View Full Version : 178 gr ELDs in .308 Winchester
Pappabear and I got out Sunday and got to shoot 30 rounds of the 178 gr ELDs in .308. We ran them directly against our 175gr SMK load both in MEN .308 brass with Varget and 210m primers.
The 178s have a weird ogive that forced me to use our gas gun seating die to get them seated deep enough to get good neck tension/contact. That caused some load compression.
Both bullets chrono'd about the same at 2549 fps out of a 20" bolt gun. I expected the 178s to shoot faster with the load compression, but it was not the case.
Dope on both bullets tracked similarly out to 1300 yards. I expected to see the 178 really out fly the 175 smk, but It wasn't the case with this load.
We're going to repeat with Lapua Brass next shoot.
Which drag model did you use for your dope Mark?
Surprising both loads tracked similarly.
We didn't use a drag model, we used the BULLET DONT LIE model. But we had a very strange day. Big winds that must have pushed bullets everywhere. We had the greatest variations we had ever seen. More than just using MEN brass which has proven consistent in the past.
We had bullets drop 15 feet short, then 2 dance around or hit target at 1,000 yards. It was a crazy day, some days no conclusions can be made.
We sctached the day. The only thing astonishing, where the velocities were exactly the same for SMK's and 178 ELD's. It shouldn't surprise as 175 vs 178, but still it often does not correlate.
Week2 with Laplau brass may provide interesting. We talked about bumping up our 308 load to squeak some increases velocity.
Sunday, we shall see.
PB
Thanks for the info. I've got some 178 gr ELD's but haven't loaded them up yet.
Look forward to results with Lapua brass.
diving dave
04-10-18, 08:41
What twist in your rig? I have an older 1/12 barrel, played with a few loads. I'm getting the best results with Lapua brass, 44 grns of Varget and a Berger 168 Hybrid. running about 2750.....8.8 mils and I'm on at 1000
Jwknutson17
04-10-18, 08:55
PB, I'm curious to what you and Markm find with the Lapua brass also. I have about 400 of those 178gr ELDx pills sitting here to load up into federal brass. Was once fired FGMM brass is it's what I have on hand. Using CCI primers and I have a 8lb jug of Varget sitting here. My APC comes back from KAC Thursday so I'll be putting rounds through that, the 16" 308 Fix, and also a 20" Rem 700 to see what kind of results I get. I've been seeing really good results with the 200gr ELDx the last few weeks in my 300wm, so I'm hoping these 178s hand loads perform the same.
Both .308s are 12 twist. I wonder if I wasn't jumping them way too far. I know my Remmy has a leade from hell... and I sat them pretty deep for initial testing.
My R700 is also 1-12, 20" and seems to hate any jump more than .030.
Both .308s are 12 twist. I wonder if I wasn't jumping them way too far. I know my Remmy has a leade from hell... and I sat them pretty deep for initial testing.
I need to give you one of my AI mags and see if we can make them longer and still fit in mag.
PB
We didn't use a drag model, we used the BULLET DONT LIE model. But we had a very strange day. Big winds that must have pushed bullets everywhere. We had the greatest variations we had ever seen. More than just using MEN brass which has proven consistent in the past.
We had bullets drop 15 feet short, then 2 dance around or hit target at 1,000 yards. It was a crazy day, some days no conclusions can be made.
PB
The 178s are longer than 175 TMKs. You might be better served with a 1-in-10 twist barrel.
The LMT MWS might love them. It loves the 168's. I have no magic wand to make my 1/12 to 1/10, or I would. I still have 8,000 rounds to shoot the CL barrel out of FN SPR, so that might be a while. But we'll try. :)
PB
I will say that if you are using a deep throat 700, my experience with the 178 AMAX and BTHP is that these bullets want to be seated close to the lands. As in 2.900 - 2.925 after measuring with Hornady COAL tool. The bottom of my action is notched to feed this OAL and I'm running Alpha magazines. SMKs can be seated at 2.8, no problem jumping those a mile. But there's the difference between tangent and secant ogive from what I've seen.
Pappabear ordered another LE Wilson seating die for these bullets. We shot some Sunday that were beyond AI mag length. I think we say a few examples of them out assing the 175 smk at 1000 and 1300, but we had so mamy equipment issues, it was painful... gas blocks coming loose, scopes acting up... It was a goat rope tournament.
These shot much better out of Pappabears LMT MWS. He shot a good group... all touching, with horizontal stringing. Single digit SDs on two powder lots.
We had an old lot and new lot of powder. 4064 I think. The old shot 100 I say one hundred feet per second faster. naturally we are out of the hot powder. We hope to end up around 2,500+ FPS if we can keep primers in.
Jwknutson17
05-28-18, 18:27
Shot a ladder test today with my 16" Q the Fix rifle. Bartlein Barrel. With the 178gr ELD-X being .18 inches longer then the SMK 175 gr, I was assuming that I needed to start lower in charge then what the 175 smk's take. Well... good thing I did. I was seeing pressure signs at 42.2gr or Varget. With 175gr SMK I usually start my ladder at 41.6 and work up. After 4 shots in I had flat primers and super hard bolt. So I worked back to 40.2 grains and shot it from there.
Federal Once Fired FGMM brass. CCI Large Rifle Primers. Trimmed case to 2.005. 2.800 COAL. Varget Powder. KAC QDC suppressor. Results:
40.2 2367
40.4 2368
40.6 2375
40.8 2373
41.0 2359 (and another to verify (2358)
41.2 2378
41.4 2397
41.6 2412
41.8 2423 (another to verify 2412)
42.0 2426 (another to verify 2421)
42.2 2446 OVER PRESSURE SIGNS
Factory 175gr FGMM out of this gun was at 2510 +/-
The first 4 rounds in the ladder test had an SD of 3.8 and ES of 8. Could have just stopped there. :cool: The 5th round was lower at 2359 followed by the 6th round right where the first 4 were at. I shot 41.0 gr again to verify and I was at 2358 (only 1 fps off the first 41 gr round) So I knew this was a good number. I also shot the 41.8 and 42.0 again as the first go around only showed a 3 fps difference. Even though I want the extra velocity, I think I am going to load up some rounds in the 40.6-7 range. I dont want to load anything up close to over pressure signs that may come back and bite me on a hot day. Saving some wear/tear, powder, and living with the lower FPS, I think will be better for this gun in the long run. If I want to move heavy pills 3k fps, Im picking up one of my 300 win mags or 300 wsm.
What are others thoughts on these results above?
It seems little bit slow. My 16 LMT MWS runs the 168 Noslers in Men brass at 2517 fps, and the 178 ELD's at 2465 in a gas gun. But brass can have huge impact. We have to load these short to fit in a KAC magazine.
I will say with 100% confidence , pick up a 300WM, life is good there. It is such a big step up in performance with these new ELD bullets. We saw a greater performance jump in the ELD's with 300 vs our 308's.
We ran the 300's with ELD 220's at 2871 with 74.5 H1K with RWS brass which is beefy, so the load was a little more spicy. The 225 with Norma ran slower at 2762 fps, neither suck for those big bullets.
Good luck brother.
PB
Jwknutson17
05-28-18, 20:56
It seems little bit slow. My 16 LMT MWS runs the 168 Noslers in Men brass at 2517 fps, and the 178 ELD's at 2465 in a gas gun. But brass can have huge impact. We have to load these short to fit in a KAC magazine.
I will say with 100% confidence , pick up a 300WM, life is good there. It is such a big step up in performance with these new ELD bullets. We saw a greater performance jump in the ELD's with 300 vs our 308's.
We ran the 300's with ELD 220's at 2871 with 74.5 H1K with RWS brass which is beefy, so the load was a little more spicy. The 225 with Norma ran slower at 2762 fps, neither suck for those big bullets.
Good luck brother.
PB
Yes 300 win is my favorite. I do have a few. They are thumpers. I get the 200 gr pills moving 3020 fps or so. The ELDx is a touch faster then the accubond.
In the Hornady book I'm right at velocities published for the ELDX and thought it was just slow, as they use a 22 inch barrel as a baseline I believe, and I'm right at it with a 16 inch barrel. But according to the grains they publish, I'm right there. My APC shoots em faster then my father's 20 inch Rem 700, and also faster then this barrel. I see right at 2600 +/- with Federal Gold Metal Match also in my 16 inch APC. With the QDC suppressor. Not sure why the SR25 slings them so fast. Here is the load data for the 178gr ELDx in the attachment. I think what's hurting me is the OAL max at 2.800 in the Pmag.. it's taking up that case capacity with that longer bullet. It starts crunching powder in the 41 and change powder weights.
Not sure if this pic shows up below but Varget with 178gr ELDx the max is 42.4 gr at 2450 fps. This seems slow to me as a max with these pills. And what I believe is a 22 inch barrel baseline??
52214
Man oh man, that short gas gun outrunning long bolt guns can make you scratch your head. Our last lot of Varget is slower than our new lot, which just sucked. We are going to have to bump our new 308 Varget load up. I know all load data published is conservative because such variations in lot to lot powder.
Sorry mis understood your 300 WM mention.
PB
We had an old lot and new lot of powder. 4064 I think. The old shot 100 I say one hundred feet per second faster. naturally we are out of the hot powder. We hope to end up around 2,500+ FPS if we can keep primers in.
Pappabear, what load are you using for 4064? I'm working up a load for my MWS.
Pappabear, what load are you using for 4064? I'm working up a load for my MWS.
We switched 4064 lots and lost 100 fps. I feel like our charge weight would be somewhat worthless with the huge variance in lot velocities. I think the load was in the mid 42 grain range. I could check if you want.
We switched 4064 lots and lost 100 fps. I feel like our charge weight would be somewhat worthless with the huge variance in lot velocities. I think the load was in the mid 42 grain range. I could check if you want.
Sure. I need a good place start.
Sure. I need a good place start.
41.5-42.0 is a good gas gun starting load, and where I started on all 3 of Pappabear's LMT MWS barrels. Even if you have a faster lot of powder, you'll be safe there. 44s are where you're getting into bolt gun pressure levels with 4064.
41.5-42.0 is a good gas gun starting load, and where I started on all 3 of Pappabear's LMT MWS barrels. Even if you have a faster lot of powder, you'll be safe there. 44s are where you're getting into bolt gun pressure levels with 4064.
Thanks. I'll start there and see what I get.
Thanks. I'll start there and see what I get.
Depends on the Barrel too. Pappabear had a barrel that just shot really hot... even on the starter load around 42.0.
I never could get a decent load for my FN SPR 1:12. They were actually pretty bad. I eventually gave up on them and stuck with 178 AMAXs for longer ranges. I might revisit them when my custom rig comes in (hopefully next week :) )
I have a FN SPR and it shoots MOA, but we run Varget for our Bolt guns. What custom are you getting?
PB
Whiskey&beer
06-28-18, 12:53
With the 178 eld’s out of a gas gun, how are the speeds? I haven’t tried them but shoot the 168’s. I thought about trying the 178’s but haven’t yet, thinking since they’re so long it would screw with case capacity and I wouldn’t be able to get the velocity up to really take advantage of the bc.
We're taking another pass at the 178s. I loaded just under 250 of them yesterday, so I hope this load is decent. :blink:
Trying them with IMR 4064 in MEN brass.
https://i.imgur.com/3HZas9d.jpg
Hammertime
08-07-18, 21:53
I prefer 1:10 or 1:11 in my .308s. The 1:12s don't seem to handle the higher BC bullets nearly as well. Also, don't get too crazy on the FPS, i'd rather save my barrels and enjoy them a bit longer than pushing the pressure mark. 2350-2400 is fine for me. If you can get more, great. The .308 bullet options have also come a long way. I mean BCs available in the .7xx range are pretty awesome for this old cartridge. Just sold an AR10 and hoping to get a bolt gun build going in .308 or 6.5 soon. Cheers.
BOOM
Interesting thread and may save me the energy of messing with them. I thought about it, but have enough on my hands working on the Nosler RDFs now and having very mixed results with them. The SMKs seem to always shoot at least decently no matter what...not sure the fiddling is worth the 10% or less BC gain with some of these newer designs.
Well well well we slung Mark's new fodder with the 178's for the LMT MWS. We were able to get 2525fps with 178 ELD's and they shoot fine. We only tried one group for accuracy and I shot MOA and I shot the group in about 5 seconds, I think I heard Mark scream SLOW DOWN while shooting if my memory serves me. I shot 3 shots in one hole and two shots pulled in my estimation.
All in all it was very impressive. Our Bolt guns didn't love the 4064 in terms of velocity or accuracy. MWS it is!
Sounds like similar velocity I get out of my R700 with 175's. 19" barrel fwiw. These are on my list to try but still have a gang of Sierra's.
Well well well we slung Mark's new fodder with the 178's for the LMT MWS. We were able to get 2525fps with 178 ELD's and they shoot fine. We only tried one group for accuracy and I shot MOA and I shot the group in about 5 seconds, I think I heard Mark scream SLOW DOWN while shooting if my memory serves me. I shot 3 shots in one hole and two shots pulled in my estimation.
All in all it was very impressive. Our Bolt guns didn't love the 4064 in terms of velocity or accuracy. MWS it is!
What powder charge did you guys go with? Loaded to mag length?
I tried them again today in my 700 but with N140. I got a some promising data and I want to try again.
What powder charge did you guys go with? Loaded to mag length?
I'm reluctant to post any powder charge weight due to the massive lot to lot velocity swings we've been seeing.... That said, 43.0 gr of 4064. Historically that would have been a very hot load for a gas gun. But this lot of 4064 is 100 fps slower than our last lot.
Bullets seated to Mag length. (Knights Aluminum Mag)
Sounds like similar velocity I get out of my R700 with 175's. 19" barrel fwiw. These are on my list to try but still have a gang of Sierra's.. Yes, I was impressed with a 16 inch CL barrel in a gas gun. Thats legit velocity.
PB
I'm reluctant to post any powder charge weight due to the massive lot to lot velocity swings we've been seeing.... That said, 43.0 gr of 4064. Historically that would have been a very hot load for a gas gun. But this lot of 4064 is 100 fps slower than our last lot.
Bullets seated to Mag length. (Knights Aluminum Mag)
I have shot some with charge weights around there. I have some loaded for my 700. I might load a few extras for the LMT and work back up.
I shot 3 out of my Rem 700 that grouped well. They were only going as fast as the 16" gas gun though. It was odd.
I'll try to get some velocity data too and compare.
I'm reluctant to post any powder charge weight due to the massive lot to lot velocity swings we've been seeing.... That said, 43.0 gr of 4064. Historically that would have been a very hot load for a gas gun. But this lot of 4064 is 100 fps slower than our last lot.
Bullets seated to Mag length. (Knights Aluminum Mag)
That is not encouraging. 4064 has been magic for me with this class of projectile and I am on the verge of needing another keg, but that does seem slow for the charge weight and seating depth... although still pretty good for a 16" barrel.
It's a great powder. I'm so weird that I think it's a pretty powder too.
With 42.3gr I got an average of 2620 fps from my 20" barreled Remington. 42.8gr started to get a little hot so I stopped the testing there. Accuracy is still disappointing with a 5 shot group at 1.25".
The load data I have has 42.8gr from a 24" barrel clocking in at 2631.
N140 seemed to have slightly better accuracy, but I didn't load enough to get the velocity.
As a side note, I shot some 155 gr TMK from my 16" LMT and it was at 2,730 and the 168s were at 2,605
Accuracy is still disappointing with a 5 shot group at 1.25".
Yeah. I think these bullets are going to be relegated to Pappabear's LMT gas gun. MOAish accuracy isn't too bad for punching steel out of that beast.
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