View Full Version : Credit Card Co's Want to Track and Potentially Restrict Your Gun Purchases
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 09:19
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-30/credit-card-companies-explore-new-ways-monitor-gun-purchases
Following the deadly Valentine's Day shooting in Parkland, Fla., banks and credit card companies considered blocking consumers' gun purchases as corporate America engaged in a marathon virtue-signaling session to prove to their customers that they too care about the lives of students being endangered by gun violence.
Of course, these bans would've likely been temporary. Banks could've quietly withdrawn the restrictions once the public furor quieted down. However, some banks and credit card companies are now considering a more permanent move that would transform them into foot soldiers in the deep state's push to create a register of all gun owners. The Wall Street Journal reported Monday that some lenders are now discussing ways to identify purchases of guns through their payment systems. This would effectively transform them into tools of the intelligence services by monitoring virtually all gun sales at sporting goods stores and other merchants that aren't transacted in cash.
As WSJ explains, card networks like Visa and Mastercard can request approval for what's called a merchant category code - or MCC - a protocol that's governed by a Switzerland-based nonprofit. The code can be applied to gun merchants so that banks can flag new gun purchases using their credit cards.
The lenders are still discussing what types of merchants would receive the new code. Would it be all gun sellers? Or just sporting-goods merchants but not companies like Wal-Mart that primarily sell other products.
One bank has even had conversations with lawmakers about a bill to require merchants to report ALL purchases of certain "gun-related" products.
Currently, card companies, including networks and banks that issue credit cards, have little to no insight into gun purchases. Gun sellers fall into broader categories such as sporting-goods retailers or specialty retail shops. Big-box retailers that also sell guns are often assigned codes that include "variety" or "discount" stores.
An area of discussion, according to the people familiar with the talks: How far reaching a new MCC would be. This code could identify purchases made at gun dealers—but not at merchants that primarily sell other products, such as Walmart Inc.
Some talks have gone further. At least one large U.S. bank has had early conversations with lawmakers about potential legislation to require merchants to share information about specific gun-related products consumers are buying with their cards, according to people familiar with the matter.
As WSJ reminds us, banks have at times blocked purchases of certain items that they believed to be risky, or part of a legal gray area. They also act as the front-line of defense in monitoring payments for suspicious - possibly terrorism-related - activity. And in rare instances, banks have stopped doing business altogether with politically unpalatable groups like the government of South Africa during the apartheid era.
Citigroup has already started restricting purchases of guns using its credit cards to users over the age of 21 (because the last thing these banks want to see is the next mass murderer using a Citigroup-branded credit card to make a fatal purchase).
With nearly half of Americans admitting to owning guns, we imagine most customers wouldn't take too kindly to their shopping habits being recorded and sent to the government.
My take: There's a world o' hurt comin' down and it ain't gonna be pretty.
PLEASE spread the word about this. We want to create such a backlash of people threatening to close their charge accounts that the banks wouldn't dare mess with us.
Just because I am at a gun store doesn't mean I am buying a gun.
So how are they going to know what you are buying, maybe I missed it.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
05-01-18, 09:27
I assume that the way it will actually be done is to not process for the seller, not the buyer.
Just more of the "Red-Neck Cleansing" of the US.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 09:28
Just because I am at a gun store doesn't mean I am buying a gun.
So how are they going to know what you are buying, maybe I missed it.
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The way I read it, they could create a special code that the merchant would have to report as part of the transaction. Potentially, if the code is for a firearm, the cc company could decline the charge. This might take some time, because to code firearms as part of a transaction they would almost certainly have to code EVERY product category. I see it happening.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-01-18, 09:28
Just because I am at a gun store doesn't mean I am buying a gun.
So how are they going to know what you are buying, maybe I missed it.
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Even better. Cut off all money flow if you sell guns, or gun accessories.
What a way to drive gun sales into the fringes of the economy. Great idea.
I dunno.
I am 50/50. We have a debt crisis around the nation. How many people foolishly bought at scares? How much profit are these companies making off of peoples fear buying?
Overall, as someone who had over 20 grand in Medical Debt between my wife and I a few years ago and lived on credit cards to make it by: I am still dealing with a debt management program.
Thankfully, I grew from it and now only do business in cash.
I don't use credit cards, and I am 1000 times better off.
Now, does that mean that no one has the right to do so with their own free will? Of course not. I think these credit card companies are morons for doing so. However, it is their right to do so, and the market will react. If they want to give up an avenue where they can continue to rape the idiotic american consumer, that's on them. What bothers me the most is how this will impact families/companies who use lines of credit as they are meant to be used, and will now feel the recoil from this.
Ultimately though: Maybe if people worried more about what they're supporting by using credit card companies, instead of getting a free 25 dollar gift card for $2500 dollars worth of "reward points" on a balance they're still paying; they'd have a better idea of where their money is going.
Sure, they can stop people from spending CCs, but they can't stop a personal loan. No purchase codes attached to cash. If people wanna find a way to get money to buy something, they will. Credit Card Companies be damned.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 09:47
I dunno.
I am 50/50. We have a debt crisis around the nation. How many people foolishly bought at scares? How much profit are these companies making off of peoples fear buying?
Overall, as someone who had over 20 grand in Medical Debt between my wife and I a few years ago and lived on credit cards to make it by: I am still dealing with a debt management program.
Thankfully, I grew from it and now only do business in cash.
I don't use credit cards, and I am 1000 times better off.
Now, does that mean that no one has the right to do so with their own free will? Of course not. I think these credit card companies are morons for doing so. However, it is their right to do so, and the market will react. If they want to give up an avenue where they can continue to rape the idiotic american consumer, that's on them. What bothers me the most is how this will impact families/companies who use lines of credit as they are meant to be used, and will now feel the impact from this.
Ultimately though: Maybe if people worried more about what they're supporting by using credit card companies, instead of getting a free 25 dollar gift card for $2500 dollars worth of "reward points" on a balance they're still paying; they'd have a better idea of where their money is going.
Although I agree with a lot of your points, the main issue here is that the credit card companies are potentially being turned into yet another tool of the surveillance state. It's another hit to our freedoms and that's why it cannot be tolerated.
Although I agree with a lot of your points, the main issue here is that the credit card companies are potentially being turned into yet another tool of the surveillance state. It's another hit to our freedoms and that's why it cannot be tolerated.
I agree it's a hit to freedoms, but with your added point, I would have to concede that I am now leaning more 25/75 that it certainly is a larger impact to rights than I initially contemplated.
Great conversation point.
do you really think the NSA doesn't have copies of your CC statements already? Even without the code, if they see a $3K charge at larue.com or noveske.com or jprifle.com or bravocompanyusa.com... so on and so forth. See where I am going with this?
skywalkrNCSU
05-01-18, 10:22
Although I agree with a lot of your points, the main issue here is that the credit card companies are potentially being turned into yet another tool of the surveillance state. It's another hit to our freedoms and that's why it cannot be tolerated.
How is it a hit to your freedoms? They can’t restrict you from buying a firearm. I think what Citi is doing is stupid but they are not a government agency and their credit card is not necessary to purchase a firearm. This is the free market, take your business elsewhere or create a competitor to fill the void.
How is it a hit to your freedoms? They can’t restrict you from buying a firearm. I think what Citi is doing is stupid but they are not a government agency and their credit card is not necessary to purchase a firearm. This is the free market, take your business elsewhere or create a competitor to fill the void.
I agree. But it needs to be enforced evenly across the board.
Don't want to sell a cake to a gay couple, fine. Don't want to sell or facilitate a sale of anything to anyone for any reason whatsoever you choose- fine.
The problem is the selective enforcement on these issues.
It's absolutely back door bullshit. But I'd rather people fly their true colors so I know who to do and who not to do business with.
If they are anti gun in even the slightest sense- I'm not going to give them my business in any way shape of form. Period.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 10:51
It's absolutely back door bullshit. But I'd rather people fly their true colors so I know who to do and who not to do business with.
If they are anti gun in even the slightest sense- I'm not going to give them my business in any way shape of form. Period.
I think you nailed it. Yes, the credit card companies do technically own the money they lend you and can therefore dictate what you buy with it, just like a mortgage lender has to approve the property you want to buy.
The fundamental issue, as you've stated, is the backdoor rule changing.
On top of that, what frosts me is the willingness of these big banks to join the surveillance state and just happily pass on your data without your permission, or use that data to control your life or force you into compliance with their political views.
I'm also certain, in a free market economy, that some banks will start issuing credit cards with a Second Amendment friendly ad campaign. That's the nature of competition.
But that doesn't mitigate the abuses of the anti-gun banks and changing the game in mid-stream.
skywalkrNCSU
05-01-18, 11:03
I think you nailed it. Yes, the credit card companies do technically own the money they lend you and can therefore dictate what you buy with it, just like a mortgage lender has to approve the property you want to buy.
The fundamental issue, as you've stated, is the backdoor rule changing.
On top of that, what frosts me is the willingness of these big banks to join the surveillance state and just happily pass on your data without your permission, or use that data to control your life or force you into compliance with their political views.
I'm also certain, in a free market economy, that some banks will start issuing credit cards with a Second Amendment friendly ad campaign. That's the nature of competition.
But that doesn't mitigate the abuses of the anti-gun banks and changing the game in mid-stream.
Oh they certainly have your permission, when you agree to the terms of service you agree to let them do these things with your data. Don’t want there to be a credit card trail? Pay cash.
I used to created models to search out expense fraud when people would submit business expenses and those credit card companies know everything you buy. They have known who is buying guns far before this.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 11:05
I used to created models to search out expense fraud when people would submit business expenses and those credit card companies know everything you buy. They have known who is buying guns far before this.
I'm sure they know when you've purchased from a gun dealer, but do they know you have actually purchased a firearm at this point in time?
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-01-18, 11:05
How is it a hit to your freedoms? They can’t restrict you from buying a firearm. I think what Citi is doing is stupid but they are not a government agency and their credit card is not necessary to purchase a firearm. This is the free market, take your business elsewhere or create a competitor to fill the void.
AS THCDDM4 mentions, your model has been thrown out the window. The left bootstrapped all their stuff in and wrapped them up in legal protections.
You have a business of facilitating business transactions, do that.
I think you nailed it. Yes, the credit card companies do technically own the money they lend you and can therefore dictate what you buy with it, just like a mortgage lender has to approve the property you want to buy.
The fundamental issue, as you've stated, is the backdoor rule changing.
On top of that, what frosts me is the willingness of these big banks to join the surveillance state and just happily pass on your data without your permission, or use that data to control your life or force you into compliance with their political views.
I'm also certain, in a free market economy, that some banks will start issuing credit cards with a Second Amendment friendly ad campaign. That's the nature of competition.
But that doesn't mitigate the abuses of the anti-gun banks and changing the game in mid-stream.
On top of the rule making, if this is used as a surveillance tool does this not violate the Fourth Amendment?
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, PAPERS, and effects, against any unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
If my personal purchase records are being monitored (or "Searched") by a state/government agency without probable cause, I feel that right is being violated. As far as I am concerned, buying any firearm, ammo, accessories, etc without any reason for questions (threats, plans, danger, mental instability) when filling out the 4473, there is no Probable Cause there.
Sadly, people are looking at buying an AR-15 as "probable cause" because of their emotions to previous events.
skywalkrNCSU
05-01-18, 11:10
I'm sure they know when you've purchased from a gun dealer, but do they know you have actually purchased a firearm at this point in time?
We could get line item data showing each individual item purchased if needed. I didn’t do that stuff, I created the algorithms to flag possible exceptions and the T&E team did the investigations.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 11:15
We could get line item data showing each individual item purchased if needed. I didn’t do that stuff, I created the algorithms to flag possible exceptions and the T&E team did the investigations.
Interesting. So the credit card companies could easily have a programmer punch a few buttons and see what you're buying in real time?
skywalkrNCSU
05-01-18, 11:21
Interesting. So the credit card companies could easily have a programmer punch a few buttons and see what you're buying in real time?
From what I saw, pretty much. It’s possible that some merchants act differently in this regard than others but we could get a surprising amount of data if we paid AMEX for it.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 11:25
From what I saw, pretty much. It’s possible that some merchants act differently in this regard than others but we could get a surprising amount of data if we paid AMEX for it.
And there's your back door gun registration if they pass that information on to the government (or even if they just store it for prying eyes later).
do you really think the NSA doesn't have copies of your CC statements already? Even without the code, if they see a $3K charge at larue.com or noveske.com or jprifle.com or bravocompanyusa.com... so on and so forth. See where I am going with this?
I think you're giving the NSA too much credit. They may have your CC statements, but they also have a quadrillion other bytes of data flooding in constantly. The NSA collects everything, but MONITORS just a fraction of that. Your gun purchases are not in that fraction, frankly.
I dunno.
I am 50/50. We have a debt crisis around the nation. How many people foolishly bought at scares? How much profit are these companies making off of peoples fear buying?
Overall, as someone who had over 20 grand in Medical Debt between my wife and I a few years ago and lived on credit cards to make it by: I am still dealing with a debt management program.
Thankfully, I grew from it and now only do business in cash.
I don't use credit cards, and I am 1000 times better off.
Now, does that mean that no one has the right to do so with their own free will? Of course not. I think these credit card companies are morons for doing so. However, it is their right to do so, and the market will react. If they want to give up an avenue where they can continue to rape the idiotic american consumer, that's on them. What bothers me the most is how this will impact families/companies who use lines of credit as they are meant to be used, and will now feel the recoil from this.
Ultimately though: Maybe if people worried more about what they're supporting by using credit card companies, instead of getting a free 25 dollar gift card for $2500 dollars worth of "reward points" on a balance they're still paying; they'd have a better idea of where their money is going.
Sure, they can stop people from spending CCs, but they can't stop a personal loan. No purchase codes attached to cash. If people wanna find a way to get money to buy something, they will. Credit Card Companies be damned.It can be either beneficial or a burden. All up to the card holder.
If the customer sees cards as free money then there will be problems sooner or later. Not counting occasions where there is no choice (medical).
I use nothing but credit cards. Gas, groceries, daily purchases, mortgage. Just about everything goes on credit card. I save a few percent on certain purchases and get money back. Meanwhile when the bill comes I just transfer the money and pay off the card. I never have a remaining balance. The way I see it.... at the end of the month I still have spent the same amount of money regardless of how I brake it up. So why not get something back!
As to the article. I don't need a card to live. If my CC company decided to go this route I'll just cancel
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It can be either beneficial or a burden. All up to the card holder.
If the customer sees cards as free money then there will be problems sooner or later. Not counting occasions where there is no choice (medical).
I use nothing but credit cards. Gas, groceries, daily purchases, mortgage. Just about everything goes on credit card. I save a few percent on certain purchases and get money back. Meanwhile when the bill comes I just transfer the money and pay off the card. I never have a remaining balance. The way I see it.... at the end of the month I still have spent the same amount of money regardless of how I brake it up. So why not get something back!
As to the article. I don't need a card to live. If my CC company decided to go this route I'll just cancel
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This is a model example of using cards correctly.
I agree 100% with your rhetoric.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 13:50
I think you're giving the NSA too much credit. They may have your CC statements, but they also have a quadrillion other bytes of data flooding in constantly. The NSA collects everything, but MONITORS just a fraction of that. Your gun purchases are not in that fraction, frankly.
This is true, but getting back to what might happen in the event of a complete ban, if the government suspects you as a "non-compliant" they can ask that your meta data be pulled and analyzed for content. No matter how disciplined you might be with a credit card in the present day, what about purchases made a few years ago?
I suspect almost all of us are on the hook for at least one or more gun-related purchases.
I tend to purchase with Federal Reserve Notes, aka $$$$
Adrenaline_6
05-01-18, 14:08
Pretty lame excuse from the credit card companies. If you are supporting the anti 2A agenda then just fess up to it. It's not like someone couldn't use their card to get a cash advance and then go purchase a firearm if they really wanted to. If they planned on doing something illegal with it, I doubt the high interest rate gets regarded as a swaying argument.
I think you're giving the NSA too much credit. They may have your CC statements, but they also have a quadrillion other bytes of data flooding in constantly. The NSA collects everything, but MONITORS just a fraction of that. Your gun purchases are not in that fraction, frankly.
I think Doc's post is more of what I was getting at. They are collecting, who knows when they will use it. In the meantime, they have the info already. Just like they are listening in on my iPhone and watching me on the on board camera lol
This is true, but getting back to what might happen in the event of a complete ban, if the government suspects you as a "non-compliant" they can ask that your meta data be pulled and analyzed for content. No matter how disciplined you might be with a credit card in the present day, what about purchases made a few years ago?
I suspect almost all of us are on the hook for at least one or more gun-related purchases.
Doc Safari
05-01-18, 15:08
Another perspective on this:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companies-ban-gun-sales-2018-02-23
Payment companies like Visa and Mastercard set up business relationships with merchants...
They set rules for how their cards can be used, but they don’t approve or reject individual payments for particular items, he said. Instead, they process payments for any purchase from a specific merchant.
So, if someone were to buy a gun from a major retailer, like Walmart, a credit-card company — even banks that issue cards, like Citi, Wells Fargo and Chase — would see that transaction as an entire purchase from Walmart, not necessarily as a gun purchase.
In order to stop firearms sales from stores that sell other items, credit-card issuers would have to decide they will not do business with a merchant at all if they sell guns.
Credit-card companies could force retailers to set up a separate checkout and payment system for guns and associated products, but that would be difficult and require a lot of compliance rules for which products can and cannot be purchased with a credit card, said Brendan Miller, a principal analyst at the research firm Forrester.
Online pornography is another similar example. Payment companies, including American Express, refuse to process payments for those businesses. That is mostly because those transactions have a high risk of fraud, he said. But pornography purchases don’t typically come from large merchants who sell multiple types of products, so credit-card companies can block them without eliminating a relationship with a major retailer.
Other credit-card companies still permit pornography purchases, and there are even payment processing companies that specialize in high-risk transactions that porn merchants can use as their processor, so AmEx’s refusal to process the payments hasn’t exactly harmed the industry.
The payment industry is competitive, and payment facilitators are always looking for niches they can fill, he said. If guns became one of those niches, some company would step in to fill it.
“If the past shines any light on the present, nothing will be done at the commercial level to shut down sales of weapons of the kind used at the Florida high school,” said David Robertson, an analyst and the publisher of The Nilson Report, a well-known payments report. “As long as they are legal, some company will handle the business.”
Even if payment companies banded together to refuse to process gun payments, people could still pay for guns in cash, Wester said. Some gun enthusiasts have even suggested cryptocurrency could become an option for paying for firearms. But it probably won’t need to happen, Wester said.
My take: I think the industry will find a way to track gun purchases. With all the lefty loon politically correct "metoo" horseshit floating around, it's too tempting a target not to aim at. But I don't think people will stop being able to purchase gun-related items with a credit card. It will simply be a niche filled by certain companies if the lefty loon banks won't go along, or the lefty loon banks will find a way to add a surcharge. (You can believe I'm betting on the latter--greedy bastards). Bottom line: it's another way for the banks to bend you over without even a kiss. Meanwhile, the government has this huge database they can mine every time they need to.
Smart money says start paying cash for all your gun-related purchases. Let your past transactions fade into credit card history as your "immature youth." That way if the balloon goes up in your lifetime you can say, "Oh, yeah, I was into guns years ago, til I found God, or cannabis, or Maharishi Mahesh Mikkimous, or whatever."
Use your footprint to your advantage by "reforming". LOL.
Citi tried this years ago and it was an epic fail. This is just them trying to stay relevant........
All this will do is have people just change LLC names for financial purposes...... Bob's Guns will change to Bob's Sporting Goods.
Items don't show up on CC receipts anyway......... they swipe and put in the total.
Use crypto.
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The_War_Wagon
05-01-18, 17:10
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-30/credit-card-companies-explore-new-ways-monitor-gun-purchases
My take: There's a world o' hurt comin' down and it ain't gonna be pretty.
PLEASE spread the word about this. We want to create such a backlash of people threatening to close their charge accounts that the banks wouldn't dare mess with us.
MY take is - there'll be a LOTTA people switching CC companies. Anyone know some gun-friendly cards we can all switch to, and tell the commie banks to go pound sand? :mad:
MountainRaven
05-01-18, 17:46
Use crypto.
That opens a whole new can of worms.
Really more like Pandora's Box.
Citi tried this years ago and it was an epic fail. This is just them trying to stay relevant........
All this will do is have people just change LLC names for financial purposes...... Bob's Guns will change to Bob's Sporting Goods.
Items don't show up on CC receipts anyway......... they swipe and put in the total.
Precisely. I sell guns, my company name is nothing gun related. The only data transferred to my c.c. processing company is the card info and the total value of the transaction.
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There are quite a few dispensaries in CO that get around these types of shenanigans by running the CC transactions through a separate shell corp. Yeah, sure...That's probably technically money laundering, but **** it...Freedom!
Averageman
05-01-18, 19:26
Could you imagine the outrage if CC companies did the same thing with sex toys?
Just out the names, purchases, times and dates of all prominent people purchasing such items?
Didoes, dimebags (where legal) or Guns, what you do with your money cash or credit should remain your business.
skywalkrNCSU
05-01-18, 20:03
Could you imagine the outrage if CC companies did the same thing with sex toys?
Just out the names, purchases, times and dates of all prominent people purchasing such items?
Didoes, dimebags (where legal) or Guns, what you do with your money cash or credit should remain your business.
Legal pot is pretty much a cash only business, it was a real security concern and companies were hiring ex special forces guys for security since they just had wads of cash on site. I was doing some reading on credit card companies restricting purchases and apparently a number of them do not allow online porn purchases so there’s that too. They claim that it’s a common fraud charge but they don’t really have to justify it if they don’t want to.
Adrenaline_6
05-01-18, 20:54
Legal pot is pretty much a cash only business, it was a real security concern and companies were hiring ex special forces guys for security since they just had wads of cash on site. I was doing some reading on credit card companies restricting purchases and apparently a number of them do not allow online porn purchases so there’s that too. They claim that it’s a common fraud charge but they don’t really have to justify it if they don’t want to.
From what I understand pot is a cash only business due to it still being illegal by federal law and the whole credit card out of state commerce thing.
Averageman
05-01-18, 23:12
The point I was attempting to make was, They are in the credit/debit card business, not the morality card business.
Do they need s mass exodus of customers in order to learn this lesson?
That they don't like your purchases should be irrelevant to the business they are in.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-02-18, 02:21
Try shutting off the credit card machines at Planned Parenthood.... or at gay bars.
I think this is all virtue signaling and as soon as they figure out the cost of doing it in IT and resources and back off.
I tend to purchase with Federal Reserve Notes, aka $$$$
+1 Like a man.
MY take is - there'll be a LOTTA people switching CC companies. Anyone know some gun-friendly cards we can all switch to, and tell the commie banks to go pound sand? :mad:
I meant to answer this earlier.
I really like Cabella's - their fraud department is top of the line - I mean as in, 'are you, or an authorized card holder currently in Dallas?' when someone was trying to buy airline tickets.
The problem is the waiting until you get new cards, but dang, they catch them before you do.
We pretty much made all of our big payments through them when we had them, getting 1% in Cabella's bucks on those payments and using their money for a month. Plus we were getting 5% in Cabella's buck on purchases from Cabella's. Over the years those points have completely purchased a gun or two and paid for a lot of clothing.
I really haven't seen a change in the CC operation since they were purchased by Bass Pro.
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