View Full Version : AR Reliability Packages and Modifications
Hello All,
Long time lurker, first post. What gunsmiths do the more knowledgable members here recommend for reliability work on M4's? I'm aware of Specialized Armament, but don't know about any others out there with solid reputations. I recently acquired a used Colt M4 Commando that I'd like to send out for a thorough reliability package and upgraded parts. Specialized looks like a great option, but I'd like to know about my other options before sending out my SBR and want to avoid "bubba."
Thanks!
Is it not currently reliable?
Do you have an idea on round count?
What upgraded parts do you have in mind?
It's reliable, but I don't know the age of the weapon (will a phone call to Colt be able to get an answer as to age), and I'm not gunsmith so not in a position to judge wear and tear on the various parts. I just want it to be in the best mechanical shape it can be.
Purchase:
1. new carbine action spring
2. New extractor with spring and insert (bcm also sells them, throw the oring away).
3. Detail clean it.
4. Inspect bolt lugs for cracks at the base of them.
5. Shoot at a couple hundred yards and look for keyholes.
It's reliable, but I don't know the age of the weapon (will a phone call to Colt be able to get an answer as to age), and I'm not gunsmith so not in a position to judge wear and tear on the various parts. I just want it to be in the best mechanical shape it can be.
Knowing the age won't tell you how many miles are on it. Even if you have a professional scope the barrel they can only report if it is good or bad not what % of wore out it is. You could always put a new BCG, recoil spring and SSA in it call it a day. The barrel will let you know when it's gone. Keep the old stuff for spares.
New guns with unknown histories:
1) Do nothing, shoot it and fix it as you go.
2) Replace all springs and FCG, then shoot it and fix it as you go.
If I was purchasing a used Colt or any AR for that matter, I would do as a few have mentioned. Year of manufacture will not tell you anything about use. Inspecting it will give you an idea.
1. I would replace the ejector spring, extractor spring, disco spring, hammer and trigger springs and action spring. Inspect the bolt and carrier.
2. I would look for the obvious signs of modifications and shenanigans.
" I would look for the obvious signs of modifications and shenanigans."
Can you be more specific? Bad modifications? Any examples?
Maybe this should be its own thread?
" I would look for the obvious signs of modifications and shenanigans."
Can you be more specific? Bad modifications? Any examples?
Maybe this should be its own thread?
Reduced power FCG springs, anti rotation pins, B.A.D. levers, skelotonized anything, mall minja add ons, etc, while not necesarily immediately harmful, are all bubba red flags, and their existence would warrant further scrutiny of critical components.
Reduced power FCG springs, anti rotation pins, B.A.D. levers, skelotonized anything, mall minja add ons, etc, while not necesarily immediately harmful, are all bubba red flags, and their existence would warrant further scrutiny of critical components.
All this would be over my head. Which is why I originally asked for recommendations for competent gunsmiths (or risk becoming Bubba myself).
Why are anti-rotation pins and B.A.D. levers bad? Besides being a personal preference and a waste of money, how are they detrimental to the rifle?
Why are anti-rotation pins and B.A.D. levers bad? Besides being a personal preference and a waste of money, how are they detrimental to the rifle?
If you need anti rotational pins then you have an out of spec lower, if its in spec whats the point?
BAD levers have been known to cause malfunctions (specifically last round bolt lock back). Other things to look for are breaking loose factory stakings on castle nuts/endplates and replacing them with trash.
Other examples are modifications such as adding rails, replacing triggers, etc.. that have been done incorrectly which happens A LOT.
Why are anti-rotation pins and B.A.D. levers bad? Besides being a personal preference and a waste of money, how are they detrimental to the rifle?
For what it's worth, I've never heard anything bad about the actual workmanship of SAW's reliability package, other than the price and the mysterious nature of it. Whether it's actually necessary is another matter, but if it's anything like the rest of the work I've seen from them, it should be top notch.
All of the above is good advice.
Where are you located? It's possible that a member that builds them is close enough to meet you to check it out. It would only take a few minutes, and you'd likely even learn something in the process.
Knowing the age won't tell you how many miles are on it. Even if you have a professional scope the barrel they can only report if it is good or bad not what % of wore out it is. You could always put a new BCG, recoil spring and SSA in it call it a day. The barrel will let you know when it's gone. Keep the old stuff for spares.
Scoping the barrel and posting a picture of the gas port could actually allow us t o estimate not necessarily round-count, but general wear-level, which would likely extrapolate well to the rest of the system.
"Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
If you can't pick your shit up at 3pm or 0300 and it's configured to get it done 0-400m in seconds, sideways, upside down, or unstable... your a daylight range clown."
Love this!
All of the above is good advice.
Where are you located? It's possible that a member that builds them is close enough to meet you to check it out. It would only take a few minutes, and you'd likely even learn something in the process.
I'm in Reno, NV.
everready73
04-15-18, 09:35
I have used and have been happy with John Thomas at retro arms works http://www.retroarmsworks.com/ . I recently recommended him to another member for some work and he was pleased as well. He is responsive and has great pricing and quick turn around times.
ADCO would be another option. They have a good reputation, but I have heard the occasional issue. They always seem to make it right though
If you need anti rotational pins then you have an out of spec lower, if its in spec whats the point?
I use anti-rotational pins because I've had 2 trigger pins walk out on me. One is an FN lower and the other is a Colt lower and both with factory triggers. Are those lowers or the pins out of spec? Maybe. Or was it poor installation or incorrect spring tension? Who knows? All I know is that once I had the anti-rotational pins installed, I never had another problem with the triggers. And the rifles have been stone-cold reliable after averaging 300 rounds weekly for the past year. So for me, the use of anti-walk pins is not a negative, unless they were installed haphazardly.
I use anti-rotational pins because I've had 2 trigger pins walk out on me. One is an FN lower and the other is a Colt lower and both with factory triggers. Are those lowers or the pins out of spec? Maybe. Or was it poor installation or incorrect spring tension? Who knows? All I know is that once I had the anti-rotational pins installed, I never had another problem with the triggers. And the rifles have been stone-cold reliable after averaging 300 rounds weekly for the past year. So for me, the use of anti-walk pins is not a negative, unless they were installed haphazardly.
If your Colt and FN pins are walking something is wrong or installed wrong. The anti rotate pins didn't fix it. They covered it up.
If your Colt and FN pins are walking something is wrong or installed wrong. The anti rotate pins didn't fix it. They covered it up.
You are absolutely right. The anti-rotational pins only cover up the problem. But I'm too lazy to actually diagnose the problem(s) and they work. I'm just saying that the presence of anti-walk pins doesn't necessarily mean the weapon is bad. Heck, people put them on for "insurance" even though they never had issues with pins walking out.
In which state can you be found? I’m sure there are members here that would be willing to meet you at a range and have a look.
morpheus562
04-19-18, 17:00
I ordered a Colt M4 with the reliability package from SAW and it is sweet, highly recommend their work. The rifle is currently setup exactly how I had my M4 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. If you can drop the coin on the package it is worth the peace of mind knowing that Ken will go through your rifle with OCD attention to detail and make it 100% reliable.
I'm not a gunsmith or AR expert. There are some great products and upgrades out there for popular firearms platforms. I will say carefully consider and research any parts or upgrading other than oem. I have seen cases where upgrading and replacing parts for better reliability and performance, turned a working firearm into a non working or unreliable firearm.
I ordered a Colt M4 with the reliability package from SAW and it is sweet, highly recommend their work. The rifle is currently setup exactly how I had my M4 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. If you can drop the coin on the package it is worth the peace of mind knowing that Ken will go through your rifle with OCD attention to detail and make it 100% reliable.
What was done? Did it actually have reliability issues prior? I am fascinated by what is done with these 'packages' was there any evidence of things done? I know Noveske made claims of doing 'special' things with guns that other seemed to have mil spec parts. What were these little things that added a hundreds in the price premium of the gun. SA if i recall charges a pretty penny for the mods, hundreds of dollars I believe, on a like 900$ carbine.
Always just fascinated by what goes on here. I call BS and say its mostly common knowledge things for many of us. I always feel like when these things are shrouded in secrecy its not because they are so special, but in fact because it is so basic.
morpheus562
04-25-18, 15:29
Per SAW:
"The mods include: Several Barrel Assy Modifications, Multiple Gas system Modifications, Two Bolt group Modifications, Upgraded Buffer Assembly (H2 Buffer), Hammer Assembly and various other parts. Each modification is small on its own, but when grouped together, these upgrades will enhance the reliability and improve the overall function of your world class, combat proven Colt carbine. No further Technical Data will be released."
I do remember him have a separate reliability package specifically for the 6933, but I do not know how they differ from the standard package.
My rifle came directly from SAW and included the KAC rail I used on my issued M4 and had the 14-FIVE-16 barrel (street legal 14.5" barrel that SAW does). It also featured the matech rear buis and included the above mentioned reliability package. It is the closest rifle I've seen to a standard issued Colt M4 and was well worth the money.
morpheus562
04-25-18, 15:40
If memory serves, there was a thread a few years back on Lightfighter regarding the SAW reliability package. Pat Rogers commented to effect that a few Colts with the reliability package have gone through his courses with 100% reliability. Overall positive feedback on it.
If memory serves, there was a thread a few years back on Lightfighter regarding the SAW reliability package. Pat Rogers commented to effect that a few Colts with the reliability package have gone through his courses with 100% reliability. Overall positive feedback on it.
How many without the upgrades made it through with 100% reliability?
If im paying for a service, im going to know whats done. That goes for guns, cars,etc. “special secrets sauce” sounds like “bullshit”.
morpheus562
04-25-18, 19:27
Considering Ken's background with Colt Defense, I think calling BS is going a little far. As far as how many Colts made it through classes without issue you would have to ask the late Pat Rogers or EAG. In regards to the OPs post, $175 to have a master armorer go through your used Colt Commando making sure all parts are within spec and adding improvements where needed is good insurance.
I know nothing about the 'reliability package' but it was easy enough to check this: SA if i recall charges a pretty penny for the mods, hundreds of dollars I believe, on a like 900$ carbine.
SS101 Reliability Package - Colt M4 Carbine $150 All modifications, special parts, gaging and assembly. More Info: M4 Reliability Package. This has been our most popular service for well over 20 years. Exact same price since we developed this package for a Federal Agency in late 1994.
My guesses:
Several Barrel Assy Modifications: 1) ream gas port; 2) blend feed ramps; 3) align FSB
Multiple Gas system Modifications: 1) align gas tube with carrier key; 2) polish 'bulb' end of tube; 3) 1) debur and polish key mouth; 4) ensure torque and staking on carrier key
Two Bolt group Modifications: 1) replace extractor spring and stone extractor; 2) face/polish rear of lugs
Upgraded Buffer Assembly: Convert Carbine buffer to H or H2
Hammer Assembly and various other parts: 1) springs; 2) detents; 3) improve sear engagement
Easily a couple of hours of work for my mods.
Here is what someone said on another forum: Think about it like this. $150 is the equivalent of two hours labor. This is two unhurried hours during which a master armorer for the weapon system goes over it with a fine tooth comb and ensures it is GTG. During this time, he tweaks the gun as needed and also imparts his skills for making it 100% reliable.
The late Pat Rogers: We have seen a number in class, including some from board members. FWIW, i have never seen a SAW modified Colt ever have a problem. In police work, we call this a clue...
IMO if it buys you peace of mind, go forth and be happy.
Considering Ken's background with Colt Defense, I think calling BS is going a little far. As far as how many Colts made it through classes without issue you would have to ask the late Pat Rogers or EAG. In regards to the OPs post, $175 to have a master armorer go through your used Colt Commando making sure all parts are within spec and adding improvements where needed is good insurance.
I didnt call BS, i said “sounds like” specifically.
I wont pay for “secret” treatment. If what 26inf laid out is true, i could see going for it.
Honestly, if i was in the market, id call and ask, but I personally would not pay for an unknown. That rule has never done me wrong, but a lot of people have been screwed buying unknowns.
That is to say nothing of SAW as ive never dealt with them, its a blanket rule of mine. Take it for what its worth.
Can someone post a website link for SAW? Thanks.
http://www.specializedarmament.com/index.php?
Easily a couple of hours of work for my mods.
Here is what someone said on another forum: Think about it like this. $150 is the equivalent of two hours labor. This is two unhurried hours during which a master armorer for the weapon system goes over it with a fine tooth comb and ensures it is GTG. During this time, he tweaks the gun as needed and also imparts his skills for making it 100% reliable.
IMO if it buys you peace of mind, go forth and be happy.
Peace of mind sounds like a bargain to me. Thanks for the post.
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