View Full Version : PSA Lowers for $39.99
Lowest price I have ever seen on a stripped lower. Anyone know anything about these? Quality?
I've built three of their blem lowers. These are the same minus the large logo roll mark (which I kind of like). I don't see why you'd have any trouble. I think I paid $49 ea for my blems.
Lowest price I have ever seen on a stripped lower. Anyone know anything about these? Quality?
PSA isn't known for high quality, and the lowers have the same reputation. If you are looking for the cheapest item possible, and price is your major factor, you should go for it.
Lowest price I have ever seen on a stripped lower. Anyone know anything about these? Quality?
They're fine. A lower is a lower. I have built a number on PSA blems. Have two SBR'd. I'm going to order a couple more since I've pledged to stock up while the prices are low. I've probably bought over 10 PSA lowers over the years. I like my Noveske lower more, but they're functionality the same and I can literally buy 3-4 PSA lowers for the price of one Noveske.
I suppose you may have a better chance of getting one out of spec from PSA vs a more expensive brand, but I haven't known of one personally. Non-issue for me. I'd just send it back for replacement. I would be absolutely shocked if you had a failure after it was assembled and functioning.
They're fine. A lower is a lower. I have built a number on PSA blems. Have two SBR'd. I'm going to order a couple more since I've pledged to stock up while the prices are low. I've probably bought over 10 PSA lowers over the years. I like my Noveske lower more, but they're functionality the same and I can literally buy 3-4 PSA lowers for the price of one Noveske.
And, PSA recently has started supporting the site with advertising.
Diamondback
05-09-18, 18:34
PSA isn't known for high quality, and the lowers have the same reputation. If you are looking for the cheapest item possible, and price is your major factor, you should go for it.
If pure price is all that matters, just buy EP Armory plasticrap blanks for $20-25 a pop, a jig and a cordless drill.
I recall reading at one point in the past that PSA lowers were manufactured by Aero, which I think of as a solid lower. Don't know whether they still are or not.
A lower is a lower just like a fat chick is a New York model. If a fat chick with greasy hair turns you on a cheap lower will probably turn your crank.
titsonritz
05-09-18, 20:08
A lower is a lower just like a fat chick is a New York model. If a fat chick with greasy hair turns you on a cheap lower will probably turn your crank.
Pretty much
yeah - some lowers are better than others...
Parts is parts...
Until things dont line up.
Low price in general means higher risk. Honestly.might be worth it at that price.
PSA isnt junk, but its not kac either (hence the price).
A lower is a lower just like a fat chick is a New York model. If a fat chick with greasy hair turns you on a cheap lower will probably turn your crank.
You know what they say about Fat Girls:
Freddie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3PtncYeS0Q
Non-Freddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ8ilCUz7Tc
I won’t buy PSA or Aero.
As long as Aero is making lowers, there is no need to buy a PSA.
kwg
yeah - some lowers are better than others...
Assuming the lowers are both in spec, what possible difference could you discern between a KAC, PSA, Colt, Noveske, Stag, Spikes, etc standard lower beyond the aesthetic differences between logos and types of finishes? Or are you just concurring that PSA might have a higher chance of being out of spec? I personally call BS on there being any functional difference between standard forged lowers. I'm also well aware that the high dollar name brands don't guarantee to be perfect spec. The Noveske lower I used on my 300BLK is almost certainly out of spec. It's so tight that I have to use a tool to remove the takedown pins. The same upper fits fine on all of my other lowers.
I won't argue that there are finish differences. My PSA lowers seem to be more of a flat finish than my Noveske Gen1 lower and other lowers I have.
Noveske (slick shiny finish):
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/noveske2/noveske-lower-3.jpg
Noveske (more of a matte finish; note tool marks from removing rear takedown pin):
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/sbr/noveske_left.JPG
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/sbr/noveske_left_close.JPG
PSA (more of a matte finish):
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/sbr/psa/psa_left_close.JPG
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/sbr/psa/psa_right.JPG
Bunches of lowers, variety of finishes....
https://wct097.com/wt/guns/lowers.jpg
I personally don't mind spending the coin on an expensive lower. I have several Noveskes, but I don't pretend that they're functionally any different from cheaper ones. I'd rather skimp on the rollmark on the lower and buy a nice trigger and nice upper. I am, however, by no means advocating for polymer lowers.
As long as Aero is making lowers, there is no need to buy a PSA.
kwg
I've had a couple Aero lowers. Not sure why you'd pick them over PSA for twice the price. They're the same thing with different logos.
titsonritz
05-09-18, 22:11
Here we go again. :dirol:
Here we go again. :dirol:
My exact thoughts.
A lower is a lower.
You might get away with posting that sort of garbage on other websites, but expect to get called out on it here. You are absolutely wrong.
Quality control is alive and well with some manufacturers, and with others, it doesn't exist at all.
Under no stretch would I say that every lower or product PSA makes is a disaster, but their level of QC, and what they consider acceptable is below minimum standards when compared to the rest of the market. They exist for those persons looking for the cheapest price possible, and they serve that niche fairly well evidently.
You might get away with posting that sort of garbage on other websites, but expect to get called out on it here. You are absolutely wrong.
Quality control is alive and well with some manufacturers, and with others, it doesn't exist at all.
Under no stretch would I say that every lower or product PSA makes is a disaster, but their level of QC, and what they consider acceptable is below minimum standards when compared to the rest of the market. They exist for those persons looking for the cheapest price possible, and they serve that niche fairly well evidently.
Just like "Anderson is as good as ANY lower."
The 1/3rds of the ones I have encountered with something out of spec says otherwise
In spec? Sure... That's dandy, they work.
Will I ever turn a 30-40 dollar lower into a 230-240 dollar SBR? Hell no. Asking for troubles.
I will stick to a well known, reputable company, and vet as a pistol before adding that much value and time.
A lower is not just a lower. My buddies and I learned the hard way.
I got 4 from the EE here at one point as a batch buy. 1 had to go back (not sellers fault in anyway ). Friends who bought during the panic had a big failure rate.
Just not liking those odds that I have experienced. Just like TN Arms. Returned 2 of their lowers and got a final with 2 of the same issues I returned the first one far.
Say it with me now: A lower is not "just a lower".
vicious_cb
05-10-18, 01:20
Spending the extra $40-60 to make sure everything is correct on a serialized part that literally will never wear out sounds like a good a deal to me. Its like those people who refuse to buy the $12 insurance that covers you for $250k in damages on a rental car.
Has anybody changed anybody's mind this go round?
The only out of spec lower I have run across on an AR build was from Spikes and that was pre Newtown. Have built a few Anderson’s and Spikes since and they have been fine. Have a few PSAs bare so I don’t know.
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HelloLarry
05-10-18, 08:54
The 2 PSA lowers I've had were very good and the finish matched my Colt upper. They were cut low shelf too in case you want to do a registered auto sear or whatever.
Everything else I've had from PSA, blems included, was GTG too. They even spent the extra nickel's worth of labor to stake a castle nut on a stock.
I'd jump on that deal if I needed another lower.
Assuming the lowers are both in spec, what possible difference could you discern between a KAC, PSA, Colt, Noveske, Stag, Spikes, etc standard lower beyond the aesthetic differences between logos and types of finishes? Or are you just concurring that PSA might have a higher chance of being out of spec? I personally call BS on there being any functional difference between standard forged lowers. I'm also well aware that the high dollar name brands don't guarantee to be perfect spec. The Noveske lower I used on my 300BLK is almost certainly out of spec. It's so tight that I have to use a tool to remove the takedown pins. The same upper fits fine on all of my other lowers.
I won't argue that there are finish differences. My PSA lowers seem to be more of a flat finish than my Noveske Gen1 lower and other lowers I have.
Noveske (slick shiny finish):
Noveske (more of a matte finish; note tool marks from removing rear takedown pin):
PSA (more of a matte finish):
Bunches of lowers, variety of finishes....
I personally don't mind spending the coin on an expensive lower. I have several Noveskes, but I don't pretend that they're functionally any different from cheaper ones. I'd rather skimp on the rollmark on the lower and buy a nice trigger and nice upper. I am, however, by no means advocating for polymer lowers.
I've had a couple Aero lowers. Not sure why you'd pick them over PSA for twice the price. They're the same thing with different logos.
What process do you go through to ensure your lowers are in spec? What measurement are you taking?
EDITED to cut the pics out
Spending the extra $40-60 to make sure everything is correct on a serialized part that literally will never wear out sounds like a good a deal to me. Its like those people who refuse to buy the $12 insurance that covers you for $250k in damages on a rental car.Except when you are already covered by your personal or company auto insurance policy.
Rental car insurance is where they RAKE in the $$$. It's almost pure profit.
What process do you go through to ensure your lowers are in spec? What measurement are you taking?
I don't know about wct097, but I just assemble, function check, and use. If the lower gives me trouble I would either go through the return process, or scrap it if I couldn't fix it. Not going to cry over an inexpensive lower.
I don't care how much the lower cost, or who made it, if you are going to SBR it, you need to assemble it and use the lower before sending in a Form 1.
This is what slays me about these discussions - everyone repeats the dogma they have adopted.
Sure, ANY manufacturer can have some QC issues get by - and yes, some manufacturers/assemblers actually have better QC controls in place than others - I suspect that some manufacturers who are reputed to have above and beyond QC actually have normal/average for the industry QC protocols.
But, given modern manufacturing technology, as long as the base material is proper, it ain't rocket science to put the holes in the right place. If the holes are in the right place and the dimensions are correct, then the lower will function regardless of whose roll mark is on it.
Are some going to look better? Sure. That was noted in a post above.
Outlander Systems
05-10-18, 12:35
This is funny.
It’s almost like you have a pecuniary interest.
wct097 = Correct
You might get away with posting that sort of garbage on other websites, but expect to get called out on it here. You are absolutely wrong.
Quality control is alive and well with some manufacturers, and with others, it doesn't exist at all.
Under no stretch would I say that every lower or product PSA makes is a disaster, but their level of QC, and what they consider acceptable is below minimum standards when compared to the rest of the market. They exist for those persons looking for the cheapest price possible, and they serve that niche fairly well evidently.
I am calling BULL SH!@ on this.
A working lower is a working lower. They either work or do not. I have about 8 different brands and they all work the same. As long as everything lines up they are good. I will tell you that I have 4 PSA lowers and they work just as good as my Noveske Lower. I have seen BCM Uppers and Lowers that were so far out of SPEC that they would not work at all. How about all of the retarded expensive Knights stripped lowers that were WAY out of SPEC? Hell, I have 5 Anderson Arms lowers that are SBRs...... Guess what? They too work just fine.
Are some parts different when It comes to quality, most definitely yes. Barrels are one of the most important parts and should be the best quality you can afford. But a lower........ NOPE. It is not like these companies are having people make the lowers by hand...... most of the companies have a completely automated process. Is the QA/QC process important? Yes it is. But sometimes there is a diminishing point of return. Here is a deal for you..... go buy a complete BCM lower or you can buy 4 PSA lowers, a quality LPK, a super cool trigger, and buffer system....... odds are that one of the lowers will work just as good as the BCM and you can take that extra $100 you saved and buy some ammo and train........ The Most Likely scenario is that you will have a good complete lower and also have three more stripped lowers that work just fine.
If all you want is a pretty roll mark or are running around saying I have a Colt or BCM, or what ever is the "Cool" LARP brand of the day then you are missing a great deal. If brand name dropping is what you want, then make 100% sure you know why Mr. Cool Guy likes it.
Remember that everyone has ulterior motives........ I even have them for this post...... Mine is to stop seeing people fight about stuff that does not matter at all.
So QC issues that get reported on low end brands are just made up? I don't think anyone is saying that if you get a lower end brand lower that is in spec, it's garbage. The issue is, a higher % of gear is out of spec at the bottom of the barrel. Do you want to take that chance for saving an extra $60 - 100 or so? Only the individual can answer that. It's easy really.
On this site, just expect to be called out. Unless you are new here, that really shouldn't come as a surprise.
As long as Aero is making lowers, there is no need to buy a PSA.
kwg
Aero makes some of the PSA lowers...
They(PSA) source from a few different places. Aero Precision, FN, LW Schneider, and maybe 1 other.
Outlander Systems
05-10-18, 13:28
Amen.
I am calling BULL SH!@ on this.
A working lower is a working lower. They either work or do not. I have about 8 different brands and they all work the same. As long as everything lines up they are good. I will tell you that I have 4 PSA lowers and they work just as good as my Noveske Lower. I have seen BCM Uppers and Lowers that were so far out of SPEC that they would not work at all. How about all of the retarded expensive Knights stripped lowers that were WAY out of SPEC? Hell, I have 5 Anderson Arms lowers that are SBRs...... Guess what? They too work just fine.
Are some parts different when It comes to quality, most definitely yes. Barrels are one of the most important parts and should be the best quality you can afford. But a lower........ NOPE. It is not like these companies are having people make the lowers by hand...... most of the companies have a completely automated process. Is the QA/QC process important? Yes it is. But sometimes there is a diminishing point of return. Here is a deal for you..... go buy a complete BCM lower or you can buy 4 PSA lowers, a quality LPK, a super cool trigger, and buffer system....... odds are that one of the lowers will work just as good as the BCM and you can take that extra $100 you saved and buy some ammo and train........ The Most Likely scenario is that you will have a good complete lower and also have three more stripped lowers that work just fine.
If all you want is a pretty roll mark or are running around saying I have a Colt or BCM, or what ever is the "Cool" LARP brand of the day then you are missing a great deal. If brand name dropping is what you want, then make 100% sure you know why Mr. Cool Guy likes it.
Remember that everyone has ulterior motives........ I even have them for this post...... Mine is to stop seeing people fight about stuff that does not matter at all.
So QC issues that get reported on low end brands are just made up? I don't think anyone is saying that if you get a lower end brand lower that is in spec, it's garbage. The issue is, a higher % of gear is out of spec at the bottom of the barrel. Do you want to take that chance for saving an extra $60 - 100 or so? Only the individual can answer that. It's easy really.
On this site, just expect to be called out. Unless you are new here, that really shouldn't come as a surprise.
Your premises is totally off. The "HIGH" end items are under reported. Look what happens if someone says that got a bad item from "cool guy endorsed" vendor. They are told to stop bitching on the internet and to contact the vendor. So YES, there is a great deal of under-reported items on here.
But you are correct, only the individual can answer what they are going to do and why. Good luck and Caveat Emptor.
Your premises is totally off. The "HIGH" end items are under reported. Look what happens if someone says that got a bad item from "cool guy endorsed" vendor. They are told to stop bitching on the internet and to contact the vendor. So YES, there is a great deal of under-reported items on here.
But you are correct, only the individual can answer what they are going to do and why. Good luck and Caveat Emptor.
This premise has me taking a second thought on my stance. As much as I am inclined to apply my anecdotal preferences and mentality, mine echos Vegas, you do make a great point.
noonesshowmonkey
05-10-18, 13:45
I am throwing in on the side of the parts is parts category. There are places where your return-on-investment really makes things worth the money. Lowers, unless something is totally borked, is not really that place. Are the pin holes in alignment? Does the trigger and safety actuate properly? Does the magazine drop free? Yes to all three = done.
Paying a $100+ premium for QA/QC (which is just voodoo, by and large, and a way to justify over spending for trendy shit) would allow you to buy two if not three (or more!) of these lowers. Aero Precision makes/made aerospace parts, which I am fairly certain have tighter tolerances than a 1950s era design predating 5-axis CNC machining...
Folks over think this shit constantly, and buy into the idea that XXX brand costing 4x other lowers brings them something that they need. As with anything martial, stick to your METLs; and if what you gain is not on that list, you should consider carefully why you are spending the time / money / weight / volume on that thing.
Also, Doc's point regarding the over-reporting of QA/QC failures vs. the non-reporting of success makes a great point. At $40 each, there are tens of thousands of these (Anderson, PSA, Aero) lowers running around out there. Complaining that the highest volume product has the highest volume of failures is the same line of thinking that has non-Glock shooters calling the Glock unreliable because there are so many problems related to the most-sold pistol in the world... Meanwhile, those in the know just STFU and shoot.
Outlander Systems
05-10-18, 13:50
100% fact.
I've had *SERIOUS* problems with "high end" carbines that, if I were to report about in certain places, would get banned, a warning, or told to STFU and "contact the manufacturer."
It is, what it is...
Your premises is totally off. The "HIGH" end items are under reported. Look what happens if someone says that got a bad item from "cool guy endorsed" vendor. They are told to stop bitching on the internet and to contact the vendor. So YES, there is a great deal of under-reported items on here.
But you are correct, only the individual can answer what they are going to do and why. Good luck and Caveat Emptor.
A couple of points:
People should contact the manufacturer first instead of bleating on a forum. Save that for after it is resolved, or not in some cases.
High end parts can go wrong for sure. I believe, overwhelmingly, the companies I choose to give my money to have a higher % of good parts and that if something does go wrong, they will handle it quicker and with much less fuss.
You have to pick what works for you. Don't be influenced by the internet. Use your intelligence and pick your poison. Just don't come whining when it all goes wrong and people say I told you so. It's the internet after all, that's what people do.
This is funny.
It’s almost like you have a pecuniary interest.
I think a lot of folks on this site have those interests. Many of them go by the adage, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything,
I think a lot of folks on this site have those interests. Many of them go by the adage, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything,
Perhaps. But nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade when appropriate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Will I ever turn a 30-40 dollar lower into a 230-240 dollar SBR? Hell no. Asking for troubles.
I can make the argument for only SBRing cheap lowers. I feel that when you pay that $200 you basically devalue the lower to the point that you're better off selling off your parts and trashing the lower should you ever find yourself desiring to get rid of the gun. I've SBR'd a $275 Noveske and a pair $50 PSA blems. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to buy a lower with my name engraved on the side. If I ever sell off my guns, I'll part them out and keep or trash the lowers.
What process do you go through to ensure your lowers are in spec? What measurement are you taking?
EDITED to cut the pics out
I don't know about wct097, but I just assemble, function check, and use. If the lower gives me trouble I would either go through the return process, or scrap it if I couldn't fix it. Not going to cry over an inexpensive lower.
I don't care how much the lower cost, or who made it, if you are going to SBR it, you need to assemble it and use the lower before sending in a Form 1.
This is what slays me about these discussions - everyone repeats the dogma they have adopted.
Sure, ANY manufacturer can have some QC issues get by - and yes, some manufacturers/assemblers actually have better QC controls in place than others - I suspect that some manufacturers who are reputed to have above and beyond QC actually have normal/average for the industry QC protocols.
But, given modern manufacturing technology, as long as the base material is proper, it ain't rocket science to put the holes in the right place. If the holes are in the right place and the dimensions are correct, then the lower will function regardless of whose roll mark is on it.
Are some going to look better? Sure. That was noted in a post above.
Pretty much this. My theory is that any spec issues that I could run into would be pretty obvious early in assembly, function check, or the first few magazines. I cannot fathom a spec issue for a lower that wouldn't show up for years and thousands of rounds of use. I'm sure someone can come up with one, but it's not like you're hearing horror stories about people who had a "low end" lower fail after a year or so of use. The QC issues I hear reported are either nitpicky finish complaints or spec issues that result in immediate problems. I personally don't buy the justification that you need to spend 3x as much to make sure that I don't have a X% chance of having to send it back right after I assemble it. I could be compelled to change my opinion if someone could articulate a quantifiable example of lower priced lowers failing down the road where it could leave you in a pinch in the middle of a competition, fire fight, or hunting excursion. I haven't seen that. Most of the arguments I hear are "trust me, I know... they're 'better'" without anything to define "better" or "quality".
There are much more important parts to the gun in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.
I will allow that (1) I'm not an expert, (2) Stickman has (and others have) far more experience than I do, (3) I don't subscribe to groupthink on either side of the issue, (4) I'm open to having my mind changed, and (5) I think people have some legitimate concerns about PSA in terms of customer service, shipping, and QC for assembled uppers and guns. I haven't experienced any such issues, but I think they do exist. QC issues for a lower are less of a concern for a builder since you're going to be doing the assembly and function testing yourself.
I've only experienced two spec issues. One was on a VLTOR MUR which the manufacturer replaced as being out of spec, and the other was on my Noveske SBR lower. I've managed to deal with the spec issue on the Noveske and can't really send it back since I had already submitted the Form 1 and had it engraved when I was working on the assumption that "it's high end, thus I won't have any spec issues". I've learned my lesson; anyone can have spec issues and you should check it before you are stuck with it.
edit: I also ordered three of the $40 PSAs. Stocking up while the stocking up is good....
I think a lot of folks on this site have those interests. Many of them go by the adage, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything, about the companies that pay me.
Fixed it for you........ :sarcastic:
Also.... why did you change your post? :dirol:
Aero makes some of the PSA lowers...
They(PSA) source from a few different places. Aero Precision, FN, LW Schneider, and maybe 1 other.
It's been discussed that pretty much all lowers are the same. I have 4 Aero lowers and all have been for my purposes, perfect. I get them locally and do not pay a separate fee for shipping and a transfer as it's built into the price. With this in mind, why would I order one from an internet company?? Although I understand that some folks don't have the option I have.
It's my understanding that Aero makes lowers for several companies and simply puts the different companies logo on it. I own 4 different brands of lowers and if I didn't know any better I would say at least 3 came from the same CNC milling machine and somewhere after they came out of the mill got a brand stamped on them. This is where the person running the mill should be closely watching tolerances and making sure all the inputs are updated as tools wear or are replaced.
Aero is what I have easiest access to and I have not been disappointed. I might save a few bucks by switching to someone else's product but it just doesn't seem worth the risk. Aero seems to be consistently turning out a good product that allows me to swap parts and uppers with lowers and I don't have to worry about them fitting. They just do. Peace of mind is worth staying loyal to the brand.
kwg
Fixed it for you........ :sarcastic:
Also.... why did you change your post? :dirol:
The current one is the third version. I don't remember if actually posted the first version. I thought version two was too flippant and wanted to add more substance.
ETA: In terms of the 'don't say anything' the first person that comes to mind is Jack Leuba. If he posted the sky was red, I wouldn't bother to look, it's red. Why? Because he doesn't slam the competition, or belittle. There are others, just one example.
I have one PSA lower. Its in spec and finished nicely.
However it was meant to come as a kit with and EPT coated trigger. It did not, I contacted them, they said the right trigger was on the way. Never got it.
Buy a lower its probably fine. Don't buy parts kist from them though.
I buy ammo, mags complete name brand guns (colt/glock) and lowers from PSA. They have screwed up and ammo order or two on me before.
Why is that? I've had nothing but great luck with AP.
I’ve read several reviews of figment issues.
I’ve read several reviews of figment issues.
Soooo, you have read about non-existent issues and that made up your mind?
Soooo, you have read about non-existent issues and that made up your mind?
Whether they exist or not I can’t say, I have no first-hand experience. I read what respected-by-me members from another forum (I don’t remember which one, but not ARF) said about them and made up my mind. Besides, with all the other manufactures out there that don’t have issues, what does it matter if I’ve made up my mind not to buy Aero?
Whether they exist or not I can’t say, I have no first-hand experience. I read what respected-by-me members from another forum (I don’t remember which one, but not ARF) said about them and made up my mind. Besides, with all the other manufactures out there that don’t have issues, what does it matter if I’ve made up my mind not to buy Aero?
And what manufacturers have had no issues? That I would really love to hear........
contax_shooter
05-10-18, 19:46
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/823/42028111041_a36e910179_b.jpg
IME most people who buy 4 PSA lowers play barbie AR-dress up more than they ever shoot.
Because shooting can be expensive and you can't post photos of it (usually).
And what manufacturers have had no issues? That I would really love to hear........
I guess I could have said that differently. It’s likely all manufactures have had/will have an issue at some point but my experiences and those of others that I respect lead me to those with less/minimal issues, and I stick with those.
IME most people who buy 4 PSA lowers play barbie AR-dress up more than they ever shoot.
Because shooting can be expensive and you can't post photos of it (usually).
Really? I can guarantee that I have shot the shit out of mine...... I have a DPMS lower that is from 2000 that has over 45k through it. Oh by the way.... I just got 4 PSA lowers and still have 3 Areos that I haven't done anything with....... So what are basing this pearl of internet wisdom on?
Docsherm, perhaps you aren't most people.
And what manufacturers have had no issues? That I would really love to hear........
On this note, I don't recall ever seeing anyone report issues with Mega lowers. Although I am sure they have probably had something go wrong based on the law of averages.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/823/42028111041_a36e910179_b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/240f60a38097a239c7ba35fe9256a0b7.jpg
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Really? I can guarantee that I have shot the shit out of mine...... I have a DPMS lower that is from 2000 that has over 45k through it. Oh by the way.... I just got 4 PSA lowers and still have 3 Areos that I haven't done anything with....... So what are basing this pearl of internet wisdom on?
You act like you know something about gun fighting or something. Pffttttt
10/10 LARP
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IME most people who buy 4 PSA lowers play barbie AR-dress up more than they ever shoot.
Because shooting can be expensive and you can't post photos of it (usually).
I buy 3 lowers inexpensive lowers at a time, primarily because the FFL that I go through lets me transfer 3 for the same price.
I don't take pictures/selfies of myself in action poses a la LARP.
ETA: docsherm - deleted photos of sorted brass and reloader.
Outlander Systems
05-10-18, 21:11
I love when members shit on SMEs :rolleyes:
There was a particularly embarrassing moment the last time this happened, and this time is equally as bad.
You act like you know something about gun fighting or something. Pffttttt
10/10 LARP
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really? I can guarantee that I have shot the shit out of mine..
You aren't most people and the comment wasn't directed at you.
vicious_cb
05-10-18, 22:25
The fact of the matter is, you go cheap, you are rolling the dice. I learned my lesson. I bought 4 spikes lowers when they were on sale a several years back. 2 of them work fine, 2 of them dont drop pmags free and spikes is not exactly considered bottom of the heap...
You aren't most people and the comment wasn't directed at you.
Oh, ok. No problem
Hammer_Man
05-11-18, 00:06
I've had fitment issues with Anderson lowers before, so I tend to stay away from the bargain brands, but at 40 bucks a piece it's REALLY tempting to buy a few...
Spending the extra $40-60 to make sure everything is correct on a serialized part that literally will never wear out sounds like a good a deal to me. Its like those people who refuse to buy the $12 insurance that covers you for $250k in damages on a rental car.
I'm in this boat. I've seen way too many issues with low end gear and I value my time more. A good example that just happened not that long ago was a friend who had two cheap lowers that were branded by a semi local sot. Went to build an AR pistol off one of them with a short 22 upper while he waited for the form 1 to come back to sbr it. The good news is that he got with me to assemble it first. The bolt catch machining is off and it jams with the 22 upper. Seems to work ok with a normal 5.56 upper though. Checked the upper, bolt etc on other sbr's of mine and a colt m16a2 and they worked right on them. Ended up selling him a spare smith and wesson lower receiver I got cheap when a gun store closed down and everything worked fine. He form 1'd it. I've also had to fix a few friends anderson lowers where those idiots couldn't be bothered to thread the screw hole for the pistol grip all of the way. It takes no time to fix other than one of them trying to put it together, realizing it will not work right, and then having to drive to me to borrow a tap.
That being said even with standard forged lowers a lower is not a lower. You have things like the angle of the magwell flaring cuts that can make mag changes easier. Now I do agree that if the lower is in spec it really doesn't matter who made it from a function standpoint. I'd rather start with someone who seems to care more about the QC. You can find plenty for around 100 bucks that seem to have less issues around them if you want.
In PSA's case I've had too many issues with crappy lower parts kits that friends have used from them where I end up swapping something like a take down spring or detent to make taking apart the gun easier because the PSA part was crap. Something you honestly wouldn't think would be a problem. I've watched friends fight to get barrel nuts off that were torqued way over spec and had no grease used. I've also seen a few of their uppers with fsb's really canted from people with them. I haven't seen their ak's but have read about the issues with them. I personally wouldn't buy one of their lowers. Not saying they can't make a quality product, just saying the chances of having problems are higher.
I love when members shit on SMEs :rolleyes:
There was a particularly embarrassing moment the last time this happened, and this time is equally as bad.
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COME AT ME BRO
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IME most people who buy 4 PSA lowers play barbie AR-dress up more than they ever shoot.
Because shooting can be expensive and you can't post photos of it (usually).
I guess that's directed at me? How much do I have to shoot to be able to post my opinion on m4c? I'm guessing much more than is needed to post on arf, gt, or others? I'd like to be able to gauge so I can self evaluate for future posts.
Seriously though, I am very interested in hearing from people that don't share my opinion that a "lower is a lower" as to why they so vehemently disagree. I'm not sure I care about the fact someone had an issue with a given brand, I think it's statistically meaningless to quantify the number of issues posted about on a forum without much more data. I am honestly interested in hearing about the actual issues people have had.
For example, someone posted that they bought 4 Spikes lowers and had two with tight mag wells. That's an example of an actual issue. I can't extrapolate from that, a statistic that 50% of Spikes lowers are out of spec. I don't know what the number is, but I would suspect it's in the single digit range. Maybe 4-5%. Pure speculation though. Maybe KAC is 1-2% because of better QC, BCM is 3-4%, and PSA is 6-8%. I don't think you can accurately gauge that as a 3rd party or as the individual with the problem because you can't get a real view of the actual data. What you can do, however, is gauge the impact that the problems cause you. For me, that particular issue is a minor one. I'd expect to find that problem early on and send the two back for repair or replacement. It's an annoyance, but it's not going to be a dire problem for me. Lets say those Spikes lowers cost $100 each. I don't see the value for me in spending 75-125% more to reduce the probability of me having a spec issue by 1-2%. Granted, I'm making up numbers here, but my goal is to illustrate my reasoning, not to argue the numbers.
The specter of spec issues like the above example (with a stripped lower) doesn't bother me, especially when considered in the context of occasional QC issues and nebulous statistics. What would concern me is if people were making the argument that PSA lowers, due to QC/spec issues, were sometimes cracking, failing, or somehow breaking under use randomly after having been previously working flawlessly, that would get my attention. The point being that the whole min/max concept doesn't float for my purposes. Shaving off a couple percent chance that I have to send a part back doesn't equate in value to twice the purchase price or more. I'm a hobby & competition shooter. If an armorer was building a large number of guns for people going into harms way, that extra 1%,2%,5%, or 10% minimization in spec issues could be worth the cost to ensure they get done and out the door without me having to wait for replacements or deal with the vendor. To that armorer, a "lower is not a lower". To me, a "lower is a lower". Neither of us is wrong, nor is it worth throwing around insults to prove the point.
I'm paraphrasing a member of another forum who recently spent four days at PSA: since 2008, the company went from selling PMAGS and PMC Bronze .223 out of a garage to becoming the largest AR manufacturer in the US (50+% market share), all while using all American made parts.
If that is true, it sure puts a lot of things into perspective.
Grendelsnap
05-11-18, 14:03
Only shooters and AR dorks care who makes their lowers, or their rifles for that matter. 3/4 of the guys at work who own ARs have bottom dollar shit and wouldn't care to know there is a difference between what my BCM is made out of and what what their $399 Phil's Gun Shack parts gun is made out of.
I'm paraphrasing a member of another forum who recently spent four days at PSA: since 2008, the company went from selling PMAGS and PMC Bronze .223 out of a garage to becoming the largest AR manufacturer in the US (50+% market share), all while using all American made parts.
If that is true, it sure puts a lot of things into perspective.
I'm not bashing PSA - 50% market share can mean a lot of different things - I believe we are primarily talking about complete AR's and lower receivers, not miscellaneous parts.
The 2016 ATF manufacturers report doesn't paint that picture -
PSA manufactured more complete rifles, (10,707) than some of the boutique brands, but less than Colt, Daniel Defense, Del-Ton, Rock River, to name a few.
In terms of lowers, if I'm interpreting correctly, PSA apparently made/had made 111,543; Aero came in at 81,516; Anderson Arms at 453,763.
https://www.atf.gov/about/docs/undefined/afmer2016webreport508pdf/download
No doubt though, PSA is a major player.
ETA: Final thought, I didn't mistype WC Anderson (dba Anderson Arms) that is 453,763 items that they put serial numbers on. Apparently the poverty pony folks make lowers for a lot of other folks.
I personally have had an issue with a PSA lower takedown pin hole being out of spec. It was too low and would not go together properly with any upper I had.
I guess that's directed at me?
Actually, to clear up my comment, it wasn't directed at anyone in this thread - but if it rings true to someone, that isn't something I can help you with.
It's just what I see locally (and to some degree online) - guys who have 5 to 50 ARs built and lowers stacked in the safe - and when there is a sale, they gotta have another 1 or 10 from wherever the latest deal is.
They are builders / collectors and occasional shooters - they plink 30 rounds through a new gun from the bench or from some position with really zero thought to anything other than pulling the trigger, then hemm and hawww over what works or doesn't, then you are lucky to see them shoot it again, ever.
And for the record, that is OK. Not everyone is or tries to be a shooter - it's easier for lots of people to justify buying things, but a lot harder to buy something that you are going to expend (ie, ammo). And considering the company on M4C, I'm likely an average (at best) shooter, simply due to time and financial constraints - I'm not in the industry. But I have taken some training classes and stick to a basic training regimen of drills which I shoot 1-3 times a month (pistol and rifle). So when I see $39.99 lowers, which will cost me about $65-75 after shipping and transfer, I prefer to just go shoot a set of my drills (100rds pistol, 160rds rifle) with the stuff I already have or maybe save up for something I really want (like a NF NX-8 in my case).
YMMV - I didn't mean to get everyone's hackles up.
$40 stripped lowers are a steal no matter how you put it.
PSA lowers are about the same quality as Aero, Anderson, Spikes, and a few others. I've built dozen's of them (just as many of us have here) with zero issues. Its not the quality of a Mega or Noveske (nor are they meant to be), but for that cheap price who's complaining?
Hearsay is one thing, first hand experience is another. In my experience most of these lower-end receivers work just fine. I've built over 20 lowers and complete rifles (using PSA, Aero, Spikes, Anderson receivers) with 100% function rate. Maybe I'm just lucky?
xjustintimex
05-11-18, 18:01
A lower either works or it doesn't. I can tell you from experience you will be a lot less disappointed sending back a lower priced lower than a name brand reputable one the internets promised would be a golden nugget of awesomeness.
A lower either works or it doesn't. I can tell you from experience you will be a lot less disappointed sending back a lower priced lower than a name brand reputable one the internets promised would be a golden nugget of awesomeness.
That's BS. You can have various levels of problems. I listed earlier where a friend had a gunstore special(as in it was branded with their info, no clue who actually made it) that seems to work fine with 5.56 uppers but wouldn't work with a 22 upper due to the bolt catch machining being a little off. You can also have things with tight magwells that work with mil spec mags but maybe not so well with polymer ones(or maybe they just don't drop free). You end up with stuff that mostly works but isn't completely right. What about those KAC lowers that work fine with stock trigger guards but wouldn't fit their own extended ones? I have two of those btw, just used a normal trigger guard on one I put together.
I remember people posting issues with someones lowers online where they bought some and the channel for the selector spring and detent was drilled off. The lower worked but the selector rested at an angle or something. To be fair a lot of people wouldn't have cared but it was wrong, even though it did still work.
Now anyone can have QC issues and put out a bad lower. If the PSA is in spec(and most should be) then it isn't a problem.
I have a few PSA lowers that have been GTG, I’ll buy more. I’ve had 8 complete KAC ambis that were GTG but shit does happen and KAC have had a good share of problems with their stripped lowers. Guy on TOS has an out of spec magwell on an ambi KAC lower right now actually. My point is that all these manufacturers will suffer from tolerance stacking and shitty products from time to time. At this point for me I like cheap lowers cause it works the same basically.
Actually, to clear up my comment, it wasn't directed at anyone in this thread - but if it rings true to someone, that isn't something I can help you with.
It's just what I see locally (and to some degree online) - guys who have 5 to 50 ARs built and lowers stacked in the safe - and when there is a sale, they gotta have another 1 or 10 from wherever the latest deal is.
This describes my predicament in a way. Right now the gun safe is full of AR's and I have 5 partially built uppers and lowers laying in a locked job box. The problem is that the $120-130 you have tied up in the upper and lower requires all those other parts - LPK, FC, BCG, Charging Handle....you know. When you get finished you have at least grand into it, and currently the market for one built by a guy in his shop doesn't really bear that price. Plus, there is the legality of building them to sell w/o an FFL. I've pretty much ran out of relatives and friends that are interested. But dang, I really enjoy putting them together, much more than I should for such a simple task.
Another problem is that if you have numerous personal AR's, it is hard to put any kind of round count on any of them, especially if your primary emphasis is pistol.
Actually, to clear up my comment, it wasn't directed at anyone in this thread - but if it rings true to someone, that isn't something I can help you with.
It's just what I see locally (and to some degree online) - guys who have 5 to 50 ARs built and lowers stacked in the safe - and when there is a sale, they gotta have another 1 or 10 from wherever the latest deal is.
They are builders / collectors and occasional shooters - they plink 30 rounds through a new gun from the bench or from some position with really zero thought to anything other than pulling the trigger, then hemm and hawww over what works or doesn't, then you are lucky to see them shoot it again, ever.
And for the record, that is OK. Not everyone is or tries to be a shooter - it's easier for lots of people to justify buying things, but a lot harder to buy something that you are going to expend (ie, ammo). And considering the company on M4C, I'm likely an average (at best) shooter, simply due to time and financial constraints - I'm not in the industry. But I have taken some training classes and stick to a basic training regimen of drills which I shoot 1-3 times a month (pistol and rifle). So when I see $39.99 lowers, which will cost me about $65-75 after shipping and transfer, I prefer to just go shoot a set of my drills (100rds pistol, 160rds rifle) with the stuff I already have or maybe save up for something I really want (like a NF NX-8 in my case).
YMMV - I didn't mean to get everyone's hackles up.
Seems accurate in my area as well...this stuff brings me down, as well as this site.
People ruin everything.
Diamondback
05-11-18, 21:44
This might seem a little odd, but there might be a functional place for cheapos like PSA and Anderson, as dedicated training rigs where malfunctions are expected--though I'd want some kind of distinctive "Exercise/Training" marking like a blue band. Put enough rounds into a new top-tier to validate it and then periodically "recertify," then put it in the Ready Rack and wear out the expendable "near twin" in regular training use.
Just spitballing an idea... take it with a grain of salt, my last rifle session of ANY kind was fifteen years ago in college and I'm long overdue.
hotrodder636
05-12-18, 06:51
I read his post as sarcasm...
I love when members shit on SMEs :rolleyes:
There was a particularly embarrassing moment the last time this happened, and this time is equally as bad.
As for the point of the discussion...no surprise, but I think docsherm is right on. If the lower works, it works. Doesn’t matter who made it. I have some Aero lowers that work just fine and in fact their fit and finish is on par with my LMT and KAC (not stripped lower but SR15). I too have a DPMS lower (and upper)that came from a full gun that is now my highest volume receiver set, somewhere around 10k and it works great and is buttery smooth.
As said somewhere else in this thread, when you put out the highest volume, you will have a higher number (not percentage based) of reported tolerance issues. Statistics.
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