View Full Version : AR9 & AR556 both in Pistol version, pros/cons, why & why not?
Before everyone jumps to it, yes I already made many SBR’s to include Kris’s, PS90 & AR variants....
But having to notify BATFE while traveling isn’t something I want to add to my Travel plan anymore.... with that being said I’m thinking an AR556 & an AR9(for my wife who simply doesn’t have the mass to be comfortable behind a rifle caliber AR pistol)
I also know here’s many other ways to go about it but I just like the idea....
Please share your thoughts & ideas
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HardToHandle
04-29-18, 13:17
In a AR pistol, the 9mm recoil is not less in the traditional blowback uppers. I would argue it may be more felt recoil actually. My absolutely unscientific poll with my wife and my experience is the spring-induced twang is much lower in blowback gun. My wife detests the twang in 5.56.
9mm blast and noise is much better than any rifle caliber in pistol length barrels, obviously.
While you can engineer out weight in a custom build, rifle and pistol builds do have similar base weight.
YMMV.
So not much difference is recoil even with heavy buffers? But less noise/blast would make it more manageable? She shoots an EMP 9mm so I figured a 9mm AR would be better choice for her VS my 7.5” 5.56, although I didn’t think mine was all that bad at all but I’m 5’9” 200lb she is about 4’9” 100lb
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BoltActionAssault
04-30-18, 00:09
5.56 is so low recoil. I don't see how a person's mass would factor into a rifle in this caliber.
Scorpion pistols with braces are nice too.
Be easier for her to manage an AR in 5.56 then a 9mm... the felt recoil due to it being blowback is greater. I would look at a 11.5" barrel in 5.56 (quieter then the 7.5" and with a H2 or maybe a H3 could tune out a lot more of the felt recoil...
Agreed. Anything under 10.3" should be avoided for 5.56. I would also recommend a linear compensator , to direct blast downrange...at least use a flash hider otherwise. If he's using a muzzle brake, then no wonder why she hates the AR.
Be easier for her to manage an AR in 5.56 then a 9mm... the felt recoil due to it being blowback is greater. I would look at a 11.5" barrel in 5.56 (quieter then the 7.5" and with a H2 or maybe a H3 could tune out a lot more of the felt recoil...
I think the problem isn’t so much the caliber but how much of a blast it produces making the overall feel of it, we haven’t tested out a 9mm AR yet but I was hoping it’s going to be much less is that sense, let’s face it unless we are talking 3030 or even a 308 the recoil probably isn’t much difference between the 9 & 5.56.... also was hoping with a heavy buffer the 9 can be smoother?
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Also the 10.5 wasn’t an option for the sake of making a compact weapon for a sling bag
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I wasn't impressed with AR9 recoil. Wasn't as fun to shoot as I thought it would be.
Wife didn't get a chance to shoot it, but I know she'd have said the same thing.
The Beretta Cx4 9mm carbine I had was better. Wife just thought it "Ok" but still had more recoil than it should. We both hated the sights and stock, though. A red dot mounted low with the the sight towers still visible or high (thus too high) didn't work well either.
My wife's favorite 9mm carbine to shoot was a full-size Uzi with a wood stock. But she hated cocking knob (hehe) and it's weight. It wasn't as reliable as it should have been, either. (Vector Arms)
The Keltec Sub2000 is the least comfortable to shoot. But it does fold and use glock mags. (the .40 cal kick is pretty harsh)
The High Point carbine is a bit heavy, but works until something breaks. Not uncomfortable to shoot. (only shot a 9mm version) Mags are low-cap except for the newer, stupidly long single-stack ones.
The Kriss vector is a bit heavy and has odd controls. Reliability is still questionable. But uses glock mags. I've only fired the .45 version. Recoil was not uncomfortable.
Sig MPX: Sorry, never fired one.
If I had to choose a 9mm carbine / braced pistol for my wife today I'd decide between the new Ruger 9mm Takedown Carbine, an Mp-5, and the MPX.
Being the new Ruger 1/4 the price of the others and uses glock mags, I'd get the Ruger!
HardToHandle
04-30-18, 21:38
11B- I would prefer shooting a 9mm any day of the week over a 5.56. The blast is just so much lower that the recoil differences do not matter. My guess is your wife, even petite, would enjoy less blast vs. a bit more recoil. The 9mm recoil impulse is also different, arguably a longer length with more slam on the back end when the bolt closes.
Ron3 - the blowback on a Kel-Tec Sub2000 is always unpleasant and I agree the least comfortable option. Not something I would inflict on a loved one, esp. my wife. I haven’t shot the new Ruger yet.
11B- I would prefer shooting a 9mm any day of the week over a 5.56. The blast is just so much lower that the recoil differences do not matter. My guess is your wife, even petite, would enjoy less blast vs. a bit more recoil. The 9mm recoil impulse is also different, arguably a longer length with more slam on the back end when the bolt closes.
Ron3 - the blowback on a Kel-Tec Sub2000 is always unpleasant and I agree the least comfortable option. Not something I would inflict on a loved one, esp. my wife. I haven’t shot the new Ruger yet.
I haven't fired a new Ruger PCC yet. But I read it's a little barrel-heavy and at least a pound heavier overall than the lighter weight Cx4, sub2000, and AR9. That should help cut recoil.
I expect many aftermarket parts for the Ruger carbine, too. Triggers, safety's, mag releases, Bolt handles, stocks, and more. I don't know about barrels. The more popular thing to do will probably be to cut a few inches off the factory barrel and thread/crown the new muzzle. I do wonder if the fluted barrel will interfere with making such a modification.
BoltActionAssault
05-07-18, 06:32
Also the 10.5 wasn’t an option for the sake of making a compact weapon for a sling bag
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The LAW folding stock adapter might be of interest to you.
https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm
The LAW folding stock adapter might be of interest to you.
https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm
Actually sir it already did, my 5.56 build has it & that’s the first thing I picked up for the next build before figuring out the caliber.
Appreciate that though
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11B- I would prefer shooting a 9mm any day of the week over a 5.56. The blast is just so much lower that the recoil differences do not matter. My guess is your wife, even petite, would enjoy less blast vs. a bit more recoil. The 9mm recoil impulse is also different, arguably a longer length with more slam on the back end when the bolt closes.
Ron3 - the blowback on a Kel-Tec Sub2000 is always unpleasant and I agree the least comfortable option. Not something I would inflict on a loved one, esp. my wife. I haven’t shot the new Ruger yet.
That’s what I was thinking, the 9 in in comparison out of an AR is essentially a really large pistol, making it more manageable
On another note does Kelley make anything that’s comfortable(rhetorical question)?
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I say it depends on your needs. I have an AR pistol in 9mm w/4" barrel (Colt Smg pattern) and and a 5.56 AR pistol with a 10" barrel.
They're both fun, and while the 9mm AR pistol doesn't ballistically do anything any of my other 9mm pistols do, for me it's still quite a bit more accurate at 25 yards & beyond than a handgun, and easy to mount optics. I have other PCCs as well (Storm, Scorpion Evo, TNW ASR, High Point, Sub2k) and while the recoil management in a blowback AR isn't great, a single stage GI trigger is better than any of the other PCC triggers I've listed. With a Shockwave brace the recoil isn't uncomfortable, but mine has a 8.5 oz dedicated buffer and it's harder to do fast follow up shots. If we're talking possible suppression, I'd start with a Scorpion Evo instead.
The 10" 5.56 pistol is more than accurate enough out to 100 yards, and while it's not much shorter or lighter than my 14.5" pinned lightweight middy with the stock collapsed, it's still a pistol. But I wouldn't want to fire it without any ear protection, indoors flash & concussion back to the shooter is much more noticeable than the 14.5" and both have A2 flash hiders.
If you're looking for something to run Glock mags, I'd also recommend looking at a Roni STAB brace if you already have a Glock, I dropped a G32 (.357 sig) in one and was amazed at how much tighter my groups are at 25 yards with the Roni vs 7 yards without. The TNW ASRs also come in a pistol version, and while they're pricey at $700 vs an AR, I can go from 10mm to .357 sig with just a barrel swap by hand.
I say it depends on your needs. I have an AR pistol in 9mm w/4" barrel (Colt Smg pattern) and and a 5.56 AR pistol with a 10" barrel.
They're both fun, and while the 9mm AR pistol doesn't ballistically do anything any of my other 9mm pistols do, for me it's still quite a bit more accurate at 25 yards & beyond than a handgun, and easy to mount optics. I have other PCCs as well (Storm, Scorpion Evo, TNW ASR, High Point, Sub2k) and while the recoil management in a blowback AR isn't great, a single stage GI trigger is better than any of the other PCC triggers I've listed. With a Shockwave brace the recoil isn't uncomfortable, but mine has a 8.5 oz dedicated buffer and it's harder to do fast follow up shots. If we're talking possible suppression, I'd start with a Scorpion Evo instead.
The 10" 5.56 pistol is more than accurate enough out to 100 yards, and while it's not much shorter or lighter than my 14.5" pinned lightweight middy with the stock collapsed, it's still a pistol. But I wouldn't want to fire it without any ear protection, indoors flash & concussion back to the shooter is much more noticeable than the 14.5" and both have A2 flash hiders.
If you're looking for something to run Glock mags, I'd also recommend looking at a Roni STAB brace if you already have a Glock, I dropped a G32 (.357 sig) in one and was amazed at how much tighter my groups are at 25 yards with the Roni vs 7 yards without. The TNW ASRs also come in a pistol version, and while they're pricey at $700 vs an AR, I can go from 10mm to .357 sig with just a barrel swap by hand.
Already have a Micro Roni just wanted a dedicated platform for her
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This^
Have one on my 7.5 and actually got one already for the next build likely the 9mm one we are discussing here
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Diamondback
05-13-18, 15:59
Also, have you considered blast-mitigation systems, things like Ferfrans CQD, Indian Creek BFD or similar? The idea is to channel the blast dead-ahead so it's not as bothersome to those behind or alongside the muzzle.
Home defense gun or a plinker?
Some pretty cool AR9's on the market now. My AR9 is one of my favorite to shoot at the moment. Cheap ammo, small package, lightweight, fun all around, go for it!
Home defense gun or a plinker?
Some pretty cool AR9's on the market now. My AR9 is one of my favorite to shoot at the moment. Cheap ammo, small package, lightweight, fun all around, go for it!
Defense gun, perhaps even a trunk gun
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Defense gun, perhaps even a trunk gun
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My AR9 also pulls double duty for the wife at the house. Small package and pretty easier for her to manipulate and I prefer lower velocity rounds for our home defense weapons.
Klingkong251
05-18-18, 07:44
The pros are that you can travel with the guns loaded and not have to worry about crossing state lines with them. Also makes for a compact weapon that basically functions the same as an SBR without having to pay for the tax stamp. Either caliber will get just about any civilian through 99% of any realistic situations that might arise. Both are easily accurate out to 100 yards and the 556 will be able to reach out a little farther, but any shot you'd have to take at 100 yards probably wouldn't be justifiable in court anyway. 9mm has a bit more recoil due to the direct blow back but the 556 is extremely loud and has a big blast especially in any kind of confined area. I personally like AR's in pistol format over SBR format because for me, you don't really gain much by making it into an SBR. I think you would be well served with either in a pistol format.
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Yeah I have a few SBR’s from before I was Hip to the AR pistol platforms.... I ended up building a AR 5.56 takedown with the LEO set up & Law Folder as well as an AR9.... however I found a Sig Rattler PSB(side Folding) that thing come in at under 18” with an ASR Brake to run my Specwar762. If I take the ASR out it’s under 17” so that’s become my SHTF Pistol & hell I liked it soo much that I ended up with a Sig 226 as my Primary carry.... I guess it’s safe to say I got a Signess [emoji1787]
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halfmoonclip
05-29-19, 20:50
Most of what is felt as recoil in blowback carbines is the cycling of the bolt, not the kick of the shot itself. And a lot of what is felt as recoil depends on the shape of the stock. If it pounds on your cheek, it will bother you. The recoil itself isn't that bad.
I have a Scorpion SBR with the factory stock, which tapers upwards to the receiver. If you climb too far forward on the stock, that upward slope bites you in the cheek. Run the stock out one click, and it solves the problem.
For the op, do consider the Scorpion; it is small, relatively inexpensive, and the recoil modest if the stock (brace) is properly adjusted.
BTW, briefly owned an MPX; didn't see a huge difference in recoil (it is locked breech), but mine wasn't reliable.
Also, be careful of state laws. Carry permits aren't hard in PA, but long guns can't be transported in a loaded condition.
Moon
This post is so informative to me.
uncleducky
06-20-19, 11:52
I’m also considering building either a 556 or 9mm pistol. From what I’ve read in other posts the 556 would be more harsh in terms of muzzle blast vs the 9mm. Also the 9mm ammo is less expensive than 556 which is a plus. In terms of overall length the 9mm barrels can be shorter with less muzzle blast (4”) and most people recommend an 11”+ barrel for 556. Is there a minimum length that a pistol has to be?
I’m leaning more towards 9mm for the following reasons: magazine compatibility with my glock handgun, cheaper to shoot/stock ammo, smaller overall package, less muzzle blast, and if I ever get a suppressor it could be silly quiet, not like that is the end all be all.
With that being said, I’ve recently started looking into 300 blackout, probably not something to discuss in this forum, but it seems to mitigate a lot of the issues when using subsonic ammo over 556, and it hits harder than 9mm. Op, is this something you’ve considered? The drawback is another caliber to buy.
halfmoonclip
06-20-19, 19:11
Ducky, you've hit most of the selling points of a PCC. I don't see a percentage going as short as 4"; a little more barrel and forend gives more to hang on to, and picks up some velocity as well; consider 8-10 ".
PCCs can be fired in ranges where rifle calibers cannot, and the bark of the rifle caliber stuff won't make you a hit on any range.
Even if you don't reload, 9s remain amazing cheap; 50 @ $7.99 for decent stuff isn't unusual.
If shooting the snot out of it is one of your goals, go with the 9.
Moon
How's the reliability of a 9mm AR pistol/SBR, either Glock mag or Colt mag pattern, compare to a conventional gas operated AR type rifle?
I have a 10.3" AR SBR and have become somewhat interested in the notion of having a 9mm one of the same size and more or less same configuration as the 5.56.
halfmoonclip
06-21-19, 10:08
My 9s have been stone reliable over time. The current examples are a Colt SBR and the Scorpion with proprietary mags. Full disclosure; I shoot mostly 115 fmj reloads.
Theoretically, double column/double feed is more reliable.
Moon
A lot of useful info.
Thank you
How's the reliability of a 9mm AR pistol/SBR, either Glock mag or Colt mag pattern, compare to a conventional gas operated AR type rifle?
I have a 10.3" AR SBR and have become somewhat interested in the notion of having a 9mm one of the same size and more or less same configuration as the 5.56.
Are you thinking you will run a conversion block with your lower or build a second, complete gun?
My 5.56 pistol is less than a month old and I enjoy it so much I am putting together parts for a 9mm build.
Andy
Klingkong251
07-06-19, 07:59
How's the reliability of a 9mm AR pistol/SBR, either Glock mag or Colt mag pattern, compare to a conventional gas operated AR type rifle?
I have a 10.3" AR SBR and have become somewhat interested in the notion of having a 9mm one of the same size and more or less same configuration as the 5.56.I built my 9mm AR so take my experience for what it is worth. In the beginning, I had some reliability issues with with the AR9. Mostly failure to ejects with the occasional misfeed. After tinkering with some of the components and switching to a high quality bolt, it now runs flawlessly with any type of ammo I feed it. Great gun and I love to shoot it, but it took some tinkering to get it there. With that being said, I also built my 556 ar pistol and it's never had a malfunction.
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HardToHandle
07-06-19, 09:05
How's the reliability of a 9mm AR pistol/SBR, either Glock mag or Colt mag pattern, compare to a conventional gas operated AR type rifle?
I have a 10.3" AR SBR and have become somewhat interested in the notion of having a 9mm one of the same size and more or less same configuration as the 5.56.
Blowback pistol carbines have been generally as reliable as gas guns in my AR stable, two 9mms Glock pattern vs. four 5.56.
Gas guns seem to be a bit more sensitive to underpowered ammo (looking at you steel case Wolf), even if unusual. I was surprised how little the blowback guns were affected by lighter loads.
However, dirtying up the guns cause more issues with 9mm blowback. I have approximately ten year old LWD lower and JSE upper that starts slowing down around 500 rounds. It has always been a range gun, so not too much concern in rather frequently cleaning.
Of course the recoil impulse is different but sufficiently similar for trainers. I also had the fun S&W 15-22 AR, but there was almost no recoil discernible in .22LR. For a bit more cost per round, I usually chose 9mm.
Well stated. Have an AR9 and now have the itch to build a AR15
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