18" AR15 with Hornady 60VMax

[TomPenguin5145]

Nothing Earth Shattering In Here.

Rifle Description:
This rifle started out as a stock Ruger AR556 from Fred Meyer. :-)
It used to have quad rail, streamlight and AimPoint Pro on it. It was a home defense gun. Those items got moved over to another rifle. This rifle sorta got turned into a "budget" range toy. I put an 18" KAK ValueLine barrel on it. It is a medium contour 5.56 1/7 Nitride. A free-float handguard and 1-6 ACSS scope I got on sale. It has the Ruger Elite 4.5lb 2 stage trigger in it. My wife got me that as a gift last Christmas. It's nothing great but nothing bad. I got bored one early morning in the winter and spray painted it with some paint I had on hand. :p This is not some super serious high end ultra precision rifle. I am also still working on my personal skills at being able to shoot tight groups....

Anyway, I decided to work up some handloads with 60VMax bullets to see what happened. I started out with CFE223 and Varget. I used the Hornady load data. I found it WAY too conservative. Velocities were too low and I didn't get great groups. In fact I gave up on CFE223 all together. It was 2-4 MOA groups all day from that at all charges.

I went to Hodgdon's website and found they listed a max charge of Varget/60 VMax at 27.0. I snooped through a Lyman manual at Cabelas and found they listed a max charge of 27.4. I worked up from just above Hornady max to .5 grains under Hodgdons max. This left me with 25.3 to 26.5 in .2 grain increments. I loaded 10 of each. Shot two 5 shot groups of each. MagnetoSpeed Sporter was the chrono.

All casings are PMC once fired. Full length resized to the point in which they JUST stick a JUST a little when you eject them manually. Trimmed to 1.747. CCI 450 primers. Bullets seated to 2.25 and checked for consistency with the Hornady measure from the ogee tool thing. The seating/crimp die is set to just kiss the case mouth with the crimp.

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I did some shooting and came up with the following data. Groups rounded to the nearest 1/4". Measured for extreme spread, not mean distance.
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The 25.3 to 26.1 casings. The charge starts at 25.3 in the back and moves up by .2 at you go each row to the front.
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The 26.3-26.5 casings.
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So far I think 26.3 is a good load. It puts it up near the smaller sized groups and the velocity seems to level out a bit between loads.

I just thought I would share. I might add on to this as I go and test different bullets and loads. What suggestions do you guys have for another bullet to try?
I see there is a sticky thread on loading for precision. I think I will go spend some time reading that. :)

[markm]

60 grain bullets have always killed me. Pappabear will buy them from time to time, and they're nice.... but they always seem to POI high compared to everything else we shoot. They don't seem to jive with our zeros for 62s and 77s.

You almost have to commit a gun to the bullets... which isn't a bad thing... just is what it is.

Also... I've gone to trimming to 1.755". Our rifle smith talked me into trimming a little long, and I'm happy with it. The theory is you have more neck/bullet contact which would increase tension consistency. But the real upside is when you're trimming really long (xm193, etc) brass. It cuts a lot of time and effort off the trim job when you're not going really short.

[308sako]

60 grain bullets have always killed me. Pappabear will buy them from time to time, and they're nice.... but they always seem to POI high compared to everything else we shoot. They don't seem to jive with our zeros for 62s and 77s.

You almost have to commit a gun to the bullets... which isn't a bad thing... just is what it is. I have found both the 60 V-Maxes and the 60 Sierra HP to be very accurate bullets, but I differ in powder choices as I have found IMR 8208 XBR or Benchmark to be far superior as to accuracy and velocity. Of course YMMV

Also... I've gone to trimming to 1.755". This is what and why I do the same

Our rifle smith talked me into trimming a little long, and I'm happy with it. The theory is you have more neck/bullet contact which would increase tension consistency. But the real upside is when you're trimming really long (xm193, etc) brass. It cuts a lot of time and effort off the trim job when you're not going really short.

Unless you are shooting a custom barrel I have yet to find an AR barrel that pinches the mouth of the neck at a case length of 1.765"...

[markm]

Unless you are shooting a custom barrel I have yet to find an AR barrel that pinches the mouth of the neck at a case length of 1.765"...

And I remember BH reman ammo in 55 gr.... years back when I gauged it, it was crazy long. But at that time people were shooting tons of the stuff with no issue.

[TomPenguin5145]

I was just reading through the manual for my P.A. 1-6 ACSS and I noted that it gives you ammunition choices to help set zero. To align with the subtension (I think that is what they are called), a 60Vmax needs to be moving at 3050-3150fps. So I am about 150-200fps shy of that right now. I don't really want to keep pushing velocity, in fact I am not sure I can get there in my rifle. I only have about a .5 grain until I hit the Hodgdon max of 27 grains. CFE223 gives me the velocity, but my groupings were really bad. 28.0 of CFE223 gave me 3132 fps.

They also list 69 SMK moving at 2900 fps, 75 Hornady at 2700, and 77 SMK at 2700. So I guess those are the ones I am gonna try to load up next....

[ozarkpugs]

Was the accuracy test done with mag chro on the barrel ? If so maybe that widened groups . What size group does this barrel do with other loads ?

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[TomPenguin5145]

I picked up some 69 SMKs and a Lee Die Set. I loaded the 69 SMK up with the powders I had on hand (H335 and Varget). I found the Lee seater die WAY better then my Hornady American I have had for 2 years. It was easier to adjust and didn't mark up the bullets as much on the compressed loads. While I had the H335 out I loaded up some 60 VMax with it as I had not tried it. I ensured all rounds were within .002" overall length using a comparator. The 10 rounds of 60 VMax @ 26.3 Varget are sort of the control load to see if the group sizes remain the same as they did on 5-10-18. Today is "Monday" for me (5-13-18), so I will try and get to the range on Thursday (5-17-18) and report back what I found.

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I guess my end game is to develop a good load (~1MOA) that matches the sub-tensions on my scope. I can then use them when I sign up for this course in a year or so.
http://www.alaskatactical.com/urbanprecisioncarbine.html

[TomPenguin5145]

Things got a little crazy and I have been unable to get back to the range. I will update as soon as I can.

[308sako]

If you want the 60 V-Maxes to rock, try IMR 8208 XBR, the CFE and Varget are a bit slow for that bullet.

My load with either the 60 Sierra HP or the V-Max has been worked up to, suffice it to say I recommend the same to determine what your barrel likes.

Velocities; 11.5" 2750, 14.5" 2950, 18" 3100 ft/secs...

[TomPenguin5145]

So I **Finally** got back to a range. The new range I am at allowed members to shoot 7 days a week, 364 days a year from 7 AM to 10 PM. I was able to jump out there for about a 40 min session around 9 PM. The light was okay for the first target, not so much for the second. It was 55 degrees out and VERY humid as it just stopped raining.

I shot 4 "fouler" founds. 2 were Everglades 55gn FMJ Version 2 pushed by 23.5 gn of H335 and a SB SMR primer (Hornady Case). The other two were 60gn Hornday SP pushed by 26.5 gn of CFE223 and a CCI 450 primer (RP Case). The 55 got 2960 fps and the 60 got 2850 fps.

I just picked up a box of SB SR primers so I decided to also test them.

I then shot two 5 round groupings of the SB primed 60 Vmaxs with 26.3 gn of Varget (In PPU cases, not PMC). I got two groups. Both were right about 1 1/4". AVG fps of 2953 and a SD of 12.


The light had faded to the point I could no longer make out the hits on the paper and holding on the center of the target was not easy. I probably should have walked away and gone home....

I ended with two 5 round groupings of the CCI 450 primed 60 Vmaxs with 26.3 gn of Varget. I got two groups and both groups were 1 3/4" vertical and 1 1/4" horizontal. AVG fps of 2946 and a SD of 20.
I think the 26.3 load of Varget seems to work for the rifle. Now its probably more about me and my skills. I still have the shoot the 60 Vmax pushed by H335 as well as the 69 SMKs loaded with H335 and Varget. I might get to that in a week or so.

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[TomPenguin5145]

Photo of the SB SRP Target. I am going to repeat this on the brighter day. My point of aim, attempted point of aim, is the bottom of the red circle. I have a hard time resolving it with my 6x Primary Arms Optic. I don't claim to be the best/most consistent shooter. Sometimes I want to blame the optic, but if people can shoot MOA with irons I should be able to do it with this. Its the Indian not the arrow right?

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[markm]

I rarely shoot good groups with SPR type guns. I don't know what it is.

How are you metering the Varget?

[ALCOAR]

Photo of the SB SRP Target. I am going to repeat this on the brighter day. My point of aim, attempted point of aim, is the bottle of the red circle. I have a hard time resolving it with my 6x Primary Arms Optic. I don't claim to be the best/most consistent shooter. Sometimes I want to blame the optic, but if people can shoot MOA with irons I should be able to do it with this. Its the Indian not the arrow right?

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It's been my experience that 60gr. vmax properly loaded is an incredibly accurate pill @ 100yds. Bughole type stuff for sure. Your first group is approaching what I'd expect to see with a good 60gr. vmax load....minus what looks like a flyer.


Your second group with significant vertical stringing is rather perplexing though based on the first group. Perhaps you shot both groups back to back with very little cool down time between shots? I've starting ammo testing again recently, and forgot just how enormous of an effect barrel heat plays when shooting groups. When I shoot a 10rd group, it takes 10min then to let the barrel fully cool down. Vertical stringing culprits often are shooter related, and outside of breathing control, you listed another common reason for vertical stringing, which is inconsistent POA hold.


If I were you, I'd buy a red box of BH's 60gr. vmax loading and use it as a control. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339131231/black-hills-ammunition-223-remington-60-grain-hornady-v-max-box-of-50


I no longer use a bench to perform accuracy testing, as I found it way harder to keep technique solid when doing so. I shoot prone with a bipod up front, and a bag in the rear. I find it very advantageous when I put my full weighted body behind a rifle, and drive it from that position. When sitting up right on a bench, I just get to much unexpected movement. Shooting groups without a mechanical rest is truly an acquired skill, that requires constant practice to maintain.

It seems you have the right mindset, and approach to become a jedi master in short order:)

[TomPenguin5145]

I rarely shoot good groups with SPR type guns. I don't know what it is.

How are you metering the Varget?

In this case, I have been using a scoop to get in the ball park and a trickler to get to 26.3.

[TomPenguin5145]

I did not give it that much time between 5 shot groups. I will extend that time to 10 min next time and see if it helps.

I would love to try some BH, but it costs about a billion dollars to ship it up here.

Its funny you mention shooting from a bench vs prone. I shot these groups prone, but I have a shitty bag and have a hard time getting it to work with the stock.

[markm]

I would really consider ditching Varget unless your volume is low. I can run XBR, H322 etc on my Dillon without giving up any accuracy. And Varget sucks for case capacity in .223.

You mentioned the shitty bag... Get a good heavy bag. It REALLY makes a big difference when trying to asses ammo. Pappabear has two that we use. A super heavy stiff mofo that we shoot groups with, and a heavy softer suede bag that we run out to long ranges.

[TomPenguin5145]

I have 1 pound of Varget. I will likely try some H332 as I also heard its good for making reduced muzzle flash loads. First I want to try and confirm this 26.3 loading is good so I can keep "on record". Where did you get the bags? Are they just homemade type bags (socks with sand?)

And before I run out to work for the day, I resized one of the fired PMC casings. I am getting about .0050 inch of case length growth after a resize. Again, at this resize, it just barely grabs when I manually un-chamber the non-fired resized case with a seated bullet.

[TomPenguin5145]

I shot 3 more groups of 60VMax pushed by 26.3gn of Varget and got the same results. 1"-1.5" groups (extreme spread). The velocity is consistant and I got no change in group size by shooting with or without the chrono attached. I also loaded up 3 rounds each of 26.7,26.9 and 27.1. There is next to no velocity change with those loads from 26.3. I also noted no concerning pressure signs at 27.1.

I then shot some 69 SMK loads. I had them loaded with H335 and Varget. CCI 450 primers, 2.26 OAL. See the below targets. My best target so far was the 69SMK with 25.3 of Varget, that is a 5 shot group. I had the check the backer to confirm the 5th shot.

I still don't have a good bag yet.

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[AndyLate]

Shooting some groups at 50 yards/meters should show you if you have enough magnification. 6x would be fine for me at 100, but not everyone's eyes are the same. If your groups at 50 are a quarter (or less) the size they are at 100, then I would suspect sighting error could be an issue.

I know for a fact that I can shoot much smaller groups at 100 meters with a Leupold 4-12 vx-2 scope than a Trijicon 1-4 accupower.

Different targets may help too, you don't have to use a round bullseye.

Good luck.

Andy

[TomPenguin5145]

I went out a shot some more. My Varget Load of 26.3 still is shooting the same. I also tried two loads of H322. 23.2 gn gave me 2800 fps and the start of a decent group until I threw one. 23.5 gn also started a good group but at 2850 fps until I threw one. These were also shot with a 3x9 scope i picked up. At this point I think its more about me then the system. :-)

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