View Full Version : Armored intruders
With the increasing prevalence of home invaders wearing body armor, what is the appropriate cartridge to dispatch these vermin? Over penetration is not an issue. Thanks.
M855 62gr if you've got it, but I'd be willing to bet 99% of intruders are not going to have ballistic trauma plates, thus any rifle fired FMJ shouldn't have any issues going through the perp.
Failure2Stop
10-21-08, 02:35
Level III plates will stop M855. Soft armor will be penetrated by any 5.56 round.
Highly recommend reading the Terminal Ballistics Forum here, which covers hard and soft armor issues.
The best answer to ballistic failure is a shot to the CNS- body shots should never be assumed to work anyway.
The Archangel
10-21-08, 08:21
If you're lucky enough to have your M4 within reach (with optics on and a round in the chamber) when the home invaders kick your door in and rush in, then a couple of shots into the upper chest will slow them down (regardless of what type of armor they're wearing) enough for you to put a couple shots into their face. That usually puts most non-cyborg people down.
However, most people don't have their M4 at arms reach at any given time in the house. My luck, when the front door gets kicked in by the local MS13 chapter, I'll be in my Spongebob boxers, my t-shirt over my nose as I'm changing the three-year old's diapers and the Magpul equiped, AAC Silenced M4, SBR, SPR, 155mm Howitzer will be in the safe and the only weapon that I will have at my immediate disposal will be about 10 lbs of baby poop (WMD). Personally, I would rather get shot in the forehead with a 155mm WP round.
:o
As many of you know, here in Phoenix as well as other border towns we have seen a number of home invasions by Phoenix Police SAU (SWAT) on innocent civillians! No, wait, they have been invasions by Mexican Drug Cartel fire teams dressed in PPD SAU tactical uniforms and weapons. Even more scary is the fact that little known, but not secret AAR's have revealed them to have used police and military tactics in each invasion.
DISCLAIMER: The cartels have yet to "invade"/breach a home of a law-abiding U.S. citizen (mostly black on black hits) but I think it's just a matter of time until they are whacking prosecutors and judges and who knows who else because right now we are doing absolutely nothing significant to stop it. Hell, it's not a question of whether we should confront them at the border . . . they have already crossed and are operating within the southwestern states and beyond. That said, I practically sleep with my M4. I only wish our Mayor and Chief of Police would announce at least a temporary suspension of no-knock warrants. I love and represented law enforcement, but let the pot heads smoke and absent exigent circumsances (such as death of innocent person) quit the no-knocks until we can control the door to the South which is wide open.
Now, my humble opinion. I just stick with TAP 5.56mm and practice 2 + 1 drills. I have a few mags in my bag loaded with ammo that is better against armor/steel, but keep the M4 loaded with my personal favorite overall round. Though not an M4 shooting expert, general rules of pistol tactics apply to this situation as well: shot placement can defeat almost any body armor as long as you train for that possibility and do not wait to see what the first 2 COM hits do.
Rmplstlskn
10-21-08, 09:18
With the increasing prevalence of home invaders wearing body armor, what is the appropriate cartridge to dispatch these vermin? Over penetration is not an issue. Thanks.
I think your user name gives away your perspective on the question... :p
...and I concur.
Rmpl
I had a conversation about this many moons ago after hearing about a house robbery by suspects wearing body armor. Though I have mags for all my rifles loaded with defensive-type ammunition, (TAP 110gr in my SOCOM, TAP 75's in my AR-15, etc), I still use my Benelli as my go-to for things going bump in the night. I'm at a loss to fathom how a hit to center mass with 00 buck would not cause trauma to a person wearing armor - at least enough for a follow up or three to areas less protected...For better or worse, I have my tube stacked - 00, 00, 00, (all TAP), then 300gr SST, SST, SST, 00, 00, 00....I like the combo, (though I have no real formula for it's effectiveness) - am always open to suggestions....
Jay Cunningham
10-21-08, 11:07
Failure Drill.
Parabellum9x19mm
10-21-08, 11:49
With the increasing prevalence of home invaders wearing body armor, what is the appropriate cartridge to dispatch these vermin? Over penetration is not an issue. Thanks.
.50BMG API
....you said over penetration wasn't an issue :D
However, most people don't have their M4 at arms reach at any given time in the house. My luck, when the front door gets kicked in by the local MS13 chapter, I'll be in my Spongebob boxers, my t-shirt over my nose as I'm changing the three-year old's diapers and the Magpul equiped, AAC Silenced M4, SBR, SPR, 155mm Howitzer will be in the safe and the only weapon that I will have at my immediate disposal will be about 10 lbs of baby poop (WMD). Personally, I would rather get shot in the forehead with a 155mm WP round.
:o
That is funny stuff. It so describes my life too. :)
For better or worse, I have my tube stacked - 00, 00, 00, (all TAP), then 300gr SST, SST, SST, 00, 00, 00....I like the combo, (though I have no real formula for it's effectiveness) - am always open to suggestions....
I am too, which is why I'm here. If you believe in the work of the IWBA, and things such as cross-sectional density, then #1 Buck will destroy more tissue and leave a larger wound channel than 00 or 000 Buck. If you can properly manage the recoil of Magnum loadings, there are a couple very good SD/HD loadings in #1 (which if I recall delivers 20 .30 buckshot down-target, and penetrates beyond 12" in Gelatin). I personally load the tube -1 with 7 of #1 Buck and keep the side saddle full with Bernake Slugs. Federal Tactical slugs and 00 Buck are good offerings as well. But when all is said, I now would grab my M4 first when things go crash in the night (bump = flashlight, cell phone, pistol, etc.)
Jay Cunningham
10-21-08, 13:14
I had a conversation about this many moons ago after hearing about a house robbery by suspects wearing body armor. Though I have mags for all my rifles loaded with defensive-type ammunition, (TAP 110gr in my SOCOM, TAP 75's in my AR-15, etc), I still use my Benelli as my go-to for things going bump in the night. I'm at a loss to fathom how a hit to center mass with 00 buck would not cause trauma to a person wearing armor - at least enough for a follow up or three to areas less protected...For better or worse, I have my tube stacked - 00, 00, 00, (all TAP), then 300gr SST, SST, SST, 00, 00, 00....I like the combo, (though I have no real formula for it's effectiveness) - am always open to suggestions....
I am neither an expert at ballistics nor armor, but I am reasonably confident that a hit from 00 buck COM on a threat wearing armor is not going to do anything to them. I also question the utility of loading different types of rounds into your scattergun.
John_Wayne777
10-21-08, 13:29
Jay's on the money....soft armor of level III-A will stop buckshot from a 12 gauge.
I am neither an expert at ballistics nor armor, but I am reasonably confident that a hit from 00 buck COM on a threat wearing armor is not going to do anything to them. I also question the utility of loading different types of rounds into your scattergun.
While I have no basis to disagree with your questioning of my shotgun round selection, (I just like the buckshot followed up with slugs), I will say that I've done a bit of studying on the effects of shotgun pellets and slugs against body armor and completely disagree that "a hit from 00 buck COM on a threat wearing armor is not going to do anything to them".... A study done by Craig Nelson and David Winston on a new poly-shock shotgun cartridge cites a study where even 1 shot fired at 3m was enough to cause a severe wound and even lung hemorrhage under a 12-layer kevlar vest. We are after all talking about a lot of kinetic energy traveling in a 3-15 foot space...
If you have enough time on your hands for technical reading, I can link you to specific case studies, (including NIJ) testing that measured trauma, (even blunt force cavities) from shotgun hits to body armor - especially at close range.
As for stacking rounds, I learned it from an old cop - maybe it's old thinking, but I've trained with this set-up for years, have not had to put it to use thank heavens and it seems right to me for in-home defense.
By the way, one has to go to Level III to begin to even think about stoppage of a 12ga slug - and that's a basic slug. The wound data for a slug to the armor - especially is grim...Move up to an SST and it seems to be even more impressive. Buckshot aside, a 300gr rifled slug moving at 2,000fps and delivering 2600 ft-lbs of energy is a nice back-up to a buckshot surprise...
even 1 shot fired at 3m was enough to cause a severe wound and even lung hemorrhage under a 12-layer kevlar vest.
But what if you're 7-10 yards away. The pellets start to pattern out and give the soft armor a wider area to absorb the energy.
An M4 is just going to go right through soft panals.
Aside from this lack of penetration, the Bird gun falls short of the carbine in Capacity, Recoil/follow up shots, and for sure... flash.
Bird guns aren't the worst choice, but they're no way a better choice than a carbine.
Jay Cunningham
10-21-08, 15:04
I know that the debate over bird gun vs. AR carbine for HD will never go away, which is fine. But honestly, I never thought I'd see someone arguing that a shotty would be better against a threat wearing armor...
:confused:
I don`t think that I will have time to get the AR , rack it and use it, so I am relying in my 1911 .45 that it is at my bed`s table , loaded with Tactical Federal 230gr HST HP rds ... One of those rds at close quarters will stop anything !!!
Jay Cunningham
10-21-08, 15:08
I don`t think that I will have time to get the AR , rack it and use it, so I am relying in my 1911 .45 that it is at my bed`s table , loaded with Tactical Federal 230gr HST HP rds ... One of those rds at close quarters will stop anything !!!
Except an armored threat.
(9mm hardball would be better, I suspect.)
I guess in the end this is all a matter of game theory, "what if" etc. A man in your house with a gun and armor is a SERIOUS THREAT.
I was not kidding before when I said failure drill - practice it at the range with a 3x5 index card and a shot timer.
A study done by Craig Nelson and David Winston on a new poly-shock shotgun cartridge cites a study where even 1 shot fired at 3m was enough to cause a severe wound and even lung hemorrhage under a 12-layer kevlar vest. We are after all talking about a lot of kinetic energy traveling in a 3-15 foot space...
While I do not think a 12 gauge is best against body armor, overall for most people I agree it is the best HD long gun. However, in the specific discussion, I must point out that while it MAY cause a "severe wound" that does not mean it will stop the attacker. Attackers, as we hear over an over in training dogma, are only guaranteed to "stop" after CNS damgage or total loss of blood pressure which the above type of wound may not cause for minutes or perhaps hours. Be ready for the quick follow-up head shot with the SG would be my advice. Also, the talk of the "kinetic energy" of the SG is simply irrelevant to stopping power. Even the biggest slug will not throw someone back Hollywood style or even knock them over. It is a simple but widely held mythological belief. There may be other reasons a person falls down or backward, but it is not the relative low kinetic energy of a SG slug dispersed upon body armor. The wound, if any, would be caused by penetration of the slug pushing the armor into the skin and causing internal organ damage . . . but not instant death, rapid blood loss, or CNS damage.
I don`t think that I will have time to get the AR , rack it and use it, so I am relying in my 1911 .45 that it is at my bed`s table , loaded with Tactical Federal 230gr HST HP rds ... One of those rds at close quarters will stop anything !!!
Josey: how long are you counting on it to take to "stop anything"????? :confused: .45ACP HP is one of, if not the, poorest performers against body armor.
, loaded with Tactical Federal 230gr HST HP rds ... One of those rds at close quarters will stop anything !!!
I was present at one of the first ballistics demos featuring the 230gr HST. No doubt it's an impressive round. In bare gelatin it expanded to such a large diameter that some people could have used it as a hat! :cool:
But nothing deserves an expectation that "one round at close quarters will stop anything," including 5.56mm and even a 12g slug.
Whether or not the attacker is wearing body armor, you shoot to stop the threat. Whether it be 13+ rounds of 9mm, .45, .40, 5.56, etc, you keep shooting the guy until he drops. I personally have never seen a level III vest, even one with trauma plates, take more than a dozen rounds in the chest with at least one getting through. With that being said, my first choice is still the 12ga loaded with 00 Buck and slugs on the sidesaddle. If I see the perps wearing some kind of protection, it's back the bedroom where the arsenal is. I've got few thousand rounds of whatever waiting for them. It would be one hell of a firefight.
I'm not crazy, just prepared for the worst. Oh and BTW, the police have already been called by the time the lead starts flying.
Failure2Stop
10-21-08, 17:37
It is a mistake to think that "X" number of rounds to the torso will be effective at close range with a determined threat, regardless of anticipated body-armor or not. I personally know people that had no idea that they were shot multiple times in the plate until post-mission checks of equipment.
If you are spending 13+ rounds on the same aiming area you are making a poor choice. Even if the 14th and 15th rounds penetrate the armor there is still no guarantee of their ability to cause rapid incapacitation. Taking an even more simple view of the problem- 13 rounds at .20 seconds from shot to shot (decent shooter) will take over 2 seconds (5 shots per second, 300 rounds per minute). Do you really think somebody is going to stay in the same place for 2 seconds and let you just keep plugging away at them? My experience says "no".
I still stand with my first statement- a single well placed round to the CNS following identified failure of the torso shots trumps all caliber debate.
F2S -- Don't know if this is agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but ...
If we accept that we can't count rounds in a fight for purposes of tracking ammo expenditure, then we probably cannot count rounds in a fight for purposes of a planned "x-rounds to body, then x-rounds to head" response. There's also a major difference between x-hits and x-shots-fired ...
Going for an immediate head shot is a lot trickier than most folks think. It can be easy at typical room distances on a square range when you're standing still in a strong upright stance faced with a cowering piece of inanimate unmoving cardboard. Start playing with live humans who move around and whose heads move independent of their bodies. It becomes much trickier to get a hit on the head, and much trickier to get a good hit on a minimally armored part of the head.
People who spend a lot of time practicing "2 to the body, 1 to the head" on a square range do not make head shots under stress against reactive targets or in FOF training. I've even used some students as guinea pigs, working on "failure drills" for 15 minutes and then immediately taking them to a reactive target and simply telling them "engage until it disappears." If you set it up so the first few go down after 1-3 shots in the body, the student will then just dump a mag into the body when finally faced with a target requiring a head shot.
So in my experience, training someone to perform a "body armor drill" under stress requires practice against some kind of reactive target under stress.
As for when the transition from body to head should occur, I don't think you can set a number, for the reasons stated above. Instead, at some point, a little lightbulb will (or won't ...) go on and the shooter will realize that Plan A is not working. That would be a good time to have a Plan B, which in this case may be head shots.
But what if you're 7-10 yards away. The pellets start to pattern out and give the soft armor a wider area to absorb the energy.
An M4 is just going to go right through soft panals.
Aside from this lack of penetration, the Bird gun falls short of the carbine in Capacity, Recoil/follow up shots, and for sure... flash.
Bird guns aren't the worst choice, but they're no way a better choice than a carbine.
Wow! 7 to 10 yards. My hall way is only 5 yards and its the longest passage way in my house. You must live in big house. Seriously IMO my spas 12 with sabot 300gr. slugs, will certainly knock them down for a better shot.;)
lanceriley
10-21-08, 19:59
I have a 10meter hallway
If my dogs note the presence of uninvited folks coming into my home in the course of the night, my arsenal AK and 40 rd mag will welcome them.
F2S -- Don't know if this is agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but ...
If we accept that we can't count rounds in a fight for purposes of tracking ammo expenditure, then we probably cannot count rounds in a fight for purposes of a planned "x-rounds to body, then x-rounds to head" response. There's also a major difference between x-hits and x-shots-fired . . . .
As for when the transition from body to head should occur, I don't think you can set a number, for the reasons stated above. Instead, at some point, a little lightbulb will (or won't ...) go on and the shooter will realize that Plan A is not working. That would be a good time to have a Plan B, which in this case may be head shots.
Todd, we've played math games regarding target engagement for years and much of it is academic . . . yet still fun to rehash from time to time, and conceding you have more experience in stress simulated training, I will maintain that there is merit to the "Gunsite Gangsign" (two index fingers to COM and one finger between the eyes). Of course I realize the difficulty of hitting reactive targets under stress, even moreso the head, and double that the soft area of the skull ensuring a primal brain strike and instant incapacitation. Some instinct may take over in a real fight and I might shoot 6 before my first head shot attempt. I don't know. But I think the 2 + 1 drill for normal BG's and Zombies is okay. I don't know about changing anything for body armor, other than a system that could stop an attacker if he is wearing body armor (concealed or open). The head shot is the only sure way of doing that. So, perhaps I need a great deal more practice on moving head sized targets under stress and in simunitions.
DarrinD : Well, the way I see it, and judging by the way things are around where I live , a quiet place, all residential, normal neighborhood , I also have 7 more rds of the same kind !!! Have you ever seen the stopping power that a 230gr .45 rd will have at short distance ? Even if the rds don`t penetrate , it will stop anybody Of course , I am not counting on a full assault from the Speznaz to my house, but I think that the .45 will do perfectly. I also have a Beretta 90-two 9mm and some other Sigs , also 9mm , but I prefer the .1911 for defense . Maybe I am wrong about this , but I feel comfortable with it ... !!! The AR is in the Studio , not too far from the bedroom , but it is in another room and it is not chamber loaded , all thou the mag is in place.
SOME CONTENT EDITED OUT--CLEAN IT UP BUD
I also think many bad guys even with body armor are going to high tail out of there once they hear the POP POP and feel they are getting hit !
I could be wrong ? but my brother a prosecutor says that all the bad guys he has dealt with are punks and has never heard of one wanting to stand up and fight they would rather run than stand and fight it out with a armed house owner !
so even with body armor do you think they will run
not wanting a answer of its better to drop them :) I know thats the better answer but also I want them out of the house with no rounds fired by them to endanger myself and family so more real world thoughts here of first hit they will run
any people out there with more real world experience any thoughts on this ?
After this final comment I'm exiting this thread on the issue of the merits, demerits, or downright ignorance of certain views regarding the use of pistol calibers when the OP was asking about rifle cartridges.
Yes, I have seen close up and read plenty of AAR's for police shootings involving .45 ACP and the overwhelming majority of data and testimony from witnesses has led me inexorably to the conclusion that Wyatt Earp was correct when he coined the phrase "Dead Man's Seven Seconds." You can blow a BG's heart apart and he can still have enough blood pressure in his body for purposeful attack for 7-15 seconds, no matter how bad your .45 ACP is or your 12 gauge slug. As far as walking up and "blowing his head off" just makes you sound like you're basing your defense plan on Dirty Hairy movies and not reality.
Peace
If the bad guy has on actual real body armour.
Then not even the .308 will stop him. It won't knock the bad guy down either!
Even soft armour will stop the mighty 44 mag.... although bruising will result.
See for yourself... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg
Watch it to the end as Davis shoots the guy again while he stands on one foot.
If I'm up against a bad guy that has on a vest with plates, then I want my AR, I want it loaded with M193 ammo, and I will aim for the head... or take out the legs... or both. In other words, aim for spots that the offending plate isn't.
My tests show that at close range (25 meters), Federal M193 will actually out penetrate British SS109. I assume because of it's higher velocity. Test medium was a bull dozer tread section.
rightwingmaniac
10-21-08, 23:27
If my dogs note the presence of uninvited folks coming into my home in the course of the night, my arsenal AK and 40 rd mag will welcome them.
im with you on that. as soon as my dog barks, i chamber my round, 6.8 style. they will be warmly received and welcomed in my humble abode. bbrropp.
I was just an expression ... perhaps a bad one . I won`t kill anyone if there is no necessity and if it is neutralized effectively already. I am firmly convinced that my 1911 is good enough for a home defense in a scenario of a break in or a robbery , but to each his own. I have my own theories about shooting an AR inside a house and it is going to be difficult at best , in any case ..!!! Everybody thinks differently and should go for what they think it will be best , are trained for , or have more confidence on . My main concern would be to neutralize the BG and stop it effectively ... inside the house, at close quarters , the .45 will do that .
If I shoot someone center of mass with a few rounds and I see no visible change in their attitude then the next rounds are going into the pelvic area to at least stop their ability to move forward. Though I make headshots most of the time in training scenarios they are dodging, bobbing or weaving.
Also for those of you who may think that getting shot with body armor on whill have no impact, then you obviously have never been shot wearing body armor. I have an I know its' effects real well.
lanceriley
10-22-08, 05:13
if somebody is intruding with body armor. you really are in deep trouble .
If I shoot someone center of mass with a few rounds and I see no visible change in their attitude then the next rounds are going into the pelvic area to at least stop their ability to move forward. Though I make headshots most of the time in training scenarios they are dodging, bobbing or weaving.
You're no doubt a better shot than me and have thought this out. However, on a home invasion (OP) body armor BG, at least the ones we've had in Phoenix, he is not going to stop shooting/attacking you after being dropped by several pelvic area shots . . . meaning that while deciding to go for the take-down instead of the instant stop you may have left yourself open to being shot with just such a shot.
I still humbly believe you have three options for a home invader with body armor: (1) Pray he's an LEO with the wrong address or warrant information (uh, no); (2) Bug Out under cover fire or (3) 2+1 Rine Repeat Drill; with 1 Head Shot for every 2-4 COM shots. I like (2), maybe combined with (3)
It should have read they are NOT bobbing, weaving or dodging during training. Were any of these perps hit in the pelvic area during any of these situations? There is alot of blood running around down there in addition to the pelvic girdle. I guess my thinking is the shots that I make are better then the ones I miss. However, I really haven't put alot of thought into this scenario to be honest. My go to rifles would be the Troy with 762 FMJ or one of the carbines loaded with M855.
You're no doubt a better shot than me and have thought this out. However, on a home invasion (OP) body armor BG, at least the ones we've had in Phoenix, he is not going to stop shooting/attacking you after being dropped by several pelvic area shots . . . meaning that while deciding to go for the take-down instead of the instant stop you may have left yourself open to being shot with just such a shot.
I still humbly believe you have three options for a home invader with body armor: (1) Pray he's an LEO with the wrong address or warrant information (uh, no); (2) Bug Out under cover fire or (3) 2+1 Rine Repeat Drill; with 1 Head Shot for every 2-4 COM shots. I like (2), maybe combined with (3)
Stop!
There is a lot of misinformation going on here.
”Level III plates will stop M855.”
NIJ only tests level III armor against 7.62x51 mm M80 FMJ, not against any 5.56 mm/.223 threats. As we have seen--some level III plates will stop M855, some will not. I suggest reading: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19910
”Soft armor will be penetrated by any 5.56 round. ”
TRUE--All soft armor (levels IIa, II, and IIIa) will be penetrated by ANY centerfire rifle round.
”I'm at a loss to fathom how a hit to center mass with 00 buck would not cause trauma to a person wearing armor - at least enough for a follow up or three to areas less protected... ”
I am sorry you are at a loss, but it happens quite frequently—depending on the type of armor, a person may not even be aware they have been hit.
”I am neither an expert at ballistics nor armor, but I am reasonably confident that a hit from 00 buck COM on a threat wearing armor is not going to do anything to them.”
Clearly this depends on the armor, but in general, this is true.
”A study done by Craig Nelson and David Winston on a new poly-shock shotgun cartridge cites a study where even 1 shot fired at 3m was enough to cause a severe wound and even lung hemorrhage under a 12-layer kevlar vest. ”
Gee, a whole 12 layers. Typically soft armor uses substantially more layers--like 2 to 3 times thicker. We have not seen problems on 12 ga buckshot hits against level IIIa armor.
”By the way, one has to go to Level III to begin to even think about stoppage of a 12ga slug - and that's a basic slug. ”
Actually, no. There were some 3” Brenneke’s that punched through some thin level IIIa panels a few years ago, but in general, depending on the slug and armor type, we have seen many slugs stopped by level IIIa armor.
”I don`t think that I will have time to get the AR , rack it and use it, so I am relying in my 1911 .45 that it is at my bed`s table , loaded with Tactical Federal 230gr HST HP rds ... One of those rds at close quarters will stop anything !!! ”
Obviously this statement is utterly in error.
”I personally have never seen a level III vest, even one with trauma plates, take more than a dozen rounds in the chest with at least one getting through. ”
I guess you have not seen much. Here is an example of level III armor taking substantially more than a dozen hits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADwpybJlCEQ. We routinely shoot substantially more than a dozen shots into many of the level III armor plates we test. Heck, for that matter, many of the level llla soft armor panels we shoot can take several dozen hits.
”I still stand with my first statement- a single well placed round to the CNS following identified failure of the torso shots trumps all caliber debate. ”
ABSOLUTELY !!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, regarding pelvic shots, Dr. Fackler has written the following commentary:
Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:
-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.
The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.
Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”
There are no doubts regarding serious mortality rates with pelvic wounds, the issue is whether wounds to he pelvis offer rapid enough incapacitation to reliably stop an adversary during a lethal force encounter. Obviously use a pelvic shot if it is the only target available, but it may not be the best primary target or failure to stop response target.
SwatDawg15
10-22-08, 16:58
Outstanding post DocGKR
Doc Roberts,
So I guess the next logical question would be what shot should be taken in the event that center of mass shots appear to be ineffective? Should someone aim at the head area and hope that they hit or should they try for the pelvic area? When I am at the Casa my primary GTG is the carbine or rifle and then the pistol.
Stop!
There is a lot of misinformation going on here.
NIJ only tests level III armor against 7.62x51 mm M80 FMJ, not against any 5.56 mm/.223 threats. As we have seen--some level III plates will stop M855, some will not. I suggest reading: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19910
TRUE--All soft armor (levels IIa, II, and IIIa) will be penetrated by ANY centerfire rifle round.
I am sorry you are at a loss, but it happens quite frequently—depending on the type of armor, a person may not even be aware they have been hit.
Clearly this depends on the armor, but in general, this is true.
Gee, a whole 12 layers. Typically soft armor uses substantially more layers--like 2 to 3 times thicker. We have not seen problems on 12 ga buckshot hits against level IIIa armor.
Actually, no. There were some 3” Brenneke’s that punched through some thin level IIIa panels a few years ago, but in general, depending on the slug and armor type, we have seen many slugs stopped by level IIIa armor.
Obviously this statement is utterly in error.
I guess you have not seen much. Here is an example of level III armor taking substantially more than a dozen hits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADwpybJlCEQ. We routinely shoot substantially more than a dozen shots into many of the level III armor plates we test. Heck, for that matter, many of the level llla soft armor panels we shoot can take several dozen hits.
ABSOLUTELY !!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, regarding pelvic shots, Dr. Fackler has written the following commentary:
There are no doubts regarding serious mortality rates with pelvic wounds, the issue is whether wounds to he pelvis offer rapid enough incapacitation to reliably stop an adversary during a lethal force encounter. Obviously use a pelvic shot if it is the only target available, but it may not be the best primary target or failure to stop response target.
My go to gun is my .308 PTR-91 16" carbine. I have not done alot of ballistics research, but my thinking is if one were to start unloading on the bad guy @ center mass close range, it would have to at least knock him down, right? That's a ton of energy (lierally)! Plated or not. Am I wrong?
Dr. Roberts,
As always, thank you for taking the time to post your conclusions and observations regarding this thread topic.
Jay Cunningham
10-23-08, 05:12
My go to gun is my .308 PTR-91 16" carbine. I have not done alot of ballistics research, but my thinking is if one were to start unloading on the bad guy @ center mass close range, it would have to at least knock him down, right? That's a ton of energy (lierally)! Plated or not. Am I wrong?
Think of your high school physics classes. Does shooting the gun knock you down?
Think of your high school physics classes. Does shooting the gun knock you down?
The Katar of course speaks the truth concerning the basic law of physics that "for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction."
The belief that firearms can propel BG's through the air and dispatch them instantly with single hits to the chest is propagated by Hollywood Movie Physics not, as The Katar points out, basic laws of high school physics.
Great thread and information! Learn something new every day is certainly in play here...Thanks to all who have contributed!
lanceriley
10-23-08, 11:34
I do have an 11.5incher with a mag beside it but. I think my get to go gun will be my 1911
a1fabweld--As accurately noted by others above, your assumption is wrong.
Iraqgunz--Indoors CQB is generally a very close-up afair; I have not seen too many residential structures where shots are going to be much longer than 7-10 yards, often much closer. At those distances, a CNS shot has a much higher likelihood of connecting...
lanceriley
10-23-08, 11:56
it's not easy to hit Cns when you're under stress
It is not easy to do anything under stress, that is why training and mindset are so important. However, look at your house--how long a shot are you going to need to make? I bet a shot to the head at those distances is within the realm of reason for folks with at least a modicum of experience.
Think of your high school physics classes. Does shooting the gun knock you down?
True.
However, the gun impulse is less due to the gas system/slide unlock/recoil spring, etc (speaking of most CQB or defensive guns) spreading it out over time. So not exactly a fair comparison, but in most cases still won't knock you back.
however
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQJSZs-euZU
Head shots under stress: I've seen Master-class competitive shooters miss heads at less than 7yd under the mild stress of a local pistol match. That's on a non-threatening, stationary, 2-dimensional target. I'm not saying head shots are bad or wrong, and I've made them plenty of times under stress in FOF ... but it's a lower probability hit than some realize.
Recoil and action/reaction: eguns is exactly right, the force being applied over a longer period of time (and a much larger surface area; cf. contact points between rifle and shooter with diameter of a projectile) plays a role. So too does the fact that the shooter is (presumably) balanced and expecting the recoil while the target may not be. That doesn't mean a 5.56 or even slug has the ability to lift and man off his feet and throw him to the ground, of course.
There are no doubts regarding serious mortality rates with pelvic wounds, the issue is whether wounds to he pelvis offer rapid enough incapacitation to reliably stop an adversary during a lethal force encounter. Obviously use a pelvic shot if it is the only target available, but it may not be the best primary target or failure to stop response target.
I remember well when the "reverse failure drill" came about. The thought was that the mighty .45 ball would crack the pelvis and immobilize the opponent. As the good doctor pointed out, it doesn't pan out very well.
And why do people seem to think that they'll be able to hit such an ill-defined target as a pelvis instead of a well-defined head?
white spaniard
10-23-08, 13:51
This may be a little off topic but my neighbor was commenting about BG with body armor and he has come to the conclusion that his M1 Garand with armor piercing ammo will do the trick, or his AR with incendiary ammo. How does armor piercing and incendiary effect body armor?
white spaniard I would pray he never shoots that ammo in my direction if you are a close neighbor :)
I bet Mall Ninja guy gecko whatever his name is can beat any intruder with pure stealth and his 338 lapua
can see it now as he flying through the air doing a flip shooting :)
white spaniard--what kind of armor is the question. As noted, any centerfire rifle caliber will go through soft armor. With hard armor, the .30-06 M2 AP load fired by the M1 Garand will defeat Level III armor, but will be stopped by level IV armor.
Incendiary? Is your neighbor an ignorant clown? Incendiary does not defeat armor by itself...
Being a hollow point, would TAP penetrate any body armor or just mushroom against it? I typically don't like to rotate ammunition, but should I consider it?
Hornady .223/5.56 mm 75 gr TAP uses an OTM projectile. As noted, since this is a centerfire rifle projectile, it will zip right through soft armor (level IIIa, II, IIa). Since it is not an AP round, it will be stopped by both Level III and IV hard armor.
white spaniard
10-24-08, 22:03
white spaniard--what kind of armor is the question. As noted, any centerfire rifle caliber will go through soft armor. With hard armor, the .30-06 M2 AP load fired by the M1 Garand will defeat Level III armor, but will be stopped by level IV armor.
Incendiary? Is your neighbor an ignorant clown? Incendiary does not defeat armor by itself...
I don't know too much about body armor but my neighbor says that incediary ammo when it hits a hard object it heats up to 3000-4000 degrees going through body armor like butter that is what my neighbor says anyway. My self I have an AR with 75 Gr Tap ammo besides my bed at night my neighbor on the other hand says that is not enough to do any damage his words not mine:confused:
If incendiary projectiles slice through armor "like butter", then why do they make AP ammo? Better yet, why do the need to make API ammo? Your neighbor is a fool.
Worried about home invasion robbery? The sound of a 12 gauge being racked with 00 buck rounds in the middle of the night will solve your problem.
lanceriley
10-25-08, 04:53
Worried about home invasion robbery? The sound of a 12 gauge being racked with 00 buck rounds in the middle of the night will solve your problem.
hahahaha I guess that would be very scary
Worried about home invasion robbery? The sound of a 12 gauge being racked with 00 buck rounds in the middle of the night will solve your problem.
A beautiful sound, but not necessarily true. There are some that would say it gives away your position and that you should be C1 anyway. The only "rack" sound a bad guy will hear is if he survives the first shot - he'll be hearing the preamble for his follow-up... ;)
Failure2Stop
10-25-08, 12:14
Worried about home invasion robbery? The sound of a 12 gauge being racked with 00 buck rounds in the middle of the night will solve your problem.
Would the sound of racking a 20 gauge with #7 sound any different?
Is the sound of a closing bolt on an AR any less intimidating?
Where does one find the statistical data of the intimidation factor of different weapon manipulations? Could a skillful reduation of a Type III stoppage significantly deter an attacker?
Acousitc suppression consistently fails in gunfights, I'm not too sure I would recommend noise as an effective deterrant to aggressors that are taking the time and expense to armor themselves.
Seriously, can we put this over-used and unproven myth to bed once and for all?
Jay Cunningham
10-25-08, 13:12
I'm going to give ddemis the benefit of the doubt here that the little "wink" icon he posted in his subject meant he was kidding around.
I hope.
Penetration = Marlin 1895 Guide Gun with this:
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-26/45-dsh-70-pls-P-405-Grain-WLNGC/Detail.bok
Seriously though, I actually had my Marlin 1895GS as a HD gun while I was building my AR. However, I had it loaded with 300 grain JHP handloads that would only shoot through my house, not my entire neighborhood (like the load listed above).
ETA: Little plug for the 1895GS: This is my favorite rifle in my entire battery. Handy, versatile, and incredibly powerful. With mild(er) loads, I can put five hits on target in under 5 seconds at 50m. With a Pachmyr recoil pad, T-Rex/Mutant/Alien killing loads are no problem either. The only thing better than shooting it is watching other people shoot it :)
tumbleweed1002
10-25-08, 18:29
I feel confident in my super 90 and 9rds of 00buck rapid fire into the torso.It also allows quick aim ajustment if shots north of the sholders are required.
Thanks Katar, I was just kidding! Still, even if the bad guys have armor a hit from the classic 12 will probaly let them know it is time to leave.
lanceriley
10-25-08, 23:31
well... if the armored intruder remains unfazed with a shot of 00.
then I better run. he's a lot tougher than me to take that shot :D
Gentlemen, as noted above, depending on the armor type, a center of mass hit of 12 ga 00 buckshot may not do much to cause distress, let alone injury to an assailant.
lanceriley
10-26-08, 02:08
yes. It's agreed
but the question remains. anybody tough enough to try it? I know Im not.:D
yes. It's agreed
but the question remains. anybody tough enough to try it? I know Im not.:D
I AM !!!! :) hehehehe
as long as I can also shoot back and you are wearing whatever I wake you up in !!!!
and of course I wont tell you when I am doing it etc.. OH and I am going to bring about 4 or so friends also in armor not sure if they will bug out or not ?
would you then take those odds ?
I guess myself I would not take that bet then :)
Think of your high school physics classes. Does shooting the gun knock you down?
BUT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN MOVIES!!!!:D <obviously kidding.
Typically when shot humans will not fall down right away. Study Vietnam and drugged up enemy.
When I've been awoken, I'm already in a pissed off mood. Hearing a "bump" to awake me, would probably have my adrenalin rushing. I fairly confident giving the pissed off Adrenalin rush, i wont be able to make head shots. I'm in agreement with Iraqgunz on shooting to the pelvis.
It is my understanding that velocity is key in penetration of body armor or any type of "cover material". It is also my understanding that this is why the 5.56 will out perform the 7.62 in regards to defeating body armor. same thing with the 9mm and 45. DocGKR correct me if I'm wrong please on this thought.
The reason that a shotgun wound won't hurt has much has several rifle rounds or pistol rounds is because of the way the body armor will absorb the shock. The body armor can and will take the in initial hit and spread it across the armor before you even feel it, making what you feel less.
Rob
lanceriley
10-26-08, 04:44
you mean you'll take 1 body shot w/ body armor from a 00? try it at the range. :D Even just to try it.
Im not even thinking of realiating just yet. the idea to be shot with 00 even with body armor. it's not easy to swallow
I AM !!!! :) hehehehe
as long as I can also shoot back and you are wearing whatever I wake you up in !!!!
and of course I wont tell you when I am doing it etc.. OH and I am going to bring about 4 or so friends also in armor not sure if they will bug out or not ?
would you then take those odds ?
I guess myself I would not take that bet then :)
not at the range :) hehehehe
I think I am rigging my yard with claymores :) that should stop em :)
Whether you "feel" a hit all depends on the type of armor--a hit with 12 ga. 00 to level IIIa is a whole lot different than getting hit with the same round while protected by level IV armor...
What is important in regards to penetrating armor is:
1. Armor type/rating
2. Armor construction
3. Projectile construction
4. Projectile velocity
And with all due respect to the good Doctor, for purposes of live body armor demos:
5. Whether or not the "tester" has a phone book between himself and the vest.
For those of you who've seen a certain video of a certain gunwriter trying to recreate Richard Davis's demo, you know what I mean. :cool:
I really don't think it changes the response in a home invasion scenario whether the assailant is wearing body armor or not. First, you may or may not know he's wearing armor. Thus, I would suggest that your standard training is better than trying to determine if the BG invader had armor on or not. For me that means 2 (COM shots)+ 1's (Head) with my LE M4 OR pistol; or 1+1's (COM then high/head) with my SG. COM then head or COM then pelvis if available. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. It still defaults back to shot placement, and since my training regimen would apply equally to armored or unarmored assailants I think it has a better chance of holding up under stress.?
lanceriley
10-26-08, 17:43
wel... we'l just have to shoot shoot and shoot till the threat goes down.
from where I am body armor is really hard to come by. Our City police force only has 6 body armor. buying is not an option. nobody is importing these stuffs. too much govt red tape
Based on all of my gunfighting experience (zero), I'd say 2+1 is wishful thinking and not even necessarily the best approach. Hopefully some of the IPs will speak up based on their knowledge & experience, but my thought process is as follows:
Hitting the head is harder than hitting COM. We can argue about how much harder but I think we all agree it's harder. Otherwise, we'd just go for head shots from the beginning.
Two shots to the chest is no guarantee of success, especially with a handgun.
It takes human beings time to die/stop. If you're shooting fast, you might have had a significant effect on the threat but he hasn't reacted or fallen yet.
It takes time for your brain to register whether body shots are working or not. If you're shooting fast, you might easily get off more than two shots before your brain has caught up.
In the time it takes for you to stop, assess, and make a head shot you can probably put 2-4 more shots in the torso. That's likely to be more effective than one attempted head shot, especially if the attacker isn't actually wearing armor.
Basically, "2+1" if you can actually be that conscious in your shot selection under stress might not be the best solution under every circumstance.
In terms of how fast the brain processes, I can give an example from my own relatively low-stress practice this past week. Long story short, using the turning target system at the range I'd cut a small paper target laterally, leaving the bottom 2/3 hanging by a thread. So I set the target to 1-second exposure (which is actually closer to 1.5 seconds due to turning time, etc.) and tried to shoot that last thread. I was getting two shots off per cycle. It took 3 or 4 runs before I finally hit the last little corner, but when I did it was the first shot that took down the target. Nonetheless, I fired the second shot because my brain hadn't caught up yet. It was clear, watching from "autopilot" inside my head, that the target was hit by shot #1 but that didn't process through to a stop shooting command fast enough (probably around a fifth or quarter of a second).
Based on all of my gunfighting experience (zero), I'd say 2+1 is wishful thinking and not even necessarily the best approach. Hopefully some of the IPs will speak up based on their knowledge & experience, but my thought process is as follows:
Hitting the head is harder than hitting COM. We can argue about how much harder but I think we all agree it's harder. Otherwise, we'd just go for head shots from the beginning.
Two shots to the chest is no guarantee of success, especially with a handgun.
It takes human beings time to die/stop. If you're shooting fast, you might have had a significant effect on the threat but he hasn't reacted or fallen yet.
It takes time for your brain to register whether body shots are working or not. If you're shooting fast, you might easily get off more than two shots before your brain has caught up.
In the time it takes for you to stop, assess, and make a head shot you can probably put 2-4 more shots in the torso. That's likely to be more effective than one attempted head shot, especially if the attacker isn't actually wearing armor.
Basically, "2+1" if you can actually be that conscious in your shot selection under stress might not be the best solution under every circumstance.
I agree with most everything you say. However, I don't train or really believe in "stop and assess." When I practice 2+1, I really mean 2+1+2+1+2+1 etc, or 3 or 4+1 etc. until the threat is stopped. I can shoot quickly enough to keep coming back to COM whether I make the head shot or not. If it's clearly not there I think I would keep shooting COM but I don't know how I would react under stress . . . I might just dump my entire mag into COM despite my 2+1+2+1 practice drills. I would like to shoot on a timer and see how many COM hits I'm "missing out on" by practicing the 2+1 and repeat drill. And to be clear, my primary concern is HD at relatively exteme short distances - 10-20 feet maximum. Beyond that I stick to COM shot practice exclusively.
When I practice 2+1, I really mean 2+1+2+1+2+1 etc, or 3 or 4+1 etc. until the threat is stopped.
"2+1" and "3 or 4 +1" are very different things.
"2+1 then 2+1 then 2+1" is really questionable. Once you've decided COM shots are not the answer, why go back to COM shots unless you're incapable of shooting a secondary and tertiary target zone? That approach also has you constantly changing target, which is going to have a deleterious effect on your overall shot placement.
The only times I've reverted back to COM doing FOF stuff have been when the threat disappeared for some reason. Whether it moved behind cover or was left behind after I switched to a new threat, I've gone back to COM (or CO-whatever is available) when coming back to the target. This is probably because I'm not keeping track of who's been shot in the body vs. who's been shot in the head.
At this point, I'm bowing out of this discussion until an IP or two chime in.
At this point, I'm bowing out of this discussion until an IP or two chime in.
You may not bow out quite yet, as we are merely discussing opinions, not proclaiming any Gospel. I am interested in your training regimen regarding when, if ever, during a FOF or real life violent encounter would you change your primary target from COM to something else? Is it one of those things that you only know when you're in the middle of the real thing? That may be the question that only the IP's can answer . . . .?
I am interested in your training regimen regarding when, if ever, during a FOF or real life violent encounter would you change your primary target from COM to something else?
When my brain catches up to the action and says, "Dude, shoot the head." It's happened in FOF on the first shot (i.e., I've drawn and fired right at the head), it's happened after half a dozen or more body shots, and everywhere in between. It all depends on distance, type of threat, movement, cover, etc.
It seems this thread actually belongs in the training & tactics forum.
A moderator on this board has publicly written about the dramatic increase in reliable immediate incapacitation noted by his west coast LE agency when they began to train their officers to always use CNS targeting for close range (IIRC, under 7 yds or so) lethal force encounters. I can't find the post at the moment, but I believe they had several dozen OIS incidents with immediate stops after implementing the new regimen.
Think of your high school physics classes. Does shooting the gun knock you down?
Katar, not to be a smart ass, but I never took h.s. physics. My priority back then was cutting class to load up & go surfing. Anyway, I have never been shot by anything nor have I shot anyone. All I have to go off of in my limited experience is ballistic velocity/energy stats. From what I know, for common ammo, 5.56 puts out around 1200-1300 ftlbs, .45 puts out 350-500 ftlbs, & .308 puts out 2500-2700 ftlbs approx. Without getting hitech with y'all, I would imagine the .308 would have more impact & inflict more damage than the others I mentioned. Please educate me.
losbronces
10-26-08, 23:41
Katar, not to be a smart ass, but I never took h.s. physics. My priority back then was cutting class to load up & go surfing. Anyway, I have never been shot by anything nor have I shot anyone. All I have to go off of in my limited experience is ballistic velocity/energy stats. From what I know, for common ammo, 5.56 puts out around 1200-1300 ftlbs, .45 puts out 350-500 ftlbs, & .308 puts out 2500-2700 ftlbs approx. Without getting hitech with y'all, I would imagine the .308 would have more impact & inflict more damage than the others I mentioned. Please educate me.
There is a video linked in this thread that shows a guy with body armor being shot with a 7.62 NATO round at close range while standing on one leg--he does not go down.
That's Alexander Jason (former managing editor of the IWBA Journal) getting shot by unethical cretin Richard Davis (former President of Second Chance Body Armor): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg
Whether you "feel" a hit all depends on the type of armor--a hit with 12 ga. 00 to level IIIa is a whole lot different than getting hit with the same round while protected by level IV armor...
What is important in regards to penetrating armor is:
1. Armor type/rating
2. Armor construction
3. Projectile construction
4. Projectile velocity
Thank you for correcting me. Understood 1 & 2 as the other key players. didn't even remotely think about 3 till you mentioned it. one of those "DOPE!" moments.
do/can/will/plausible that FMJ rounds out of a 5.56 will penetrate armor? When a M4 style weapon is your primary defensive weapon is there a round that you like best for the firearm?
Just looking to see if I should switch away from the 75GR black box TAP, or maybe have a spare mag loaded with something different for armored personnel?
Is there any one brand of body armor you see that regularly out performs competitors?
Thanks again for your time DocGKR
Rob
"do/can/will/plausible that FMJ rounds out of a 5.56 will penetrate armor?"
Like any center-fire rifle cartridge, 5.56 mm FMJ will penetrate all soft armor (ie. IIIa, II, IIa), but will not penetrate hard level III and IV armor any better than 5.56 mm OTM, PT, JHP, or JSP ammo.
"When a M4 style weapon is your primary defensive weapon is there a round that you like best for the firearm?"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
"Is there any one brand of body armor you see that regularly out performs competitors?"
For soft armor: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19912; for hard armor: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19910.
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