Build Planning a His/Hers Set, M4 & C8 (Any Canadian C7/C8 SME's around?)

[Diamondback]

Since the girlfriend's expressed an interest in shooting with me when visiting, I thought it might be a nice touch, instead of building up a set of perfectly matched M4's, to build hers as a Canadian C8 as a nod to her heritage. Do we have any C7/C8 experts around who can give me advice on this project? Right now, I'm thinking to go for "widest issued versions"--which as an aside means as much as I love that SOPMOD FSP URG's layout, the M4 is probably gonna be just a basic RAS. Are there any significant cosmetic differences between the C8SFW and C8A3 I need to be aware of?

Current known/suspected component list for C8A3 clone project:

URG: Complete BCM C8SFW, with basic six-hole CAR handguards
Tri-rail around FSB: BCM
Lower: Any quality-brand (minimum Aero; would like Umbrella, but unlikely--GF's a huge Resident Evil fan, so UCWRG would add a "personal" touch)
Buffer/Stock Group: Geissele Super 42, with Brownells old-style CAR stock and green recoil pad
Grip: uncertain - Canadian issue has a battery compartment
Foregrip and rail mount: Cadex 622-000 green VFG, Cadex or GG&G handguard rail
LPK: one of the usual reputable brands
Ambi safety: any quality milspec
Ambi mag catch: Arms Unlimited (Norgon clone)

Also, does anybody out there have a good match for that weird shade of green our northern neighbors use on their furniture?

My half the set also has an unusual twist - since I can't use a rifle stock due to odd body shape and usually nestle stocks/braces into the crook of my elbow instead, I'm thinking to keep it Title 1 by using an SBM4 brace at the rear with an unpinned 14.5" URG as an "Other Title 1 Firearm"/so-called "megapistol." Is the juice worth the squeeze with this trade rather than "keep stock but extend barrel," and also am I correct in thinking that only SOCOM units get to play with SOPMOD toys and the most common version in-the-field is the RAS?

M4 part list:

URG: Colt or FN take-off, 14.5" barrel; KAC M4 RAS
Lower: Any quality-brand (minimum Aero)
Buffer/Brace Group: Geissele Super 42 or Vltor A5, with FDE SBM4 brace
Grip: uncertain - I like the feel of FAB AG43, so would prefer something similar but actually used in the field. Ergo?
Foregrip: Grip-Pod
LPK: one of the usual reputable brands
Ambi safety: any quality milspec
Ambi mag catch: Arms Unlimited (Norgon clone)


How much of a general-issue M4 gets FDE'ed in the field, and is there anything I'm missing on these two lists, or can anyone out there help fill in some of the blanks?

[Diamondback]

Refining the part list, and building it into a table...

First, a reference image of the gun I'm trying to replicate direct from Colt Canada.
http://www.coltcanada.com/images/c8a3-cc.png


ComponentM4C8A3
Upper Receiver GroupBCM unpinned 14.5 M4, no handguardBCM C8SFW, plastic handguard
Rail SystemsKAC M4 RASBCM Tri-Rail
Cadex CMR-418-01 handguard rail
Front SightKNS .052" Round FSPKNS .052" Round FSP
Rear BUISMatech 200-600muncertain--need recommendation
Bolt Carrier GroupToolcraft black-nitrideToolcraft black-nitride
Charging HandleMilspec with Badger 249-02 latchMilspec
Lower Receiver7075-T6 EPL, machined by myself7075-T6 EPL, machined by myself
Buffer TubePistol, without "sabertube" collarMilspec 6-position
Buffer SystemGeissele Super 42Geissele Super 42
Brace/StockSBM4 Brace, FDEBrownells CAR
Canadian-surplus green recoil pad or similar
Fire Control GroupALG QMSALG QMS
Safetymilspec ambimilspec ambi

Mag Catch
Arms Unlimited ambi
Arms Unlimited ambi

Gripundetermined ergoA2
ForegripGrip-Pod GPS-02Cadex 622-000 OD
OpticTrijicon ACOG or AimpointEoTech 552
Furniture FinishFDEKrylon 4296 Woodland Lt Green


Questions:

Anyone out there have a good match for Canadian Average Green, or should I just slap a coat of Olive Drab on and call it good?
Is there anything on this side of the border that matches the Diemaco/Colt Canada BUIS? I know CC slaps Troys on consumer-sale models, but that's not mil-issue.
Given that these are Range Irons that would not be meant for CQB, are pushbutton, easy-push or easy-pull takedown pins worth the convenience they offer?

[Jäger]

I am not a fine details expert on the C7/C8/C9 family, nor do I play one on the Internet. However, I have some familiarity with them.


Since the girlfriend's expressed an interest in shooting with me when visiting, I thought it might be a nice touch, instead of building up a set of perfectly matched M4's, to build hers as a Canadian C8 as a nod to her heritage. Do we have any C7/C8 experts around who can give me advice on this project? Right now, I'm thinking to go for "widest issued versions"--which as an aside means as much as I love that SOPMOD FSP URG's layout, the M4 is probably gonna be just a basic RAS. Are there any significant cosmetic differences between the C8SFW and C8A3 I need to be aware of?

If you're focused on "the most common versions" currently in the CAF, the C8's have been caught betwixt and between with the three program upgrades from the original C7/C8. Including the mid life crisis upgrades made by Regiments as they first deployed to A'stan i.e. the on the fly mods the PPCLI did with their weapons. Most Canadian Small Arms Instructors couldn't tell the difference between a C8SFW and C8A3. And they probably wouldn't care. The picture you have of the C8A3 is fairly accurate, minus the STANO kit usually found on those rifles overseas.

The C8A3 is/was more commonly seen with the Leitz C79 optical sight that is issue for the C7A2 as well. Fantastic glass, especially in low light light conditions. Originally had a lot of problems with a wandering zero due to poor planning on the mount portion of the sight, but the changes in the latest versions seem to have fixed that. Any surplused C79's that made it to the civilian market will probably have the original mount - as well as a tritium element in the tip of the aiming post that is dead. And it will probably cost around $2000... which will almost certainly make the Eotech look better and better all the time.

Reference the handguards, if you snoop around on the Internet, you'll find the Canadian Technical Data Packages for the 200+ design changes Canada made to the M16 they licensed. I found it on some obscure Canadian government bureaucracy website. Some very minor changes, some not so much. One of the changes has to do with the type of material used to make those handguards, which Diemaco called Fiberlite if my memory doesn't fail me. That had to do with extreme cold weather testing for the rifle, down to -70 or something like that.

Original furniture is occasionally available at the Canadiangunnutz website's buy and sell section. If you offer the magic amount of money for it, somebody will decide they don't actually need genuine Canadian furniture after all. If you go to their AR15 sub-forum, you'll find a lot of info on guys attempting to build replicas just as you are, so you should be able to see where they sourced the parts they used. I think a few people from Diemaco/Colt Canada actually hung around there answering technical questions, at least they did for a while. Canadian military will have a pebbled finish to the Fiberlite furniture.

A business that occasionally sources genuine Colt Canada military parts are these guys: http://www.nordicmarksman.com/C7A2-C8A3-CF-Green-Butt-Plate.html

They will certainly sell you the POS ambi charging handle that seems primarily designed to snag on any equipment on your chest that isn't perfectly smooth and without openings... a fair number of guys buy a charging handle of their choice and switch out the HookMaster when they draw their weapon from the QM. This is what you get when gun plumbers get involved in weapons design and the guys in combat arms who actually have to use the weapon get kicked to the curb. Which is why the eye relief of the C79 was such a problem before the collapsing buttstock on the C7A2 arrived, incidentally... and why they probably designed the HookMaster, because everybody without a giraffe length neck had to mount the C79 at the very back of the upper receiver to get proper eye relief - and where it overhung the charging handle and got in the way of grasping the charging handle.
http://www.nordicmarksman.com/C7A2-C8A3-CF-Ambi-Charging-Handle.html

One thing you don't mention is the barrel. It's hammer forged and 15.7" in length. Diemaco fired about a bazillion rounds through the barrel contour they were going to put on that rifle and determined that 15.7" was the magic number for greatest accuracy out of mass production barrels. Don't quote me on this, but I think the Brit MOD who was buying those for the SAS at the time funded all or some of the testing that was done to wring the best accuracy out of that barrel. So you could mount a 16" barrel and I doubt anyone will notice you're about .3" too long. Something like this would be a pretty close replica to the barrel with the Simon Sleeve (not planning on mounting a Canadian POS M203, are you?): http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-16-C8-SFW-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-c8-sfw-16.htm There may be others that are closer replicas... again, I'm not a details guy.

Your front sight should be round, not square, measuring .050". I think it was Rock River that originally offered an identical front sight... me likee.

The C8A3 has a shorter Triad than the C7A2 to accommodate the POS M203

Markings for the fire selector switch on the lower receiver would be different i.e. "S" and "R" and "Auto" with the automatic marking missing... I don't know how you would address that short of an 80% receiver and then a custom engraving job. If you did that, the world would be your oyster and it would look REALLY identical.

You're missing the short Cadex picatinny rail mount attached by way of the holes in the handguard, usually used to mount the Cadex folding pistol grip. Some Canadian troops mount the pistol grip, just as many don't.

Can't think of anything else at the moment. You'll find hours of details concerning your replica build up at Canadiangunnutz, from guys who actually are details experts. I think a member named KevinB over there is about as authoritative on all things C7/C8 as you could ask for.

[scottryan]

Refining the part list, and building it into a table...

First, a reference image of the gun I'm trying to replicate direct from Colt Canada.
http://www.coltcanada.com/images/c8a3-cc.png


ComponentM4C8A3
Upper Receiver GroupBCM unpinned 14.5 M4, no handguardBCM C8SFW, plastic handguard
Rail SystemsKAC M4 RASBCM Tri-Rail
Cadex or GG&G snap-on handguard rail
Front SightKNS .052" Square FSPKNS .052" Square FSP
Rear BUISMatech 200-600muncertain--need recommendation
Bolt Carrier GroupToolcraft black-nitrideToolcraft black-nitride
Charging HandleMilspec with Badger 249-02 latchMilspec
Lower Receiver7075-T6 EPL, machined by myself7075-T6 EPL, machined by myself
Buffer TubePistol, without "sabertube" collarMilspec 6-position
Buffer SystemGeissele Super 42Geissele Super 42
Brace/StockSBM4 Brace, FDEBrownells CAR
Canadian-surplus green recoil pad or similar
Fire Control GroupALG QMSALG QMS
Safetymilspec ambimilspec ambi

Mag Catch
Arms Unlimited ambi
Arms Unlimited ambi

Gripundetermined ergoA2
ForegripGrip-Pod GPS-02Cadex 622-000 OD
OpticTrijicon ACOG or AimpointEoTech 552
Furniture FinishFDE"Canadian Average Green"


Questions:

Anyone out there have a good match for Canadian Average Green, or should I just slap a coat of Olive Drab on and call it good?
Is there anything on this side of the border that matches the Diemaco/Colt Canada BUIS? I know CC slaps Troys on consumer-sale models, but that's not mil-issue.
Given that these are Range Irons that would not be meant for CQB, are pushbutton, easy-push or easy-pull takedown pins worth the convenience they offer?



What exactly are you trying to do? Most of those parts in that table are nowhere near correct for any US or Canadian Colt clone project.

[Diamondback]

Popping in an update now that both builds are in the Accruing Parts stage... Bold green parts are in-hand, bold yellow are enroute or require refinishing, bold red are temporarily or permanently unavailable with stand-ins in bold blue (in-hand stand-ins italicized). Stand-in parts are only meant to get things "close" until I can lay hands on better.


ComponentM4C8A3
Upper Receiver GroupDSA 14.7 Service SeriesBCM C8SFW
replace comp w/A2 flash hider
Furniture FinishFDECerakote H-189 Noveske Bazooka Green
Rail Systems/
Handguard/
Rail CoversKAC M4 RAS included with upper
Manta M4 cover kit, FDE6-hole skinny CAR handguard
BCM Tri-Rail
G&G airsoft clone (barf), Cerakoted for heat resistance
Cadex CMR-418-01 handguard rail
cut Magpul OD ladder-cover to fit tri-rail
Front SightStandard A2 Square PostBlitzkrieg Components .040" Round FSP
Rear BUISMatech 200-600mDiemaco fixed from an anonymous friend
Bolt Carrier GroupToolcraft black-nitrideToolcraft black-nitride
Charging HandleMilspec
Badger 249-02 latchMilspec
True North Arms "hook" latch (temp. not shipping to USA)
Lower ReceiverAero M4 CloneAtomic Engraving custom 80%
KG Gunkote #2500 Anodized True Black
Buffer AssemblyMilspec 6-position kitMilspec 6-position kit (thanks, Wigbones, on both!)
Diemaco single-slot and CAR lock ring from an anonymous friend
StockBCM Gunfighter, FDE OR
B5 Bravo, FDE OR
J&E SOPMOD, FDEM&A Parts or Retro Rifles CAR
Canadian-surplus green recoil pad
Warlord Tactical airsoft (ick) C8 buttpad, dyed
Fire Control GroupALG QMSALG QMS
Safetymilspec ambimilspec ambi
Mag CatchCDNN ambiCDNN ambi
Grip and
AccessoriesFAB Defense AG43, FDEA2, refinished green
Otis Grip-Kit
ForegripGrip-Pod GPS-02 OR
KAC BroomstickCadex 622-000 OD
OpticTrijicon ACOG OR
Aimpoint PROElcan M134 w/green C7A2 rubber cover OR
EoTech 552 OR
Aimpoint PRO
SlingBlue Force Gear VCAS-125-OA-CBCanadian-issue unavailable for import
mimic with old GI "silent web sling"?


Yes, I know some of these parts are crap, not by choice--sometimes you need to make do with what you can get until you can lay hands on better, not all of us have that nice little magic paper that lets us import any part we like from anywhere we like. Yes, there are parts of this that DO suck, but other than "hock a kidney, wait for a genuine Diemaco to come up on Armslist and pay through the ass when it does" I welcome any constructive criticism to help this Suck Less.

A note: While the KAC Broomstick is not "authorized" for USMC Annual Rifle Training configurations which I'm modeling the M4 after, it's on as it still sees a lot of field use.

[Sry0fcr]

It's been a year, do you still even have the same girlfriend? If so, how mad is she at you for dragging out her build? :jester: And honest question, does she have an interest in a military clone gun or is this an excuse to build one for yourself? :cool:

[Diamondback]

It's been a year, do you still even have the same girlfriend? If so, how mad is she at you for dragging out her build? :jester: And honest question, does she have an interest in a military clone gun or is this an excuse to build one for yourself? :cool:

Long story, we've been a Long Distance Relationship for almost ten years now--she's "behind enemy lines" and we both have aging parents to take care of, but we make the most of what time together we can get. Re "dragging out," this is FAST for one of my builds, she actually calls them "Gun Pregnancies" because I only build one a year and yet here we are "expecting twins."

Re interests, she's expressed an interest in shooting Service Rifle-type matches with me, which means you need something in a "service" configuration, so I sent her pics of the M4 and C8, along with M16A4 and C7, and it was a joint decision from there. (M4 woulda been easier, "just order two of everything," but she liked the idea of a nod to her Old Country along with the green color scheme--so "carbines first, long rifles after, 1 each US/Canadian in each pair" it is. When you hear a foty-five-year-old grown woman squee like a little girl over something, you know you've found a winner in her eyes... and if it's a gun you know you have a keeper. :) )