Bolt vs semi precision rifles

[MegademiC]

Im thinking about getting into long-range shooting (1000yd +) and was pricing out rifles.
I can get a larue 6.5CM for $2k, or a decent bolt gun for $1500.

1. I know the bolt gun is more accurate, but with the accuracy levels semis are at, is the faster followup a better advantage than the accuracy increase?

2. Our Military uses bolt guns so i assume there is a reason.

3. In prs matches, bolt and semis are in separate classes, if they were in the same class, which would dominate?

4. Regarding #3, does that change out at 1300-1400 yds?

[sidewaysil80]

Im thinking about getting into long-range shooting (1000yd +) and was pricing out rifles.
I can get a larue 6.5CM for $2k, or a decent bolt gun for $1500.

1. I know the bolt gun is more accurate, but with the accuracy levels semis are at, is the faster followup a better advantage than the accuracy increase?

2. Our Military uses bolt guns so i assume there is a reason.

3. In prs matches, bolt and semis are in separate classes, if they were in the same class, which would dominate?

4. Regarding #3, does that change out at 1300-1400 yds?

1. 100% depends on the situation (real world) or type of match (competition), to many variables to give a general answer.

2. In my agency OBR 762's are the designated marksman rifle but there have been talks about getting a couple of bolt guns for use in specific situations where accuracy is paramount. I would imagine similar for the military and maybe even perhaps the caliber restrictions (due to lack thereof) in proven semi-auto platforms.

3./4. Bolt gun all the way for PRS. No one makes an AR platform in caliber/barrel length that would be competitive at the distances for a "normal" PRS match (1200ish). You would do fine in the PRS Gas Gun Series because thats out to 800ish. With that being said PRS matches are more held more frequently whereas Gas Gun Series seem to be few and far between. Most local clubs have non sanctioned PRS type matches in which you can shoot both, however some stages will be too far for an off the shelf gas gun.

If you are planning on MAINLY learning long range shooting and getting into long range matches, bolt gun hands down. Semi-autos are a little harder to shoot for precision and I'd think as a beginner you'd be better off learning on a bolt gun.

[Alex V]

The furthest I have shot was 1000yards. I am a novice when it comes to long range shooting but was able to make hits with my OBR 7.62. I was also able to make hits on the same steel with a Tikka TacA1 for half the price...

[jethroUSMC]

Im thinking about getting into long-range shooting (1000yd +) and was pricing out rifles.
I can get a larue 6.5CM for $2k, or a decent bolt gun for $1500.

1. I know the bolt gun is more accurate, but with the accuracy levels semis are at, is the faster followup a better advantage than the accuracy increase?

2. Our Military uses bolt guns so i assume there is a reason.

3. In prs matches, bolt and semis are in separate classes, if they were in the same class, which would dominate?

4. Regarding #3, does that change out at 1300-1400 yds?

Bolt action would dominate, just as it does today. Eventually, the gap may get blurred more, but short-term bolt action is still where the top folks place in PRS.

[Failure2Stop]

1: In a practical setting, especially at distances at which a shooter can self-spot, the immediate follow-up shot of a semi-auto is a distinct advantage. That advantage narrows as the ability to see impact decreases, but the advantage grows when the target is moving or needs more than one hit to achieve the desired end-state.

2: Our military uses a combination of bolt and semi-auto guns in "Sniper" elements, dating back to 2007 for "regular" units, and pre 9/11 for SOF. Recent trends are a heavy, long-range oriented cartridge for the bolt gun (.338, .300 WM, .300 NM, etc), which don't work particularly well in semi-auto guns very easily, and a 5.56 or 7.62 sniper support/DM type semi auto rifle.

3: There are two major categories for PRS matches, Bolt and Gas. Neither is particularly competitive in the other when the stage is set up appropriately. There are absolutely gas guns that can reach out to 1500, but to do so consistently will require a longer barrel than will be preferable for most semi-auto tasks and needs. There are also shooters that can run a bolt gun really fast, but that bolt gun is a wildly inappropriate tool for room entry and close range multiple shot needs. The PRS bolt gun series uses a different scoring system than the Gas gun series; bolt is how many hits can you get in a set time, gas is all about getting all of your hits in the shortest possible time. Bolt targets can be as small as 1 MOA, 2 MOA for Gas (some matches have had smaller than 2 MOA targets, but we just shot it anyway, haha). I know a few dudes that have shot gas guns in the bolt PRS series (before there was a separate Gas Gun Series) and did ok, but those same shooters would have placed higher in the match had they shot a bolt gun.

4: Sort of. You can be competitive with a 2 MOA gun in the Gas gun series, but you really do need a 1 MOA gun to be competitive in the Bolt Gun series.

There are amplifying details on the topic, and it's easy to get long-winded, so I'm gonna stop here until needed.

[RetroRevolver77]

These days, I'd go with a modern 6.5CM semi just for the faster follow up shots along with the range needed.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Bolt action would dominate, just as it does today. Eventually, the gap may get blurred more, but short-term bolt action is still where the top folks place in PRS.

I think that gas guns have come far, but bolt guns have improved too- or at least accuracy that was $5k+ is now at the $2-3K and even $1.1k level. Add in all the options on scopes, and a 0.5moa gun is not that much of a rarity- and really a necessity for top performance. All comes down to hits, which isn't exactly MOA accuracy. And that is where all the whiz bang ballistic calcs, laser rangefinders and wind meters have changed alot of things by taking out unknowns.

Exciting times.

[MegademiC]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback guys.
I think thats enough to set me in the path forward, kind of re-affirmed my initial plan.
Im thinking of using my 556 to start practicing WTF out to 6-700, and picking up a 22-26” 6.5CM bolt gun for past that.

[Averageman]

These days, I'd go with a modern 6.5CM semi just for the faster follow up shots along with the range needed.

I've asked about that in the past and one of our SME's explained to me that 6.5CM isn't friendly to semi auto's.
Has something changed?
After looking in to it and actually pricing the semi-auto 6.5CM, with that advice, I backed out and bought a bolt gun and spent the money I saved on optics for it. I'm pretty happy with that, but I'm curious as to who is rolling out one of these semi's that isn't having issues.
Not trying to be a dick, just really curious.

[RetroRevolver77]

I've asked about that in the past and one of our SME's explained to me that 6.5CM isn't friendly to semi auto's.
Has something changed?
After looking in to it and actually pricing the semi-auto 6.5CM, with that advice, I backed out and bought a bolt gun and spent the money I saved on optics for it. I'm pretty happy with that, but I'm curious as to who is rolling out one of these semi's that isn't having issues.
Not trying to be a dick, just really curious.


I have seven .308 semi's but have been looking into 6.5CM but haven't heard anything in particular about issues.

[Averageman]

I have seven .308 semi's but have been looking into 6.5CM but haven't heard anything in particular about issues.
I believe it had to do with bullet length, being fed from a magazine and failure to chamber consistently, but that's from memory and not 100%.
I would do a search if you want the entire thread and why's and how's.

[Failure2Stop]

I believe it had to do with bullet length, being fed from a magazine and failure to chamber consistently, but that's from memory and not 100%.
I would do a search if you want the entire thread and why's and how's.

Dudes are shooting a whole lot of 6.5 in PRS Gas Gun with very few complaints.
I have shot 1,300 rounds of 6.5mm CM through an SR-25, with SR-25 magazines, 50% suppressed (alternating every 20 rounds), in 100 round increments, with only a wipedown (BCG left assembled) and relube at 500 and 1,000 rounds, with only enough time between 100 round increments to allow the suppressor to cool off enough to keep taking it off and putting it back on without causing me physical injury.
0 stoppages.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

6CM seems to be more of an issue than 6.5CM/260REM? To me, the AR10 platform is still a bit of black-magic act, outside of the companies that are basic in platform and have dialed it in.

I'm running an LMTMWS308 and a R700/308 in an AICS right now, looking to transition to a 6 or 6.5 in a bolt gun. Looking at what the trade-offs are from a RPR, to the new Nucleas Action in my AICS, to an AI AT/AX. Those AI rifles are sweeeeet, but expensive. $10K with scope and doo-dads. yob tvoyu mat.

[C-grunt]

6CM seems to be more of an issue than 6.5CM/260REM? To me, the AR10 platform is still a bit of black-magic act, outside of the companies that are basic in platform and have dialed it in.

I'm running an LMTMWS308 and a R700/308 in an AICS right now, looking to transition to a 6 or 6.5 in a bolt gun. Looking at what the trade-offs are from a RPR, to the new Nucleas Action in my AICS, to an AI AT/AX. Those AI rifles are sweeeeet, but expensive. $10K with scope and doo-dads. yob tvoyu mat.

If you qualify for the Le/Mil discount, Mile High gives 10 percent off ATs and 15 percent off a non folder AT. If you trade in the 308 barrel towards the Bartlein 6.5CM on a non folder, it’s under 4K.

[Hootiewho]

I’ve shot PRS with an AIAX, a state LE sniper match with an AIAX that I won 1st place in, and various other LR matches with both gas guns and the AI. Speaking for me personally, if I am shooting distance I would rather have a bolt gun. The recoil is usually sharper but faster to recover from with a bolt gun. Now I am talking about a 308 w/o a brake. I find it much easier to self spot and quickly correct with a bolt gun. Step over to a 6.5mm or ad a brake or can and it is even easier to keep up with what is going on post shot.

With a gas gun you have a lot more going on. You have less room for shooter error, and I have found depending on the distance I can miss seeing a splash.

No doubt under 600 yards, if you had multiple targets a major caliber gas gun with a good brake or can and a Horus type reticle could be extremely handy. But with a short throw, slick bolt like an AI, and with practice and training you can certainly keep up in that same situation. I got fast with my AI. I would practice using my middle finger at “gimmie” distances and leave my index finger free to quickly get to the bolt and work it. Watch some stangskyting videos of bolt gunners vs gas gunners or guys with G3’s.

If I could only have one, no doubt it would be an AIAX MC in 6.5cm or 260 rem, a 20” barrel and Ti can. With practice it can blow your mind how good you can get.

I am inbetween a short action AI right now as I want to upgrade to MC version. I still have my AIAX 338 and have a Ti SF 338 SOCOM in jail for it. After owning several SR25’s (ECC, ACC, APC X’s 2, EMC), a LMT MWS, HK SR9T, HK MR762, I would much rather keep a 12.5-14.5” AR for defense/GP use and a AIAX for LR/precision work. My experience with the gas guns mentioned above was as follows for MANY, MANY 10 or 20 shot groups and match ammo of various makes:

-The KAC guns were 1.5-2 MOA rifles. The ACC was doing good to be a 2 MOA rifle. The best shooting one was a delta trade in EMC.

-The LMT with CL barrel was inline with the KAC’s listed above. Maybe a touch better. Put a 18” SS 308 barrel in the LMT and things change. Now you are in .7-1 MOA

-The SR9T was a surprise. That thing would shoot like a bolt gun most of the time. I have some pictures of groups I shot with that rifle using Hornady 168gr ELR and 178gr ELR that you would swear it was shot with a bolt gun. It also recoiled more like a bolt gun by feel.

-The HK MR762, in my limited experience, was the best shooting of all those listed above. It would just stack Hornady 178gr ELR-X like a bolt gun most of the time.

I never had the problem of 4 perfect shots stacked and one little guy off over by himself or 2 separate figure 8 shot groups like I did with the KAC’s and sometimes the LMT. At times I regret selling that HK rifle, but I am not rich, so often if I want something else the wife makes me sacrifice something to the alter of upgrading.

For LE use I think a high precision bolt gun is the name of the game. If you want a spotter or secondary with a gas gun, fine; but the one taking the mney shot should be on a half moa or better rifle. I do think we will see a huge shift of LE snipers moving to 6.5mm rounds in the next 5-10 years now commercial match grade ammo is easy to get.

As I mentioned, I do have a 338LM. Even though I have shot it out to 2300 yards (may have been 2400), and it is very good for elr, I got it for the ass busting effect it has on material inside 1000. Inside 1500 yards it is like cheating. Nothing like knocking a full size IDPA AR500 target completely off a stand at 500 yards after other guys spent an hour banging it with 308’s, 6.5’s, and 6mm’s. I love my 338.

Ramble out.