floats your boat. or blows your dress up. or whatever...

there's nothing wrong with a basic carry handle, fixed front sight, A2 stock rifle and if that's what you want, that's fine.

however, as it's been pointed out. if it's dark, you're gonna need light. and if your eyes are like my 53 yr.old, those sights don't pick up as quick as they used to so a red dot or something similar is verrrrry nice to have.

and you'll need some way to mount them to the rifle (or carbine, as most here would show you that a 20" barrel is not "necessary") so a rail or railed handguard is just the thing. a two point sling in the standard configuration was GTG for thousands in harms way but some folks put their thinking caps on and found a better way. I like that.

but just like my toolbox, my wife asked me once why I need both several different kinds of sockets and wrenches if all they do they is turn nuts? I told her in some cases, while they are similar, one is NOT necessarily replaceable by the other, depending on need. and then I showed her in which case that would be true.

starting to see the connection?

so, the question becomes what tool do you think you need for your intended use and how much are you willing to spend, right? obviously some have things added to their guns simply because they want them but then again, others have shown you that lighting and sights and a sling are basic needs. you may or may not agree. seek your level...

[i303]

Toten,

Welcome to this forum.

I would like to point out that it's cool that you guys did your actual own building. Having done many assembling of M16's, M4's, and my own AR I often like to point out that assembling an AR is not building, and to top it off I wish I had those machining skills, not to mention the actual equipment, and metal stock to do such things. That is true building skills. I've assembled Erector Sets far more complicated than an AR. In fact I'm currently "building" an AK in 5.45 to include bending my own flat. I've yet to consider this a true "build" calling it a more complicated assembly a notch below the Erector Set. And it was the crane set.

But I would also point out that many of us weren't lucky enough to be born in the 50's where we would be put in that position. I was born in the mid 60's and there are many men born way after me that haven't a clue how things were before rails were introduced.

And with a whopping 20 or so posts, I too have already experienced the "condescending" attitude from someone who has about as much time on this board as I do with a much higher post count. It's easy for many to assume post count equals actual experience. I wish I had that luxury to mill around the net all day. I also love to point out there is a difference between an armorer and a gunsmith.

Here, like TOS (yes I had to look that one up since I've made the mistake of mentioning the unmentionable) armorer's are a dime a dozen. I've been to Colt's (Beretta and Ach un Kay-self taught with the Glock as if that was a challenge) armorer's training at Altoona. I can teach my 12 and 13 y/o kids all I know about an AR to the point as that of a certified armorer. I personally know many certified armorers that shouldn't be an armorer. Either they lacked the mechanical adeptness, skills, or simply didn't give a F and just wanted the 2 weeks TDY to PA. all while I've seen folks with self taught skills who obviusly know what they are doing. But TOS is rampant with everything that shouldn't represent an AR owner much less those who do their share on the AR "platform".

And like you I've been around the AR "platform" before it was a "platform". Before the A2, and all the M4 variants. I still call the round hand guards as the "newer" HG's. And for my job I still have to qualify (used to instruct) with the M4 and hump it around the brush every now and then.

Being "old schooled" with the AR I would say that all the add ons are nice but not entirely necessary for the exception of a light. Things and time do change and we need to adapt or find a common (sense) ground with all the stuff that's being added to the AR.

Optics are very nice but not necessary. The screwy part of this is that if you put any optics on you will almost need BUIS in case they go down. Older eyes, like mine are getting, may nearly require magnified optics. Optics are here to stay and most likely be the norm in the close future. I still only use iron sights. Optics should only be mounted on the receiver period. Yes, I've seen them monted even on non-free floated hand guards. I will say that the holo sights, like an EO Tech are a definite plus for rapid target acquisition. Very nice to keep an eye on target and simply bring up the wepon with no need to align sights.

Vertical foregrips are also nice, but less necessary. I feel that vertical foregrips are more a liability than a help. Liability for a combat soldier because it becomes yet something than gets snagged, such as getting in and out of vehicles. A soldier (or LEO) may just grap it at the VFG in an emergency like ducking for cover and where does the barrel point towards when this happens? Pressure on a VFG while taking aimed shots does flex the barrel and/or twist receiver, even if they are mounted on a free floated railed HG, but those are far less noticeable. Also VFG with pressure switches for lights and lasers, not a good idea. Under stress a soldier of LEO and have an ND from sympathetic reflexes while trying to activate a weapon mounted device. I don't see VFG staying around, but it will be a while. If I were I CO I would have all VFG removed from anyone in my command. This is not an old school opinion. You can still achieve a good VFG hold simply by gripping the front of the magwell and mag and your hand is right there in case you need to forcefully remove mag during a (what were the stoppage numbers again) number whatever stoppage. (double feed/feeding stoppage)

Free floated railed HG, ...are awesome. Even in 1978 there has been a reason to have a FF HG. Rails, well because they can. Need a place to attach that light. I like them because it makes having a heavy barrel moot for the average soldier and LEO, not only for a light, but a grenade launcher can be easily swapped from one rifle to another for mission specific reasons w/o the need to re-zero 2 weapons for those soldiers. Not to mention optics and what nots such as a bi-pod. Rails are here to stay until the next best way to attach add ons. One negative issue with FF HG is that it makes the armorer's job that tad bit more complicated and whatever you had attached to it that requires to be zeroed now requires it again if for whatever reason the HG had been removed and replaced.

Lasers, totally unecessary for anyone unless you are in a capacity of an infantry team, squad, or platoon leader, or anyone else who needs to designate a target for someone else who is wearing NVD's. That or you need a laser pointer for a Power Point presentation. As far as a laser pointer for an individual use, a bad habit to start. Lasers for weapons have been around for over 15 years. The only place that they've stayed have been for unit uses, such as I described, and that's about it. If you haven't noticed lasers have been almost completely dropped for LEO use. The reason is because you would want to keep your eyes on target and not follow a dot to a target. Another negative is in military uses, when ever you activate an IR laser at night the enemy definitely saw it too. So it better have been a good reason to light it up or at least move to another location after doing so. The only reason where I can see a good reason to have a laser for non-mil application would be if the shooter in physically incapable to aim using optics or sights to include old tired eyes. Plus is yet something else that needs to be zeroed. Lasers will stay for their specific roles until something better comes along.

Lights, a definitely must. I don't think I need to elaborate. If you do get a weapons light, get one with a cover. I don't care for the remote pressure switch because they are tricky to activate if not on purpose nearly attached to your thumb and it's a maintenance PITA and annoying as all when they start to go TU. My light set up is having the light switch to where I can manipulate it with support hand. There are some negatives but they are far outweighed by the benefits of having a light.

I'm from the old school and my ideal set up for the AR/M16/M4 is with a FF hand guard or monolithic upper with rails, detachable light with IR cover (that I keep off until ready to use) , rail mounted BUIS, EO Tech, a standard or LW barrel, and rail mounted bi-pod . Now the AR wasn't intended to be a "platform" but it is now. It's nice having these options as one may need to switch from one mission to another even for the regular guy. One day a target plinker the next a hunting rifle and in between a home defense weapon.

And it's funny how I've seen a trend for a "light weight" AR that consists of an A1 upper and a pencil barrel. Just like the CAR-15/XM177!

[Pilgrim]

Good topic anyway despite the fuss...

Thanks for the pics Toten.

Not to long ago my dealer took in trade a Colt SP1 that someone had bought in the 70's. It was absolutely mint. No evidence of it having been fired in the last 20 years. I was like a child! But, beside it on the rack was an LMT with all the 'right features' we come to expect in a properly set up AR. If the dealer were to let me have one of these two for a birthday present, than as much as I appreciated the clean lines, balance, historical significance (I used an M16A1 in the Army) and simplicity of the old Colt... It's easier to put lead onto the target with an AR that takes advantage of some modern features.

As to features...

Flat tops. I use my AR's for hunting here in South Georgia. It's hazy here with some shots all the way out to 500 yards. I MUST HAVE OPTICS if I intend to even see the things I'm trying to shoot. It's 'co-witnessed' traditional variable scopes for me. 1-4x20's and 6-18x40's are my favorites.

LaRue SPR scope mounts. These are clearly a gift from God to the person that wants to hit exactly what he is aiming at, before what he is aiming at gets away, or shoots at him first.

Flip up sights. I can live with the standard F marked front sight that will cast a shadow on low power settings, but I must have a flip down rear sight that will make way for a scopes ocular lens.

Light mount. If I can't see it... then I can't shoot it. Weapons lights RULE!

Vertical foregrip. I get on and hit targets faster with a 'well positioned' vertical hand grip.

Collapsible stock with cheek rest. I use the Vltor EMOD. It is a joy being able to get a perfect cheek weld while using optics. I LOVE IT!!!

Match trigger. Well, I guess I don't need one, but I want one on certain types of AR's.

Side mounted sling attachment points. Critical item if ease of extended carry with rapid readiness is important to you.

I like the AR add-ons.

[Toten Kopf]

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